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Old 16th January 2023, 06:45 AM   #1
BobTheCoward
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is the president your leader?

I never understood the notion that the president leads the country. I just don't take any cues from the president and don't know many who do.

He certainly leads the executive branch. But government isn't the country (unless you are fascist). And he certainly has a role in creating and enforcing laws....but when a cop pull me over they are not my leader.

So, who is being led?
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Old 16th January 2023, 06:53 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I never understood the notion that the president leads the country. I just don't take any cues from the president and don't know many who do.

He certainly leads the executive branch. But government isn't the country (unless you are fascist). And he certainly has a role in creating and enforcing laws....but when a cop pull me over they are not my leader.

So, who is being led?
What do you mean by "leader"?
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Old 16th January 2023, 06:56 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I never understood the notion that the president leads the country. I just don't take any cues from the president and don't know many who do.

He certainly leads the executive branch. But government isn't the country (unless you are fascist). And he certainly has a role in creating and enforcing laws....but when a cop pull me over they are not my leader.

So, who is being led?
Seems to be a semantic confusion you have between the different uses of the word "leader".
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Old 16th January 2023, 06:56 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
What do you mean by "leader"?
noun
noun: leader; plural noun: leaders
1.
the person who leads or commands a group, organization, or country.


I don't think he leads or commands the country, but maybe I am wrong?
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Old 16th January 2023, 07:03 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't think he leads or commands the country, but maybe I am wrong?
Yes, you are wrong. He leads one of three co-equal branches of the US Government, but he is also responsible to the electorate and takes some guidance from us (or isnít re-elected)

Hope that helps.
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Old 16th January 2023, 07:04 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Yes, you are wrong. He leads one of three co-equal branches of the US Government, but he is also responsible to the electorate and takes some guidance from us (or isnít re-elected)

Hope that helps.
That doesn't sound like the description of a leader of a country
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Old 16th January 2023, 07:05 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
That doesn't sound like the my description of a leader of a country
FTFY
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Old 16th January 2023, 07:06 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
FTFY
no, I mean "the"

I am looking at the definition of leader and "to lead" and I don't see the applicability
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Old 16th January 2023, 07:07 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
That doesn't sound like the description of a leader of a country
Because heís not the sole leader of the country. Thatís what Iím saying.

There is no sole leader of the US.
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Old 16th January 2023, 07:08 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Because heís not the sole leader of the country. Thatís what Iím saying.

There is no sole leader of the US.
Is he even "A" leader?
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Old 16th January 2023, 07:11 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Is he even "A" leader?
Yes
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Old 16th January 2023, 07:13 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Yes
How? How does what you describe make him a leader of the country?
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Old 16th January 2023, 07:16 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
How? How does what you describe make him a leader of the country?
He is the final part of the process in creating laws. He is in charge of enforcing laws. He is responsible responsible for controlling military action.

Those are all leadership positions.
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Old 16th January 2023, 07:16 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
He is the final part of the process in creating laws. He is in charge of enforcing laws. He is responsible responsible for controlling military action.

Those are all leadership positions.
Of the executive branch and the federal government.

But the government isn't the country

I'm in a leadership position. I'm not a leader of the country

Last edited by BobTheCoward; 16th January 2023 at 07:18 AM.
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Old 16th January 2023, 07:17 AM   #15
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Aside from reviewing Elementary school civics basics, what is the point of this thread?
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Old 16th January 2023, 07:17 AM   #16
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Depends on what you mean by leading. In situations where one singular individual is tasked to speak for the whole country then yes, it would be the current president. But if you're asking whether ordinary citizens would follow orders from the president the answer is no. I'm not in the military and I'm not employed by any branch of the government, if the president showed up in the grocery store I shop at and ordered me to do something I certainly don't have to obey. The last loaf of jalapeno cheddar bread goes to whoever got it first, I don't care what their job title is. Mmmmm, that's good bread.
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Old 16th January 2023, 07:18 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Of the executive branch and the federal government.

But the government isn't the country
Yes, that is what I said.
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Old 16th January 2023, 07:20 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
no, I mean "the"

I am looking at the definition of leader and "to lead" and I don't see the applicability
You seem to have forgotten how you started the thread - you asked and it is in the title of your thread "is the president your leader?" You did not ask is "The president the leader?"
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Old 16th January 2023, 07:22 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You seem to have forgotten how you started the thread - you asked and it is in the title of your thread "is the president your leader?" You did not ask is "The president the leader?"
And you seem to lost track of what "the" applied to. It wasn't describing leader but the word definition
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Old 16th January 2023, 07:23 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
And you seem to lost track of what "the" applied to. It wasn't describing leader but the word definition
Nope - you are confusing yourself.
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Old 16th January 2023, 07:25 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Depends on what you mean by leading. In situations where one singular individual is tasked to speak for the whole country then yes, it would be the current president.
But does he do that? He is really only speaking for the US government, which isnt the country. The fact that other governments care about the US government doesn't make the government the country.
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Old 16th January 2023, 07:26 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
But does he do that? He is really only speaking for the US government, which isnt the country. The fact that other governments care about the US government doesn't make the government the country.
And? How does this relate to your question "is the president your leader?"
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Old 16th January 2023, 07:30 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And? How does this relate to your question "is the president your leader?"
It is greatly assisting me in learning the answer and tragicmonkey is giving me a lot to think about. I'm exploring the topic.
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Old 16th January 2023, 07:34 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
But does he do that? He is really only speaking for the US government, which isnt the country. The fact that other governments care about the US government doesn't make the government the country.
One of the functions of a government is to act on behalf of the collective entity that is the people that comprise the political unit, in this case a nation. What percentage of that collective agrees with the actions of that government may be a moral concern but it does not change the function.

(Please note I'm using the term "government" to mean the entirety of the mechanism which is the associated persons tasked with and empowered to run the various functions of the agencies and bodies that administer and perform tasks for the collective under the specific authority of the collective granted, not "government" in the sense of a particular set of cabinet ministers installed by the current party controlling a parliament. This came up before with Claus Larsen pretending to mistake the meaning of the word when I used it and I am still full of scorn for him over that.)
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Old 16th January 2023, 07:34 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It is greatly assisting me in learning the answer and tragicmonkey is giving me a lot to think about. I'm exploring the topic.
Either you consider the president your leader or you don't, there is not much to think about.

As I said the problem you have is merely a semantic misunderstanding i.e. that you are confusing your own personal definition of what a leader has to be with how other people use the term.
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Old 16th January 2023, 07:38 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Either you consider the president your leader or you don't, there is not much to think about.

As I said the problem you have is merely a semantic misunderstanding i.e. that you are confusing your own personal definition of what a leader has to be with how other people use the term.
As I said, I don't have a different definition from other people. And talking to tragic monkey, we agree on what constitutes a leader. The question is whether what the president leads can then be described as the country
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Old 16th January 2023, 07:40 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
...snip.... This came up before with Claus Larsen pretending to mistake the meaning of the word when I used it and I am still full of scorn for him over that.)
That just reminded me as to why I sometimes use the term "governance" rather than government when talking about the entirety of how a country is governed.
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Old 16th January 2023, 07:47 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
One of the functions of a government is to act on behalf of the collective entity that is the people that comprise the political unit, in this case a nation. What percentage of that collective agrees with the actions of that government may be a moral concern but it does not change the function.

(Please note I'm using the term "government" to mean the entirety of the mechanism which is the associated persons tasked with and empowered to run the various functions of the agencies and bodies that administer and perform tasks for the collective under the specific authority of the collective granted, not "government" in the sense of a particular set of cabinet ministers installed by the current party controlling a parliament. This came up before with Claus Larsen pretending to mistake the meaning of the word when I used it and I am still full of scorn for him over that.)
If I employ a law firm, the lawyer directs and speaks for the firm. He leads the firm. But he is not leading me, he is the agent. In your example, the president is leading the government and the government is the agent of the country.
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Old 16th January 2023, 07:47 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That just reminded me as to why I sometimes use the term "governance" rather than government when talking about the entirety of how a country is governed.
I had a similar conversation that required differentiating between a Christian county and a Christian state.
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Old 16th January 2023, 08:26 AM   #30
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BobTheCoward says, "I never understood...."

Now Bob, I cautioned you in another thread not ever to try to understand what you don't understand. It just leads you into conundrums, conflations, conflagrations, contusiuons, cominglings, confabulations, cabbages, and kings. Leave it alone. It's not good for you and other living things.
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Old 16th January 2023, 08:32 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
....but when a cop pull me over they are not my leader.
They led you to stop on the side of the road, presumably to lead you to conform to laws
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Old 16th January 2023, 08:36 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
As I said, I don't have a different definition from other people. And talking to tragic monkey, we agree on what constitutes a leader. The question is whether what the president leads can then be described as the country
You do have a different definition as you would otherwise have the same answer as Tragicmonkey.
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Old 16th January 2023, 08:40 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
If I employ a law firm, the lawyer directs and speaks for the firm. He leads the firm. But he is not leading me, he is the agent. In your example, the president is leading the government and the government is the agent of the country.
I suppose a one bit legal firm she might be the only owner so she could be said to be the leader of her company but if the lawyer's firm is not structured in such a why so she manages the law firm and dictates what happens then your particular lawyer is not the leader of the law firm.
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Old 16th January 2023, 08:43 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You do have a different definition as you would otherwise have the same answer as Tragicmonkey.
I think the disagreement is over the relationship between the government and the country.
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Old 16th January 2023, 08:44 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I suppose a one bit legal firm she might be the only owner so she could be said to be the leader of her company but if the lawyer's firm is not structured in such a why so she manages the law firm and dictates what happens then your particular lawyer is not the leader of the law firm.
I ain't affording any lawyer that isn't by themselves on a billboard
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Old 16th January 2023, 08:45 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I think the disagreement is over the relationship between the government and the country.
Then you are using a different definition to Tragicmonkey, as I said.
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Old 16th January 2023, 08:49 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Then you are using a different definition to Tragicmonkey, as I said.
not on leader
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Old 16th January 2023, 09:26 AM   #38
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The president directs the policy and execution of the will of Congress given to the Executive Branch of the United States. He leads the branch of government over which he is in charge. He does not lead the people but through the agencies of the Executive regulates what they do in so far as he is allowed by Congress.
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Old 16th January 2023, 10:01 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
not on leader
Yes you are - else you would agree with him.
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Old 16th January 2023, 10:53 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
noun
noun: leader; plural noun: leaders
1.
the person who leads or commands a group, organization, or country.


I don't think he leads or commands the country, but maybe I am wrong?
Oh, please. The old trick of cherry picking definition. Maybe the President is a later in another sense of the word?
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