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Old 17th January 2023, 10:10 AM   #1
Hercules56
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San Fran proposes $5 million in black reperations

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/san...ess?yptr=yahoo

I'm not against reparations per se, but I don't know if this is the right way to do it. Personally I'd prefer reparations to African Americans in the form of free college tuition, free healthcare, free childcare, free business loans, things like that. Debt forgiveness is also a good idea I guess.

Blanket checks? Not so sure.
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Old 17th January 2023, 10:18 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/san...ess?yptr=yahoo

I'm not against reparations per se, but I don't know if this is the right way to do it. Personally I'd prefer reparations to African Americans in the form of free college tuition, free healthcare, free childcare, free business loans, things like that. Debt forgiveness is also a good idea I guess.

Blanket checks? Not so sure.
Why do you think those things are better than cash?
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Old 17th January 2023, 10:34 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Why do you think those things are better than cash?
I believe that entitlements should be well-regulated. We want to make sure they are spent on appropriate things.
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Old 17th January 2023, 10:40 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
I believe that entitlements should be well-regulated. We want to make sure they are spent on appropriate things.
Who is "we"? What is "appropriate"? Who says what is appropriate?
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Old 17th January 2023, 10:43 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
I believe that entitlements should be well-regulated. We want to make sure they are spent on appropriate things.
"We"? "appropriate things"?

Sorry but that seems as if you are treating them less than full adults able to make their own decisions, smacks a tad of a master/slave dynamic., "we" know what is best for "you"?
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Old 17th January 2023, 10:48 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Who is "we"? What is "appropriate"? Who says what is appropriate?
"We" is society.

Society decides what is appropriate.
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Old 17th January 2023, 10:50 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
"We"? "appropriate things"?

Sorry but that seems as if you are treating them less than full adults able to make their own decisions, smacks a tad of a master/slave dynamic., "we" know what is best for "you"?
So you believe that EBT cards that can only be used for certain types of foods, Section 8 vouchers, Medicaid benefits, are part of the master/slave dynamic since they make sure that benefits to the poor are only spent on certain items and not simply a cash entitlement?
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Old 17th January 2023, 11:02 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
"We" is society.

Society decides what is appropriate.
Society decided on cash reparations. Now what? Society is wrong?
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Old 17th January 2023, 11:15 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Society decided on cash reparations. Now what? Society is wrong?
Well SF is a very odd place with hyper levels of white guilt and Woke politics.
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Old 17th January 2023, 11:22 AM   #10
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Wow, $5 million to the last black man in San Fran. Good for him!

I'm making a dumb joke...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_La..._San_Francisco

ETA: looking it up there are about 49,000 black people in San Fran, including Black Hispanic. So split evenly $5 million is just $102 a person.

Last edited by lobosrul5; 17th January 2023 at 11:28 AM.
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Old 17th January 2023, 11:29 AM   #11
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5 million dollars is nothing within a rounding error for a city the size of San Francisco. Without even bothering to do it I know I could go look up it's budget and the number of things it spends more than 5 million on that literally nobody could be paid to care about is a lot.

To speak the language they'll understand, any outrage directed at this is just virtue signaling.

Jacksonville spent 18 million on the "LERP" statue alone year or two back and we are nowhere near San Francisco's size.

https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/a...EBDTRSECGROLI/

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Old 17th January 2023, 11:38 AM   #12
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They should probably spend that five million on more homeless services.

Also, something something dane-geld something never get rid of the dane. There should be no reparations without first having a broad consensus in the African-American community the payments are both necessary and sufficient. Once they are paid, there should be no more talk of reparations, and no more complaints of historic lack of opportunity.

If the BLM riots of recent years are any indication, all San Francisco is doing is normalizing regular extortion payments. It's a rounding error right now, but those payments are going to add up over time, with no end in sight, and no real progress being made. It's like buying indulgences, only somehow worse.
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Old 17th January 2023, 11:38 AM   #13
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A lot of people are pretty awful when it comes to money management. Using the money for specific things we know help people live happier, healthier lives is likely to help the intended recipients more than just giving them cash. Not because they're black, but because they're human.
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Old 17th January 2023, 11:43 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
5 million dollars is nothing within a rounding error for a city the size of San Francisco. Without even bothering to do it I know I could go look up it's budget and the number of things it spends more than 5 million on that literally nobody could be paid to care about is a lot.

To speak the language they'll understand, any outrage directed at this is just virtue signaling.

Jacksonville spent 18 million on the "LERP" statue alone year or two back and we are nowhere near San Francisco's size.

https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/a...EBDTRSECGROLI/
Just one bit of correction. Jacksonville actually has a higher population than San Francisco (comparing city to city). The Bay Area in total is far larger than Jacksonville metro though. Also, San Fran is one of the highest income areas in the country, so their tax base is significantly bigger.
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Old 17th January 2023, 11:44 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
So you believe that EBT cards that can only be used for certain types of foods, Section 8 vouchers, Medicaid benefits, are part of the master/slave dynamic since they make sure that benefits to the poor are only spent on certain items and not simply a cash entitlement?
I thought we were talking about reparations? I.e. making amends for slavery?
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Old 17th January 2023, 11:46 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I thought we were talking about reparations? I.e. making amends for slavery?
I don't believe the city of San Francisco ever profited off slave labor or off the slave trade... hell it would make more sense for London to pay reperations.
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Old 17th January 2023, 11:46 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
They should probably spend that five million on more homeless services.

Also, something something dane-geld something never get rid of the dane. There should be no reparations without first having a broad consensus in the African-American community the payments are both necessary and sufficient. Once they are paid, there should be no more talk of reparations, and no more complaints of historic lack of opportunity.

...snip...
Any chance you'll provide the ..er.. reasoning behind your proclamations? Especially the highlighted one?
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Old 17th January 2023, 11:52 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Well SF is a very odd place with hyper levels of white guilt and Woke politics.
San Francisco also the US city most like the rest of the world. Clue there?
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Old 17th January 2023, 11:59 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Wow, $5 million to the last black man in San Fran. Good for him!

I'm making a dumb joke...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_La..._San_Francisco

ETA: looking it up there are about 49,000 black people in San Fran, including Black Hispanic. So split evenly $5 million is just $102 a person.
You could say it's...

... a token amount.
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Old 17th January 2023, 11:59 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Wow, $5 million to the last black man in San Fran. Good for him!

I'm making a dumb joke...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_La..._San_Francisco

ETA: looking it up there are about 49,000 black people in San Fran, including Black Hispanic. So split evenly $5 million is just $102 a person.
Pretty sure the article leads with $5mil to each qualifying person. The qualifiers are born in Frisco between '46 and '95, 10 yrs of identifying as being black in public records, 13 years residency in SF. Pretty sure there might be some professional athletes that could meet that standard.

Seems more fair to require evidence of having been short-ended to the tune of $5mil to qualify for reparations, since the proposed reparations are not based on chattel slavery (Cali was always a free State). Five mil in losses for an 18yo Frisco native seems like a lot of lost in come.
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Old 17th January 2023, 12:05 PM   #21
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All that being said calling it "reparation's" is the absolutely stupidest way to go at this.

If a hurricanes wipes out a city we don't care (outside of contrarian psychopaths whose opinions don't matter) that the hurricane wasn't anybody's fault. We recognize that people who are part of our society got hurt by something that you can't reasonably defend from, so we help them.

Same thing here. Or at least it should be. The effects of slavery, Jim Crow, and segregation are still hurting people today. This is a fact and it is not up for debate. We can... like help those people and not make it about one side paying dues to another.

But liberals gotta be seen wearing their hair shirts so, as always sure go ahead and phrase it a way that accomplishes nothing toward the actual goal but is guaranteed to make the trolls on the right has a hissy fit about it.

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Old 17th January 2023, 12:06 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Pretty sure the article leads with $5mil to each qualifying person. The qualifiers are born in Frisco between '46 and '95, 10 yrs of identifying as being black in public records, 13 years residency in SF. Pretty sure there might be some professional athletes that could meet that standard.

Seems more fair to require evidence of having been short-ended to the tune of $5mil to qualify for reparations, since the proposed reparations are not based on chattel slavery (Cali was always a free State). Five mil in losses for an 18yo Frisco native seems like a lot of lost in come.
Well that does seem less arbitrary and... well inconsequentially small. But, that could pretty easily lead to many billions of dollars in reparation's*. SF has a lot of tax revenue but not that kinds of money I wouldn't think.

*Even if only 10,000 people qualified that would be 50 billion USD!

Edited, nope billions not trillions.

ETA:, looking up the history of SF demographics, their used to be a much larger black population. I could easily see 100,000 or even more people qualifying, so 500 billion USD paid by ~800,000 residents equals $625,000 each. Lot of wealth in SF, but that much??

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Old 17th January 2023, 12:07 PM   #23
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It's a Fox News headline. You can just jump right to the part where they are eventually lying. You don't have to go through all the steps.
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Old 17th January 2023, 12:13 PM   #24
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Was going to do another ETA... but I'll post this separately. Was SF not largely built on Asian American, especially Chinese labor who were little more than slaves except in name... do they not deserve reparations too?
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Old 17th January 2023, 12:14 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It's a Fox News headline. You can just jump right to the part where they are eventually lying. You don't have to go through all the steps.
Was going to be my next post.
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Old 17th January 2023, 12:15 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I thought we were talking about reparations? I.e. making amends for slavery?
Are reparations synonymous with amends for slavery, though? I think the time for that has long passed.

What makes more sense to me is amends for racist discrimination in the post-slavery era. That's where the real generational setbacks to African-Americans can be found. In theory, every emancipated slave, and their children, should have gotten a fresh start, on equal footing as equal citizens with their white neighbors. But that didn't happen. Jim Crow, redlining, racist policies both official and unofficial... All these worked together to lock out black people, prevent them from participating fully in the economy, and prevent them from enjoying the benefits of full participation.

So I would say that if your ancestors, at any time after the Civil War, lived in a community that had such racist policies, then that community, whose current members have inherited the "benefits" of oppressing you, should owe you something substantial, as the inheritor of that oppression. Whatever engines of middle-class wealth-creation your parents or grandparents were locked out of, a piece of that hypothetical estate should fall to you. (Or the federal government could arrange to make the payments on behalf of all such racist communities, to all the various heirs of those oppressions.)

But if we look at it that way, San Francisco isn't the one to be making such payments. Of if they do make them, it should be to specific African-American individuals whose parents or grandparents were disadvantaged by racist policies in the city. And it probably needs to be something like $5million per person. Maybe more, accounting for inflation and the snowball effect of investment opportunities missed.
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Old 17th January 2023, 12:18 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Well that does seem less arbitrary and... well inconsequentially small. But, that could pretty easily lead to many billions of dollars in reparation's*. SF has a lot of tax revenue but not that kinds of money I wouldn't think.

*Even if only 10,000 people qualified that would be 50 billion USD!

Edited, nope billions not trillions.

ETA:, looking up the history of SF demographics, their used to be a much larger black population. I could easily see 100,000 or even more people qualifying, so 500 billion USD paid by ~800,000 residents equals $625,000 each. Lot of wealth in SF, but that much??
Maybe I'm out of the loop, but hasn't SF been like really socially progressive for decades? Aside from being not hospitable to the not fabulously wealthy, have they been Klannish to black folk in recent generations?
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Old 17th January 2023, 12:19 PM   #28
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My criticism of monetary reparations was that they would inevitably be both watered down to token (no pun) amounts and then used as an excuse to stop addressing the problems in any other way.

Which, well this looks a lot like half of that.
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Old 17th January 2023, 12:20 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Any chance you'll provide the ..er.. reasoning behind your proclamations? Especially the highlighted one?
If a payment isn't going to satisfy the demand for payment, I don't see any point in paying it. My phone company doesn't come after me to pay last month's bill, after I've already paid it. Once I've paid off my mortgage, the bank isn't going to keep hounding me for more payments towards that debt. That is obvious. What is also obvious, to me, anyway, is that it's foolish to enter into any agreement to pay a debt, that does not include an agreement about the terms whereby the debt is considered fully paid.
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Old 17th January 2023, 12:25 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Are reparations synonymous with amends for slavery, though? I think the time for that has long passed.

What makes more sense to me is amends for racist discrimination in the post-slavery era. That's where the real generational setbacks to African-Americans can be found. In theory, every emancipated slave, and their children, should have gotten a fresh start, on equal footing as equal citizens with their white neighbors. But that didn't happen. Jim Crow, redlining, racist policies both official and unofficial... All these worked together to lock out black people, prevent them from participating fully in the economy, and prevent them from enjoying the benefits of full participation.

So I would say that if your ancestors, at any time after the Civil War, lived in a community that had such racist policies, then that community, whose current members have inherited the "benefits" of oppressing you, should owe you something substantial, as the inheritor of that oppression. Whatever engines of middle-class wealth-creation your parents or grandparents were locked out of, a piece of that hypothetical estate should fall to you. (Or the federal government could arrange to make the payments on behalf of all such racist communities, to all the various heirs of those oppressions.)

But if we look at it that way, San Francisco isn't the one to be making such payments. Of if they do make them, it should be to specific African-American individuals whose parents or grandparents were disadvantaged by racist policies in the city. And it probably needs to be something like $5million per person. Maybe more, accounting for inflation and the snowball effect of investment opportunities missed.
This makes a lot of sense, but it is playing fortune-teller with what would have happened had people who were discriminated against would have otherwise fared. Like, might they have lost the home that they were redlined when purchasing anyway, due to reasons unrelated to disenfranchisement? It's a weird equation to quantify.
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Old 17th January 2023, 12:33 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If a payment isn't going to satisfy the demand for payment, I don't see any point in paying it. My phone company doesn't come after me to pay last month's bill, after I've already paid it. Once I've paid off my mortgage, the bank isn't going to keep hounding me for more payments towards that debt. That is obvious. What is also obvious, to me, anyway, is that it's foolish to enter into any agreement to pay a debt, that does not include an agreement about the terms whereby the debt is considered fully paid.
You're really gonna sit there and pretend like this is the same thing as a "bill?"
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Old 17th January 2023, 01:16 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
A lot of people are pretty awful when it comes to money management. Using the money for specific things we know help people live happier, healthier lives is likely to help the intended recipients more than just giving them cash. Not because they're black, but because they're human.
And of course the best judges of what people should spend their money on are other humans who don't suffer the consequences of the misspent money.


Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
I don't believe the city of San Francisco ever profited off slave labor or off the slave trade... hell it would make more sense for London to pay reperations.
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Maybe I'm out of the loop, but hasn't SF been like really socially progressive for decades? Aside from being not hospitable to the not fabulously wealthy, have they been Klannish to black folk in recent generations?
SF and California don't have a history of slavery but there is a history of racist policy.

Things like making sure the black neighborhoods got the pollution emitting power plant and subsequent superfund site and what not.

There is a lefty argument against reparations which basically goes, it will just let the US off the hook. Give African American Descendants of Slaves a bunch of money and it gives the rest of the ability to pretend racism isn't a problem anymore. Instead of we fought a war to end slavery isn't that enough it will be we fought a war and gave you reparations, what are you complaining about?
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Old 17th January 2023, 01:24 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Why do you think those things are better than cash?
If 30-70% of lottery winners eventually declare bankruptcy, and if we assume that black people in SF (on average) are neither more nor less financially savvy than the average American, then we can expect at least 3/10 of them to end up broke.


…………

The cost of living in San Francisco currently makes the city unlivable for most residents of central California.
Perhaps I am being overly pessimistic, but I think the city will become far more unlivable after several thousand multi-millionaires are added to the mix over the course of a single week.
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Old 17th January 2023, 01:31 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
This makes a lot of sense, but it is playing fortune-teller with what would have happened had people who were discriminated against would have otherwise fared. Like, might they have lost the home that they were redlined when purchasing anyway, due to reasons unrelated to disenfranchisement? It's a weird equation to quantify.
I think that in principle, a blue-ribbon commission of economists and accountants could come up with some sort of ballpark figure of inflation-adjusted opportunity costs, from one generation to the next. Nationwide, it would probably be a huge number, even if it were carefully scoped to just African-Americans who lived under the offending polices and their heirs.

But the size of the estimated total wouldn't be an obstacle to making the estimate.

The estimate doesn't have to be exact, or perfect. As long as there's a broad consensus that our best effort was made to be honest and accurate, and that the resulting number, if paid out, would satisfy the complaint.
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Old 17th January 2023, 01:31 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
If 30-70% of lottery winners eventually declare bankruptcy, and if we assume that black people in SF (on average) are neither more nor less financially savvy than the average American, then we can expect at least 3/10 of them to end up broke.


…………

The cost of living in San Francisco currently makes the city unlivable for most residents of central California.
Perhaps I am being overly pessimistic, but I think the city will become far more unlivable after several thousand multi-millionaires are added to the mix over the course of a single week.
Remember, they are proposing to payout anyone who identified as black and who lived in the city for at least 13 years between 1946 and 1995. They do not currently have to be residents. Past census data of the city shows that there were actually more black residents in past decades than now.

The city would need to issue a gargantuan bond to pay them all $5 million. They'd have to jack up property or sales taxes by a huge amount to pay the bond coupons. That would then cause residents to move out, thus lowering the value of property. The cost to live in them would still be very high though.
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Old 17th January 2023, 01:33 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
You're really gonna sit there and pretend like this is the same thing as a "bill?"
It's a debt. If I'm paying off a debt, I'd like some agreement beforehand that my payments are actually paying it off. The goal is to retire the debt.

I can compare it to blackmail and extortion, if you prefer. But nobody wants reparations to be handled on that basis, right? We'd all rather right the wrong in terms of debt repayment, yeah?
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Old 17th January 2023, 01:44 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
If 30-70% of lottery winners eventually declare bankruptcy, and if we assume that black people in SF (on average) are neither more nor less financially savvy than the average American, then we can expect at least 3/10 of them to end up broke.


…………

The cost of living in San Francisco currently makes the city unlivable for most residents of central California.
Perhaps I am being overly pessimistic, but I think the city will become far more unlivable after several thousand multi-millionaires are added to the mix over the course of a single week.
That's a big range, The 70% number is definitely wrong though.

https://medium.com/@cailiansavage1/l...e-4ed75cc6d5c9

That being said, the lottery also selects for folks that are probably not going to be great with money. They obviously can't do math.
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Old 17th January 2023, 01:46 PM   #38
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If you hit someone with your car and are found legally liable, you can't argue that you shouldn't have to pay because the person you hit isn't good with money.

People don't have to prove they will use the money "wisely" before being awarded damages owed, so this is all a red herring.
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Old 17th January 2023, 01:51 PM   #39
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Reparations should not be intended for individuals but for the black community as a whole. Giving individuals money is not very effective for many reasons, some already given, but using it to improve schools and health services in black communities, etc. helps all in the community.

I'd feel the same way for any similar situation regardless of race.
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Old 17th January 2023, 02:00 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
If you hit someone with your car and are found legally liable, you can't argue that you shouldn't have to pay because the person you hit isn't good with money.

People don't have to prove they will use the money "wisely" before being awarded damages owed, so this is all a red herring.
The question is what happens when they mismanage their windfall, end up worse off tomorrow rather than better off, and start talking about how the last round of reparations clearly wasn't enough and there needs to be more.

I have absolutely no problem with paying reparations in principle. I'd just like to avoid spending money in perpetuity without actually resolving the issue to anyone's satisfaction. Government does a lot of that already. And I think it's pretty obvious that San Francisco's payments, if they actually happen, will be more of the same.
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