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Old 20th January 2023, 08:39 PM   #361
dann
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Fraudsters deceive people all the time. They don't get a pass because "the people should have known better". They go to jail! The people they conned do not go to jail. They are called victims.

If I applied for any job and it was immediately discovered that I'd lied about my education, my arrest record, and/or my experience, I would be fired immediately. And if I wasn't I definitely could be.

I think we need to start holding the people running the country to at least that standard. Do you?

You don't seem to understand the difference between "any job" and the 'job' of being an elected representative.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 20th January 2023, 08:51 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
What am I, chopped liver?

It's only a couple of posts up that I posted this.
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Old 20th January 2023, 09:18 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Saying. Handwaving. Empty gestures. It's his right to be a member of Congress. He was elected, and that's what electing is all about.
Was he? I thought his district elected a graduate from Baruch University with a degree in economics and finance. Not a high school dropout. Silly me.
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Old 20th January 2023, 10:00 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
What am I, chopped liver?

It's only a couple of posts up that I posted this.
George Santos gave me his word that no one else had posted it.
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Old 20th January 2023, 10:26 PM   #365
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The problem with making telling the truth a requirement for taking office is where does one draw the line.

If Santos told one less lie should he be booted without a 2/3 vote from the House.
What about 3 fewer lies?
10 fewer lies?

Or is the requirement going to be not a single solitary lie?
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Old 20th January 2023, 10:28 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
George Santos gave me his word that no one else had posted it.
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Old 20th January 2023, 10:30 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
The problem with making telling the truth a requirement for taking office is where does one draw the line.

If Santos told one less lie should he be booted without a 2/3 vote from the House.
What about 3 fewer lies?
10 fewer lies?

Or is the requirement going to be not a single solitary lie?
You seem to be missing the issue of scale here in your effort to basque in the glow of false equivalences.
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Old 20th January 2023, 10:38 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
The problem with making telling the truth a requirement for taking office is where does one draw the line.

If Santos told one less lie should he be booted without a 2/3 vote from the House.
What about 3 fewer lies?
10 fewer lies?

Or is the requirement going to be not a single solitary lie?
Why not a minimum of honesty? With this guys background, he isn't qualified for the bare minimum of tech or finance jobs. Yet it's ok for him to be a US Congressman sitting on the Science committee?

I think if you post information about yourself on your campaign bio and it's demonstrably false you should be ineligible for the office you're seeking. PERIOD.
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Old 21st January 2023, 01:57 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by dann View Post
Do you expect him to resign just because you say so?
What kind of silly question is that?

Originally Posted by dann View Post

Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
What kind of silly question is that?
Saying. Handwaving. Empty gestures. It's his right to be a member of Congress. He was elected, and that's what electing is all about.
Ask a silly question, get a silly answer.
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Old 21st January 2023, 02:42 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You seem to be missing the issue of scale here in your effort to basque in the glow of false equivalences.
What Ladewig wears while posting is none of our business. Probably.
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Old 21st January 2023, 03:07 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Originally Posted by dann View Post
Saying. Handwaving. Empty gestures. It's his right to be a member of Congress. He was elected, and that's what electing is all about.
Was he? I thought his district elected a graduate from Baruch University with a degree in economics and finance. Not a high school dropout. Silly me.

Yes, he was elected! He was elected by lying to his constituents (to his party, too, but they were well aware what he was up to and approved), he managed to make them elect him. They gave him the power to make decisions on their behalf.

Why is it so difficult for you to understand this principle?! The voters gave him the right, and now he doesn't have to concern himself with their wishes or needs for the next couple of years and he is (more or less) free to sell his decision-making powers to the highest bidder. That's representative democracy!

His own conscience and "Providence, for the abuse of which he is deeply answerable," are all that matters. He just has to convince them, not people who voted for him, that he is doing the right thing, and we all know how easy it is to convince those entities ...
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 21st January 2023, 03:20 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, he was elected! He was elected by lying to his constituents (to his party, too, but they were well aware what he was up to and approved), he managed to make them elect him. They gave him the power to make decisions on their behalf.

Why is it so difficult for you to understand this principle?! The voters gave him the right, and now he doesn't have to concern himself with their wishes or needs for the next couple of years and he is (more or less) free to sell his decision-making powers to the highest bidder. That's representative democracy!

His own conscience and "Providence, for the abuse of which he is deeply answerable," are all that matters. He just has to convince them, not people who voted for him, that he is doing the right thing, and we all know how easy it is to convince those entities ...
So, if he got the position of a bank president, voted on by the board with a contract lasting 2 years, he shouldn't face any repercussions if it is found that 99% of his resume was false? I find the defence "but he was elected" to be puerile. An entity with the name George Santos was elected under false pretences, now that they know the truth a majority of his electorate are calling for him to go but your response is "tough - caveat emptor". That isn't democracy, that is fraud on a grand scale and there should be repercussions for it.
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Old 21st January 2023, 03:20 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Why not a minimum of honesty? With this guys background, he isn't qualified for the bare minimum of tech or finance jobs. Yet it's ok for him to be a US Congressman sitting on the Science committee?
Yes, apparently! And your first question answers itself: Honesty wouldn't get him elected!

Quote:
I think if you post information about yourself on your campaign bio and it's demonstrably false you should be ineligible for the office you're seeking. PERIOD.

But reality tells you that what you think is wrong. It is obvious that lying doesn't make you ineligible for the office you're seeking! (Unless you are lying about being born in the USA.) On the contrary, it gets you elected. You can lie to your constituents, and you can make promises that you never in a million years intend to keep. That's representative democracy.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 21st January 2023, 03:21 AM   #374
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I do think a good "democratic" governance system will have a mechanism for their constituents to recall them.
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Old 21st January 2023, 03:24 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by Parsman View Post
So, if he got the position of a bank president, voted on by the board with a contract lasting 2 years, he shouldn't face any repercussions if it is found that 99% of his resume was false? I find the defence "but he was elected" to be puerile. An entity with the name George Santos was elected under false pretences, now that they know the truth a majority of his electorate are calling for him to go but your response is "tough - caveat emptor". That isn't democracy, that is fraud on a grand scale and there should be repercussions for it.
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I do think a good "democratic" governance system will have a mechanism for their constituents to recall them.
I agree with both of you.
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Old 21st January 2023, 03:31 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, apparently! And your first question answers itself: Honesty wouldn't get him elected!




But reality tells you that what you think is wrong. It is obvious that lying doesn't make you ineligible for the office you're seeking! (Unless you are lying about being born in the USA.) On the contrary, it gets you elected. You can lie to your constituents, and you can make promises that you never in a million years intend to keep. That's representative democracy.
The main problem is that some guy called George Santos was elected to US Congress by the good folks of Long Island, but this compulsive liar named Anthony Devolder has taken his place in the House and is pretending to be him. If that's not voter fraud then I don't know what is!

Then again, it's no problem for the GOP, who let some piss-weak lying asshat called Donald Trump pretend to be US President for four years.
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Old 21st January 2023, 03:32 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by SteveAitch View Post
What Ladewig wears while posting is none of our business. Probably.
I am on occasion vocabulary-challenged.
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Old 21st January 2023, 03:35 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by Parsman View Post
So, if he got the position of a bank president, voted on by the board with a contract lasting 2 years, he shouldn't face any repercussions if it is found that 99% of his resume was false? I find the defence "but he was elected" to be puerile. An entity with the name George Santos was elected under false pretences, now that they know the truth a majority of his electorate are calling for him to go but your response is "tough - caveat emptor". That isn't democracy, that is fraud on a grand scale and there should be repercussions for it.

Why do you guys keep bringing other jobs into this. He didn't get the position of bank president, did he?

You completely misunderstand what I am writing if you think that it's a "defence" of anything. Do you actually think that representative democracy is a good thing? Honorable and dignified and worth defending? It's a system of government that makes people hand over decision-making to others who get to decide on their behalf rendering them more or less impotent. The representative gets to decide. They don't. He's the Decider! (In the case of Santos, it's on a pretty small scale.)

And the constituents now know the truth about George Santos, but they obviously don't know the truth about how representative democracy works. Neither do you, apparently.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 21st January 2023, 03:40 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Why do you guys keep bringing other jobs into this. He didn't get the position of bank president, did he?

You completely misunderstand what I am writing if you think that it's a "defence" of anything. Do you actually think that representative democracy is a good thing? Honorable and dignified and worth defending? It's a system of government that makes people hand over decision-making to others who get to decide on their behalf rendering them more or less impotent. The representative gets to decide. They don't. He's the Decider! (In the case of Santos, it's on a pretty small scale.)

And the constituents now know the truth about George Santos, but they obviously don't know the truth about how representative democracy works. Neither do you, apparently.
As I explained above, they are not actually getting the representative, and the representation, they thought they were getting and voted for in good faith. THAT'S the problem.
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Old 21st January 2023, 04:08 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I do think a good "democratic" governance system will have a mechanism for their constituents to recall them.

Why do you think that representative democray makes such a big deal out of separating people from power, of making them hand over decision-making to representatives?

In my own country:
Quote:
§ 56 Folketingsmedlemmerne er ene bundet ved deres overbevisning og ikke ved nogen forskrift af deres vælgere.
Paragraph 56 of the Danish constitution (Folketinget - the Danish parliament)
Translation: The members of Folketinget are bound only by their convictions and not by any directions from their constituents.

There's a new war on the horizon? Or a pandemic? Climate change? Sick leave?
Sorry, but you don't have a say in this. It's all up to your elected representatives, and you don't get to tell them what to do. You have left it to George Santos to decide.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 21st January 2023 at 04:10 AM.
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Old 21st January 2023, 04:09 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
As I explained above, they are not actually getting the representative, and the representation, they thought they were getting and voted for in good faith. THAT'S the problem.

The problem is that they voted in faith, whether good or not.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 21st January 2023 at 04:11 AM.
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Old 21st January 2023, 04:37 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post


"George’s new drag name needs to be Miss Information" or "Liza Bunch".

https://twitter.com/MoonPixieDC/stat...70191462400002
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Old 21st January 2023, 06:08 AM   #383
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Somebody was asleep at the switch

Upon initial examination Robert Zimmerman was hardly an objectionable candidate, and I have heard that this district was considered a safe seat for democrats (Zimmerman lost 54 to 46 percent). One group that should be ashamed of its performance is the leadership of the Democratic Party. They should have given Zimmerman's campaign more money or spent it themselves to publicize the exploits of the talented Mr. Santos. "Much of that so-called “opposition research” had appeared in various news outlets prior to the election. But no press release from the Zimmerman campaign, the state Democratic Party or the DCCC referenced the bulk of the Times reporting, which focused on the many alleged fabrications included as part of Santos’ resume as well as dug deeper into the animal rescue nonprofit Santos claimed to have founded." link

That having been said, I get the impression that the party did do something. "He [Zimmerman] pointed to an 87-page opposition research document the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee released that could have led to national exposure of Santos as a person unworthy of the office before voters went to the ballot booth."
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Old 21st January 2023, 06:38 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You seem to be missing the issue of scale here in your effort to basque in the glow of false equivalences.
On the contrary, scale is exactly what I am talking about. Almost all of us agree 60 lies is too much. But we still have to agree on a number that is the cutoff line for having too many lies. Is 30 an acceptable cutoff? 15? 7? Or as some here say is one proveably false statement enough to nix a candidate?

If we go with one, then does mean that H. Clinton is ineligible because of her claim that she came under fire at an airport?

……
And what if the provably false statement is based on misremembering something rather than intending to deceive people. If a senator says “10 years ago, I voted against senate bill S123,” but it turns out that person voted for the bill. Does that provably false statement count as a lie?

And how recent do these lies have to be? Does a 15-year-old lie count as part of a candidate’s lie tally?
……
As for comparing this job to other jobs with a fiduciary duty, other jobs require applications with specific questions (level of education, place of education, previous employment, criminal convictions, etc). The applicant then signs a statement that the information is correct. But if we require that, then Santos (or someone like Trump) could have told the truth on those questions and still have lied about contracting brain cancer, AIDS, and COVID; having a mother in the towers on 9/11; and all the other goofy claims that wouldn’t appear on an application. Are those lies serious enough to exclude the candidate.

Do Trump’s incessant lies about setting new attendance records in every venue he spoke in (because, according to him, he talked a fire chief into allowing extra people into a venue) count as disqualifying lies?
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Old 21st January 2023, 07:40 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, he was elected! He was elected by lying to his constituents (to his party, too, but they were well aware what he was up to and approved), he managed to make them elect him. They gave him the power to make decisions on their behalf.

Why is it so difficult for you to understand this principle?! The voters gave him the right, and now he doesn't have to concern himself with their wishes or needs for the next couple of years and he is (more or less) free to sell his decision-making powers to the highest bidder. That's representative democracy!

His own conscience and "Providence, for the abuse of which he is deeply answerable," are all that matters. He just has to convince them, not people who voted for him, that he is doing the right thing, and we all know how easy it is to convince those entities ...
You don’t think I understand? I understand full well.

You're saying that someone who runs as a graduate of Baruch University with a degree in economics, but who in reality is a high school drop-out should be able to get away with his fraud against the voters in his district.

If he had run as a high school dropout and elected, I have no issue.

How can he fairly represent the voters of his district when he can't fairly represent who he is?
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Old 21st January 2023, 08:14 AM   #386
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George Santos appears to admit drag queen past in Wiki post

Quote:
Embattled Rep. George Santos has claimed that reports and videos documenting him performing in drag are both “outrageous” and “categorically false.”

But nearly a dozen years ago, Santos himself appears to have confirmed that he participated in drag shows while he was a teenager living in Brazil.

A Wikipedia page accessed by POLITICO shows a user named Anthony Devolder — a Santos alias — writing that he “startted [sp] his ‘stage’ life at age 17 as an gay night club [sp] DRAG QUEEN and with that won sevral [sp] GAY ‘BEAUTY PAGENTS [sp].’”

The Wiki biography was last edited on April 29, 2011. It contains basic information that matches up with the newly sworn-in congressman, including Devolder being born on July 22, 1988, to a Brazilian family with a European background.
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Old 21st January 2023, 08:18 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
On the contrary, scale is exactly what I am talking about. Almost all of us agree 60 lies is too much. But we still have to agree on a number that is the cutoff line for having too many lies. Is 30 an acceptable cutoff? 15? 7? Or as some here say is one proveably false statement enough to nix a candidate?

If we go with one, then does mean that H. Clinton is ineligible because of her claim that she came under fire at an airport?

……
And what if the provably false statement is based on misremembering something rather than intending to deceive people. If a senator says “10 years ago, I voted against senate bill S123,” but it turns out that person voted for the bill. Does that provably false statement count as a lie?

And how recent do these lies have to be? Does a 15-year-old lie count as part of a candidate’s lie tally?
……
As for comparing this job to other jobs with a fiduciary duty, other jobs require applications with specific questions (level of education, place of education, previous employment, criminal convictions, etc). The applicant then signs a statement that the information is correct. But if we require that, then Santos (or someone like Trump) could have told the truth on those questions and still have lied about contracting brain cancer, AIDS, and COVID; having a mother in the towers on 9/11; and all the other goofy claims that wouldn’t appear on an application. Are those lies serious enough to exclude the candidate.

Do Trump’s incessant lies about setting new attendance records in every venue he spoke in (because, according to him, he talked a fire chief into allowing extra people into a venue) count as disqualifying lies?
Are you saying that George Santos mis-remembered attending the Horace Mann School, Baruch University and NYU? Are you saying he mis-remembered working for Citicorp and Goldman Sachs?

Which one of his falsehoods do you think are simply a case of misremembering?

We need to find a way to curb the rampant dishonesty in politics. We may not be able to eliminate it entirely, but a candidate should be accountable for telling the truth.
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Old 21st January 2023, 08:40 AM   #388
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https://www.gawker.com/politics/meet...ictional-staff

He's recruited some real failed genetic experiments to work on his staff. The fact that you have to go to Gawker to find them tells you what you need to know. His team isn't the bottom of the barrel; they're living with the worms and slugs in the dirt under the barrel.
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Old 21st January 2023, 11:09 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Because it is an elected office. And except in severe circumstances, the will of the voters, however stupid, should be respected.
And if the “will of the people” is to recall him?

We’ve only recently had a mechanism to recall MPs introduced in England and Wales, I think a political system that doesn’t have a recall procedure is lacking a safeguard.

Obviously the actual procedure has to have many caveats, checks and balances and so on, it shouldn’t be open for a politician to be recalled because their constituents (even if it is a majority) disagree with their voting record.

Have a read of MPs recall procedure in the UK for an example. Many other countries also have recall procedures.
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Old 21st January 2023, 11:14 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Why do you guys keep bringing other jobs into this. He didn't get the position of bank president, did he?

You completely misunderstand what I am writing if you think that it's a "defence" of anything. Do you actually think that representative democracy is a good thing? Honorable and dignified and worth defending? It's a system of government that makes people hand over decision-making to others who get to decide on their behalf rendering them more or less impotent. The representative gets to decide. They don't. He's the Decider! (In the case of Santos, it's on a pretty small scale.)

And the constituents now know the truth about George Santos, but they obviously don't know the truth about how representative democracy works. Neither do you, apparently.
Oh no sir, I understand representative democracy. The people of this district wanted a competent businessman with a record of charitable support and a personal understanding of issues affecting the disadvantaged and different in society as well as the strength and courage to overcome personal and familial tragedy. That might even be a representative worth having, Republican or not. But that is not what they got. They got a fraud and a shape shifter but you think, because they were misled or fooled they have to suffer this "representative" for 2 years! To be fair this is one of the problems of FPTP systems like congress in the USA or Parliament in my own country, this idea of winner takes all but in a proper democracy there would be repercussions for this kind of behaviour since honour or good behaviour now counts for little in politics and governments.
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Old 21st January 2023, 02:07 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by Parsman View Post
Oh no sir, I understand representative democracy. The people of this district wanted a competent businessman with a record of charitable support and a personal understanding of issues affecting the disadvantaged and different in society as well as the strength and courage to overcome personal and familial tragedy. That might even be a representative worth having, Republican or not. But that is not what they got. They got a fraud and a shape shifter but you think, because they were misled or fooled they have to suffer this "representative" for 2 years! To be fair this is one of the problems of FPTP systems like congress in the USA or Parliament in my own country, this idea of winner takes all but in a proper democracy there would be repercussions for this kind of behaviour since honour or good behaviour now counts for little in politics and governments.

In Jorge's defense, he did record a verbal correction:
https://soundcloud.com/daleleopold/c...social_sharing
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Old 21st January 2023, 02:24 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
On the contrary, scale is exactly what I am talking about. Almost all of us agree 60 lies is too much. But we still have to agree on a number that is the cutoff line for having too many lies. Is 30 an acceptable cutoff? 15? 7? Or as some here say is one proveably false statement enough to nix a candidate?
This is an arbitrary cherrypicked point. How about he's mentally ill? And yes, it should have applied to Trump as well but that's off-topic.

Quote:
If we go with one, then does mean that H. Clinton is ineligible because of her claim that she came under fire at an airport?


[snipped the rest of this nonsensical post]

You continue to ignore the facts of this case, the larger picture, the common sense difference.
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Old 21st January 2023, 03:02 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
No. The only way to get rid of him is to persuade him to resign -- fat chance -- or expel him -- fatter chance.
https://www.thoughtco.com/can-member...called-3368240
Well, there is a way to remove him. The Fascists spend a lot of time talking about it every election cycle.
Kind of a Constitutional loophole.
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Old 21st January 2023, 03:19 PM   #394
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Somebody find a picture or video of him in drag holding a children's book, please.
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Old 21st January 2023, 03:29 PM   #395
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I keep reading this thread title as "George Soros" and am expecting it to be about crazy ****. Certainly not disappointed.
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Old 21st January 2023, 04:25 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I keep reading this thread title as "George Soros" and am expecting it to be about crazy ****. Certainly not disappointed.
Erm…
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Old 21st January 2023, 06:15 PM   #397
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Comedian Leslie Jones:

Do you know how much you have to lie to be known as 'the lying Congressman'?

She's got a point.

"He stole from a disabled, homeless veteran's dying service dog? Oh, my god, you evil and stupid!"

She's got another point.
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Old 21st January 2023, 07:50 PM   #398
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Santos has essentially confirmed the drag queen rumors.
Originally Posted by George Santos
I was not a drag queen. I was young and had fun at a festival.
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Old 21st January 2023, 09:37 PM   #399
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George Santos is the current and future face of the Republican Party!
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Old 21st January 2023, 09:49 PM   #400
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Elected office in a representative democracy is a very unique station, unlike just about any other job one can take. The qualifications are as basic as they come; citizenship, age, and an ability to convince enough people to vote for you. That's about it. No standards in education, experience, honesty. If the candidate finagles the position without committing a crime, then he's rightfully in.

The will of the voters is sacrosanct. Whether they are deceived or are in on it. Which is why I keep saying a People gets the Government it deserves.
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