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24th November 2012, 11:13 PM | #681 |
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25th November 2012, 05:49 AM | #682 |
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25th November 2012, 05:50 AM | #683 |
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25th November 2012, 05:51 AM | #684 |
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25th November 2012, 05:55 AM | #685 |
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25th November 2012, 08:38 AM | #686 |
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25th November 2012, 12:11 PM | #687 |
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25th November 2012, 02:32 PM | #688 |
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Maybe the fact that it's illegal, but it still happens? Maybe the fact that it's been going on for Thousands of years? Maybe because we are dealing with a subset of the population that is so wrapped up in their culture that they think killing a child is preferable to having a child who has a pre-marital sex life.
When have sanctions ever succeeded in changing a cultural practice? Did it work for slavery in the US? Did it work for Apartheidt in South Africa? |
25th November 2012, 04:46 PM | #689 |
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I can't say much about slavery in the U.S., which, of course was not an ancient practice and to which there was a lot of internal opposition. However, I suspect that world opinion did indeed influence South Africa.
Just because something's been going on for thousands of years doesn't mean we can't change it. Remember that the industrial revolution changed society radically in a very short time. |
25th November 2012, 05:00 PM | #690 |
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25th November 2012, 08:58 PM | #691 |
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My understanding is that it they were very influential. I'm pretty sure both examples were discussed upthread -- the British Navy singlehandedly enforcing the Atlantic Slave Trade Ban was given as an example of an older style that is less likely to be used now.
The trade and investment sanctions that was used against South Africa (because of Apartheid) by many countries, businesses and individuals was given as an example of that also worked, and as an approach more likely to be used in these times. ETA: Ah, I missed TC's post -- still leaving mine up! :-) |
25th November 2012, 09:13 PM | #692 |
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Glad you brought up the idea of complicity. It does make a difference with whom we trade with and give aid to -- especially in countries like Afghanistan where less than half of the population is using violence and other non-democratic means of terrorizing and repressing the rest of the population. If, through our government foreign policies and other actions, we make help make the repressive forces in a society wealthier and more powerful, then we are also helping to enslave people and rob them of their freedoms.
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26th November 2012, 03:13 AM | #693 |
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26th November 2012, 04:34 AM | #694 |
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Absolutely. Private sector development, economic support etc...
I'm not sure anyone is advocating much different to this. The question, is are we willing as a society to spend say... 40 years and a squillion dollars to effect this change? I daresay, we probably aren't. Nor should we. That said - I don't think we can ethically just turn a blind eye and allow women to be 'honor killed', or any other of a myriad of unacceptable social behaviours that take place in Afg/Pak. It is a balancing act. And - isn't it 'cultural imperialism' to try the soft-sell approach by fostering economic improvement, just the same way that taking a strong-arm approach is equally 'cultural imperialism'? It is a kinder, gentler delivery mechanism, but its still imposing our beliefs elsewhere. |
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26th November 2012, 04:35 AM | #695 |
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26th November 2012, 04:37 AM | #696 |
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26th November 2012, 06:48 AM | #697 |
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26th November 2012, 12:11 PM | #698 |
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26th November 2012, 12:39 PM | #699 |
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Maybe, but then again the White South Africans weren't that culturally dissimilar to us, and there was an appetite for change, as has also been pointed out earlier. Plus, White South Africans aren't likely to hijack planes and fly them into iconic Western landmarks, killing thousands in retaliation...
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26th November 2012, 04:47 PM | #700 |
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It seems to me we have two basic choices:
1) Ignore the suffering inflicted by such groups as the Taliban, Al Qaeda and those who perpetrate honor killings. 2) Do something about these groups. We already agree that we cannot force societies to change be way of military force, although military force might be effective against military wings of organizations like Al Qaeda. That leaves such actions as education - particularly of women, raising their standard of living, making foreign aid conditional, sanctions and other pressures. I can see no reason to refrain from doing any of these. |
27th November 2012, 01:21 AM | #701 |
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I agree to extent with '2', but with the caveat 'only if our assistance is required'.
You also use the word 'groups'; these are not groups, but entire cultures (or AN entire culture). It's easier to change the mindset of a small group as opposed to a vast culture spread out across many countries. As has already been pointed out, Honour Killing is already illegal in most of the countries that practice it, to a varying degree. The best you could hope for would be to assist those who want change into pressuring for tougher sentences, and providing them with the ability to educate their people. |
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27th November 2012, 01:21 PM | #702 |
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In many cases, the sentences for such murders are very light, often only amounting to two months in jail. However, here is a hopeful sign (from the article):
Five members of a Dehli family have been sentenced to death for killing a young couple in 2010, the BBC reports. The parents, uncle, aunt and cousin of a teenage girl named Asha were arrested the day after they fatally beat and tortured Asha and her young lover, Yogesh, for attempting to elope. The family opposed the union because Yogesh and Asha were from different castes. “It can be safely concluded that the prosecution has been able to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the accused persons had caused the death of the victims with the common intention after giving them merciless beatings by tying them with rope and thereafter electrocuting them on various parts of their body,” Additional Sessions Judge Ramesh Kumar said, according to the BBC. The incident was described as an “honor killing,” hundreds of which occur in India each year. Last year, in an attempt to curb the practice, India’s Supreme Court ruled that honor killings are a capital offense. |
27th November 2012, 01:39 PM | #703 |
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28th November 2012, 11:44 AM | #704 |
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28th November 2012, 12:14 PM | #705 |
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If you wish. Otherwise I'm available to discus this.
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28th November 2012, 02:00 PM | #706 |
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28th November 2012, 02:11 PM | #707 |
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