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Old 17th December 2022, 04:01 PM   #281
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
...pretty firmly in the cisgendered heterosexual camp, and Jack Lemmon and Tony Curtis in drag did not steer me away, nor did the machine gunning violence turn me into a mass murderer, nor were my poor raging hormones derailed by the ending, which I thought then and still think was just good and funny.
Are conservatives against violence in movies and video games because they are turning kids violent? I don't recall which side of the aisle makes that argument.
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Old 17th December 2022, 04:56 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Incidentally the owner of the venue that hosted the drag brunch said that parents were warned about the explicit content.
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Old 17th December 2022, 08:42 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Are conservatives against violence in movies and video games because they are turning kids violent? I don't recall which side of the aisle makes that argument.
I don't think it matters who. Whether your head is full of right wing cement or left wing mush, it's still wrong. And if you think dramatic cross dressing will turn you into a deviant freak but don't think dramatic mass murder will turn you into a crook, then you're wrong and inconsistent at the same time, which is just wrong with a twist.
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Old 18th December 2022, 04:12 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
From the little I've seen of churches, they really are drag shows, aren't they?
No.
Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
Lots of old blokes wearing really fancy dresses.

Similarly the choirs, in their dresses.
Those aren't dresses. Cross-dressing (wearing clothing designed for the opposite sex) is an essential element of drag shows. Some would say it's the essential element.
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Old 18th December 2022, 04:21 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Enterprising conservative values warriors have now set up a website that helps people report planned drag shows and other deviance and degeneracy.

Defend Our Kids TX

They want to you know, protect kids from such abhorrent practices.

The important part is that we all take this verrry seriously and don't use the website to falsely report planned drag shows. Especially not at Law Enforcement facilities. Or Republican Party offices. Or Conservative churches that are overtly political but somehow still don't pay taxes.

I think this website is really wise. Nobody would ever think to spam the site with all sorts of false reports.
Children should not be exposed to adults engaged in sexual behavior. Do you disagree?
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Old 18th December 2022, 04:53 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by WWBDD View Post
Children should not be exposed to adults engaged in sexual behavior. Do you disagree?
But it is ok for children to be exposed to violence? Are you up in arms over movies and TV showing killing after killing? I would rather my children seeing two people making love than two people trying to kill each other.

BTW,
What makes you think drag shows necessarily portray anyone engaged in sexual behavior?
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Old 18th December 2022, 05:03 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by WWBDD View Post
Children should not be exposed to adults engaged in sexual behavior. Do you disagree?
I'm not sure that works as an absolute principle. It would have made things difficult from about the start of human history to only within the last few centuries
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Old 18th December 2022, 05:14 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
But it is ok for children to be exposed to violence? Are you up in arms over movies and TV showing killing after killing? I would rather my children seeing two people making love than two people trying to kill each other.

BTW,
What makes you think drag shows necessarily portray anyone engaged in sexual behavior?
The idea that drag queens are really sexual deviants out to groom children?
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Old 18th December 2022, 05:15 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
ERMIGERD! I'm gay moral panicking!

My kids have been around gay people and Pride parades all their lives, but I bet drag shows will durn them super trans gay!
What do gay people have to do with anything? Transvestism isn't exclusive to homosexuals or males. Sexual orientation is not innate. Paraphilia and gender dysphoria can be induced. Why on earth would you expose your children to adults indulging their paraphilia? Why are you hostile toward people who believe children should not be exposed to adults engaging in sexual behavior?
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Old 18th December 2022, 05:21 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
In what should be a surprise to no one, Texas (and a couple of other states) have proposed legislation that would heavily regulate drag...

Edited by Darat:  See mod box.
I don't believe you. Where's your evidence?
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Old 18th December 2022, 05:24 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by WWBDD View Post
Children should not be exposed to adults engaged in sexual behavior. Do you disagree?
That seems a reasonable thing to say if the definition of "engaged in sexual behavior" is reasonable, but I suspect many people would differ on what that is.
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Old 18th December 2022, 05:34 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by WWBDD View Post
What do gay people have to do with anything? Transvestism isn't exclusive to homosexuals or males. Sexual orientation is not innate. Paraphilia and gender dysphoria can be induced. Why on earth would you expose your children to adults indulging their paraphilia? Why are you hostile toward people who believe children should not be exposed to adults engaging in sexual behavior?
Originally Posted by WWBDD View Post
I don't believe you. Where's your evidence?
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Old 18th December 2022, 05:47 PM   #293
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Sorry, are you claiming that drag is a paraphilia?

Because...no.
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Old 18th December 2022, 05:47 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by WWBDD View Post
What do gay people have to do with anything? Transvestism isn't exclusive to homosexuals or males. Sexual orientation is not innate. Paraphilia and gender dysphoria can be induced. Why on earth would you expose your children to adults indulging their paraphilia? Why are you hostile toward people who believe children should not be exposed to adults engaging in sexual behavior?
Really? Sexual orientation is not innate? Seems to me it very much is.

par·a·phil·i·a
/ˌperəˈfilyə/
nounPSYCHIATRY
a condition characterized by abnormal sexual desires, typically involving extreme or dangerous activities

Who do we go to tell us what is abnormal?

Your church?

You?

Would you let your children see Mrs. Doubtfire? Or do you deny that Robin Williams performed in drag? How about Tom Hanks in Bosom Buddies? Jack Benny in Charlies Aunt? How about Nathan Lane in The Producers and Birdcage?

By the way, I think hateful bigotry is not innate. Bigots were taught to be ignorant.
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Old 18th December 2022, 05:51 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by WWBDD View Post
What do gay people have to do with anything? Transvestism isn't exclusive to homosexuals or males. Sexual orientation is not innate.
Hmmm. Anyone who thinks sexual orientation is a choice and not innate, is fooling themselves. Why would anyone choose to be socially vilified, attacked verbally and physically (and often murdered), arrested for sodomy (in states like TX is the past), estranged from family, etc? It's irrational to believe that.

You know what is learned? Intolerance and bigotry. Usually from intolerant and bigoted upbringing.


Originally Posted by WWBDD View Post
Paraphilia and gender dysphoria can be induced.
I suggest you read about David Reimer, a biological boy raised as a girl for 13 years, and see if he was 'induced' to identify as a girl. (Hint: he did not.) Here's a link:https://www.bbc.com/news/health-11814300



Originally Posted by WWBDD View Post
Why on earth would you expose your children to adults indulging their paraphilia?
Why on earth do you keep equating drag queens with paraphilia...or is it pedophilia that you're really talking about?


Originally Posted by WWBDD View Post
Why are you hostile toward people who believe children should not be exposed to adults engaging in sexual behavior?
Why do you think anyone here has said or believes that children should be exposed to adults engaging in sexual behavior? No one has.
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Old 18th December 2022, 05:53 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by WWBDD View Post
Children should not be exposed to adults engaged in sexual behavior. Do you disagree?

Whose children? Your children? Someone else's children? I couldn't care less! That should be entirely up to the parent.

Why do you care if someone else's kid sees straight-up porn? Mind your own business.

I love these pretend pearl-clutchers showing up one by one and repeating the same tired crap over and over.

You people gladly trade your children for the 2nd Amendment every day so take your phony morality and shove it up back your ass where it came from.

Last edited by mgidm86; 18th December 2022 at 05:56 PM.
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Old 18th December 2022, 05:56 PM   #297
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I love all these "Think of the children!" pearl-clutchers who are opposed to sensible gun control like banning assault style rifles. Guns kill more children every damn day than children who are 'harmed' by drag queens ever!
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Old 18th December 2022, 05:57 PM   #298
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I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why a person reading children's books to children may or may not be appropriate, depending on what kind of clothes that person is wearing.
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Old 18th December 2022, 06:02 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why a person reading children's books to children may or may not be appropriate, depending on what kind of clothes that person is wearing.
You've got a long wait ahead of you.
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Old 18th December 2022, 06:55 PM   #300
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You know, I am 51 years old. I graduated high school in 1989 - a few years after the peak of the big Satanic Panic thing.

I had a lot of friends that were evangelical or fundamentalist Christian (I was Catholic). And so many of those really overtly Christian kids were into the panic thing - especially as it related to heavy metal music.

They were convinced that AC/DC stood for "After Christ/Devil Comes". That Ozzy was a straight out Satanist. So was Ronnie James Dio (complete with a deliberately chosen sacrilegious name). Black Sabbath? Alice Cooper? You name it - play those disks backward and they're all clearly making satanic prayers. They had all sorts of rumors and stories about dark masses and animal or human sacrifice, arcane rights, all that. Some of them got the stories from their ministers (who always seemed suspiciously charismatic around their teenage congregants).

And then, all these years later, most of those metal heads have aged into fairly nice (albeit eccentric) old men, or aged into crank libertarians. I'm guessing my old friends were a bit shocked when some of them (like Alice Cooper and Dee Snider) started doing the occasional interview in costume and makeup but not in character. I remember some being pretty shocked at Cooper's appearance in Wayne's World where he was in costume and makeup but otherwise acted like a nice affable Englishman. Likewise Snider's testimony to Congress.

And then they probably watched and enjoyed The Osbourns with hardly a thought to how dangerous they all thought he was years prior.

So when I look at the current moral panic that we see centered around drag shows and transgenderism as evidenced in this thread and that thread I get the idea of what the discussions centering around Satanism would have been if we would have had internet forums in the late 1980's (widespread, easily available forums that it, not the handful of chatroom type things that were only accessible to a handful of people back then).

Just like this - with a handful of people making wild accusations, devoid of any real evidence. And when disproved, just doubling down with even greater false belief.

I guess society never changes.

Last edited by crescent; 18th December 2022 at 06:58 PM.
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Old 18th December 2022, 07:00 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
I guess society never changes.
Except that it does. There are still outrageously costumed metal bands - orders of magnitude more outrageous than the likes of Kiss - but only a few crackpots are calling them Satanic now. It wasn't that long ago that the efforts currently being expended on demonising trans people and drag shows was being expended on demonising homosexuals.

It's always the things that (especially) religious conservatives get real angry about that come to be seen as normal within the next twenty years. This will be just the same.
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Old 18th December 2022, 08:42 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
You know, I am 51 years old. I graduated high school in 1989 - a few years after the peak of the big Satanic Panic thing.

I had a lot of friends that were evangelical or fundamentalist Christian (I was Catholic). And so many of those really overtly Christian kids were into the panic thing - especially as it related to heavy metal music.

They were convinced that AC/DC stood for "After Christ/Devil Comes". That Ozzy was a straight out Satanist. So was Ronnie James Dio (complete with a deliberately chosen sacrilegious name). Black Sabbath? Alice Cooper? You name it - play those disks backward and they're all clearly making satanic prayers. They had all sorts of rumors and stories about dark masses and animal or human sacrifice, arcane rights, all that. Some of them got the stories from their ministers (who always seemed suspiciously charismatic around their teenage congregants).

And then, all these years later, most of those metal heads have aged into fairly nice (albeit eccentric) old men, or aged into crank libertarians. I'm guessing my old friends were a bit shocked when some of them (like Alice Cooper and Dee Snider) started doing the occasional interview in costume and makeup but not in character. I remember some being pretty shocked at Cooper's appearance in Wayne's World where he was in costume and makeup but otherwise acted like a nice affable Englishman. Likewise Snider's testimony to Congress.

And then they probably watched and enjoyed The Osbourns with hardly a thought to how dangerous they all thought he was years prior.

So when I look at the current moral panic that we see centered around drag shows and transgenderism as evidenced in this thread and that thread I get the idea of what the discussions centering around Satanism would have been if we would have had internet forums in the late 1980's (widespread, easily available forums that it, not the handful of chatroom type things that were only accessible to a handful of people back then).

Just like this - with a handful of people making wild accusations, devoid of any real evidence. And when disproved, just doubling down with even greater false belief.

I guess society never changes.
Well said.

Society can and does change. But stupid never does.
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Old 18th December 2022, 08:54 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
In what should be a surprise to no one, Texas (and a couple of other states) have proposed legislation that would heavily regulate drag, and could be read to ban trans gender people in public for doing 'drag'.

Edited by Darat:  See mod box.
Originally Posted by WWBDD View Post
I don't believe you. Where's your evidence?
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
In the minds of right wingers, drag is 'grooming' for sexual assault or being made trans.

Look at how one Texas bill defines 'drag':

"Drag performance" means a performance in which a
performer exhibits a gender identity that is different than the
performer's gender assigned at birth using clothing, makeup, or
other physical markers and sings, lip syncs, dances, or otherwise
performs before an audience for entertainment.

This bill would means a trans man telling a stand-up set at a place that allows the consumption of alcohol would make that place be defined as a 'sexual oriented business'. That would in turn mean such a place would have to totally ban anyone under the age of eighteen from entering and pay the state $5 per customer quarterly.

They equate drag to things like strip shows that are sexual. And they equate being trans with performing drag.

[This bill and the intersection with drag does intersect with trans gender issues here, and I think it's valid information for this thread, if not, oh well, I get a flag I guess.]
I guess you just missed this post.
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Old 18th December 2022, 09:40 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
I guess you just missed this post.
And, of course, as I think has already been suggested, the definition in the bill is so all-encompassingly stupid (as it must be to conceal its homophobic roots) that the definition of a "drag performance, " and the arbitrary nature of the criteria for lewdness, could include, and presumably regulate, theatrical reruns of Some Like it Hot or Victor Victoria, etc.,, and if age restrictions are enforced, make it impossible for a high school drama club to enact a surprising number of classic Shakespearean plays, among other things. I wonder if a library or book store containing the work of George Sand would have to be reclassified as an adult book store, and children kept out.

There seems to be a paywall providing only the definitions, and not the full bill, but I am not sure that's a handicap, as I suspect the rabbit hole is deep.

Of course stuff this stupid will never actually happen. Nobody is that stupid and crazy. Next thing you know, some crazy fantasist will say that anti-abortion laws will attempt to force a ten year old rape victim to carry a fetus to term, or that a declared presidential candidate will call for the deportation of a native-born sitting Senator because she disagrees with his politics...no no, that kind of thing will never happen. Nothing to see here, move along.
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Old 19th December 2022, 04:55 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by WWBDD View Post
What do gay people have to do with anything?
Because I’m old enough to remember the gay moral panic of the 80s-ish. This is identical.


Originally Posted by WWBDD View Post
Transvestism isn't exclusive to homosexuals or males. Sexual orientation is not innate. Paraphilia and gender dysphoria can be induced. Why on earth would you expose your children to adults indulging their paraphilia? Why are you hostile toward people who believe children should not be exposed to adults engaging in sexual behavior?
So many bad assumptions in such a short paragraph. I suggest you educate yourself a bit more about the topic, and not just from hate mongers looking to drum up your moral panic.
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Old 19th December 2022, 05:43 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
I just had to scroll down a few replies to find out that it was not marked as "All ages welcome". In fact it was marked:

"This event contains strong language and suggestive dialogue and may not be appropriate for all ages. Viewer discretion is advised."

"If you would not allow your children to see a Rated R movie, this is not the event for them."
A "conservative" lying? How shocking.
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Old 19th December 2022, 05:48 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by WWBDD View Post
Children should not be exposed to adults engaged in sexual behavior. Do you disagree?
What has that got to do with drag performances?
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Old 19th December 2022, 05:51 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by WWBDD View Post
What do gay people have to do with anything? Transvestism isn't exclusive to homosexuals or males. Sexual orientation is not innate. Paraphilia and gender dysphoria can be induced. Why on earth would you expose your children to adults indulging their paraphilia? Why are you hostile toward people who believe children should not be exposed to adults engaging in sexual behavior?
Oh look you're lying again...

Originally Posted by WWBDD View Post
I don't believe you. Where's your evidence?
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Old 19th December 2022, 06:13 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why a person reading children's books to children may or may not be appropriate, depending on what kind of clothes that person is wearing.

So, let me help with this...

Originally Posted by Liberal Mindset
I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why a person reading children's books to children may or may not be appropriate, depending on whether their dick is hanging out of their shorts.
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Old 19th December 2022, 06:26 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
So, let me help with this...
I guess it's so much easier to argue when you only have to engage with a fantasy strawman rather than with real interlocutors.
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Old 19th December 2022, 06:45 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by WWBDD View Post
Children should not be exposed to adults engaged in sexual behavior. Do you disagree?
Drag does not necessarily amount to people engaging in sexual behaviour. In most cases it explicitly not sexual, except in the most trivial sense which would include any activity.
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Old 19th December 2022, 06:50 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle View Post
Drag does not necessarily amount to people engaging in sexual behaviour. In most cases it explicitly not sexual, except in the most trivial sense which would include any activity.

Are you saying that there is no more human sexuality involved in Drag, than what children might experience at a petting zoo, for example?
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Old 19th December 2022, 06:50 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
And, of course, as I think has already been suggested, the definition in the bill is so all-encompassingly stupid (as it must be to conceal its homophobic roots) that the definition of a "drag performance, " and the arbitrary nature of the criteria for lewdness, could include, and presumably regulate, theatrical reruns of Some Like it Hot or Victor Victoria, etc.,, and if age restrictions are enforced, make it impossible for a high school drama club to enact a surprising number of classic Shakespearean plays, among other things. I wonder if a library or book store containing the work of George Sand would have to be reclassified as an adult book store, and children kept out.

There seems to be a paywall providing only the definitions, and not the full bill, but I am not sure that's a handicap, as I suspect the rabbit hole is deep.

Of course stuff this stupid will never actually happen. Nobody is that stupid and crazy. Next thing you know, some crazy fantasist will say that anti-abortion laws will attempt to force a ten year old rape victim to carry a fetus to term, or that a declared presidential candidate will call for the deportation of a native-born sitting Senator because she disagrees with his politics...no no, that kind of thing will never happen. Nothing to see here, move along.
If I'm reading the bill correctly, the high school would be fine as long as alcohol consumption is not allowed where they perform.

So, drag in a high school theater would be a sexual performance and completely legal while a trans gender person juggling at the state fair would be lewd illegal conduct. Karaoke at Applebee's would have to have genital checks or they'd be the same as a strip club or orgy venue.
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Old 19th December 2022, 06:58 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by notedgy
It just makes you wonder what kind of man gets up in the morning and decides, "I'm going to dress like a woman, to flamboyant excess, and hopefully find some young kids to hang out with". it
I dunno, I wonder about what kind of man (using the term very lightly) refers to women as split tails and thinks when they say no, they really mean yes. I have a hard time believing such a man (again, loosely) understands the meaning of the word consensual.
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Old 19th December 2022, 07:19 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Are you saying that there is no more human sexuality involved in Drag, than what children might experience at a petting zoo, for example?
I'd say less, since animals do not particularly care when or where they get a little frisky and often engage in a similar form of sexuality to humans.

I have a friend whose dog would bring his bed out for company and then proceed to hump it for his audience. I would argue that drag queen story times have far less than that.
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Old 19th December 2022, 07:46 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Are you saying that there is no more human sexuality involved in Drag, than what children might experience at a petting zoo, for example?
In drag acts tailored for families there is no more human sexuality involved than, say, Frozen and a lot less than,in a GOP.debate or convention.

Obviously in a drag act aimed at adult audiences there is adult content, just as there is in. comedy club or dinner theatre or many reality TV shows.
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Old 19th December 2022, 07:49 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I'd say less, since animals do not particularly care when or where they get a little frisky and often engage in a similar form of sexuality to humans.

I have a friend whose dog would bring his bed out for company and then proceed to hump it for his audience. I would argue that drag queen story times have far less than that.
Ah but he was careful to say "human" sexuality, so the rutting critters don't count. However, it kind of depends on what the humans are doing as they watch. But of course the comparison itself is silly. Nobody would reasonably compare drag shows to petting zoos, nor would it be reasonable for those attending one to expect the other. What constitutes human sexual activity is, obviously, an issue here. Is appearing as one's opposite sex what we must consider "sexual activity?" What about just being sexy? What about being highly attractive to potential sexual partners or predators? Of course this varies, but I'm a hell of a lot more attracted to a fit woman in running gear than a middle aged man in a dress. Some stopgap solution to my secret lust might be found in sumptuary laws, but the burden would be on the wrong person.

You can guess where this is going, I'm sure, but if objectionable human sexual activity is defined by appearance alone, then we're logically headed for the hijab.
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Old 19th December 2022, 07:56 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by WWBDD View Post
Why are you hostile toward people who believe children should not be exposed to adults engaging in sexual behavior?
I haven't seen anyone here expressing hostility toward people who believe children should not be exposed to adults engaging in sexual behavior. Can you point out where anyone has done this?

We have expressed hostility towards people who believe that children should not be exposed to any sort of drag act. A different thing entirely.
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Old 19th December 2022, 08:08 AM   #319
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I mean seriously, is being read to by a man in a Frick really going to turn a generation of American kids into drag queens?

I think what really keeps right wingers awake at night is the terrifying prospect that their kids might not grow up to be right wing.
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Old 19th December 2022, 08:23 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
I mean seriously, is being read to by a man in a Frick really going to turn a generation of American kids into drag queens?

I think what really keeps right wingers awake at night is the terrifying prospect that their kids might not grow up to be right wing.
Worse than that, not only is it going to force them into drag, it's going to turn them gay, turn them into transsexuals (who will then lurk in bathrooms for a glimpse of female flesh and/or undermine the sporting achievements of "real" women) and/or turn them all into ravening paedophiles.

It is truly extraordinary the power of a glamorous, sassy, cross-dresser that exposure to them for a few hours over the course of an entire childhood makes more of an impact than all of those years of attention from parents, family, pastors and so on.
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