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Old 20th December 2022, 11:52 AM   #361
Thermal
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
I have friends who do 'Princess Story Hour' and 'Super Hero Story Hour'. Do you think those are also done to be fetishized?

It is truly, deeply, funny how much trouble people have letting go of their initial preconceptions, in this case of drag.

EDIT: Like some people got half mast at Misses Doubtfire and it's everyone else's problem now for some reason.
It's not that. What were Mrs Doubtfire and Some Like it Hot and Bosom Buddies? Comedies. They were solely intended to be a mockery of men trying to pass as women.

Do people attend drag shows to politely applaud the fashion choices? Doubt it. Even Ru Paul still gets big smiles and laughs and whoops.

Drag is fine. It's a form of entertainment, but we are kidding ourselves if we are pretending it isn't done on stage for a laugh. I'm not sure that's the most forward thinking kind of entertainment (laughing at men who present as women), but whatevs.
.
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Old 20th December 2022, 11:54 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Maybe nobody thought of it until you did. Get out your old leisure suit and call the library.
I'm thinking I could rock a Jeff Spicoli Story Hour.
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Old 20th December 2022, 12:41 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
#whenithinkaboutthemiItouchmyself

Get real.
Last time I looked around and stomped my feet on the floor and threw stuff I detected a distinct odor of reality. And yet whatever is contained in that hashtag, I'm willing to bet I don't. In fact, I don't think I've ever met anyone in the thing I so naively consider the real world who does. So not only will I refrain from investigating it, but I will question the relevancy of it.

Now fit women in athletic attire....uh oh, oh no, they're heading for the library!
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Old 20th December 2022, 01:17 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
It's not that. What were Mrs Doubtfire and Some Like it Hot and Bosom Buddies? Comedies. They were solely intended to be a mockery of men trying to pass as women.

Do people attend drag shows to politely applaud the fashion choices? Doubt it. Even Ru Paul still gets big smiles and laughs and whoops.

Drag is fine. It's a form of entertainment, but we are kidding ourselves if we are pretending it isn't done on stage for a laugh. I'm not sure that's the most forward thinking kind of entertainment (laughing at men who present as women), but whatevs.
.
Ok, let's leave aside that we've already found one thing you agree is a point of drag that isn't sexual fetish (assuming you don't also think comedy is a sexual fetish), yes, sometimes the point is to enjoy the creativity of the fashion choices.

Like with the other examples that you, I guess, agree aren't universally sexual fetish either who also do story hours? Your goalpost move from 'sexual fetish' to 'comedy' doesn't even make sense in this light. Kids often like to have stories told to them by people in cool or pretty costumes. What about this is confusing you?

Your motivations and associations are not universal. I strongly believe this sentence is the root of many of the issues people just won't move away from. If you think drag is all sexual fetish (with some comedy), that's a you problem.
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Old 20th December 2022, 01:45 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
No, but I'm sure you'll find that recognizable celebrities are expected to pose for pictures and autographs pretty relentlessly, athletes included.
Yeah, they sure do. Happens all of the time. I'm not sure how it's relevant though.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Do you think a kid who is young enough to attend a story hour would have any reservations about saying "there's the man who wears a dress!"
No, I don't think kids would have any reservations about saying something similar. Probably even being inquisitive by asking, "Why is that man wearing a dress?" or the like. That's good. Kids ask questions all of the mother ******* time. I have a 3 year old granddaughter who is nothing but questions. She even asks "what?" before I finish saying a sentence sometimes. Would I ever hesitate to take her to a Drag Show Story Hour, not that they would ever ******* happen in Grand Forks, North Dakota, but the answer is no. I would have no issues because it sparks creativity, curiousness, and learning how to act in situations that aren't perfectly normal. We call it "experience" where I'm from.

I'm also not under the impression that the men that do this haven't been asked or heard those questions before, by people not as innocent as children.
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Old 20th December 2022, 01:58 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I'd say less, since animals do not particularly care when or where they get a little frisky and often engage in a similar form of sexuality to humans.

I have a friend whose dog would bring his bed out for company and then proceed to hump it for his audience. I would argue that drag queen story times have far less than that.
But no right thinking person thinks children should be exposed to pets. That just leads them down the perverted route that is pet play. First you have a dog then you want to be one.
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Old 20th December 2022, 02:16 PM   #367
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The list of things children should be protected from because someone has them as a paraphernalia.

Pets, balloons, pies to the face, clowns...

Of course so many of these people must think spanking fetishes are good things and should be promoted to kids.
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Old 20th December 2022, 02:19 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Sure, a dancing monkey is greatly entertaining. Then whenever you see a monkey, you expect it to dance for you.
No it's not, it's cruel and exploitative.
No I don't. Perhaps animal abuse doesn't amuse me as much as it evidently does you.
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Old 20th December 2022, 02:22 PM   #369
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Ok, let's leave aside that we've already found one thing you agree is a point of drag that isn't sexual fetish (assuming you don't also think comedy is a sexual fetish), yes, sometimes the point is to enjoy the creativity of the fashion choices.

Like with the other examples that you, I guess, agree aren't universally sexual fetish either who also do story hours? Your goalpost move from 'sexual fetish' to 'comedy' doesn't even make sense in this light. Kids often like to have stories told to them by people in cool or pretty costumes. What about this is confusing you?

Your motivations and associations are not universal. I strongly believe this sentence is the root of many of the issues people just won't move away from. If you think drag is all sexual fetish (with some comedy), that's a you problem.
It's very telling that you added "sexual" to "fetish" five times in the same post, when I never said it. In fact, my examples were non-sexual (mom jeans, Unfashionable dads, straight actors).

So you apparently agree that fetish and sexual fetish are different, or else why qualify it repeatedly? I think it's a strange niche for a storyteller, especially if the idea is "diversity", as claimed. Drag performances have been accepted far, far longer than actual parading sex fetishes. What I'm saying is that this is a somewhat inexplicable theme for story hours, unless the promoters have some kind of fixation on drag, that most don't feel that strongly about one way or the other, when presented as adult entertainment. It's just odd to want to have kids be ready to see...how is it being described here?... flamboyantly cross dressed men. That's a bit quirky, not to say, fixated, unless they also promote other types of normally comical attire? Or is it pretty much just parading the Drag Show that they are into?
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Old 20th December 2022, 02:40 PM   #370
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
And, more importantly, so what if it does?
We'll get the Sodom and Gomorrah treatment, that's what, and my homeowner's insurance doesn't cover acts of god.

Anyways...

It looks like the conservative jackbooted thugs have gotten the all ages nationally touring show, A Drag Queen Christmas downgraded to a +18 Mature event.

And just what are these church ladies clutching their pears over the poor innocent children being exposed to?

https://twitter.com/TaylerUSA/status...61787340480516
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Old 20th December 2022, 03:11 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
It's very telling that you added "sexual" to "fetish" five times in the same post, when I never said it.<>
Fetish:
  • a form of sexual desire in which gratification is strongly linked to a particular object or activity or a part of the body other than the sexual organs.
  • an inanimate object worshipped for its supposed magical powers or because it is considered to be inhabited by a spirit.
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Old 20th December 2022, 03:24 PM   #372
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
If this is not supposed to be fetishized, why is it a Drag Story Hour at all? Do they also sponsor Mom Jeans Story Hours? Three Seasons Ago Unfashionable Dad Story Hours?
Drag is a highly popular, time honoured form of entertainment. Back in the sixties when I was a kid I used to sit and watch Danny la Rue on the telly with my very conservative great aunts. I might ask why we didn't sit and watch Mom jeans variety show or the unfashionable dad's variety hour.
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Old 20th December 2022, 03:50 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
It's very telling that you added "sexual" to "fetish" five times in the same post, when I never said it. In fact, my examples were non-sexual (mom jeans, Unfashionable dads, straight actors).
LMAO! Dude, leaving aside the overwhelming connotation of 'fetish', the conversation you were responding to besides being about people wanting to restrict all drag events to people over the age of 18 was specifically discussing Warp12's view and WWBDD's that the reason to do this is that drag is sexual. Indeed WWBDD's, deeply wrong, argument that drag is all transvestic fetishism as listed in the DSM removes all ambiguity as to what way 'fetish' was being used.

And it's pretty damn funny for you to think that there aren't a lot of people who do have sexual fetishes for the things you listed.

If you really meant to argue that drag is all a non-sexual fetish, well...

Quote:
So you apparently agree that fetish and sexual fetish are different, or else why qualify it repeatedly? I think it's a strange niche for a storyteller, especially if the idea is "diversity", as claimed. Drag performances have been accepted far, far longer than actual parading sex fetishes. What I'm saying is that this is a somewhat inexplicable theme for story hours, unless the promoters have some kind of fixation on drag, that most don't feel that strongly about one way or the other, when presented as adult entertainment. It's just odd to want to have kids be ready to see...how is it being described here?... flamboyantly cross dressed men. That's a bit quirky, not to say, fixated, unless they also promote other types of normally comical attire? Or is it pretty much just parading the Drag Show that they are into?
...then you're just making another deeply silly argument. This is akin to saying 'why does this character have to be gay/black/a woman'? Reading events have many different themes and drag ones became popular because kids like the colorful outfits and characters, and get a lot of news because of the unlit candles who oppose them.

If the best you can come up with is 'you'd have to be a fetishist to combine these', that still leaves my objection intact. Your motivations and assumptions are not universal. No, one does not need to be a fetishists of any kind to happen upon that theme. Obviously.

I cosplay. One of my costumes is Freddy Fazbear from the horror jumpscare video game 'Five Nights at Freddy's'. Every time I've worn that outfit, of an animation bear haunted by the ghosts of murdered children who come alive at night to brutally kill more people, kids come up and love it. Absolutely adore the costume. Can you see how someone could say, 'hey, that'd be a great thing to read to kids in!' without being a fetishist? No?

Again, that's a you problem.
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Old 20th December 2022, 04:34 PM   #374
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
We'll get the Sodom and Gomorrah treatment, that's what, and my homeowner's insurance doesn't cover acts of god.

Anyways...

It looks like the conservative jackbooted thugs have gotten the all ages nationally touring show, A Drag Queen Christmas downgraded to a +18 Mature event.

And just what are these church ladies clutching their pears over the poor innocent children being exposed to?

https://twitter.com/TaylerUSA/status...61787340480516
Oh, no! Tayler Hansen is outraged:

Quote:
All Ages” Drag Queen Christmas Mega Thread ��

Yesterday, a blatantly sexualized show meant to groom children was hosted in Austin, TX.
I remember more simple times when these bozos' outrage at this time of year was all about the War of Christmas and how Christians are being discriminated against. Those days almost bring a tear to my eye.

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Old 20th December 2022, 04:38 PM   #375
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I'm going to be very clear here.

Originally Posted by WWBDD View Post
Are you claiming that drag shows are not burlesque shows hence not inherently sexual, therefore appropriate for children?
Drag shows are not inherently sexual.

They certainly can be, just like other kinds of stage performance. But there is nothing inherently sexual about wearing the clothes generally associated with a different gender.
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Old 20th December 2022, 04:39 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by WWBDD View Post
No, I'm discussing transvestic fetishism, which is a paraphilia.
That's not drag.
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Old 20th December 2022, 04:42 PM   #377
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
That's not drag.

One thing is important: we must always split hairs as much they allow.
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Old 20th December 2022, 04:43 PM   #378
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
We could look at that, even setting aside that the Pythons were deliberately trying to be ridiculous.

Shall we start with the Lumberjack Skit?
Sure. Shall we continue with the Pepperpots?
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Old 20th December 2022, 04:47 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
One thing is important: we must always split hairs as much they allow.
It is not splitting hairs to draw a distinction between drag and transvestitism. They're different things.
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Old 20th December 2022, 06:20 PM   #380
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This is sexually alluring? https://dinamartina.com
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Old 20th December 2022, 06:28 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
This is sexually alluring? https://dinamartina.com
Only to 6-year-olds, apparently.
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Old 20th December 2022, 09:29 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Really? Sexual orientation is not innate?
Really. No aspect of personality is innate.

How "it seems" to you is meaningless. Can you prove it, or at least support it? That's the question. You can't, many researchers wanted to prove it, but they found no evidence. Your opinion is dismissed.
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post

Who do we go to tell us what is abnormal?
Weird question. I've never needed to be told what's abnormal. It's unmistakable in my experience. I suppose a statistician or psychiatrist.
"Abnormal" isn't a value judgement
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edit for rule 0 and rule 12.
. Neither are "deviant", "norm" nor "deviate." They're statistical terms.
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Your church?
I'm a skeptic. I don't have a church.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Would you let your children see Mrs. Doubtfire? Or do you deny that Robin Williams performed in drag? How about Tom Hanks in Bosom Buddies? Jack Benny in Charlies Aunt? How about Nathan Lane in The Producers and Birdcage?
The word games are tiresome, I'm not playing. Actors in costume obviously aren't sexually aroused by the costumes. They aren't prostitutes.

How can you leave out Peter Scolari? It wasn't Bosom Buddy.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
By the way, I think hateful bigotry is not innate. Bigots were taught to be ignorant.
Again, what you think has no bearing on the matter.
How is ignorance taught?

Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edit for rule 0 and rule 12.
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Old 20th December 2022, 09:52 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
This is sexually alluring? https://dinamartina.com
No. The problem is with these new Drag Queens who are obviously making it sexual.

https://nypost.com/2022/10/18/video-...arks-backlash/
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Old 20th December 2022, 09:54 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I'm going to be very clear here.

Drag shows are not inherently sexual.

They certainly can be, just like other kinds of stage performance. But there is nothing inherently sexual about wearing the clothes generally associated with a different gender.
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edit for rule 0 and rule 12.
I'm referring to the content of the shows,
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edit for rule 0 and rule 12.
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Old 20th December 2022, 09:55 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by WWBDD View Post
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edit for rule 0 and rule 12.
I'm referring to the content of the shows,
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edit for rule 0 and rule 12.
Not all drag shows are burlesque.
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Old 20th December 2022, 09:57 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by WWBDD View Post
Really. No aspect of personality is innate.
I'm a skeptic. ....


As a skeptic did you bother to investigate this unsupported claim of yours?
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Old 20th December 2022, 10:07 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by WWBDD View Post
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edit for rule 0 and rule 12.
I'm referring to the content of the shows,
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edit for rule 0 and rule 12.
You look up drag queen story hour, the actual kind of drag show we’re discussing, and tell me where you find “burlesque”.
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Old 20th December 2022, 10:26 PM   #388
Thermal
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
LMAO! Dude, leaving aside the overwhelming connotation of 'fetish', the conversation you were responding to besides being about people wanting to restrict all drag events to people over the age of 18 was specifically discussing Warp12's view and WWBDD's that the reason to do this is that drag is sexual. Indeed WWBDD's, deeply wrong, argument that drag is all transvestic fetishism as listed in the DSM removes all ambiguity as to what way 'fetish' was being used.
I...uh...wasn't responding to a conversation. By Warp12, WWBDD or anyone else. So there's that.

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And it's pretty damn funny for you to think that there aren't a lot of people who do have sexual fetishes for the things you listed.
I'm sure there are a lot of people who fetishize *checks notes* Unfashionable dads reading stories. Bit niche, but it's a big world.

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If you really meant to argue that drag is all a non-sexual fetish, well...
I did not. You're projecting again.

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...then you're just making another deeply silly argument. This is akin to saying 'why does this character have to be gay/black/a woman'? Reading events have many different themes and drag ones became popular because kids like the colorful outfits and characters, and get a lot of news because of the unlit candles who oppose them.
I'm really digging these stereotypes you throw around so casually.

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If the best you can come up with is 'you'd have to be a fetishist to combine these', that still leaves my objection intact. Your motivations and assumptions are not universal. No, one does not need to be a fetishists of any kind to happen upon that theme. Obviously.

I cosplay. One of my costumes is Freddy Fazbear from the horror jumpscare video game 'Five Nights at Freddy's'. Every time I've worn that outfit, of an animation bear haunted by the ghosts of murdered children who come alive at night to brutally kill more people, kids come up and love it. Absolutely adore the costume. Can you see how someone could say, 'hey, that'd be a great thing to read to kids in!' without being a fetishist? No?
Not familiar with the Freddy thing. Goggling it, Freddy Fazbear seems to be...a cutsie wootsie bearsy wearsie?

https://www.google.com/search?q=fred...eoiA0_25:122.5

Is your costume that you emphasized the jumpscare horror nature of somewhat more ghoulish?

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Again, that's a you problem.
Again, you don't seem to be understanding, but I doubt further discussion will improve your comprehension. But for the hell of it:

What I'm wondering is not about the story readers or the audience. That's just reading stories to kids, who probably have no idea what drag even is. It's why the adult promoters/organizers say "no, we don't want colorful people to engage children when reading stories. We want specifically men in pantyhose and stuffed bras. That's what does it for us". Ya that's a bit odd.
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Old 21st December 2022, 03:27 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Dictionaries are descriptive in use, yes. We normies often get colorful in our use of the language, and get annoyed with those who fetishize dictionary definitions to the point of exclusivity. .
But since nobody here is doing that ....
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Old 21st December 2022, 03:27 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
For those of us who aren't anal retentive ******** who spend all day jerking it to dictionaries,, fetish commonly means something you get weirdly hung up on.

Pathetic but utterly unexpected response to bring wrong.
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Old 21st December 2022, 03:28 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Actually fetish means what the dictionary says.

But even using it with your definition it doesn't make sense on the context. Who are you saying is weirdly hung up on what? Why is it weird? Just because you don't like it?
It's the classic troll tactic of "words mean whatever suits me".
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
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Old 21st December 2022, 03:30 AM   #392
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Have to say when I first learnt about the "Drag Queen Story hour" I was somewhat bemused, couldn't see a direct link to reading, but if it gets more kids interested in reading, books and the library by making them all seem fun (of course there is no "seems" they are all fun but often adults make them seem like chores or boring) then why ever not?
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Old 21st December 2022, 03:38 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
It's why the adult promoters/organizers say "no, we don't want colorful people to engage children when reading stories. We want specifically men in pantyhose and stuffed bras. That's what does it for us". Ya that's a bit odd.
Try "Let's have people from a highly popular, time honoured form of entertainment reading stories."

You find it a bit odd because it's not what you are used to. Doesn't seem odd to me. I grew up in Britain. Every Christmas we all got taken to be entertained by men in pantyhose and stuffed bras. That person was often the minister from our local church or a cop.
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Old 21st December 2022, 03:41 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
I grew up in Britain. Every Christmas we all got taken to be entertained by men in pantyhose and stuffed bras.

This makes me think of why 1776 was a good year.
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Old 21st December 2022, 03:43 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Have to say when I first learnt about the "Drag Queen Story hour" I was somewhat bemused, couldn't see a direct link to reading, but if it gets more kids interested in reading, books and the library by making them all seem fun (of course there is no "seems" they are all fun but often adults make them seem like chores or boring) then why ever not?
I'm kinda in the same area. My issue is that I can't make a good case why this should be a thing and I can't make a good case why this shouldn't be a thing?
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Old 21st December 2022, 03:51 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I'm kinda in the same area. My issue is that I can't make a good case why this should be a thing and I can't make a good case why this shouldn't be a thing?
I think Robin sums it up well just above with the "Let's have people from a highly popular, time honoured form of entertainment reading stories."

After hearing about it I did look around and having people (often the librarians themselves) dressed up in some way and reading stories is anything but unusual. There's an example in the Youtube clip I posted above - library employee dressed up for Halloween.
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Old 21st December 2022, 03:57 AM   #397
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I think Robin sums it up well just above with the "Let's have people from a highly popular, time honoured form of entertainment reading stories."

It's not honored in my neighborhood, bro.
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Old 21st December 2022, 03:59 AM   #398
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
It's not honored in my neighborhood, bro.
Your neighbourhood is not the world bro...
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Old 21st December 2022, 04:00 AM   #399
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Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
Your neighbourhood is not the world bro...
and that, in a nutshell, is the problem as far as Warp is concerned.
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Old 21st December 2022, 04:02 AM   #400
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For that matter...while it may be in the US, it is not the US.
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