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Old 3rd December 2022, 10:24 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I disagree with that. He didn't deny the Holocaust, just the raw numbers. I don't think that makes him a denier that horrible atrocity occurred. A lot of people question the numbers.

It's an estimate, and the most widely accepted one, not a precise number. Do you really want to debate this?

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I don't see Kanye as having evil intent; I see him as relatively ignorant and insane.
Willfully ignorant. A piss-poor excuse.
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Old 3rd December 2022, 10:41 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
It's an estimate, and the most widely accepted one, not a precise number. Do you really want to debate this?

I don't particularly care about the exact number. I'm just saying that Kanye questioning what is admittedly not a precise number, does not make him a Holocaust Denier in my book. People often get fixated on the numbers and lose sight of the atrocities.

Now if he starts saying it is a Zionist lie, and that no Jews were killed, and that there was no intent to exterminate them, then yeah, he is right there.

I think we cannot arbitrarily assign things such as willful ignorance, while in the same sentence labeling him as being out of his damn mind.

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Old 3rd December 2022, 11:09 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I don't particularly care about the exact number. I'm just saying that Kanye questioning what is admittedly not a precise number, does not make him a Holocaust Denier in my book. People often get fixated on the numbers and lose sight of the atrocities.
I guess you do want to debate this. You say "a lot of people question the numbers." Who questions the numbers? Any serious historians who have actually researched the question? And further, he didn't question the numbers, he asserted that the 6 million figure was "factually incorrect."

Quote:
Ye didn’t answer directly. Instead, and somehow this is being glossed over, he replied, “And he didn’t kill 6 million Jews, that’s just, like, factually incorrect.”
A statement like that without any further explanation, is not questioning, it is denying. Upon what historical authority does he rely for this assertion? Obviously he didn't personally research the question. The fact that the number is necessarily an estimate does not make it "factually" incorrect. We will never know the precise number.

I'm not a historian but I can Google information and read Wikipedia (which has bibliological references to back this up).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust#Death_toll

Quote:
The Jews killed represented around one third of world Jewry[417] and about two-thirds of European Jewry, based on a pre-war figure of 9.7 million Jews in Europe.[418] Most heavily concentrated in the east, the pre-war Jewish population in Europe was 3.5 million in Poland; 3 million in the Soviet Union; nearly 800,000 in Romania, and 700,000 in Hungary. Germany had over 500,000.[416] The death camps in occupied Poland accounted for half the Jews murdered. At Auschwitz, the number of Jewish victims was 960,000;[419] Treblinka 870,000;[164] Bełżec 600,000;[160] Chełmno 320,000;[161] Sobibór 250,000;[163] and Majdanek 79,000.[162] The most commonly cited death toll is the six million given by Adolf Eichmann to SS member Wilhelm Höttl, who signed an affidavit mentioning this figure in 1945.[420][ac] Historians' estimates range from 4,204,000 to 7,000,000.[422] According to Yad Vashem, "[a]ll the serious research" confirms that between five and six million Jews were murdered.[ac]
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Old 3rd December 2022, 11:46 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I disagree with that. He didn't deny the Holocaust, just the raw numbers. I don't think that makes him a denier that horrible atrocity occurred. A lot of people question the numbers.

I don't see Kanye as having evil intent; I see him as relatively ignorant and insane.
It looks as if we're circling the usual right wing escape route: he can't be held accountable because he's too stupid and crazy to be responsible.
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Old 4th December 2022, 12:16 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
When one of the most famous people on Earth goes full neo-Nazi, it's going to get attention. Of course.
I guess this just really dates me because I couldn't name a single piece of his music or anything about him except I think he was once married to a Kardashian...can't say which one because I don't pay any attention to them either.
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Old 4th December 2022, 05:33 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I guess this just really dates me because I couldn't name a single piece of his music or anything about him except I think he was once married to a Kardashian...can't say which one because I don't pay any attention to them either.
Wasn't that Kim the one who did the sex tape that made the Kardashians famous?
Doesn't surprise me Trump has partied with Racists and Anti Semites before Like Dr. Jerome Corsi. Republicans decided these people were OK because the need them now too win elections!
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Old 4th December 2022, 07:25 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I disagree with that. He didn't deny the Holocaust, just the raw numbers. I don't think that makes him a denier that horrible atrocity occurred. A lot of people neo-nazis question the numbers.

I don't see Kanye as having evil intent; I see him as relatively ignorant and insane.
Apparently you're unaware that JAQing off the numbers is part and parcel of Holocaust Denial 101.

Hence I fixed it for you.
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Old 4th December 2022, 07:30 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Apparently you're unaware that JAQing off the numbers is part and parcel of Holocaust Denial 101.

Hence I fixed it for you.

I don't think one has to be a neo-nazi to question the numbers. But we have other topics for that.
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Old 4th December 2022, 07:38 AM   #89
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He loves Hitler. He defends Hitler. He threatens Jews with violence. He's closely associated with a brazen neo-nazi. And he JAQs off the Holocaust, as do neo-nazis.

And yet you're confident he's not a Holocaust denier.

You're reaching new lows here, and that's no small accomplishment.
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Old 4th December 2022, 07:41 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I don't think one has to be a neo-nazi to question the numbers. But we have other topics for that.
He didn't "question" the number, he flat-out asserted that it was "factually incorrect."

Really the only people who have any business questioning the numbers are serious historians who have actually studied the historical evidence.

Besides, he said other things like "I love Hitler" that sort of give the game away.
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Old 4th December 2022, 07:43 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
He loves Hitler. He defends Hitler. He threatens Jews with violence. He's closely associated with a brazen neo-nazi. And he JAQs off the Holocaust, as do neo-nazis.

And yet you're confident he's not a Holocaust denier.

You're reaching new lows here, and that's no small accomplishment.

Look, I think the guy is crazy. And I have thought that for a long time. Nothing to do with this latest material. It isn't an excuse for him...it is an observation.

Half of the time I am pretty sure that even he doesn't know wtf he is talking about. I mean, how can someone say, "I love Jews...and I love Nazis"?? Batspit crazy and oblivious to reality.
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Old 4th December 2022, 07:48 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I don't think one has to be a neo-nazi to question the numbers. But we have other topics for that.
You know, there really is no need to bend over backwards so far to extend charity to a person who loves Hitler and the Nazis and to wonder aloud if anything that sounds like a defence or the Nazis comes from a good place. Do you really do these kinds of mental gymnastics for other, non-fascist, people?
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Old 4th December 2022, 08:52 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I guess this just really dates me because I couldn't name a single piece of his music or anything about him except I think he was once married to a Kardashian...can't say which one because I don't pay any attention to them either.
Yes, but one can, in a way, define his fame by that very measure. I too don't think I've ever heard more than a phrase or two of his music, and if asked which Kardashian he married I wouldn't remember, because they're all alien to me. I don't care what they do and don't follow it. And yet, we must admit that despite all this, we do know who these people are, and hear about their alarms and excursions and foolishness.

I couldn't name the heads of major corporations, the leaders of numerous nations around the world, or most of the members of our own cabinet. But I know who Ye is. The reason for this, or the justification for it, is secondary. For whatever reason, he really is that famous (or infamous if you prefer).
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Old 4th December 2022, 09:12 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I don't think one has to be a neo-nazi to question the numbers. But we have other topics for that.
I think you're using a standard to justify one thing while having used just the opposite to justify others.

If Ye were a person of demonstrated intelligence and scholarship, one might take his statement as questioning the numbers, even if one disputed it. But you have just finished saying (with good reason I think) that he's crazy and ignorant. When that person combines anti-semitism with admiration for Hitler and his fine accomplishments, with an assertion that the dimension of the holocaust is a lie.. that person is not just "questioning the numbers."

I don't think you can have it both ways. You can't pass over his outrageous statements with the excuse that he's a deluded idiot who doesn't understand what he's saying, and then presume that one of those statements is a serious one free of the load the others carry.
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Old 4th December 2022, 02:39 PM   #95
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Defending Nazi and Hitler is mainstream Republican these days.
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.
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Old 4th December 2022, 03:34 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Look, I think the guy is crazy. And I have thought that for a long time. Nothing to do with this latest material. It isn't an excuse for him...it is an observation.

Half of the time I am pretty sure that even he doesn't know wtf he is talking about. I mean, how can someone say, "I love Jews...and I love Nazis"?? Batspit crazy and oblivious to reality.
He's a neo-Nazi Holocaust denier, and a putrid, bullying individual. I couldn't care less about his emotional problems.
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Old 4th December 2022, 03:46 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I disagree with that. He didn't deny the Holocaust, just the raw numbers. I don't think that makes him a denier that horrible atrocity occurred. A lot of people question the numbers.

I don't see Kanye as having evil intent; I see him as relatively ignorant and insane.

What total crap.
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Old 4th December 2022, 03:47 PM   #98
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Someone should tell Kayne what Hitler really thought about Blacks.
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Old 4th December 2022, 04:07 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Someone should tell Kayne what Hitler really thought about Blacks.
What makes you think that would bother him?
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Old 4th December 2022, 04:34 PM   #100
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Imagine that Kanye isn't a holocaust denier. He's just a stickler for historical accuracy when he questions the numbers.

Originally Posted by Kanye West, in the disingenuous imagination of apologists
Six million may not be accurate. It's closer to 5.9 million. But of course that constitutes a holocaust, and it's one of the most horrific events in history.
Ya sure.
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Old 4th December 2022, 05:42 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I don't particularly care about the exact number. I'm just saying that Kanye questioning what is admittedly not a precise number, does not make him a Holocaust Denier in my book. People often get fixated on the numbers and lose sight of the atrocities.

Now if he starts saying it is a Zionist lie, and that no Jews were killed, and that there was no intent to exterminate them, then yeah, he is right there.

I think we cannot arbitrarily assign things such as willful ignorance, while in the same sentence labeling him as being out of his damn mind.
You do know that questioning the number is an example of holocaust denial, don't you? And, by the way, you don't get to define holocaust denial.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial

Quote:
Holocaust deniers make one or more of the following false statements:[6][7][8]

Nazi Germany's Final Solution was aimed only at deporting Jews and did not include their extermination.
Nazi authorities did not use extermination camps and gas chambers for the genocidal mass murder of Jews.
The actual number of Jews murdered is significantly lower than the accepted figure of approximately 6 million, typically around a tenth of that figure.
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Old 4th December 2022, 06:26 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Look, I think the guy is crazy. And I have thought that for a long time. Nothing to do with this latest material. It isn't an excuse for him...it is an observation.

Half of the time I am pretty sure that even he doesn't know wtf he is talking about. I mean, how can someone say, "I love Jews...and I love Nazis"?? Batspit crazy and oblivious to reality.
And yet....you defend almost everything he says with very odd excuses.
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Old 4th December 2022, 07:30 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I don't particularly care about the exact number. I'm just saying that Kanye questioning what is admittedly not a precise number, does not make him a Holocaust Denier in my book. People often get fixated on the numbers and lose sight of the atrocities.

Now if he starts saying it is a Zionist lie, and that no Jews were killed, and that there was no intent to exterminate them, then yeah, he is right there.

I think we cannot arbitrarily assign things such as willful ignorance, while in the same sentence labeling him as being out of his damn mind.
Body of work.
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Old 5th December 2022, 06:54 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Warp12
I'm just saying that Kanye questioning what is admittedly not a precise number, does not make him a Holocaust Denier in my book. People often get fixated on the numbers and lose sight of the atrocities
Jesus ******* Christ! The numbers are a ******* estimate, but millions were murdered which is why it is called a god damned Holocaust. What difference would it make it the numbers are off a few hundred thousand, or even a few million? Hitler's attempt to annihilate the Jews is all we need remember about him, not if he made the trains run on time, or if he invented the highway system. Also too, there's no good reason to cut West any slack for this JAQing off attempt.

Not even remotely edgy.
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Old 5th December 2022, 06:56 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Jesus ******* Christ! The numbers are a ******* estimate, but millions were murdered which is why it is called a god damned Holocaust. What difference would it make it the numbers are off a few hundred thousand, or even a few million? Hitler's attempt to annihilate the Jews is all we need remember about him, not if he made the trains run on time, or if he invented the highway system. Also too, there's no good reason to cut West any slack for this JAQing off attempt.

Not even remotely edgy.

I guess you didn't read this post from earlier:

Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I don't particularly care about the exact number. I'm just saying that Kanye questioning what is admittedly not a precise number, does not make him a Holocaust Denier in my book. People often get fixated on the numbers and lose sight of the atrocities.

Now if he starts saying it is a Zionist lie, and that no Jews were killed, and that there was no intent to exterminate them, then yeah, he is right there.

Seems like we are in agreement, tbh.
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Old 5th December 2022, 07:30 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I guess you didn't read this post from earlier . . .
I read it.

Quote:
I don't particularly care about the exact number. I'm just saying that Kanye questioning what is admittedly not a precise number, does not make him a Holocaust Denier in my book
If you don't care about the number, why would you then point out that it is "admittedly" not a precise number?. You know, If you don't care about it?

In my book, it seems as if you do, in fact, care about the number.

Quote:
Seems like we are in agreement, tbh.
So no, not in agreement, and not edgy either.
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Old 5th December 2022, 07:32 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
So no, not in agreement, and not edgy either.

I definitely see it as we are in agreement on the matter. The precise numbers are not as significant as recognizing the atrocities.

If you disagree with this, then yes, we are not on the same page.

I have only seen Kanye dispute the numbers, not the atrocities. Maybe that is still to come.

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Old 5th December 2022, 07:38 AM   #108
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I have only seen bears walk in the woods, not **** in the woods. Maybe that is still to come.
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Old 5th December 2022, 08:07 AM   #109
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If Kanye is merely a stickler for historical accuracy (guffaw), and he actually recognizes the atrocity of the holocaust, yet he loves Hitler anyway ... that's even more demented.
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Old 5th December 2022, 08:26 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I definitely see it as we are in agreement on the matter. The precise numbers are not as significant as recognizing the atrocities.

If you disagree with this, then yes, we are not on the same page.

I have only seen Kanye dispute the numbers, not the atrocities. Maybe that is still to come.
You claim to not "particularly care" about the numbers, yet you continue to bring them up. There likely can be no precise numbers (maybe they're even larger than estimates) so there is no real reason to bring them up, unless maybe in an attempt to minimize them, as I believe West is attempting to do. When he praises Hitler, and claims to "love" Nazis, as he did in his interview with the deplorable Alex Jones, he's not really fooling anyone, and to pretend otherwise seems disingenuous, and again, not edgy.

So yes, we are in disagreement about the artist who now calls himself Ye, and though he is clearly ill, he is still an asswipe
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Old 5th December 2022, 08:31 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
If Kanye is merely a stickler for historical accuracy (guffaw), and he actually recognizes the atrocity of the holocaust, yet he loves Hitler anyway ... that's even more demented.
His cheese has slid off his rocker. Although he may be attempting to be an Edgelord. Likely both, and still an asswipe.
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Old 5th December 2022, 08:37 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I definitely see it as we are in agreement on the matter. The precise numbers are not as significant as recognizing the atrocities.

If you disagree with this, then yes, we are not on the same page.

I have only seen Kanye dispute the numbers, not the atrocities. Maybe that is still to come.
Kanye was not engaged in a discussion of the details of the holocaust. He was engaged in a discussion about his admiration for Hitler, punctuated by anti-semitism and outrageous factual error, and threw in reference to the inaccuracy of holocaust accounts without further elaboration, including any indication that his dispute was about just the number rather than the murders themselves. You accuse others of over-interpretation, but it is your own interpretation of the statement that presumes the denial was of the exact number, and not the whole fact, and your own extrapolation that presumes he might have continued with any kind of reasonable explanation despite the statement occurring after a salvo of unreasonable statements.

If you have a red flag behind the seat of your truck, it's not the same thing as marching at the head of a torchlight parade waving it. It means a different thing. Context really does matter.
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Old 5th December 2022, 09:25 AM   #113
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Denialism of factual events or occurrences is, quite often, not done by denying the entire occurrence but of some of the details. Their goal is to inject doubt and then grow that seed of doubt. This is seen with climate change denialism, moon landings denialism and other conspiracy theories. It's idiocy unsuccessfully disguised as reasonable skepticism.
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Old 5th December 2022, 09:25 AM   #114
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I believe Ye thinks he can break the Matrix that is the World by glitching out of it when the keeps on banging on about Hitler being great and over no-go areas of polite discourse.
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Old 5th December 2022, 11:55 AM   #115
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The Kanye reddit forum was turned into a Taylor Swift forum for a couple of days, now primarily a Holocaust awareness reddit.
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Old 5th December 2022, 12:09 PM   #116
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The only reason that Ye has not been caught in a butterfly net and taken away in a white van is that money completely trumps sense in the USA. Ye is still (relatively) rich, so he is given license, encouragement and even applause to do and say whatever flits through is addled brain today. He isn't the only example.
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Old 5th December 2022, 01:33 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I don't think one has to be a neo-nazi to question the numbers. But we have other topics for that.
One doesn't have to be in theory, but that is in fact the way it shakes out in reality.
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Old 5th December 2022, 02:36 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
It looks as if we're circling the usual right wing escape route: he can't be held accountable because he's too stupid and crazy to be responsible.
But yet he should be President once again....
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Old 6th December 2022, 12:07 AM   #119
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If you listen to Ye's comments, I think it's clear that he is using "love" as a not-so-clever substitute for "screw you".
He thinks he has found the Christian Loophole of "loving your enemy", which he understands to mean that you should hide behind declaration of love whilst working to exterminate them.
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Old 6th December 2022, 05:32 AM   #120
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In yet another typical Ye move, Ye now says that Jewish people should "forgive Hitler".

To wit, ....

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/...102235616.html

Kanye West to Proud Boys Founder: ‘Jewish People, Forgive Hitler’

Less than a week after Kanye West praised Adolf Hitler in an interview with conspiracy theorist Alex Jones, West – flanked by white supremacist Nick Fuentes – sat down with Proud Boys founder Gavin McInnes to demand that Jewish people “forgive Hitler.”

...

At one point, McInnes gives West a hypothetical question. “So you’re president of the United States,” says McInnes. “It’s day one and someone walks in and they go, ‘So what are we going to do about these Jews?’ What do ya say?” West replies, eliciting laughs from Fuentes and McInnes: “Jews should work for Christians. I’ll hire a Jewish person in a second if I knew they weren’t a spy and I could look through their phone and follow through their house and have a camera all in their living room.”

...

West ends the interview by saying he “loves everyone” and says that “the rules of the country will be based on the bible.”

“Jewish people can’t tell me who I can love and who I can’t love,” he continues. “You can’t say, you can’t force your pain on everyone else. Jewish people, forgive Hitler today.”
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