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28th June 2018, 05:58 PM | #441 |
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28th June 2018, 05:59 PM | #442 |
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28th June 2018, 06:01 PM | #443 |
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How?
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28th June 2018, 09:08 PM | #444 |
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28th June 2018, 09:14 PM | #445 |
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28th June 2018, 10:11 PM | #446 |
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We are not talking about the police here who exercise a policy of not saying someone is guilty before charging someone. We are talking about congressmen and their constituents. By saying person X you will charge with crime Y when the evidence of that is final uncovered, you have declared the rules you are taking a principled stand on.
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29th June 2018, 01:07 AM | #447 |
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Are we really back to people pretending not to know how a plea deal works?
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29th June 2018, 01:34 AM | #448 |
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29th June 2018, 04:03 AM | #449 |
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Hmm? What? They've been trying to deny that there was a plea deal in the first place the entire time. Why? Feel free to ask them what the excuse of the week is. Or bear with the more usual deafening silence as they don't even try to explain their denial of the evidence available.
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29th June 2018, 07:37 AM | #450 |
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It's important that if you are claiming that a crime has been committed, you do not cite another, unrelated crime as evidence of your claim. Did Flynn conspire with the Russians to manipulate elections? Maybe, maybe not. Is Flynn's conviction for a process crime arising from the investigation itself evidence of that conspiracy? Absolutely not. Was SG wrong to cite Flynn's conviction as evidence of the conspiracy? Of course. Do woos frequently produce citations that don't support their arguments? Yes, almost every time, and it's always hilarious.
And this is the state of the Russian collusion narrative. You believe there was collusion. You believe I should be shamed or shouted down for daring to question that belief. And your best evidence - your very best, most skeptical, rational evidence - is what? That after the election, a representative of the incoming administration met with foreign officials to discuss matters of foreign policy, as is customary, reasonable, and legal. And that there is no evidence that anything untoward was discussed or agreed at these meetings. And that for whatever reason, the administration representative lied about the meeting to investigators, probably because he's an idiot, and probably also because he got bad legal advice. That's your best evidence. That's what you want so badly for me to accept, as evidence of the conspiracy you believe in. And believe is the right word. This conspiracy theory is a religion for you. Mueller is your prophet, and CNN is your holy scripture. Anyone who dissents is a heretic or an infidel. |
29th June 2018, 08:06 AM | #451 |
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I think some of us are waiting for evidence that these particular plea deals are working the the way others of us believe they're working.
Side note: Brazilian jurisprudence has a similar concept, delação premiada. It's typically translated as "plea bargain", but it is markedly different in one important aspect. In an American plea bargain, the accused is pleading guilty to a lesser crime, in exchange for leniency from the prosecutor and the court. Often, some form of incriminating testimony against other accused is included in the deal. The Brazilian "rewarded denunciation", on the other hand, is based on the accused confessing to the crime itself, not some lesser crime. The leniency of the courts is premised on the accused being honest about their criminal activity. The reward they get depends on the transparency of their confession and the value of the evidence they give against their co-conspirators. If Flynn had agreed to such a Brazilian "plea bargain", that would indeed be evidence of the conspiracy, since he would literally be confessing to the conspiracy, and supplying evidence of it as part of the bargain. But the American "plea bargain" (if such it is), is at this point evidence of nothing more than the lesser crime to which he has actually confessed. Whether this bargain includes evidence of the conspiracy you believe in, and even whether Flynn has such evidence in the first place, remains to be seen. Citing his process crime as evidence of the conspiracy is pure woo. |
29th June 2018, 08:11 AM | #452 |
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29th June 2018, 08:16 AM | #453 |
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29th June 2018, 08:18 AM | #454 |
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I've said it before, Flynn ought to rescind the pleas deal for "lying" to the the FBI, unless and until the FBI and Strzok in particular can show that they did not doctor the 302's
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29th June 2018, 08:31 AM | #455 |
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29th June 2018, 08:44 AM | #456 |
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I didn't miss anything. Nothing you quoted contradicts anything I said.
As part of the transition, Flynn's discussions were well within the bounds of his job duties. Sanctions are a legitimate topic of discussion between government officials and soon-to-be government officials. Zwaan's crimes have nothing to do with the campaign. And you have a reason why Manafort was investigated, but nothing to indicate any actual collusion in regard to the campaign. So... still a fail. You don't have what you claimed you had. |
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29th June 2018, 09:37 AM | #457 |
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Peter Strzok: I volunteer to talk to Congress!
Peter Strzok: I can't answer these Questions. Rosenstein said during a line of questioning with Texas Rep. John Ratcliffe, a member of the House Judiciary Committee. Rosenstein said if Mueller “were to rely upon a document that Mr. Strzok produced, or a statement that he took, or to call him as a witness,” he “obviously he would need to consider…evidence that would tend to impeach his credibility.” Let Flynn go! |
29th June 2018, 09:55 AM | #458 |
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29th June 2018, 09:57 AM | #459 |
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29th June 2018, 10:01 AM | #460 |
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The first sentence puts the lie to your canard that this is about not knowing how plea deals work.
The rest is a sidebar about how similar kinds of arrangements between prosecutor and defendant work in different jurisdictions, and how the details of their working may carry more or less information about what alleged crimes were actually committed. |
29th June 2018, 10:03 AM | #461 |
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When you give a single piece of evidence in isolation, and it turns out to not support your claim, that's on you. Any argument that depends on people connecting the dots for you, and starts with a dot that isn't actually connected to the claim, is a woo argument. This is nobody's fault but your own.
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29th June 2018, 10:32 AM | #462 |
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He testified with the honesty and integrity that marked his law enforcement career, huh?
“The predominant reason that we communicated on our work phones was because we were trying to keep our affair a secret from our spouses," Page told the IG. So, we should expect to see the lying sleazebag up on perjury charges shortly. |
29th June 2018, 10:47 AM | #463 |
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29th June 2018, 10:48 AM | #464 |
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29th June 2018, 10:52 AM | #465 |
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29th June 2018, 11:16 AM | #466 |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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29th June 2018, 11:23 AM | #467 |
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29th June 2018, 11:52 AM | #468 |
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You're overlooking the nature of the investigation that they were part of, and that the fact that they took plea deals means that there are other, larger crimes they could have been charged with. You're also obfuscating by bringing up "Russian collusion" in the first place WRT guilty pleas, and being disingenuous by pretending that these guilty pleas are the only evidence that exists rather than the only guilty pleas that have thus far been made.
You're welcome. |
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29th June 2018, 11:53 AM | #469 |
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29th June 2018, 12:01 PM | #470 |
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Gosh, it's like an episode of marital infidelity is a blot on an FBI agent's character. Serial infidelity, on the other hand is... Presidential?
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29th June 2018, 12:01 PM | #471 |
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There ya go, they were using their work phones to hide their affair, which shows that their sleazy, tawdry dishonest affair was intimately involved with his FBI career, thank god we got that figured out.
here is a cite you requested, as always, my pleasure. Adulterous duo bypassed chain of command |
29th June 2018, 01:02 PM | #472 |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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29th June 2018, 01:51 PM | #473 |
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29th June 2018, 02:04 PM | #474 |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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29th June 2018, 02:44 PM | #475 |
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Okay, that's fair. Now to the meat of the matter:
What larger crimes do you KNOW that they could have been charged with? Not what you *speculate* that they *might* have *maybe* been charged with, but that you KNOW were on the table as charges? What is the other evidence do you KNOW exists outside of these guilty please that supports the allegation of conspiracy to commit election fraud? Not other evidence that you *speculate* *might* exist, but that you KNOW exists? |
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29th June 2018, 03:12 PM | #476 |
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Keep in mind that this conversation started another thread, because SG presented this stuff specifically, as evidence of the alleged conspiracy.
It's not really about how plea bargains work, it's about what you think this particular plea bargain means. If you don't think this plea bargain stands on its own as evidence, then let's talk about the other evidence. What should SG have led with? What evidence would you lead with, if you weren't stuck explaining how plea bargains work. |
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29th June 2018, 03:14 PM | #477 |
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In Flynn's case, he was allegedly paid by the government of Turkey to represent its interests to the U.S. government. The Foreign Agents Registration Act requires that people acting in such a capacity "disclose their relationship with the foreign government and information about related activities and finances." The penalty for violating the FARA is, at absolute worst, 5 years in prison. Flynn did not register. Flynn has not been charged for this, even though federal prosecutors made note of this alleged violation in court filings that were made along with he plea deal. |
29th June 2018, 03:16 PM | #478 |
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29th June 2018, 03:33 PM | #479 |
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29th June 2018, 03:34 PM | #480 |
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