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8th November 2012, 05:35 AM | #81 |
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yes, but HOW do they propose to stop it?
Yes - by western standards. Many Muslims see what we do as much worse. Go figure. I'm vaguely aware of that... Yes, it is very clearly different to us. To many of them both an alleged insult to their Prophet and a daughter bringing shame upon their family are worth taking a life over. Go figure. OK... so why don't we leave the Middle Eastern cultures alone and let THEM sort their own internal cultural problems out? Obviously you'd prefer they sorted out the ones that you don't like first, not the ones that they themselves consider a problem? |
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8th November 2012, 05:40 AM | #82 |
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Read up on their campaigns, starting with the links I provided.
What ever faults we have in our culture, many of which they happily protest and riot about, they are nothing compared to honour killings, no matter what spin you try and put on it. |
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8th November 2012, 05:59 AM | #83 |
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Oh FSM, you really don't get this do you? I'm not trying to put a spin on anything - I'm stating a FACT.
You are looking at this with Western values - of course it is abhorrent to us - however to some of the Islamic faith in the Middle East, our way of life is totally repulsive to them, and killing one of their own children to satisfy honour is absolutely the right thing for them to do. You've already given examples yourself which support Honour Killings being a cultural norm. If it were the other way around, you'd probably be saying "It doesn't matter what spin you try and put on it - a woman out in public drinking alcohol and wearing a bikini around men is ABSOLUTELY worse than killing for the sake of family honour!" What part of this don't you understand? |
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8th November 2012, 06:11 AM | #84 |
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And that would be wrong of course. By the factor of a number of centuries.
Nothing wrong with dragging people a few centuries forward; if American Evangelicals can be excoriated for their retrograde behavior, so can honor killers, and battery acid splashers. |
8th November 2012, 06:18 AM | #85 |
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8th November 2012, 06:36 AM | #86 |
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8th November 2012, 06:39 AM | #87 |
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8th November 2012, 07:15 AM | #88 |
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Human empathy. Over thousands of years of social interaction. Now manifested in a culture that is actively attempting to limit human suffering, needless pain, and pointless murder. And sometimes pointing out why such things are bad.
I don't know what sort of gotcha moment you're looking for in this thread, but if you're hoping to find some sort of contradiction, well, that's the human condition. Ask Whitman. |
8th November 2012, 07:20 AM | #89 |
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8th November 2012, 07:26 AM | #90 |
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8th November 2012, 07:29 AM | #91 |
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8th November 2012, 07:45 AM | #92 |
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Look, just assume he's speaking from a generic Western viewpoint and get on with it already.
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8th November 2012, 07:49 AM | #93 |
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8th November 2012, 07:58 AM | #94 |
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So you're having trouble understanding that someone raised in a totally different culture to yours, with completely different values and standards handed down through generations might not see anything wrong with Honour Killing? That just because YOU think it's a bad thing, they should as well?
One man's meat is another man's poison, and all that... |
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8th November 2012, 08:04 AM | #95 |
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Honor murders are murders. As the Klan (and others) lynching blacks is murder. As is witch burning today in Africa.
Different cultures with different standards all committing murder. Sorry if these backwards cultures are dragged into modernity. I feel all insenstive and ****. |
8th November 2012, 08:09 AM | #96 |
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I understand all of it. I am saying it is wrong and we are right to support those people in their culture who are campaigning against honour killing.
Have you noticed that there are women in those cultures who think honour killing is wrong and are trying to stop it? Have you noticed those who do honour kill do get punished and sent to prison at least in some cases? It is not as if those cultures are universally for honour killing. |
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8th November 2012, 08:16 AM | #97 |
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Of course it's murder, by western standards. It may even be murder by certain Middle East standards, but they may be a bit more 'understanding' about the circumstances.
Brilliant. And people are shocked that so many Middle Eastern cultures are extremely happy to see westerners killed by hijacked planes, suicide bombs or just plain old beheadings. "Let's just dive in and drag the fuzzy-wuzzies screaming and kicking into the light of the modern age, because they're not living how we think they should!" I'm assuming you'd be quite understanding if groups of Middle East countries imposed oil sanctions on the West until we adopted Sharia Law, or Islamic values and standards? It would be in our best interests, surely? |
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8th November 2012, 08:20 AM | #98 |
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8th November 2012, 08:20 AM | #99 |
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It is wrong by our standards, yes. Why do these people need our help campaigning?
I have and I wish them the best of luck. I have noticed, yes; and I have also said that not all Middle Eastern cultures support Honour Killing. What was your point? |
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8th November 2012, 08:22 AM | #100 |
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8th November 2012, 08:25 AM | #101 |
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As far as I am concerned those who favour honour killings fail the primary test for all actions, the golden rule of how would like it if it was done to you?
I would have less of a problem if the honour killing was of the son who raped his sister, as at least then you are punishing the guilty party. But to punish the victim? That is so barbaric I have no problem justifying interfering in their culture to support campaigns to stop it. I also have no problem making those with that culture who move to Scotland understand that it will not be accepted under any circumstances. I also say no matter what they claim about our culture, it is no where near as barbaric as theirs and it does not fail the golden rule. I they imposed oil sanctions to get us to establish Sharia law I would impose sanctions back on them and not sell them any arms and seize all their bank accounts and assets in this country. |
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8th November 2012, 08:28 AM | #102 |
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8th November 2012, 08:31 AM | #103 |
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8th November 2012, 08:31 AM | #104 |
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You're goddamned right it was! It was an internal American problem which the Americans sorted out when it became culturally unacceptable to the vast majority of Americans.
Yes it is the correct thing for the relevant African Government/Leaders to do when burning witches becomes culturally unacceptable. It certainly will be the correct thing for the relevant Pakistani/Middle Eastern Government to do. |
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8th November 2012, 08:37 AM | #105 |
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Correct. A very Christian ethos.
I agree with the first part. Once again though, you judge it to be barbaric by Western standards - and I agree - but clearly they DON'T. I agree - you move to Scotland and you obey the law of the land, or face the full consequences. This is what you're not getting; this is YOUR point of view; one which they DO NOT share. To THEM, YOUR ways are barbaric. So you'd be unhappy if they tried to impose their values and standards on you. Got it. |
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8th November 2012, 08:40 AM | #106 |
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8th November 2012, 08:41 AM | #107 |
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8th November 2012, 08:47 AM | #108 |
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Counterproductive to myself respecting their culture, of course. What did you expect, that I would launch a one-man invasion as some kind of Persian Batman, righting wrongs and talking in a hoarse voice?
[ETA] WHO WERE YOU LOOKING AT?! On a less personal note, counterproductive to Pakistan's international dealings. They are part of the UN, which does have very firm views on these things, even if they only action it'll ever take is a sternly-worded reprimand. |
8th November 2012, 08:52 AM | #109 |
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OK. I wouldn't expect you to respect a culture that condones - or treats lightly - such a thing, and neither do I.
I wasn't expecting that at all, no - but now you mention it, I can't think of anything else! I would PAY to see that film. Indeed. It is up to the Pakistani Government to drive change internally. Change generally has to come from within or it will be seriously resented otherwise. |
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8th November 2012, 08:58 AM | #110 |
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There are organisations in Pakistan (and other affected countries) fighting against "honour" killings, and these should be supported as much as possible.
http://www.af.org.pk/mainpage.htm http://afpak.foreignpolicy.com/posts...fense_of_honor |
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8th November 2012, 09:03 AM | #111 |
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8th November 2012, 09:08 AM | #112 |
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I had a long-ass post the forum ate, and I ain't about to retype it, so let me summarize: I disagree. They resent Western influence now for good reason: any pretense we had to being the good guys was traded for realpolitik a long time ago. This can be changed, but it'll be an uphill battle of overthrowing one tyrant just to let the people elect another, until they realize that Western-looking governments are not necessarily corruption-riddled puppet states.
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8th November 2012, 09:16 AM | #113 |
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I think any change brought on by the outside influence of a Western Government will be resented and rejected by those culturally 'hardcore' and backward enough to think 'Honour Killing' is a viable solution to anything. I'd be willing to bet that the same cultures that produce people willing to commit suicide for 'the cause' and receive a reward in heaven would think NOTHING of 20 years in jail in order to keep the honour of their family name.
We in the West greatly underestimate - or simply cannot comprehend - how fanatical these people can be about certain aspects of their culture, I think. |
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8th November 2012, 09:18 AM | #114 |
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8th November 2012, 09:22 AM | #115 |
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8th November 2012, 09:24 AM | #116 |
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There is likely to be an increase in the number of honor killings in the short term as Middle Eastern countries shift into western economic systems. As objective conditions change, familial and community structures change. Those in formerly privileged positions will become less powerful and less important. There will be reactionary responses to those changes.
Someone here suggested that dragging the Klan into the 20th century was the proper response. And while that is true, it wasn't the Chinese or the Italians who came from overseas to do it, it was done by Americans, and many of them southerners. The same is true of the Mid East. They will be dragged into the new cultural norm by themselves. Efforts to impose your values on me will generally result in my further entrenchment of my values. The Crusades didn't actually work. Sending in the Marines to "liberate" the women of the Mid East is likely to have about the same level of success. |
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8th November 2012, 09:31 AM | #117 |
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8th November 2012, 09:39 AM | #118 |
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We get it, you just don't like our response.
It's not that I don't understand, it's that your position fluctuates between, it's not OK but what can anyone do short of another war, and it's OK because it's their culture, we shouldn't judge by our standards. So which is it, OK by a different but legitimate cultural value, or not OK but you see no reason to interfere, or benefit in doing so? Regardless, I don't agree with either of your premises. Some things are not OK on the basis of it just being another culture: child slavery, severe oppression of women, murder for superstitious or cultural beliefs, disfigurement including amputations as punishment, torture, political imprisonment, child abuse, elder abuse, abuse of the disabled, abuse of the the mentally ill, rape, genocide.... Those are all beyond my moral limits regardless of my respect for cultural differences. |
8th November 2012, 09:43 AM | #119 |
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8th November 2012, 09:52 AM | #120 |
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No, I was addressing Nessie, and I genuinely didn't think he understood my position. Are you generally in the habit of telling people what they think, or am I just lucky?
That's great - I don't remember asking you if you understood though. No. That's not my position. Nor is this. When have I said at any time that 'it' is 'OK'? 'It' being 'Honour Killings'. Neither. My position is, 'It' is not 'OK', but we should not drive change, rather support change from within. Neither do I, because they weren't mine. I'm not OK with any of these things either. Neither would I be OK with forcing cultural change on any society practicing any of these things. I would potentially be OK with supporting cultural change within a society where many people were calling for it. Tell me, you know certain primitive tribes practice ritual mutilation on young men/boys as part of a 'Rite of Manhood' ceremony - it's quite horrific - how do you feel about that? |
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