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Old 10th January 2023, 05:14 PM   #121
Beelzebuddy
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Why this guy still has fans in the West I can't figure out., except they hate the West.
He has a couple here, thpugh.
Because we did him dirty. He exposed real, harmful, and illegal behavior on the part of the US government. Yet instead of correcting ourselves we chased him into the arms of an enemy nation. Snowden didn't go running to Vlad, his plane had a layover in Moscow when the US revoked his passport and he wasn't allowed to leave for weeks. He was literally left with no choice. We were wrong with the program, we were wrong with how we treated him for calling us on it. We were in the wrong. 100%.

Why some people try to hide their double standards behind shooting the messenger is something I don't have to try hard to figure out because it's not all that subtle.
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Old 10th January 2023, 05:18 PM   #122
Bob001
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And,given what PUtin has done, that is OK with you????????
Considering that Putin routinely kills or imprisons his critics, yes, that's okay with me. Snowden would accomplish nothing by committing suicide.
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Old 10th January 2023, 05:22 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
.....
It's very naive, but we have seen plenty of that where Russia is involved. People with (possibly justified) grievances against our own governments don't realize how much worse it is in Russia. But some just don't care. they are so blinded by their hatred of one enemy that they will willingly jump into bed with another.
Who are you talking about? Nobody in the West sees Russia as a champion of human rights or rule of law. But concern and criticism about Western policies is not support for much worse policies in Russia or China or India or Myanmar or anywhere else.
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Old 11th January 2023, 05:08 PM   #124
Roger Ramjets
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Because we did him dirty.
But he did others dirty.

Quote:
Yet instead of correcting ourselves we chased him into the arms of an enemy nation.
Nonsense. His own actions did that.

Quote:
Snowden didn't go running to Vad, his plane had a layover in Moscow when the US revoked his passport and he wasn't allowed to leave for weeks. He was literally left with no choice.
More nonsense. He had a choice, he just didn't like it.

Quote:
Why some people try to hide their double standards behind shooting the messenger is something I don't have to try hard to figure out because it's not all that subtle.
let's recap,

Edward Snowden
Quote:
In 2013, Snowden was hired by an NSA contractor, Booz Allen Hamilton, after previous employment with Dell and the CIA. Snowden says he gradually became disillusioned with the programs with which he was involved, and that he tried to raise his ethical concerns through internal channels but was ignored. On May 20, 2013, Snowden flew to Hong Kong after leaving his job at an NSA facility in Hawaii, and in early June he revealed thousands of classified NSA documents...
There are more ethical ways of dealing with your disillusionment than skipping the country with a trove of stolen documents. But that's not the worst...

Quote:
Snowden said he took a pay cut to work at consulting firm Booz Allen Hamilton, where he sought employment in order to gather data and then release details of the NSA's worldwide surveillance activity.
Fundamentally dishonest. He deliberately betrayed the trust of those around him as well as the country at large - then ran into the arms of our enemies, not having the integrity to stand up for what he professed to believe in.

Now he's aiding the enemy. There's a word for that - traitor.
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Old 11th January 2023, 05:11 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Who are you talking about? Nobody in the West sees Russia as a champion of human rights or rule of law.
I didn't say anyone did. But in some people's minds it doesn't matter that they aren't. Their only goal is to rip us down for not doing a perfect job of it, and if Russia can help them with that...
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Old 13th January 2023, 12:51 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
.....
Fundamentally dishonest. He deliberately betrayed the trust of those around him as well as the country at large - then ran into the arms of our enemies, not having the integrity to stand up for what he professed to believe in.

Now he's aiding the enemy. There's a word for that - traitor.
You don't seem to understand that Snowden revealed a massive illegal U.S. operation to spy on its own citizens. That's not something to be minimized. And Snowden didn't head for Russia. He was trapped there after the U.S. revoked his passport while he was on the way to Ecuador via Cuba. And he's done nothing to promote Russian interests except make a new life in a country that doesn't want to lock him up forever. Traitor to whom? Not to me.
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Old 13th January 2023, 09:06 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Because we did him dirty. He exposed real, harmful, and illegal behavior on the part of the US government. Yet instead of correcting ourselves we chased him into the arms of an enemy nation. Snowden didn't go running to Vlad, his plane had a layover in Moscow when the US revoked his passport and he wasn't allowed to leave for weeks. He was literally left with no choice. We were wrong with the program, we were wrong with how we treated him for calling us on it. We were in the wrong. 100%.

Why some people try to hide their double standards behind shooting the messenger is something I don't have to try hard to figure out because it's not all that subtle.
I don't see the problem with him being pursued for violating the law. One can reveal illegal activity and also break the law while doing it
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Old 15th January 2023, 03:54 PM   #128
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I don't know what to think really. I haven't looked into it enough, but I will now.

Pro Snowden:
Nobody else blew the whistle on this stuff. How many knew?

He made efforts to bring this to the attention of the right people first. Enough effort? I don't know. We would never know about it otherwise though, and yes what the NSA was doing, to us, was illegal and unconstitutional.

Ya I wanna know about that.

Anti-Snowden
There are reasons our country keeps secrets, some good same bad. There are laws and he broke them.


Right now, looking at my government, I don't trust them one bit. Never have. I don't care who is in control. Nobody should trust their government. So I hesitate to condemn someone who revealed shenanigans like Snowden did.

I don't know enough about it right now to take a side.

Who has more reason to lie, Snowden or the government? What did Snowden have to gain personally by doing this? Nothing that I can see.

I don't think Snowden is brilliant at all. I've seen interviews where they treat him like some all-knowing intelligence expert which he is nowhere near being.

I don't have a firm opinion as I don't know enough about it really. I lean toward supporting Snowden. I know the government will lie about this and doom and gloom everything to protect itself. All governments lie to their people.

I believe Snowden thought he was doing the right thing.

Last edited by mgidm86; 15th January 2023 at 03:55 PM.
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Old 22nd January 2023, 06:30 AM   #129
mikegriffith1
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Reports say that Edward Snowden is seeking Russian citizenship while retaining his U.S. citizenship. What should ultimately happen to him? He caused tremendous embarrassment to the U.S. intelligence establishment, but I'm not convinced he did any lasting damage to the nation or to any individuals. I think an argument could be made for a plea bargain that would include a felony conviction but no jail time. Does the U.S. really need to demand more?
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...-of-future-son
The fact that Snowden would apply for citizenship in such a totalitarian state as Russia, especially while Russia is busy trying to rape Ukraine, tells you all you need to know about Snowden.

Snowden compromised national security far more than Donald Trump did with his careless handling of some classified documents, yet I see no liberals calling for a sensible, balanced approach toward Trump's offense.

Snowden violated his non-disclosure oath and his employment contract because he appointed himself judge and jury of American foreign policy. He deserves to spend a few years in jail.
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Old 22nd January 2023, 06:43 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by mikegriffith1 View Post
The fact that Snowden would apply for citizenship in such a totalitarian state as Russia, especially while Russia is busy trying to rape Ukraine, tells you all you need to know about Snowden.

Snowden compromised national security far more than Donald Trump did with his careless handling of some classified documents, yet I see no liberals calling for a sensible, balanced approach toward Trump's offense.

Snowden violated his non-disclosure oath and his employment contract because he appointed himself judge and jury of American foreign policy. He deserves to spend a few years in jail.
Someone can't spell "whistle blower"
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