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Old 27th November 2012, 08:51 AM   #1
Limbo
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Enlightenment, Science, and the Cosmos

Enlightenment: Is Science Ready to Take it Seriously?

"I’m not given to making grand predictions, but in this case I can’t resist: the very real spiritual transformation at the heart of mysticism is about to explode into the secular mainstream, and the consequences may just revolutionize our scientific understanding of the mind.

[...]

For expediency’s sake, I’ll define enlightenment as a complex and multi-faceted process by which the mind comes to know – and over time rest more securely in – its own ground. As this happens, our habitual sense of being a separate and bounded self begins to fade. Ultimately, the person for whom this happens no longer feels themselves to be an autonomous entity looking out at an external world; rather, they feel themselves, more and more, to be an intimate part of that world’s humid expression, an unfolding natural process no different than anything else in nature. As a result, practitioners report a liberating sense of freedom, ease, spontaneity. The volume of self-referential thought often decreases, although, since enlightenment happens along a deepening continuum, they are still routinely trapped in old habits of dualistic thinking.

Despite the fact that this transformation has been painstakingly described in virtually every contemplative tradition – from Buddhism, Taoism and Hinduism through to the mystical branches of the Western Abrahamic religions – and is the central drama in the lives of thousands of lucid and intelligent human beings, here in the West there is zero mention of the phenomenon in any of our bastions of intellectual respectability. You’ll never read about spiritual enlightenment in a Malcolm Gladwell book, or the pages of The New York Review of Books. This is true even in most Western Buddhist books, where enlightenment may be mentioned as a general principle or orientation, but almost never as a tangible transformation that happens to real 21st-century human beings.

[...]

In the multidisciplinary world of consciousness studies, the buzzword is nonduality, a translation of Advaita (literally “not two”), an ancient branch of Hindu philosophy. I’ve presented at two ‘Toward a Science of Consciousness’ meetings, a terrific annual assembly of the biggest names in neuroscience and philosophy of mind, among them Antonio Damasio, David Chalmers, Wolf Singer, Susan Greenfield, Stuart Hameroff and others. For the past few years nonduality has been a popular subject of discussion. There is even a dedicated ‘Science and Nonduality’ conference - now in its fourth year – that features some of the same speakers, many of them offering straight-to-the-bone “Direct Path” instruction in books and DVDs and weekend workshops."

[...]


Science might be waking up to the fact that enlightenment is real!

Which means that sooner or later, JREF might have to wake up to that too. Or else become a bastion of rebellious scientism heretics.

For many people, a very real spiritual transformation is coming very soon...

...not through meditation or chanting or wishful thinking...

...but through the upcoming winter solstice.

Cosmic events can and do put people on a period of rapid and miraculous spiritual growth. Open up to the possibility and maybe you will be surprised.

Happy Holidays!
__________________
"Faith in what?" he asked himself, adrift in limbo.

"Faith in faith," he replied. "It isn't necessary to have something to believe in. It's only necessary to believe that somewhere there's something worthy of belief."

Last edited by Limbo; 27th November 2012 at 08:53 AM.
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Old 27th November 2012, 08:56 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
Enlightenment: Is Science Ready to Take it Seriously?
No.
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Old 27th November 2012, 09:05 AM   #3
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humid expression? human expression?

As for separateness and self-absorption:

Concentrating on (almost) anything will get you beyond that feeling of separateness: It could be math, science, art, or just cleaning the house.

We're all connected by ideas, by activities, by disciplines, by basic neural structure and many other things we have in common. However, each of us is separate.

After enlightenment, or a taste of it, the laundry.

Last edited by calebprime; 27th November 2012 at 09:06 AM.
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Old 27th November 2012, 09:10 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Limbo View Post

Science might be waking up to the fact that enlightenment is real!

Which means that sooner or later, JREF might have to wake up to that too. Or else become a bastion of rebellious scientism heretics.

For many people, a very real spiritual transformation is coming very soon...

...not through meditation or chanting or wishful thinking...

...but through the upcoming winter solstice.

Cosmic events can and do put people on a period of rapid and miraculous spiritual growth. Open up to the possibility and maybe you will be surprised.

Happy Holidays!
Transformation from what to what?

Care to make any testable predictions or are we not going to move past non-specific assertions that have nothing to back them up?
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Old 27th November 2012, 09:16 AM   #5
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Taoism is all about balance, not transformation.

Methinks someone has still failed to read the key texts of major religions before making claims about them.
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Old 27th November 2012, 09:17 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Limbo View Post

For many people, a very real spiritual transformation is coming very soon...

...not through meditation or chanting or wishful thinking...

...but through the upcoming winter solstice.
No. How are things on the dark side of the Moon? Been to any dances there recently?
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Old 27th November 2012, 10:37 AM   #7
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This Winter Solstice specifically? Like, 2012 and all that?
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Old 27th November 2012, 10:39 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
Enlightenment: Is Science Ready to Take it Seriously?

"I’m not given to making grand predictions, but in this case I can’t resist: the very real spiritual transformation at the heart of mysticism is about to explode into the secular mainstream, and the consequences may just revolutionize our scientific understanding of the mind.

[...]

For expediency’s sake, I’ll define enlightenment as a complex and multi-faceted process by which the mind comes to know – and over time rest more securely in – its own ground. As this happens, our habitual sense of being a separate and bounded self begins to fade. Ultimately, the person for whom this happens no longer feels themselves to be an autonomous entity looking out at an external world; rather, they feel themselves, more and more, to be an intimate part of that world’s humid expression, an unfolding natural process no different than anything else in nature. As a result, practitioners report a liberating sense of freedom, ease, spontaneity. The volume of self-referential thought often decreases, although, since enlightenment happens along a deepening continuum, they are still routinely trapped in old habits of dualistic thinking.

Despite the fact that this transformation has been painstakingly described in virtually every contemplative tradition – from Buddhism, Taoism and Hinduism through to the mystical branches of the Western Abrahamic religions – and is the central drama in the lives of thousands of lucid and intelligent human beings, here in the West there is zero mention of the phenomenon in any of our bastions of intellectual respectability. You’ll never read about spiritual enlightenment in a Malcolm Gladwell book, or the pages of The New York Review of Books. This is true even in most Western Buddhist books, where enlightenment may be mentioned as a general principle or orientation, but almost never as a tangible transformation that happens to real 21st-century human beings.

[...]

In the multidisciplinary world of consciousness studies, the buzzword is nonduality, a translation of Advaita (literally “not two”), an ancient branch of Hindu philosophy. I’ve presented at two ‘Toward a Science of Consciousness’ meetings, a terrific annual assembly of the biggest names in neuroscience and philosophy of mind, among them Antonio Damasio, David Chalmers, Wolf Singer, Susan Greenfield, Stuart Hameroff and others. For the past few years nonduality has been a popular subject of discussion. There is even a dedicated ‘Science and Nonduality’ conference - now in its fourth year – that features some of the same speakers, many of them offering straight-to-the-bone “Direct Path” instruction in books and DVDs and weekend workshops."

[...]


Science might be waking up to the fact that enlightenment is real!

Which means that sooner or later, JREF might have to wake up to that too. Or else become a bastion of rebellious scientism heretics.

For many people, a very real spiritual transformation is coming very soon...

...not through meditation or chanting or wishful thinking...

...but through the upcoming winter solstice.

Cosmic events can and do put people on a period of rapid and miraculous spiritual growth. Open up to the possibility and maybe you will be surprised.

Happy Holidays!

Have an egg nog while you wait for this transformation, this revolution. You might want to buy several cartons as I fear the wait may be a bit longer than you hope.
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Old 27th November 2012, 10:46 AM   #9
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Some quotes from the link that the OP did not include:

"I have stopped quibbling. People I’ve known for years tell me about their enlightenment experiences and I believe them. I believe them because my curiosity about what may be happening in the mind is greater than my allegiance to an outdated and uninformed scientific consensus. Western psychology is still outgrowing a reactive skepticism towards the subjective anecdote that it inherited from behaviorism."

What is it about psychologists? I still kind of grieve that they're not more sensible. For some reason I expect them to be.
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Old 27th November 2012, 01:06 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
For many people, a very real spiritual transformation is coming very soon...
This is the dawning of the Age of Aquarius, the Age of Aquarius, Aquarius, Aquarius.
Harmony and understanding. Sympathy and trust, etc.
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Old 27th November 2012, 01:13 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Limbo View Post

Cosmic events can and do put people on a period of rapid and miraculous spiritual growth. Open up to the possibility and maybe you will be surprised.
OK, I'm open to the possibility. Do have evidence that cosmic events put people on a period of rapid spiritual growth?
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Old 27th November 2012, 01:38 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by zeggman View Post
This is the dawning of the Age of Aquarius, the Age of Aquarius, Aquarius, Aquarius.
Harmony and understanding. Sympathy and trust, etc.

Indeed music can help! Do you guys like Bach?

Bach to the Future

“Bach’s incomparably forceful expression, his urge to pile up structures of unheard-of dimensions in densest polyphonic weaving and a final unification, are all typical of the closing Baroque in his country. And more so is his mystic absorption in things transcending reason. Through the often feeble, pompous, redundant words of contemporary Protestant poetry, he looked into the last, unutterable depths of religious awareness. He gave expression to religious wisdom at the eleventh hour, when the rationalism of the dawning Enlightenment was blocking its way.” -Curt Sachs
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"Faith in faith," he replied. "It isn't necessary to have something to believe in. It's only necessary to believe that somewhere there's something worthy of belief."
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Old 27th November 2012, 01:49 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Doubt View Post
Transformation from what to what?

From unenlightened to enlightened. From Clark Kent to Superman. From Thomas Anderson to Neo. From farmer to Jedi. Pick a monomyth metaphor...they are all mere fingers pointing to the moon.

Quote:
Care to make any testable predictions or are we not going to move past non-specific assertions that have nothing to back them up?

I predict that if you a) take the right psychological approach to the question of enlightenment and b) maybe make a few lifestyle changes, then you can experience a 'spiritual transformation' yourself.
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"Faith in what?" he asked himself, adrift in limbo.

"Faith in faith," he replied. "It isn't necessary to have something to believe in. It's only necessary to believe that somewhere there's something worthy of belief."

Last edited by Limbo; 27th November 2012 at 01:51 PM.
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Old 27th November 2012, 01:56 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
I predict that if you a) take the right psychological approach to the question of enlightenment and b) maybe make a few lifestyle changes, then you can experience a 'spiritual transformation' yourself.
So no testable predictions then.

Here is the thing. The solstice is real. We know where and when it will happen with a high degree of certainty. If this were to have some sort of effect on conciseness then there should be a mechanism for it. So what would it be gravity? The amount of daylight/darkness?

If you cannot connect this to a property of the solstice and just make it an arbitrary linkage, then you really don't have anything. Try again.
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Old 27th November 2012, 02:12 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Doubt View Post
So no testable predictions then.

You are the testable prediction. You have to do it yourself. You have to take control of your mind and create the psychological and physical conditions that allow enlightenment to take root and grow in you. The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
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"Faith in what?" he asked himself, adrift in limbo.

"Faith in faith," he replied. "It isn't necessary to have something to believe in. It's only necessary to believe that somewhere there's something worthy of belief."
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Old 27th November 2012, 02:20 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
You are the testable prediction. You have to do it yourself. You have to take control of your mind and create the psychological and physical conditions that allow enlightenment to take root and grow in you. The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
Everything you are writing looks like a re-tread of the harmonic convergence. I would expect the same results.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_Convergence
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Old 27th November 2012, 02:40 PM   #17
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Wasn't there a solstice last year?
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Old 27th November 2012, 02:52 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
Cosmic events can and do put people on a period of rapid and miraculous spiritual growth. Open up to the possibility and maybe you will be surprised.
Isn't a "cosmic event" any event that happens in the cosmos?

Anyway, be sure to let us know when this particular cosmic event happens. Is it supposed to happen on December 21, or just sometime near that date?
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Old 27th November 2012, 02:53 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
Enlightenment: Is Science Ready to Take it Seriously?

"I’m not given to making grand predictions, but in this case I can’t resist: the very real spiritual transformation at the heart of mysticism is about to explode into the secular mainstream, and the consequences may just revolutionize our scientific understanding of the mind.

[...]

For expediency’s sake, I’ll define enlightenment as a complex and multi-faceted process by which the mind comes to know – and over time rest more securely in – its own ground. As this happens, our habitual sense of being a separate and bounded self begins to fade. Ultimately, the person for whom this happens no longer feels themselves to be an autonomous entity looking out at an external world; rather, they feel themselves, more and more, to be an intimate part of that world’s humid expression, an unfolding natural process no different than anything else in nature. As a result, practitioners report a liberating sense of freedom, ease, spontaneity. The volume of self-referential thought often decreases, although, since enlightenment happens along a deepening continuum, they are still routinely trapped in old habits of dualistic thinking.

Despite the fact that this transformation has been painstakingly described in virtually every contemplative tradition – from Buddhism, Taoism and Hinduism through to the mystical branches of the Western Abrahamic religions – and is the central drama in the lives of thousands of lucid and intelligent human beings, here in the West there is zero mention of the phenomenon in any of our bastions of intellectual respectability. You’ll never read about spiritual enlightenment in a Malcolm Gladwell book, or the pages of The New York Review of Books. This is true even in most Western Buddhist books, where enlightenment may be mentioned as a general principle or orientation, but almost never as a tangible transformation that happens to real 21st-century human beings.

[...]

In the multidisciplinary world of consciousness studies, the buzzword is nonduality, a translation of Advaita (literally “not two”), an ancient branch of Hindu philosophy. I’ve presented at two ‘Toward a Science of Consciousness’ meetings, a terrific annual assembly of the biggest names in neuroscience and philosophy of mind, among them Antonio Damasio, David Chalmers, Wolf Singer, Susan Greenfield, Stuart Hameroff and others. For the past few years nonduality has been a popular subject of discussion. There is even a dedicated ‘Science and Nonduality’ conference - now in its fourth year – that features some of the same speakers, many of them offering straight-to-the-bone “Direct Path” instruction in books and DVDs and weekend workshops."

[...]


Science might be waking up to the fact that enlightenment is real!

Which means that sooner or later, JREF might have to wake up to that too. Or else become a bastion of rebellious scientism heretics.

For many people, a very real spiritual transformation is coming very soon...

...not through meditation or chanting or wishful thinking...

...but through the upcoming winter solstice.

Cosmic events can and do put people on a period of rapid and miraculous spiritual growth. Open up to the possibility and maybe you will be surprised.

Happy Holidays!
Is this going to hurt?
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Old 27th November 2012, 02:58 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
You are the testable prediction. You have to do it yourself. You have to take control of your mind and create the psychological and physical conditions that allow enlightenment to take root and grow in you. The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
Enlightenment is like a tapeworm?
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Old 27th November 2012, 02:59 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
I predict that if you a) take the right psychological approach to the question of enlightenment and b) maybe make a few lifestyle changes, then you can experience a 'spiritual transformation' yourself.
I think this may be true. Although, fortunately, it's probably curable.
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Old 27th November 2012, 04:30 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Spockette View Post
What is it about psychologists? I still kind of grieve that they're not more sensible. For some reason I expect them to be.
Psychology is one of the very best arguments that Reason alone doesn't get you squat. The field has good, sciencey intentions (the same way Colbert is "truthy"), but the lack of falsifiability means the kind of people who know they are right have no good way to recognize when they're horribly, utterly wrong.
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Old 27th November 2012, 06:20 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
You are the testable prediction. You have to do it yourself. You have to take control of your mind and create the psychological and physical conditions that allow enlightenment to take root and grow in you. The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
I just gave it a shot, didn't work.
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Old 27th November 2012, 06:52 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by zeggman View Post
This is the dawning of the Age of Aquarius, the Age of Aquarius, Aquarius, Aquarius.
Harmony and understanding. Sympathy and trust, etc.
Don't leave out the random buggery!!!!!
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Old 27th November 2012, 06:53 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
OK, I'm open to the possibility. Do have evidence that cosmic events put people on a period of rapid spiritual growth?
That would be NO......
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Old 27th November 2012, 06:55 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by zeggman View Post
Wasn't there a solstice last year?
two of 'em - and one already this year.
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Old 27th November 2012, 07:03 PM   #27
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I notice that Limbo won't tell me if he's been dancing on the Moon again. Or taking a stroll inside a mountain with a goddess (name unknown).
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Old 27th November 2012, 08:18 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by stokes234 View Post
I just gave it a shot, didn't work.

Would you elaborate?
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"Faith in faith," he replied. "It isn't necessary to have something to believe in. It's only necessary to believe that somewhere there's something worthy of belief."
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Old 27th November 2012, 08:34 PM   #29
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I much prefer The Enlightenment, thanks.
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Old 28th November 2012, 02:33 AM   #30
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I prefer Enlightenment, and imlib is pretty useful.
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Old 28th November 2012, 02:56 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
Indeed music can help! Do you guys like Bach?
Yes.
Here's Bach's take on transformation.
Via death and faith in Our Saviour:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE




Originally Posted by Doubt View Post
Everything you are writing looks like a re-tread of the harmonic convergence. I would expect the same results.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_Convergence
That's also my reaction.
All we need now are offers of a high priced crystal du jour to clutch as we await the moment.

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Psychology is one of the very best arguments that Reason alone doesn't get you squat. The field has good, sciencey intentions (the same way Colbert is "truthy"), but the lack of falsifiability means the kind of people who know they are right have no good way to recognize when they're horribly, utterly wrong.
Ouch.
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Old 28th November 2012, 03:36 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
Taoism is all about balance, not transformation.

Methinks someone has still failed to read the key texts of major religions before making claims about them.
Are you suggesting Warren would ramble on about things he doesn't understand in Siegel's vanity rag?

Originally Posted by zeggman View Post
Wasn't there a solstice last year?
There was one in June.
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Old 28th November 2012, 03:51 AM   #33
Matt the Poet
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Quote:
…rather, they feel themselves, more and more, to be an intimate part of that world’s humid expression, an unfolding natural process no different than anything else in nature.
That’s because they are – a basic fact that contemplation of the observable scientific evidence makes far, far more clear and obvious than anything other method.

It’s true, of course, that the trick is to find a way to experience that fact subjectively. And I suppose that contemplating the ceaseless relative movement of the earth and the sun as part of the great dance of gravity does to our daily experience as conscious objects on its surface might be a good way to do this. I’ll even admit that a point such as a solstice, where our personal, subjective sense of the sun’s movement happens to tell us precisely where we are in the dance might well be a good time to do this.

I’m not sure what claiming that something magical is going on adds to the experience – indeed, it actively damages it and turns it into something exclusive. You’re just dressing up simple, direct awareness of what’s actually, you know, happening as obscure, wibbly-wobbly stuff going on just past the doors of perception that you have to be in some kind of special head-space to ‘get’.
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Old 28th November 2012, 04:12 AM   #34
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About the must-have crystal for the 21 December do-
I should have known, silly me!

Crystal skulls, of course.
http://www.crystalskulls.com/2012.html

ETA:
Where I am, the solstice will be at precisely 12:12 CET.
Spooky, nicht wahr?

Last edited by pakeha; 28th November 2012 at 04:22 AM.
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Old 28th November 2012, 04:13 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
You are the testable prediction.

Sorry, that would appear to be unfalsifiable. Try again.
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Old 28th November 2012, 05:19 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
[i]"I’m not given to making grand predictions, but in this case I can’t resist: the very real spiritual transformation at the heart of mysticism is about to explode into the secular mainstream, and the consequences may just revolutionize our scientific understanding of the mind.
Spiritual, adj: A word used to indicate that the speaker or writer stopped bothering to think at this point.
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Old 28th November 2012, 06:29 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
[...]to be an intimate part of that world’s humid expression, an unfolding natural process no different than anything else in nature. As a result, practitioners report a liberating sense of freedom, ease, spontaneity.
Wait, what? Since when is everything in nature free and spontaneous? Does this coffee cup freely and spontaneously decide to go down when I let go of it? Does the Earth just decide to keep revolving around the Sun?
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Old 28th November 2012, 06:40 AM   #38
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I find meme theory to be a much more parsimonious theory of religion and its twin, politics, with much greater explanatory and even predictive power. Like programming robots, memes are mental positions which bind you to other people in attempts to seize power and foist said memes on other people, either by force and/or as background societal noise.
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Old 28th November 2012, 07:07 AM   #39
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Musashi claimed to have attained enlightenment after brutally chopping up some 60 opponents in duels.... He then retired to a life of contemplation, poetry, and craftsmanship.

Not a route that would be in much favor today....
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Old 28th November 2012, 07:16 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by PixyMisa View Post
Spiritual, adj: A word used to indicate that the speaker or writer stopped bothering to think at this point.
Dancing on the dark side of the Moon can affect the brain.
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