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12th November 2012, 02:25 AM | #281 |
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12th November 2012, 09:21 AM | #282 |
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So be patient, I'm busy 14/7 in Oct/Nov giving flu shots. I've been looking through the dozen threads we've already spent on this topic to find the best citations I've already posted.
Here's a couple you can search yourself, if you just can't wait: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...ution+morality http://www.internationalskeptics.com...ution+morality http://www.internationalskeptics.com...ution+morality http://www.internationalskeptics.com...ution+morality |
12th November 2012, 09:50 AM | #283 |
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12th November 2012, 10:03 AM | #284 |
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It's rather easy really. We can look at any number of measures of human fulfillment (education; happiness surveys; data on children's fears, hopes, security index) and then assess which culture is doing better on the scales. All that's needed are objective facts about the safety and satisfaction of members of a culture. The only difficulty lies in determining where the cultural factors are the cause of lack of fulfillment.
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12th November 2012, 10:14 AM | #285 |
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12th November 2012, 11:39 AM | #286 |
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12th November 2012, 12:33 PM | #287 |
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12th November 2012, 12:42 PM | #288 |
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12th November 2012, 01:28 PM | #289 |
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12th November 2012, 02:16 PM | #290 |
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There is certainly an instinct to love and protect your off spring. That surely must be unlearned to want to kill them.
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12th November 2012, 03:09 PM | #291 |
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But probably not within the US states that ultimately decided to try to secede from the Union. At least not among the people with the political power.
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Pakistani Women's Human Rights Organization Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan (RAWA) There is a history of women enjoying better civil rights in Afghanistan and Iran in the not too distant past, but ultimately losing it for reasons beyond the scope of this thread. And also, frankly, beyond the time I have free this week to refresh my memory. But the information is easily available on the net if you would like to look into it for yourself.
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Honor killing is really more about power. You might recall that Europe had a period of "witch burnings" which was also about power at the time. Studies of the time showed that people who were likely to be accused and judged guilty tended to not have friends among the politically well connected. They were often older women (sometimes men) who had inherited just enough property to make them of interest to greedy people who wanted an excuse to seize it, but not enough property to enable them to hire their own private guards to keep it. They also tended to be people who were a little bit too independent minded for the political and church leaders liking. I'm going to have to take time off from JREF for a little while and catch up on real life obligations. Just want to add that if you are seriously interested in finding out more about how people are hard wired to have certain values you can try googling "sense of fairness". You'll get a lot of hits, including links to scientific studies. |
12th November 2012, 06:31 PM | #292 |
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There's a tendency to see the Islamic world as a monolithic bloc. It most certainly isn't. The tragedy of Iran is something that keeps happening - brutal secular repression is replaced with a religious repression that has far more impact on people's lives. Women in Iran lived far freer and more modern lifestyles than their Arab neighbours, but when the Shah was overthrown they lost their rights. A new generation of women have nowhere near the personal freedoms of their mothers. Afghanistan, OTOH, was generally more backward, but in the urban areas there was far more freedom, until the Taliban took over. The Taliban were popular because they replaced brutal, uncontrolled warlords. So it goes.
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12th November 2012, 08:34 PM | #293 |
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Thanks for taking the time to give a brief summary westprog. The history really is tragic. It seems that a lot of things have to go right in order for most people in a society to live in relative freedom with basic rights. I'm very grateful that I live in a Western society in modern times.
I only know about Afghanistan from what I've read on the various news sites and the book "The Kite Runner" which while fiction is presumably based on reality. If the Taliban are considered saviours, I can't even begin to imagine what the warlords were like. |
12th November 2012, 09:05 PM | #294 |
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The Russians came in to bring the Afghans enlightened, secular values, which they did, up to a point. Unfortunately they did this at the cost of hundreds of thousands of lives, and incidentally the destruction of the Soviet Union. All the might of the biggest country in the world coupled with the ideology that defined the twentieth century clashed with militant Islam and lost massively. Russia shattered on Afghanistan as much as it did against Star Wars.
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12th November 2012, 10:02 PM | #295 |
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I don't think there is any way to take out the subjective element from any system of morality. We might choose, for example, evolutionary principles to be the measurement of morals (so, to be entirely pragmatic and ex post facto about morality), but we could choose otherwise and people have. How to prove such choice to be objectively wrong? However, this impossibility does not imply relativity. I have chosen enlightenment liberalism (or, if you prefer, humanist-Christian values) to be my measurement of morality, and would not hesitate to call it superior to killing your daughters for looking at boys - and in certain circumstances would not even oppose of imposing these values on people and areas that are particularly intensively breaching them. I don't really see why this would be illogical, the opposite in fact. We cannot be neutrally in the world.
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13th November 2012, 01:13 AM | #296 |
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Guys, the question wasn't "If there was some sort of universally agreed benchmark for whose culture was 'best', what would you think if North Korea won it?", but rather "If there was some sort of universally agreed benchmark for whose culture was 'best' and North Korea won it, would you be happy if North Korea began imposing its moral values on UK/USA?", but I think you knew that, and I think you know the answer.
Reading between the lines, you'd be happy for some sort of 'Universal Benchmark', but only if it were Western values (your values) that were used. |
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13th November 2012, 01:22 AM | #297 |
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No, that would be silly. Please stop hitting the strawman you've just made and point out where I was talking about 'emotions'. What I was discussing with you - the claim which you have failed to provide one shred of evidence for - is that we are born moral; that morals are already 'baked-in' to our brains at birth.
While you're at it you may wish to provide evidence for your claim that soldiers are able to overcome the inhibition to kill by thinking of the enemy as 'other than human'. Yes. Why would Christians waste one of Ten Commandments on "Thou shalt not kill" if it was already built in? |
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13th November 2012, 01:24 AM | #298 |
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13th November 2012, 02:12 AM | #299 |
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It doesn’t matter who DIDN’T think it was a good idea – that’s not what I’m saying. What I’m saying is that there WAS a desire for change from within the US, and change was not brought about mainly due to external pressure.
That’s smashing – it really is. But – once again – you’re not seeing what I am saying; We should not be imposing our cultural values and standards on other cultures just because we don’t like theirs. If there is a desire for change within, then I am all for helping. I have never said there is no desire for change within Middle Eastern countries, so you wasted 30 seconds. Not sure what you mean. What do you think Western morals and values are fundamentally based on? What have I suggested they are based on? Because I don’t see how they were relevant to a Western culture imposing its completely differing values and standards on a Middle Eastern one. Please feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. You seem to be determined to prove that it’s OK for us to dictate cultural values to a completely differing Middle Eastern culture by showing that Western cultures have influenced change in other Western cultures. You think? Maybe I was simplifying… Really? I thought it was about family honour…
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13th November 2012, 06:45 AM | #300 |
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13th November 2012, 06:51 AM | #301 |
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13th November 2012, 08:10 AM | #302 |
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I'm not sure about that. Reading the history, it seems that Great Britain was putting a great deal of pressure on other countries including the USA -- such as by stopping the slave trade over the Atlantic.
As per my last post it's clear that Middle Eastern women enjoy freedom, civil rights and dignity the same as most members of the human race do as indicated by past history and civil rights organizations that they have formed. Politically powerful men who benefit by the current system are not in favor of change anymore than wealthy (U.S.) southern slave holders were in the 1800s. That is why I made the comparisons that I did.
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That being said, show me an example of where powerful people were accused of being witches and I might believe that it didn't start out that way. For example, in most republics that aren't corrupt anyone who is suspected of committing a crime will be investigated and if enough evidence is gathered, arrested and tried in court even if they are a powerful person or belong to a powerful family. So for example, One of Senator Ted Kennedy's nephews, William Kennedy Smith, was tried for rape. Martha Stewart was tried, convicted and served time for insider trading. Were powerful people belonging to powerful families convicted of being witches?
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13th November 2012, 09:29 AM | #303 |
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The external slave trade was banned in the USA long before the Civil War (though the law was much transgressed). British suppression of the trade was difficult to enforce due to international law. The Americans were nominally supposed to be assisting the blockade, but were generally far more interested in preserving their own sovereignty. It wasn't until the beginning of the Civil War that the US began to assist Britain, and the transatlantic trade was ended.
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13th November 2012, 09:30 AM | #304 |
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Great Britain. Another Western culture, at that time probably only a few generations removed from their ‘American Cousins’. Hardly a vast cultural difference.
Ummmm… they do? Obvious statement is obvious. Like I said – it doesn’t matter who DIDN’T want change, but that there was a climate for change within. Which there was. I dunno; however I can, as and when I can. No, I was concerned about outsiders imposing their unwanted foreign cultural values on a Middle Eastern Culture that had no existing desire to change. I was shown pages ago that Pakistan has active anti-Honour Killing/Women’s Rights movements, and stated that in cases like this, I am happy to see external aid provided. And nobody seems to be able to justify why ‘The West’ has the right to police the world, other than “Because we can”, “Because we have the biggest stick”, “We have the 'best' morals”. Where would I stand? That in Northern Ireland there is an internal British problem with which Britain is dealing with internally. I certainly wouldn’t welcome the ‘forced’ input of a Middle Eastern country where it wasn’t asked for. By asking “How similar are the two cultures?”, and taking into account things like where the culture descended from, and general values and standards. I think even a primary schoolchild would agree that a strict Middle Eastern Islamic Culture is pretty much different from general American culture. That’s great, it really is, but how similar is American culture, for instance, to that of an Islamic Fundamental Culture in Pakistan? Which is kind of the point I’m making. I did. Sorry – still looks like that’s what you were doing. Maybe you want to expand a little more? Nobody said the Taliban WEREN’T horrendous hypocrites, but at least they’re consistent with their reasoning behind Honour Killings, and they don’t use women from their OWN culture, thereby avoiding dishonouring their own women:
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You were the one who said Witch Hunts were about power – don’t you believe that now? I’m not sure what you’re trying to say. From birth? Are they born with it? Do they have a sense of fairness before 15 months? Yes. Honour Killing is illegal in the UK, and if I killed my daughter for family honour, I could realistically expect to die in prison. In Pakistan Honour Killing is also illegal, however, I’d be back home after serving two months, apparently. Soooooooo much in common… |
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13th November 2012, 09:45 AM | #305 |
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13th November 2012, 10:00 AM | #306 |
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I'm assuming based on the little I know about the history of the time, that Britain was the 800 lb gorilla of that era and used its power to convince other nations, including the US, to reluctantly sign treaties banning slave trade on the Atlantic and allow British navel officers to inspect ships and arrest slavers. But that because the other nations, including the US, weren't actually on board they did not cooperate.
From the BBC link posted earlier:
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13th November 2012, 10:01 AM | #307 |
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The answer is freedom of choice. North Koreans lack choice, as do Muslim women though there is variation from country to country.
If the women who live in an honour killing culture had a genuinely free choice and chose to keep a tradition that involves them being blamed for being raped and then they are killed, so be it. I suspect though they would be likely to chose not to have such a tradition continue. The campaigns against honour killings are showing women they can start to chose not to be killed in such a manner. They will have to fight for that choice and I would like to see all assistance given to them. |
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13th November 2012, 10:03 AM | #308 |
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You're missing the point. Nothing succeeds like success. Only successful cultural constructs would result in the data that would lead you to conclude that one culture is better than another. It's not that North Korea would succeed, it's that North Korea can't succeed. For a cultural construct to be successful the data supporting the social science has to be there.
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13th November 2012, 10:05 AM | #309 |
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13th November 2012, 10:14 AM | #310 |
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It's not a strawman, rather your lack of understanding how the brain experiences moral feelings is the problem.
What do you think morals are? It's the emotional experience of certain rights and wrongs. Normal people know it is not right to murder. It's not fear of punishment that creates that emotion. Animals have a demonstrated sense of fairness that can lead them to act against their own best interest. This has been demonstrated in non-human primates. Very young children have no problem breaking a rule like, no eating in the classroom, if told the rule had changed but the same age children do no readily hit an animal when told the rule of no hitting no longer applies. That experiment was done. How about you explain what you think moral thought is. Do you think we behave a certain way because we learned right and wrong on a blank slate? Think we behave morally because we fear punishment? Seriously? That's your argument? Are you also under the misconception atheists would just go round on murderous rampages if there wasn't a law against murder? Morals don't come from religion. A few behavior rules might, like the arbitrary taboo against pork or the claim that homosexual acts are sins. But people fit their religion to their moral beliefs, not the other way around. |
13th November 2012, 10:52 AM | #311 |
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I suspect that you have a bet with yourself as to how long you can keep this thread going. FWIW, I started doubting that you are debating sincerely shortly after the thread began, but I also now believe that this thread has gone past the point where it can provide useful data or points of view to anyone who is lurking and sincerely looking for that kind of information.
But before I end my participation in this thread, for those possible lurkers, I also suggest reading this Wiki article on the TalibanWP. Some cut and pastes:
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And I have to respond to what you said here:
Originally Posted by SatansMailVoiceChoir
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13th November 2012, 12:53 PM | #312 |
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My synopsis:
SMVC: I'm against honor killings but I don't think we should impose our values on others by force; Opposing Choir: how can you defend honor killings, how barbaric, have you no sense of decency SMVC: Once again, I'm against honor killings but I don't think we should impose our values on others by force OC: Clearly we have superior values and they suit us very well, how can you defend honor killings (gruesome details) have you no sense of decency. And on and on and on and on. |
13th November 2012, 12:55 PM | #313 |
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I think I unwittingly opened a whole can of worms regarding the dilemma of honor killing. The dilemma is this: We want to stop the practice honor killing. However, enforcement of such a prohibition from without tends to provoke a counter-reaction within those cultures, often only making things worse. On the other hand, we can hardly stand by and do nothing while atrocities are committed. Let me propose a number of possible strategies, none of which I see as decisive, but all of which might be useful.
1) Modernization: Keep infecting these societies with the internet and other aspects of western technology that will break down their traditional culture. 2) Ant-Poverty Programs: These would include education. Where we find tribal resistance in one tribe and far less in another, increase the aid to the receptive tribe and help them prosper at the expense of the resistant tribe. 3)Enforcement: Keep cracking down on human trafficking, slavery, etc., brutally punishing those who have anything to do with the slave trade. I really don't care, in this regard, if we step on some toes and provoke outcries over infringing on national sovereignty. I think we pretty well did that when our Navy Seals killed Osama bin Ladin. We should also lean heavily on the governments of countries where honor killings occur, pressing them to treat the perpetrators of such murders harshly. 4) Exposure: We should broadcast the excesses of human trafficking, slavery, forced prostitution, mutilation and honor killings in those parts of the world where they occur and shame those cultures and their leaders in the public media. We should not shy away from this just because someone feels their culture or religion is being dissed. This effort should also include pressure on Islamic religious authorities and spokespersons to justify their beliefs and practices to the rest of us. |
13th November 2012, 01:11 PM | #314 |
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How long do you think honor killings would exist if they weren't implemented by force? Who volunteers to get murdered or even have acid thrown in their face or have parts of their bodies amputated? It makes a big difference whether the victims have any choice in the matter.
And if you look into the various links about the Taliban in Afghanistan, it's clear that they were a fringe group put into power and financed by outsiders who could care less about Afghanis and a great deal about their own finances and political desires. |
13th November 2012, 01:24 PM | #315 |
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Those sound like good recommendations Tim. I'd like to add one more. Our govts should think more carefully about what allies we support. Sometimes the enemies of our enemies are not friends, but just more enemies that shouldn't be supported.
While reading about the Taliban, I found it very distressing to see this:
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13th November 2012, 01:32 PM | #316 |
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There are two things here that, while linked, are still separate. One is the body of atrocities carried out by the Taliban. This is something we should combat, even after we leave Afghanistan. For example, an international force of volunteers who have a zeal to combat slavery, human trafficking and forced prostitution could and should remain active.
Unfortunately, the matter of honor killings will be quite a bit harder to deal with. In most of the countries where these occur the entire culture supports such behavior. Otherwise, these atrocities would fade away. We cannot, in all practicality, enforce a ban on honor killings from without. Constant pressure on these cultures to change there ways would be one way to force an eventual end to these abominable practices. An idea occurs to me that might save lives. Western countries could set up places in which to receive women, girls and others who could be exiled and considered dead to their families. We could then educate, westernize and transport these exiles to more enlightened societies. They would effectively cease to exist in their old communities, satisfying the honor code until we can implement enough change to end it. |
13th November 2012, 01:42 PM | #317 |
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13th November 2012, 01:47 PM | #318 |
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Except we said over and over, no one was talking 'force'. Then he went on saying that only people within the country have the right to say anything. And we all said one could make a value judgement and exert pressure without being part of the culture.
So you kind of missed some details. |
13th November 2012, 02:06 PM | #319 |
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13th November 2012, 05:09 PM | #320 |
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That's pretty much the case. Sweet Water And Bitter is an excellent book about it. The strange thing is that Britain, in spite of many shameful activities in its past (and indeed future) seemed to be driven by a genuine moral imperative, in spite of being one of the leading slaving nations.
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