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Old Today, 03:48 AM   #1881
GlennB
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I'm aware of that, but it doesn't alter the point I made. How is recruitment now, this year, affected by something which hasn't happened yet?

Ninja'd by Tolls.
The perception that the UK is increasingly racist, which doesn't require Brexit to 'have happened'. Given the rise in xenophobic hate crime and the general anti-immigrant vitriol I see in some parts of social media I find it hard to blame the fruit+veg pickers for staying away.

eta: plus the exchange rate, of course.


Grauniad article.
fwiw
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Old Today, 03:49 AM   #1882
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
I find it alarming that new downsides are uncovered on an almost daily basis, whereas the upsides are still the vague few promises of a "Global Britain", which remain without substance.

Any Brit should too. It seems that Brexit will create an isolated Britain, first and foremost. Even small advantages are at best decades away.

McHrozni


I have been asking, of anyone and everyone that will listen, for quite some time, for just one upside.

The only answer anyone has ever had that could be of some note is that we'd be able to bring back the death penalty...
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Turns out I don't know a lot about tigers.
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Old Today, 04:03 AM   #1883
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I have been asking, of anyone and everyone that will listen, for quite some time, for just one upside.

The only answer anyone has ever had that could be of some note is that we'd be able to bring back the death penalty...
Do you think that the vitriol and sneering directed at anyone who might express some sympathy with some aspects of Brexit is likely to lead to anyone wanting to answer this? You've added a nice little example, too, with the "bring back hanging" line, proving your question is not neutral........and in fact is nothing more than a trap. I could list all sorts of upsides to Brexit, but what would be the reaction? Further, it might lead people to conclude that I voted for it. So why would I bother? Why would anyone bother?
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Old Today, 04:05 AM   #1884
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
The perception that the UK is increasingly racist, which doesn't require Brexit to 'have happened'. ........
Do you not think that there is an argument that this was caused by the referendum, not by the result?
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Old Today, 04:06 AM   #1885
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I have been asking, of anyone and everyone that will listen, for quite some time, for just one upside.

The only answer anyone has ever had that could be of some note is that we'd be able to bring back the death penalty...
As we aren't withdrawing from the European Convention on Human Rights, leaving the EU would have no effect on the UK's ability to reinstate capital punishment.
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Old Today, 04:08 AM   #1886
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Originally Posted by ohms View Post
As we aren't withdrawing from the European Convention on Human Rights, leaving the EU would have no effect on the UK's ability to reinstate capital punishment.
Thought that May was pushing to leave the Council of Europe too so as to be free of the ECHR
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Old Today, 04:16 AM   #1887
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Do you think that the vitriol and sneering directed at anyone who might express some sympathy with some aspects of Brexit is likely to lead to anyone wanting to answer this?
You think I started this way? It's been a long, long time of listening to, quite frankly, flat out lies by those that wanted to leave simply for the sake of their own careers, listening to a feeble press desperately trying to be 'balanced' when it's patently obvious that leaving the EU is a ***************, listening to those who've been hoodwinked desperately trying to apply some post-hoc rationalisation to the worst political decision of my lifetime. I've been a long time explaining to people how representative democracy works and a million other things.

I started out quite polite, it's only in the face of overwhelming cognitive dissonance that I have arrived at this attitude.

I've given up asking nicely because I've given up expecting anyone to even grock that there's a question to answer.


Quote:
You've added a nice little example, too, with the "bring back hanging" line, proving your question is not neutral........and in fact is nothing more than a trap. I could list all sorts of upsides to Brexit, but what would be the reaction? Further, it might lead people to conclude that I voted for it. So why would I bother? Why would anyone bother?

I started by asking nicely. Nobody had any answers but, mysteriously, continued supporting what I consider to be a lunatic course of action.

There is still no-one with any answers beyond, as I say, the thing about the death penalty.


Perhaps you can tell me:

What solid, positive upsides are there to the UK leaving the EU? Given that it appears our farming industry and our NHS actually need access to imported labour, can you name one thing that the UK will be able to do once out of the EU that's a solid, net positive for the country.
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Turns out I don't know a lot about tigers.

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Old Today, 04:24 AM   #1888
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Do you think that the vitriol and sneering directed at anyone who might express some sympathy with some aspects of Brexit is likely to lead to anyone wanting to answer this? You've added a nice little example, too, with the "bring back hanging" line, proving your question is not neutral........and in fact is nothing more than a trap. I could list all sorts of upsides to Brexit, but what would be the reaction? Further, it might lead people to conclude that I voted for it. So why would I bother? Why would anyone bother?
Presumably nobody needs to because it is a done deal. Certainly that has been the argument from some of the Leavers when it is pointed out that staying in the EU might be better. I think there has been a lot of hostility from all sides of this, and while there may be sneering from the Leavers there has certainly also been triumphalist jeering against the "Remoaners" from the other.

So let's assume that the extremes on either side deserve each other, and put them to one side. For the less shrill, and I like to consider myself among them, would you mind putting the case for Brexit that you can imagine an idealized Leaver making?
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Old Today, 04:25 AM   #1889
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Thought that May was pushing to leave the Council of Europe too so as to be free of the ECHR
The Tories quietly dropped that idea earlier this year on the basis that it would be a distraction from Brexit negotiations. Their manifesto stated that they would remain signatories of the Convention for the next Parliament.
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Old Today, 04:26 AM   #1890
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
........So let's assume that the extremes on either side deserve each other, and put them to one side. For the less shrill, and I like to consider myself among them, would you mind putting the case for Brexit that you can imagine an idealized Leaver making?
No, I absolutely won't be doing that. I've really have fallen into that trap before. The danger is that I am immediately labelled as a supporter of Brexit.

Of course I recognise you as amongst the more balanced, less shrill. but others won't care who I am responding to.
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Old Today, 04:29 AM   #1891
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
No, I absolutely won't be doing that. I've really have fallen into that trap before. The danger is that I am immediately labelled as a supporter of Brexit.

Of course I recognise you as amongst the more balanced, less shrill. but others won't care who I am responding to.


And I therefore remain utterly unaware of any upside to leaving the EU.

I read downsides every day.

Not a single upside. And yet we continue on this self destructive course.

I'm really hoping that sometime soon someone will answer the question that you won't.
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Old Today, 04:30 AM   #1892
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
........Perhaps you can tell me:

What solid, positive upsides are there to the UK leaving the EU? Given that it appears our farming industry and our NHS actually need access to imported labour, can you name one thing that the UK will be able to do once out of the EU that's a solid, net positive for the country.
If you'll allow me to list just two, without assuming that this means I think they are the primary factors, or that I think they might balance out other negative factors, then I'm prepared to do it as an experiment. Deal?
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That's what we've sunk to here.
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Old Today, 04:32 AM   #1893
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
If you'll allow me to list just two, without assuming that this means I think they are the primary factors, or that I think they might balance out other negative factors, then I'm prepared to do it as an experiment. Deal?

Thank you, yes, deal.

You can verbally slap me silly if I get all lairy.
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We are lions, not tigers.
Turns out I don't know a lot about tigers.
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Old Today, 04:33 AM   #1894
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There are some theoretical advantages.

The common agricultural policy is an utter mess. The common fisheries policy os pretty bad.

We would have the theoretical possibility of creating something better than those.


However there's no reason to believe that we won't get something equivalent or worse.
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Old Today, 04:34 AM   #1895
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
.........can you name one thing that the UK will be able to do once out of the EU that's a solid, net positive for the country.
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Thank you, yes, deal.

You can verbally slap me silly if I get all lairy.
OK then...........

1-Post Brexit the UK will be able to determine which goods attract VAT and which are exempt.

2-Post Brexit, the UK will be able to make trade deals directly with non EU countries (and trading blocs).
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That's what we've sunk to here.

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Old Today, 04:41 AM   #1896
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
OK then...........

1-Post Brexit the UK will be able to determine which goods attract VAT and which are exempt.

2-Post Brexit, the UK will be able to make trade deals directly with non EU countries (and trading blocs).
Thank you.
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We are lions, not tigers.
Turns out I don't know a lot about tigers.
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Old Today, 05:01 AM   #1897
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
OK then...........

1-Post Brexit the UK will be able to determine which goods attract VAT and which are exempt.

2-Post Brexit, the UK will be able to make trade deals directly with non EU countries (and trading blocs).
I will give you 1

I would say that 2 isn't an a positive. We will have to make trade deals directly.
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US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old Today, 05:25 AM   #1898
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I don't understand your point, JB. What is the downside?

There is certainly an upside that I am interested in, and that is the large number of barriers, tariff and non-tariff, to trade with Africa. Trade, not aid, and all that. I would love to see the UK sign a trade deal with the AU, or with the various regional trading blocs (SADeC, ECOWAS etc). I've lobbied for the EU to do such deals for 15 years or more now, and been disappointed but not surprised that nothing much seems to change.
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That's what we've sunk to here.

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Old Today, 05:43 AM   #1899
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Do you not think that there is an argument that this was caused by the referendum, not by the result?
I'd say that the result of the referendum is what has emboldened xenophobes to get more public about their attitudes. Had it been (say) 52-48 'remain' the whole debate would have fizzled out, whereas now the more aggressive faction of 'leave' voters can hardly stop crowing. They see it not just as a victory, but their personal victory, and one that vindicates their xenophobia.
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Old Today, 05:58 AM   #1900
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Quite possibly, Glenn, but it is also arguable that the actual campaign (rather than the result) is what stirred up the hornet's nest. I don't mix with that sort of person, so I have nothing to judge this by. I'm just theorising.
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That's what we've sunk to here.
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Old Today, 06:27 AM   #1901
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Originally Posted by ohms View Post
The Tories quietly dropped that idea earlier this year on the basis that it would be a distraction from Brexit negotiations. Their manifesto stated that they would remain signatories of the Convention for the next Parliament.
So 'til Xmas then?
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Old Today, 06:28 AM   #1902
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
So 'til Xmas then?
That long?!
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Some seem to think the UK leaving the EU is like Robbie leaving Take That.
In reality it's more like Pete leaving The Beatles.

We are lions, not tigers.
Turns out I don't know a lot about tigers.
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Old Today, 06:35 AM   #1903
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Originally Posted by ohms View Post
The Tories quietly dropped that idea earlier this year on the basis that it would be a distraction from Brexit negotiations. Their manifesto stated that they would remain signatories of the Convention for the next Parliament.
And then shortly after started making noises about doing away with human rights that stopped them dealing with terrorists. So there are at best mixed messages.
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Old Today, 06:49 AM   #1904
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
And then shortly after started making noises about doing away with human rights that stopped them dealing with terrorists. So there are at best mixed messages.
I believe that the ECHR is referenced in both the Good Friday Agreement and Scotland Act so renegotiating those and a UK withdrawal from the convention would not be a trivial task. It's just noise from the usual suspects.
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Old Today, 07:55 AM   #1905
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Originally Posted by ohms View Post
I believe that the ECHR is referenced in both the Good Friday Agreement and Scotland Act so renegotiating those and a UK withdrawal from the convention would not be a trivial task. It's just noise from the usual suspects.
Do you honestly think the Tories would be troubled by such details from the provinces? If they want to do it, they will do it.
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Old Today, 12:44 PM   #1906
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Do you honestly think the Tories would be troubled by such details from the provinces? If they want to do it, they will do it.
I seem to remember that those troubles from that overseas province also affected England.
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Old Today, 12:45 PM   #1907
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I don't understand your point, JB. What is the downside?

There is certainly an upside that I am interested in, and that is the large number of barriers, tariff and non-tariff, to trade with Africa. Trade, not aid, and all that. I would love to see the UK sign a trade deal with the AU, or with the various regional trading blocs (SADeC, ECOWAS etc). I've lobbied for the EU to do such deals for 15 years or more now, and been disappointed but not surprised that nothing much seems to change.
Well, for starters, you don't even have the negotiators to negotiate Brexit, but had to import them from NZ. How do think to start (re)negotiating 600 treaties, let alone new ones?
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Old Today, 12:52 PM   #1908
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Well, for starters, you don't even have the negotiators to negotiate Brexit, but had to import them from NZ. How do think to start (re)negotiating 600 treaties, let alone new ones?
How many? Where have you got this from? That's approx. 3 for every country on the planet.
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Old Today, 07:21 PM   #1909
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
How many? Where have you got this from? That's approx. 3 for every country on the planet.
Well, if you take "treaties" to mean treaties, agreements, protocols, etc then I could see it. Consider many closely-linked countries might have several outright treaties on different issues such as trade/economy, security cooperation, international aid, etc.

It's possible that many countries will quickly adopt a more or less boiler-plate agreement with the UK, but it will take some time to iron out details with some states that feel they are in an advantageous position (more likely now with a weak coalition and/or minority government).

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