If Biden resigns over papergate

[Sherkeu]

Originally Posted by wareyin

That's nice. Who was the originator of the documents in question?

Who went through the declassification procedure for the documents in question?

[wareyin]

Originally Posted by Sherkeu

Who went through the declassification procedure for the documents in question?

Oh, I'm sorry, did you think I had claimed the documents were declassified?

Allow me to repeat (for, what, the 4th or 5th time now?) that my entire claim was that VP's have the ability to declassify documents, contra Wolrab's claim that they do not.

[Sherkeu]

Originally Posted by wareyin

Oh, I'm sorry, did you think I had claimed the documents were declassified?

Allow me to repeat (for, what, the 4th or 5th time now?) that my entire claim was that VP's have the ability to declassify documents, contra Wolrab's claim that they do not.

Your claim is of no consequence to the stories currently in the media. Splitting hairs to the nanometer just to be right.
Please speak to the issues at hand in the real world and not some fictional universe where Biden does not have classified documents that violate the law.

And to be honest, I dont really care that he does, I bet they all do. The actions of discovery, investigation, and media leaks are coming from his own camp so I'm not sure who you are defending. As a skeptic, maybe think about why that may be so, and why now.

[wareyin]

Originally Posted by Sherkeu

Your claim is of no consequence to the stories currently in the media. Splitting hairs to the nanometer just to be right.
Please speak to the issues at hand in the real world and not some fictional universe where Biden does not have classified documents that violate the law.

And to be honest, I dont really care that he does, I bet they all do. The actions of discovery, investigation, and media leaks are coming from his own camp so I'm not sure who you are defending. As a skeptic, maybe think about why that may be so, and why now.

Here, in the real world, the VP has the ability to declassify documents.

Also, here in the real world the claim that Biden has violated the law is so far wishful thinking by the far right and the far left, but has not been demonstrated to be true as of yet.

[Sherkeu]

Originally Posted by wareyin

Here, in the real world, the VP has the ability to declassify documents [that his VP office originated and classified].

Also, here in the real world the claim that Biden has violated the law is so far wishful thinking by the far right and the far left, but has not been demonstrated to be true as of yet.

fixed.

[wareyin]

Originally Posted by Sherkeu

fixed.

Thank you for agreeing that despite claims otherwise, the VP office does have the power to declassify documents.

[The Great Zaganza]

Funny how a REPUBLICAN EX-President can declassify everything retroactively by mere thought, but a DEMOCRAT ACTIVE President can't.

[ahhell]

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

Funny how a REPUBLICAN EX-President can declassify everything retroactively by mere thought, but a DEMOCRAT ACTIVE President can't.

First, throat clearing about Bidens thing appearing not to be as bad as Trumps. Mostly becuase Trump pretty clearly did it on purpose and fought and lied at every step when it came to giving the **** back.

That being said, the thing about Trump allegedly declassify the stuff was supposed to have happened when he took the material home.

The VP only has what power the President gives him so it makes total sense that biden can't go back in time and declassify the stuff currently being found. Where as in theory, if Trump at actually thought to, he could have declassified stuff before he took it home.

[ahhell]

Originally Posted by wareyin

Also, here in the real world the claim that Biden has violated the law is so far wishful thinking by the far right and the far left, but has not been demonstrated to be true as of yet.

Biden has clearly broken the law by mishandling classified material. The only place that is in doubt is in the fantasies of Biden partisans. The only question is is the sort of thing that put US security in jeopardy or a bunch of stuff that shouldn't have been classified in the first place.

The other problem, Trump, HRC, Colon Powell, various generals, Sandy Berger....etc, all did basically the same thing before him. I'd bet pretty much every Potus, VP and most Cabinet officials for the last 40 years have as well, they just didn't get caught, and mostly its probably all harmless **** that shouldn't be classified anyway.

I'm curious how many former officials are feverishly rummaging through their cabinets right now.

[wareyin]

Originally Posted by ahhell

First, throat clearing about Bidens thing appearing not to be as bad as Trumps. Mostly becuase Trump pretty clearly did it on purpose and fought and lied at every step when it came to giving the **** back.

Agreed

Originally Posted by ahhell

That being said, the thing about Trump allegedly declassify the stuff was supposed to have happened when he took the material home.

The VP only has what power the President gives him so it makes total sense that biden can't go back in time and declassify the stuff currently being found. Where as in theory, if Trump at actually thought to, he could have declassified stuff before he took it home.

The declassification powers of the VP aren't quite as cut and dried as several here believe. In the previously linked fact check, it was pointed out that the vice president has the power to declassify, while noting the scope of that authority "has never been definitively tested." (my emphasis) and further, '"It is longstanding practice in the executive branch to treat the vice president as having the same amount of authority in that respect as the president unless the president explicitly says otherwise," McClanahan said.'
As such, it isn't that the President actively has to grant the VP such powers, it's that the VP has such powers unless the President revokes them.

Originally Posted by ahhell

Biden has clearly broken the law by mishandling classified material. The only place that is in doubt is in the fantasies of Biden partisans. The only question is is the sort of thing that put US security in jeopardy or a bunch of stuff that shouldn't have been classified in the first place.

I must have missed the part where Biden in any way took part in moving or storing these documents that his staff already claimed to have packed up without Biden's direct oversight. Could you link to that? Or is this a case of 'If I put something in your house without your knowledge I can have you prosecuted for having possession of it?'

[ahhell]

Originally Posted by wareyin

Agreed



The declassification powers of the VP aren't quite as cut and dried as several here believe. In the previously linked fact check, it was pointed out that the vice president has the power to declassify, while noting the scope of that authority "has never been definitively tested." (my emphasis) and further, '"It is longstanding practice in the executive branch to treat the vice president as having the same amount of authority in that respect as the president unless the president explicitly says otherwise," McClanahan said.'
As such, it isn't that the President actively has to grant the VP such powers, it's that the VP has such powers unless the President revokes them.



I must have missed the part where Biden in any way took part in moving or storing these documents that his staff already claimed to have packed up without Biden's direct oversight. Could you link to that? Or is this a case of 'If I put something in your house without your knowledge I can have you prosecuted for having possession of it?'

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/t...2C%20or%20both.

Quote:

Whoever, being an officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States, and, by virtue of his office, employment, position, or contract, becomes possessed of documents or materials containing classified information of the United States, knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than five years, or both.

So, yes, merely possessing such documents is illegal.

Having your employees box up a bunch of stuff and putting it in your closet is somewhat different than having someone you've never met slip it into your filing cabinet.

Knowingly is the thing isn't it. What's worse, that Biden knew or that he was so ignorant that he didn't know his staff breaking the law for him? He didn't know what was next to his precious corvette or in his closet or at the multiple other locations this stuff seems to have been over the last 6 years.

[wareyin]

Originally Posted by ahhell

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/t...2C%20or%20both.
So, yes, merely possessing such documents is illegal.

I'm no lawyer admittedly, but I don't think that documents in an office you've never even visited count as in your possession. Even if your name is on the door.

Originally Posted by ahhell

Having your employees box up a bunch of stuff and putting it in your closet is somewhat different than having someone you've never met slip it into your filing cabinet.

Is it really? How so?

Originally Posted by ahhell

Knowingly is the thing isn't it. What's worse, that Biden knew or that he was so ignorant that he didn't know his staff breaking the law for him? He didn't know what was next to his precious corvette or in his closet or at the multiple other locations this stuff seems to have been over the last 6 years.

It is kinda telling how first you assume that the law was broken, then frame the actions in the false dichotomy of Biden not being aware of which box every document he ever saw was placed in being a bad thing or that Biden was actively breaking the law.

[ahhell]

Originally Posted by wareyin

I'm no lawyer admittedly, but I don't think that documents in an office you've never even visited count as in your possession. Even if your name is on the door.



Is it really? How so?



It is kinda telling how first you assume that the law was broken, then frame the actions in the false dichotomy of Biden not being aware of which box every document he ever saw was placed in being a bad thing or that Biden was actively breaking the law.

Was it his office? Was it his garage? Its kind of telling how you so quickly assume he didn't know what was on his property.

You really don't see how an employee doing something while in your employ is different than some random dude doing it?

I think its pretty clear which of us is stretching credulity more to maintain our pre-existing conclusions.

[wareyin]

Originally Posted by ahhell

Was it his office? Was it his garage? Its kind of telling how you so quickly assume he didn't know what was on his property.

The first set of papers were found in the Penn Biden Center. A place that it appears Biden himself has never been to. But of course right wingers still want to claim that counts as "in his possession" because it makes Biden look bad.

Why wouldn't anyone assume that nobody knows every single paper in every single box that a staffer packed out of their office was? Anyone who isn't reaching for nefarious intent because of partisan animosity, that is. Have you honestly never moved offices before?

Originally Posted by ahhell

You really don't see how an employee doing something while in your employ is different than some random dude doing it?

With regard to the culpability of a different person for the action? No. Spell it out if you really feel like either one makes the case that a third party is guilty for items packed into boxes that he wasn't there for and didn't oversee.

Originally Posted by ahhell

I think its pretty clear which of us is stretching credulity more to maintain our pre-existing conclusions.

I agree. It's the guy who has assumed guilt and is now struggling to frame the situation in a way that proves his prior assumption.

[Athyrio]

Originally Posted by ahhell

Biden has clearly broken the law by mishandling classified material. The only place that is in doubt is in the fantasies of Biden partisans. The only question is is the sort of thing that put US security in jeopardy or a bunch of stuff that shouldn't have been classified in the first place.

The other problem, Trump, HRC, Colon Powell, various generals, Sandy Berger....etc, all did basically the same thing before him. I'd bet pretty much every Potus, VP and most Cabinet officials for the last 40 years have as well, they just didn't get caught, and mostly its probably all harmless **** that shouldn't be classified anyway.

I'm curious how many former officials are feverishly rummaging through their cabinets right now.

They’re working on it. Pence just got outed.


https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/24/polit...fbi/index.html

[lobosrul5]

Originally Posted by ahhell

First, throat clearing about Bidens thing appearing not to be as bad as Trumps. Mostly becuase Trump pretty clearly did it on purpose and fought and lied at every step when it came to giving the **** back.

That being said, the thing about Trump allegedly declassify the stuff was supposed to have happened when he took the material home.

The VP only has what power the President gives him so it makes total sense that biden can't go back in time and declassify the stuff currently being found. Where as in theory, if Trump at actually thought to, he could have declassified stuff before he took it home.

Yes, but the moment he's no longer president is the moment he's no longer allowed to decide what is and what isn't classified info... otherwise we could have the ludicrous situation of a POTUS on his last day literally taking home anything he feels like and saying I said these are declassified and my personal property while I was POTUS, so **** off.

Trump's case is far worse because he refused to cooperate. Biden and Pence appear similar.

[Hans]

They need mean classified document librarians to smack them. A better document system for the handling of such is needed.

[Sherkeu]

Originally Posted by wareyin

The first set of papers were found in the Penn Biden Center. A place that it appears Biden himself has never been to. But of course right wingers still want to claim that counts as "in his possession" because it makes Biden look bad.

Why wouldn't anyone assume that nobody knows every single paper in every single box that a staffer packed out of their office was? Anyone who isn't reaching for nefarious intent because of partisan animosity, that is. Have you honestly never moved offices before?

Of course he went there. Not often, but he was there at the ribbon cutting and according to intern reports, showed up about once a month. The classified documents must have spent a year 'somewhere else" before moving into that office though since it didnt open until Feb. 2018 - likely the home Joe and Jill were renting in Virginia.

Here is Joe in his office at the Penn Biden Center:

[ahhell]

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

Yes, but the moment he's no longer president is the moment he's no longer allowed to decide what is and what isn't classified info... otherwise we could have the ludicrous situation of a POTUS on his last day literally taking home anything he feels like and saying I said these are declassified and my personal property while I was POTUS, so **** off.

Still, its plausible that Trump declassifed his stuff as he was leaving office. I don't think that happened but that is the claim being made. A vice president seems to only have limited authority to do so as they leave office. I suppose Biden could retroactively do so now but only a few partisans would take that seriously. Much like only a few very partisan trump hacks take that claim seriously.

Quote:

Trump's case is far worse because he refused to cooperate. Biden and Pence appear similar.

I agree with this, I still think its clearly illegal in both cases and neither will get prosecuted.

[ahhell]

Originally Posted by Sherkeu

Of course he went there. Not often, but he was there at the ribbon cutting and according to intern reports, showed up about once a month. The classified documents must have spent a year 'somewhere else" before moving into that office though since it didnt open until Feb. 2018 - likely the home Joe and Jill were renting in Virginia.

Here is Joe in his office at the Penn Biden Center:

https://penntoday.upenn.edu/sites/de...&itok=ZUNvA7k_

And is someone going to argue that he'd never been to home where some of the documents have been found? That must of been a house he bought for Hunter.

ETA, I'm in no way convinced any of this should be prosecuted. I mean, is the location of troops from 2016, who cares. Is it the names of secret agents in Russia?

[wareyin]

Originally Posted by Sherkeu

Of course he went there. Not often, but he was there at the ribbon cutting and according to intern reports, showed up about once a month. The classified documents must have spent a year 'somewhere else" before moving into that office though since it didnt open until Feb. 2018 - likely the home Joe and Jill were renting in Virginia.

Here is Joe in his office at the Penn Biden Center:

https://penntoday.upenn.edu/sites/de...&itok=ZUNvA7k_

Previous claims were that he had never been in the office the docs were found in. But hey, he was at the ribbon cutting ceremony so literally anything and everything in the entire building was in his possession.

[wareyin]

Originally Posted by ahhell

Still, its plausible that Trump declassifed his stuff as he was leaving office. I don't think that happened but that is the claim being made.

Of course you will claim that despite all evidence it is possible for a President to declassify things without following declassification protocols. If that President had an R next to his name, anyway.

Originally Posted by ahhell

A vice president seems to only have limited authority to do so as they leave office.

Neither President or Vice President can declassify if they are not currently sitting Pres or Vice Pres. Both Pres and VP's declassification powers exist from when they are sworn in until they are no longer sitting.

Originally Posted by ahhell

I suppose Biden could retroactively do so now but only a few partisans would take that seriously. Much like only a few very partisan trump hacks take that claim seriously.

Biden, as the current President, is entirely able to declassify these documents now. It would be a partisan attitude to think the sitting President could not declassify documents, but I do realize that to some if there is a D next to their name then nothing they do should be taken seriously.

Originally Posted by ahhell

I agree with this, I still think its clearly illegal in both cases and neither will get prosecuted.

As a layperson with absolutely zero relevant expertise in the law, your opinion on whether it's clearly illegal or not means nothing. But thank you for sharing it.

[ahhell]

Originally Posted by wareyin

Of course you will claim that despite all evidence it is possible for a President to declassify things without following declassification protocols. If that President had an R next to his name, anyway.

How often and how exactly to I have to clear my throat to say, Trump is worse and that excuse is BS but its still possible.

Quote:

Neither President or Vice President can declassify if they are not currently sitting Pres or Vice Pres. Both Pres and VP's declassification powers exist from when they are sworn in until they are no longer sitting.



Biden, as the current President, is entirely able to declassify these documents now. It would be a partisan attitude to think the sitting President could not declassify documents, but I do realize that to some if there is a D next to their name then nothing they do should be taken seriously.

Can Biden as the current president go back and declassify document before his staff removed them from the VPs office? Because Trump can't go back in time and declassify documents but he might have(almost certainly not) done so while he was still the POTUS before he left office.

Again, I don't believe it but the argument that his cronies have been using is that he declassified the documents in the past, not after he left office.

Quote:

As a layperson with absolutely zero relevant expertise in the law, your opinion on whether it's clearly illegal or not means nothing. But thank you for sharing it.

As a layperson your opinion is as relevant.

I will leave to the audience to decide which layperson is making the best argument.

And you keep ignoring the fact that there have been documents found in multiple locations that Biden either the owner of or renter of. They have literally been found in his garage.

[Sherkeu]

Originally Posted by wareyin

Previous claims were that he had never been in the office the docs were found in.

Any source claiming he never went there didnt take 30 seconds to check it.

Quote:

But hey, he was at the ribbon cutting ceremony so literally anything and everything in the entire building was in his possession.

No.
He was there, at the Penn Biden Center, which sits across from the capitol building, multiple times. Not just once, not just twice, not just for the opening, and he did, on many occasions, use his personal office there.

Sometime, after the opening in Feb 2018, unreturned classified documents that Biden was personally in posession of during his time as VP, and had taken with him upon vacating the office in early 2017, also arrived there.

[wareyin]

Originally Posted by ahhell

How often and how exactly to I have to clear my throat to say, Trump is worse and that excuse is BS but its still possible.

It's probably not your clearing your throat, but your dogged insistence that it's "possible" Trump could have declassified docs without following the declassification procedure while in the same post insisting that Biden as current President can't declassify documents now. As in:

Originally Posted by ahhell

Can Biden as the current president go back and declassify document before his staff removed them from the VPs office? Because Trump can't go back in time and declassify documents but he might have(almost certainly not) done so while he was still the POTUS before he left office.

Biden very much could have declassified the documents in question before they became public knowledge, since they were found while he was (and is) the current President. He hasn't, but your dogged insistence that he can't combined with your dogged insistence that Trump's claims are possible aren't doing you any favors.

Originally Posted by ahhell

Again, I don't believe it but the argument that his cronies have been using is that he declassified the documents in the past, not after he left office.
As a layperson your opinion is as relevant.

Good thing I'm not the one claiming that the sitting President is guilty of illegally keeping documents then, isn't it?

Originally Posted by ahhell

I will leave to the audience to decide which layperson is making the best argument.

And you keep ignoring the fact that there have been documents found in multiple locations that Biden either the owner of or renter of. They have literally been found in his garage.

I'm not ignoring that. I'm pointing out that Biden, as the VP, was absolutely not the guy packing up his office, or even personally directing which boxes go where.

[wareyin]

Originally Posted by Sherkeu

Any source claiming he never went there didnt take 30 seconds to check it.



No.
He was there, at the Penn Biden Center, which sits across from the capitol building, multiple times. Not just once, not just twice, not just for the opening, and he did, on many occasions, use his personal office there.

Hold on, are you under the impression that the Penn Biden Center consists of one room, and one room only? And, that because Biden's name is in the title, he is in sole possession of everything in the entire building?

Originally Posted by Sherkeu

Sometime, after the opening in Feb 2018, unreturned classified documents that Biden was personally in posession of during his time as VP, and had taken with him upon vacating the office in early 2017, also arrived there.

I highlighted the part that you're assuming. Can you flesh that out for me? Did Biden personally pack every item in his office? And then personally load every single box into a uhaul, and personally drive them to the office where he had planned to work after he left Gov't service but never actually did?

ahhell dodged this question, so I'm going to ask you: Have you ever had an office moved? Because this blinkered idea that Biden packed stuff up and took it with him wouldn't fly if he was a Walmart store manager, much less the VP of the USA.

[Sherkeu]

Originally Posted by wareyin

Hold on, are you under the impression that the Penn Biden Center consists of one room, and one room only? And, that because Biden's name is in the title, he is in sole possession of everything in the entire building?

Take a look. I did. It is 13,800 sq feet.
https://randcc.com/projects/upenn-biden-center/#
Biden's office is the last slide, with blue walls.

Quote:

I highlighted the part that you're assuming. Can you flesh that out for me? Did Biden personally pack every item in his office? And then personally load every single box into a uhaul, and personally drive them to the office where he had planned to work after he left Gov't service but never actually did?

ahhell dodged this question, so I'm going to ask you: Have you ever had an office moved? Because this blinkered idea that Biden packed stuff up and took it with him wouldn't fly if he was a Walmart store manager, much less the VP of the USA.

According to the law, Biden is responsible to handle any classified documents given to his office and in his possession according to proper procedures in a timely fashion. If a few dozen end up in boxes, for many years, and migrate around, it is still his responsibility.

In the private sector, if a person takes sensitive company documents upon termination of employment (like supplier contracts, with prices or proprietary data), in violation of a contract or NDA signed with that company and in violation of those policies such an employee had agreed to, they are also legally culpable for violating the contract.

[wareyin]

Originally Posted by Sherkeu

Take a look. I did. It is 13,800 sq feet.
https://randcc.com/projects/upenn-biden-center/#
Biden's office is the last slide, with blue walls.

I didn't see any slides, just a promo by the contractor for building the building.

Originally Posted by Sherkeu

According to the law, Biden is responsible to handle any classified documents given to his office and in his possession according to proper procedures in a timely fashion. If a few dozen end up in boxes, for many years, and migrate around, it is still his responsibility.

In the private sector, if a person takes sensitive company documents upon termination of employment (like supplier contracts, with prices or proprietary data), in violation of a contract or NDA signed with that company and in violation of those policies such an employee had agreed to, they are also legally culpable for violating the contract.

Hmmm, yet another poster making legal declarations that...well let's just say the courts and prosecutors don't agree with your claims. But, hey, let's just put you down as another in the column of "Biden is culpable for the actions of others taken without his knowledge, direction, or request" if it makes you feel better.

[ahhell]

Originally Posted by wareyin

It's probably not your clearing your throat, but your dogged insistence that it's "possible" Trump could have declassified docs without following the declassification procedure while in the same post insisting that Biden as current President can't declassify documents now. As in:



Biden very much could have declassified the documents in question before they became public knowledge, since they were found while he was (and is) the current President. He hasn't, but your dogged insistence that he can't combined with your dogged insistence that Trump's claims are possible aren't doing you any favors.



Good thing I'm not the one claiming that the sitting President is guilty of illegally keeping documents then, isn't it?



I'm not ignoring that. I'm pointing out that Biden, as the VP, was absolutely not the guy packing up his office, or even personally directing which boxes go where.

A. Even if Biden Declassifies these documents now, it does not absolve him of having illegally possessed them between being the VP and the Pres.

B. Even if he was not the guy doing the packing, he was the guy who had classifed documents in is garage and two other locations that are places where it is more reasonable to say they were in his possession than not. He's either guilty of a crime or he's just irresponsible and absent minded.

C. With the exception of the obstruction, your defense of Biden is equal valid a defense of Trump.

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by ahhell

A. Even if Biden Declassifies these documents now, it does not absolve him of having illegally possessed them between being the VP and the Pres.

B. Even if he was not the guy doing the packing, he was the guy who had classifed documents in is garage and two other locations that are places where it is more reasonable to say they were in his possession than not. He's either guilty of a crime or he's just irresponsible and absent minded.

C. With the exception of the obstruction, your defense of Biden is equal valid a defense of Trump.

Not true. Unless he knowingly took them AND with the intent of keeping them, he did not commit a crime.

Quote:

Whoever, being an officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States, and, by virtue of his office, employment, position, or contract, becomes possessed of documents or materials containing classified information of the United States, knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than five years, or both.

If he did not take them, authorize them to be taken, or know they were packed away in his home or office, how does that meet the above law or make him "irresponsible and absent minded"? Hint: it doesn't.

Trump's transition move was a cluster **** because of his delay in getting his act together due to his fight to have the election declared invalid. "It was in those tumultuous moments that — investigators allege — boxes containing classified material were packed and sent to Trump’s Mar-a-Lago home."

[Suddenly]

Originally Posted by wareyin

I didn't see any slides, just a promo by the contractor for building the building.



Hmmm, yet another poster making legal declarations that...well let's just say the courts and prosecutors don't agree with your claims. But, hey, let's just put you down as another in the column of "Biden is culpable for the actions of others taken without his knowledge, direction, or request" if it makes you feel better.

It's the difference between civil and criminal liability.

There is a smattering of grounds for suit for damages against Biden were these documents the formula for Coca-Cola or some such and there was economic harm.

A criminal case? Not so far and probably not ever.

xxxx

Even if we assume for the sake of argument that Trump and Biden were both identically kinda negligent in handling docs sort of like losing control of a car on an icy road and having a fender-bender Trump is the one leaving the scene and then lying to the cops about it while Biden is calmly calling the insurance and giving a statement. One of these is a crime.

[ahhell]

Originally Posted by Suddenly

It's the difference between civil and criminal liability.

There is a smattering of grounds for suit for damages against Biden were these documents the formula for Coca-Cola or some such and there was economic harm.

A criminal case? Not so far and probably not ever.

xxxx

Even if we assume for the sake of argument that Trump and Biden were both identically kinda negligent in handling docs sort of like losing control of a car on an icy road and having a fender-bender Trump is the one leaving the scene and then lying to the cops about it while Biden is calmly calling the insurance and giving a statement. One of these is a crime.

I agree with this. The real difference between Trump and Biden on this is mostly obstruction. Otherwise they both have roughly equal plausible denialibility. Well, except Trump has clear pattern of behavior that indicates he would do this on purpose or negligence where biden has a clear pattern of behavior where he would do this out of negligence.