IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 24th January 2023, 08:25 PM   #41
Orphia Nay
Penguilicious Spodmaster.
Tagger
 
Orphia Nay's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables).
Posts: 41,250
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I wonder if I should search my own house for classified documents. I've never had a government job or anything, but apparently these things are just everywhere. Some might have seeped in during all that rain last month.
Nah. All those classified documents being spread around... It's Wikileaks' new modus operandi.
__________________
"We stigmatize and send to the margins
people who trigger in us the feelings we want to avoid"
- Melinda Gates, "The Moment of Lift".
Orphia Nay is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2023, 12:26 AM   #42
Gulliver Foyle
Graduate Poster
 
Gulliver Foyle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Cork baaaiii
Posts: 1,008
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Also I'll be that guy.

It's 2023. Why are these physical documents?

I get it it's unreasonable to expect the President to just never go to his actual real not-White House home for 4-8 years. The office sorta deserves the benefit of a "Home Office" by why not just give him a Classified Terminal? They exist, trust me I know.

That way when the President isn't the President you can just... take the terminal.

Why are these stories making it sound like every Ex-President and Vice-President is going into his study, pouring himself a glass of brandy and lighting up a nice cigar, leaning back in an Eames Lounge Chair and reading stacks of classified paper documents?
I can answer that question, inertia. Large organisations tend to be conservative when making big changes like going paperless. Plus, even when they do commit, their size makes the change harder to implement.
Gulliver Foyle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2023, 01:21 AM   #43
jeremyp
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
Posts: 2,288
Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I have a secret clearance; I doubt that I would be able to use that as a defense if classified documents were found improperly stored at my home.

Right now I think it is a safe bet that many current or former politicians have classified documents improperly stored at their residence. This will continue to be the norm until the law is actually enforced.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1924


Ranb
In the UK, mentioning you have a high level government security clearance on social media could get you into trouble.
jeremyp is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2023, 02:00 AM   #44
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 36,002
This apparent lack of control over classified documents is disappointing, but hardly surprising.

Let's all remind ourselves however that there is still a world of difference between the apparent negligent handling of classified material by Pence and Biden and the alleged deliberate concealment of the theft of classified material by President Trump.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2023, 05:44 AM   #45
Mike!
Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Respect it!
 
Mike!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Ponylandistan! Where the bacon grows on trees! Can it get any better than that? I submit it can not!
Posts: 48,804
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
This apparent lack of control over classified documents is disappointing, but hardly surprising.

Let's all remind ourselves however that there is still a world of difference between the apparent negligent handling of classified material by Pence and Biden and the alleged deliberate concealment of the theft of classified material by President Trump.
I keep repeating this regularly.
The difference between, 'Opps, found some more, here you go.' and, 'Documents? What documents? I don't have any documents. Oh those documents. Yeah, I declassified those with my mind, they're meaningless now. Aren't they pretty?' , sadly seems indistinguishable to most I talk to.
__________________
"Never judge a man until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes...
Because then it won't really matter, you’ll be a mile away and have his shoes."
Mike! is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2023, 06:23 AM   #46
slyjoe
Illuminator
 
slyjoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Near Harmonica Virgins, AZ
Posts: 3,430
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
That doesn't mean we can't know the subject matter.
Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
Actually it does.
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
No it ******* doesn't or else how do we know what category of documents Trump stole?
You just switched from subject matter to category of documents. There is a difference. We know the categories - Confidential, Secret, Top Secret/SCI. We do not know the subject matter of those docs.
__________________
"You have done nothing to demonstrate an understanding of scientific methodology or modern skepticism, both of which are, by necessity, driven by the facts and evidence, not by preconceptions, and both of which are strengthened by, and rely upon, change." - Arkan Wolfshade
slyjoe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2023, 07:32 AM   #47
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 64,874
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
This apparent lack of control over classified documents is disappointing, but hardly surprising.

Let's all remind ourselves however that there is still a world of difference between the apparent negligent handling of classified material by Pence and Biden and the alleged deliberate concealment of the theft of classified material by President Trump.
I judge people by both their actions and their reactions.

"Documents improperly taken!"
--Biden: "Oh, dear, investigate away."
--Pence: "Oh, dear, investigate away."
--Trump: "No they aren't! I had every right to take them! I didn't take them! There are no documents! They were planted! I declassified them with my mind! They're classified but I'm allowed! Hillary put them there! I'm suing! I'm suing! You're sued! I'm suing! Help, persecution! I'm the real president! I'm Jesus! I'm not fat! I'm suing! Waaaaaaaah!!!!"

Frankly, I don't care half so much about mishandled documents as I do about how they responded when caught. Who gets punished harder, the errant child who accepts responsibility and makes amends for wrongdoing, or the child who throws a temper tantrum out of rage at facing consequences?
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2023, 07:38 AM   #48
wareyin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Georgia, USA
Posts: 10,928
Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
You just switched from subject matter to category of documents. There is a difference. We know the categories - Confidential, Secret, Top Secret/SCI. We do not know the subject matter of those docs.
Haven't we been told that some of Trump's docs were about the nuclear capability of other countries?
wareyin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2023, 07:51 AM   #49
JoeMorgue
Suspended
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 42,380
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I judge people by both their actions and their reactions.

"Documents improperly taken!"
--Biden: "Oh, dear, investigate away."
--Pence: "Oh, dear, investigate away."
--Trump: "No they aren't! I had every right to take them! I didn't take them! There are no documents! They were planted! I declassified them with my mind! They're classified but I'm allowed! Hillary put them there! I'm suing! I'm suing! You're sued! I'm suing! Help, persecution! I'm the real president! I'm Jesus! I'm not fat! I'm suing! Waaaaaaaah!!!!"

Frankly, I don't care half so much about mishandled documents as I do about how they responded when caught. Who gets punished harder, the errant child who accepts responsibility and makes amends for wrongdoing, or the child who throws a temper tantrum out of rage at facing consequences?
Ah you see but you miss a core part of the Right's mentality.

Their concept of (what passes for) standards is ruled by one overriding factor, a mantra they live and breath by, that of taking people "down a peg."

Biden is a mostly good person and Pence is... well mostly wrong within normal parameters when he's detached from Trump.

Trump is an openly bragging manchild sociopath who's entire personality up and down is to be a GodKing who appeals to absolute worst possible people.

Even if all three people made the "same" mistake (which they didn't for all the reasons you correctly point out) in their insane, twisted troll logic brains Biden and Pence would still be worse, or at least more deserving of scorn and retaliation, because they dared to be mostly decent most of the time so this proves, to these gibbering idiots, that they are just phonies who's entire base humanity is just an act.

And the worst among us love nothing more than the idea that everyone who IS a base decent or hell at this point even "the sort of bad and wrong you can make SOME sense out of" is just faking it and deep down inside are really just as horrible as they are and slip up like this just prove it.

Because the only sin they think a person can commit is to be "pretentious." To be "not as good as they think they are." To put on airs. To dare suggest we try and be good without being across the board perfect about everything.

In their insane hellish mindscape the person who crashes an oil tanker onto a beach for the sole reason of teaching those baby seals a lesson about compliancy is a better person than environmentalist who doesn't live in solar powered cardboard box, i.e. every complaint ever about Al Gore or Greta Thornberg.

But if you're not only a horrible person but that new brand of horrible person who's entire personality is being a horrible person and daring everyone around you to notice you're a horrible person and do something about it or react to it in any way then you can't commit the sin of being "pretentious." If you're scrapping the bottom of the barrel so hard you're starting to hit the top soil you can never commit the cardinal sin of having literally any standards while not being 100% perfect.

Nothing pisses off a total piece of **** more than someone being better than them and nothing makes a total piece of **** happier than that moment when someone who is better than them makes the tiniest mistake.

I'm serious here. Start paying attention to how much the toxic side of every discussion makes sense you assume they are operating under the idea that the only point of a discussion is to take the correct side down a peg.

That's why every other discussion here is someone peeing in the cereal and half the board pretending not to notice until someone is just a little too snarky or breaks some rule of civility theater in regards to and then they swarm out of the woodworks to make a big showy deal out of it.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2023, 07:52 AM   #50
slyjoe
Illuminator
 
slyjoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Near Harmonica Virgins, AZ
Posts: 3,430
Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Haven't we been told that some of Trump's docs were about the nuclear capability of other countries?
Sure - which country?
__________________
"You have done nothing to demonstrate an understanding of scientific methodology or modern skepticism, both of which are, by necessity, driven by the facts and evidence, not by preconceptions, and both of which are strengthened by, and rely upon, change." - Arkan Wolfshade
slyjoe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2023, 07:55 AM   #51
JoeMorgue
Suspended
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 42,380
Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
Sure - which country?
What point are you trying to make?
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2023, 08:19 AM   #52
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: In the Troll Ignoring Section
Posts: 21,206
Probably been said already, but a document being classified doesn't really mean anything. Some information is "classified" just because literally everything running through the server/network is classified as "Classified". WikiLeaks has dumped many hundreds of thousands of classified documents. Browse them sometime. A ton are emails arranging lunch.
__________________
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2023, 08:34 AM   #53
JoeMorgue
Suspended
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 42,380
The military does tend to just default to classifying everything and I can only imagine the Intelligence Community is even worse.

Mishandling of classified material is never a "good" thing but yes 99% of this stuff was probably classified in the same sense that I'm a three time Times Person of the Year winner.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2023, 08:37 AM   #54
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 93,022
Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
You just switched from subject matter to category of documents. There is a difference. We know the categories - Confidential, Secret, Top Secret/SCI. We do not know the subject matter of those docs.
Then let me clear up the confusion my semantics caused you.

One example was given on the news. Some of those classified documents are itineraries that even at the time contained information available publicly. Given the classification was to conceal the planned visits of a legislator and that travel took place years ago, such a "classified" document would be recognized as benign.

Compare that to Trump who took documents that contained top secret information on embedded agents and Iran's nuclear details. Trump already publicly disclosed images obtained by satellite that revealed satellite capabilities the US would prefer weren't known.
Skeptic Ginger is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2023, 08:39 AM   #55
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 93,022
Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
Sure - which country?
Iran
Skeptic Ginger is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2023, 09:17 AM   #56
slyjoe
Illuminator
 
slyjoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Near Harmonica Virgins, AZ
Posts: 3,430
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The military does tend to just default to classifying everything and I can only imagine the Intelligence Community is even worse.

Mishandling of classified material is never a "good" thing but yes 99% of this stuff was probably classified in the same sense that I'm a three time Times Person of the Year winner.
My experience is that the IC is quite aware of classification rules. Doesn't mean there aren't exceptions.

Everybody over-classifies information. The worst is things that are only classified because they may cause someone political damage.

And no, to answer Thermal's point, not everything running through a classified network is classified.
__________________
"You have done nothing to demonstrate an understanding of scientific methodology or modern skepticism, both of which are, by necessity, driven by the facts and evidence, not by preconceptions, and both of which are strengthened by, and rely upon, change." - Arkan Wolfshade
slyjoe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2023, 09:51 AM   #57
wareyin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Georgia, USA
Posts: 10,928
Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
Sure - which country?
Your prior claim was that we could never know more than the level to which something was classified, and yet we know not just the level, but the subject. At least in broad terms (assuming Skeptic Ginger is correct then we also know the specifics you're now moving the goal post to as well).
wareyin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2023, 09:52 AM   #58
JoeMorgue
Suspended
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 42,380
Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
My experience is that the IC is quite aware of classification rules. Doesn't mean there aren't exceptions.

Everybody over-classifies information. The worst is things that are only classified because they may cause someone political damage.

And no, to answer Thermal's point, not everything running through a classified network is classified.
I was an Navy IT for 20 years on both NIPRNET and SIPRNET (and higher.)

I got it. Trust me.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2023, 11:04 AM   #59
slyjoe
Illuminator
 
slyjoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Near Harmonica Virgins, AZ
Posts: 3,430
Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Your prior claim was that we could never know more than the level to which something was classified, and yet we know not just the level, but the subject. At least in broad terms (assuming Skeptic Ginger is correct then we also know the specifics you're now moving the goal post to as well).
Not a claim I made.
__________________
"You have done nothing to demonstrate an understanding of scientific methodology or modern skepticism, both of which are, by necessity, driven by the facts and evidence, not by preconceptions, and both of which are strengthened by, and rely upon, change." - Arkan Wolfshade
slyjoe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2023, 11:22 AM   #60
mgidm86
Philosopher
 
mgidm86's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,512
Where have I heard this before?

Trump and Biden teams both jump on Pence disclosure as a classified documents defense

https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/25/polit...nts/index.html

Quote:
Advisers to former President Donald Trump and President Joe Biden jumped on news of classified documents being found in former Vice President Mike Pence’s Indiana home, with both viewing it as a helpful defense in their own documents investigations.

Biden’s team continues to draw a distinction between him and Trump when it comes to their handling of classified documents, and the parallels between the Pence and Biden cases have served to sharpen that argument in the initial fallout.

But sources familiar with both cases acknowledged Tuesday new revelations about sensitive materials found at Pence’s home help their cause.

Lot's of advisors saying things in this article, all about how this Pence thing helps both Biden and Trump. Sure we know the truth, but how much does that matter now? Less, it seems.

Last edited by mgidm86; 25th January 2023 at 11:24 AM.
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2023, 11:52 AM   #61
carlosy
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 537
Well I guess Trump is going to clink two Big Macs in honor of the occasion.
carlosy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2023, 01:57 PM   #62
arayder
Illuminator
 
arayder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,345
Someone may have said this. . .

In the last few months and weeks of a President's term the staff who did all the heavy lifting are long gone to other positions.

So I am wondering if that being the case the job of making sure the secret stuff gets handled correctly ends up being left to the B team, who are also busy trying to get news jobs.

Just a thought.
arayder is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2023, 02:00 PM   #63
JoeMorgue
Suspended
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 42,380
You figure there would be a position with some continuity between administrations. I like to hope the President's staff isn't set up in such a way that there is no overlap between positions that handle classified material and if it is that way that needs to be remedied.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2023, 02:05 PM   #64
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada, eh?
Posts: 19,525
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Quote:
Haven't we been told that some of Trump's docs were about the nuclear capability of other countries?
Quote:
Sure - which country?
Iran
Were we actually told it was Iran?

I mean, it does make sense... Iran and North Korea are the main 'rogue' states working on nuclear weapons, and Iran was Trump's boogey man. (Plus, he could give those secrets to his friend in Saudi Arabia, in appreciation for using his golf courses, or to Israel.) I just haven't heard any conformation that Iran was the country in question.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppins Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2023, 02:40 PM   #65
Ranb
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ranb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: WA USA
Posts: 10,663
Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
In the UK, mentioning you have a high level government security clearance on social media could get you into trouble.
That is interesting. But in my case, telling people I work at a government shipyard tells them I have a security clearance.
Ranb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2023, 02:41 PM   #66
arayder
Illuminator
 
arayder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,345
Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Someone may have said this. . .

In the last few months and weeks of a President's term the staff who did all the heavy lifting are long gone to other positions.

So I am wondering if that being the case the job of making sure the secret stuff gets handled correctly ends up being left to the B team, who are also busy trying to get news jobs.

Just a thought.
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
You figure there would be a position with some continuity between administrations. I like to hope the President's staff isn't set up in such a way that there is no overlap between positions that handle classified material and if it is that way that needs to be remedied.
I don't know if the National Archives office can get into the works of a sitting presidency. There are stories of different presidents and different staff members being greater or lessor sticklers about how classified documents get handled.
arayder is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2023, 02:44 PM   #67
Ranb
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ranb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: WA USA
Posts: 10,663
In post #23 above, I said in part;
Quote:
(a) Whoever, being an officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States, and, by virtue of his office, employment, position, or contract, becomes possessed of documents or materials containing classified information of the United States, knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than five years, or both.
I'm being told by some others that simply finding classified documents in a private residence without a safe or other authorized storage location is not "intent to retain".

I say it is intent.

I'm also told that the prosecution has to prove intent and that intent is not just holding the documents.

What say the internet lawyers here?
Ranb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2023, 03:40 PM   #68
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 28,670
Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
In post #23 above, I said in part;


I'm being told by some others that simply finding classified documents in a private residence without a safe or other authorized storage location is not "intent to retain".

I say it is intent.

I'm also told that the prosecution has to prove intent and that intent is not just holding the documents.

What say the internet lawyers here?
Intent would require knowledge of their presence. If staffers packed up the boxes and put them in a garage or office and said boxes were never unpacked/looked into, then how would one know what's in them? I doubt there was a label reading, "CONTENTS: photos, stapler, printer paper, classified documents".
Stacyhs is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2023, 03:48 PM   #69
Roger Ramjets
Philosopher
 
Roger Ramjets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,043
Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
In post #23 above, I said in part;
Quote:
(a) Whoever, being an officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States, and, by virtue of his office, employment, position, or contract, becomes possessed of documents or materials containing classified information of the United States, knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than five years, or both.
I'm being told by some others that simply finding classified documents in a private residence without a safe or other authorized storage location is not "intent to retain".

I say it is intent.
Comprehension fail. If simply possessing the documents was enough there would be no need to include 'with the intent'.

The law is explicitly worded to exclude cases where documents were accidentally retained, with or without the holder's knowledge. In Biden and Pence's cases they almost certainly had no knowledge of the documents in question, and there is no evidence that they retained them intentionally. Trump's case is different.
__________________
We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.
Roger Ramjets is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2023, 04:01 PM   #70
Ranb
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ranb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: WA USA
Posts: 10,663
I get what you are saying, but I'm not as generous when it comes to people like Biden and Pence being able to claim they did not knowingly violate the law.

If anyone would know what is being moved from DC to their home, it should be people like Biden and Pence.
Ranb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2023, 04:30 PM   #71
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 28,670
Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I get what you are saying, but I'm not as generous when it comes to people like Biden and Pence being able to claim they did not knowingly violate the law.

If anyone would know what is being moved from DC to their home, it should be people like Biden and Pence.
Why? Are you experienced in having transition teams removing things in hundreds of boxes from your house as a US Vice-President to your personal home?
Stacyhs is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2023, 04:45 PM   #72
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Port Townsend, Washington
Posts: 35,669
Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I get what you are saying, but I'm not as generous when it comes to people like Biden and Pence being able to claim they did not knowingly violate the law.

If anyone would know what is being moved from DC to their home, it should be people like Biden and Pence.
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Why? Are you experienced in having transition teams removing things in hundreds of boxes from your house as a US Vice-President to your personal home?
Exactly. Two or three moves ago we only had help from family members. And when we got to the new place, I found a box of actual garbage that had got loaded up.
It's not as if high-ranking officials are personally overseeing everything that gets moved from their office(s). And remember, it's not just the personal office, it's that of the Executive Assistant, and the Assistant Executive Assistant, and the 2nd Assistant Flunky to the 3rd Executive Assistant to the Executive Assistant.
Most of whom have moved on to other jobs. The Pres/Veep/whoever has pretty much no idea what's being stuffed into boxes by Bekins.
The problem isn't really that it got moved to their houses, it's how it was being stored in the first place.

I'll be shocked if we don't have documents turning up before long in the properties of Bill Clinton, Al Gore, G W Bush, Dick Cheney, and Barack Obama. But you won't hear about all of those on Fox News.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2023, 04:51 PM   #73
novaphile
Quester of Doglets
 
novaphile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Sunny South Australia
Posts: 4,020
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Why? Are you experienced in having transition teams removing things in hundreds of boxes from your house as a US Vice-President to your personal home?
While not being a President or Vice President, I can report that I was 'uplifted' on multiple occasions. And on each of those occasions, every single item was added to an inventory, before being placed into a box, and the box ID was added to the the inventory.

If I had ever been found to be in possession of a classified document at home, I most likely would have been arrested, lost my job etc.

The only exception that I can imagine to this would be the lowest levels of classification, where the document is my personal copy of a document intended for me.

For example, my contract may be classified as Sensitive - Personal, or Sensitive - Commercial in Confidence. Or work related medical treatment may be classified as Sensitive - Medical.

The more I hear about these documents, the more I'm beginning to suspect that the USA is being run by a posse of clowns.

Note that classification systems define how documents must be stored.

Anyone who has handled classified materials in Australia should be familiar with A class, B class and C class cabinets for example.
__________________
We would be better, and braver, to engage in enquiry, rather than indulge in the idle fancy, that we already know -- Plato.
novaphile is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2023, 04:51 PM   #74
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 28,670
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Exactly. Two or three moves ago we only had help from family members. And when we got to the new place, I found a box of actual garbage that had got loaded up.
It's not as if high-ranking officials are personally overseeing everything that gets moved from their office(s). And remember, it's not just the personal office, it's that of the Executive Assistant, and the Assistant Executive Assistant, and the 2nd Assistant Flunky to the 3rd Executive Assistant to the Executive Assistant.
Most of whom have moved on to other jobs. The Pres/Veep/whoever has pretty much no idea what's being stuffed into boxes by Bekins.
The problem isn't really that it got moved to their houses, it's how it was being stored in the first place.

I'll be shocked if we don't have documents turning up before long in the properties of Bill Clinton, Al Gore, G W Bush, Dick Cheney, and Barack Obama. But you won't hear about all of those on Fox News.
The Air Force packed up our household for a four year storage while we were deployed to Germany. When we returned and my parents bought a house and their belongings were unpacked, they found the 4 year old garbage had also been packed and stored!

Last edited by Stacyhs; 25th January 2023 at 04:54 PM. Reason: correcting faulty memory.
Stacyhs is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2023, 04:59 PM   #75
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 64,874
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
The Air Force packed up our household for a four year storage while we were deployed to Germany. When we returned and my parents bought a house and their belongings were unpacked, they found the 4 year old garbage had also been packed and stored!
The best we got from a Navy move was the movers packed the coffeemaker with half a pot of coffee in it. They could at least have stuffed the rest of the box with classified documents to soak it up!
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2023, 05:14 PM   #76
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 28,670
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
The best we got from a Navy move was the movers packed the coffeemaker with half a pot of coffee in it. They could at least have stuffed the rest of the box with classified documents to soak it up!
How could you not know that they had packed half a pot of coffee?
Stacyhs is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2023, 06:39 PM   #77
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada, eh?
Posts: 19,525
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
How could you not know that they had packed half a pot of coffee?
They preferred tea?

Sent from my moto e using Tapatalk
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppins Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2023, 06:55 PM   #78
Ranb
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ranb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: WA USA
Posts: 10,663
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Why? Are you experienced in having transition teams removing things in hundreds of boxes from your house as a US Vice-President to your personal home?
No, but I can't imagine that I would try to evade responsibility for what is in my home.
Ranb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2023, 06:55 PM   #79
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 93,022
So relevant to this thread and fascinating to listen to was Jon Stewart's podcast today. It is 48 minutes long but guaranteed to be interesting to most of us on this forum.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qicghSVOm0A
Quote:
The media is chasing the classified documents fiasco like it’s spy vs. spy, Trump vs. Biden. But on this week’s episode, we’re breaking down the absurdity of a national security system that makes it so darn easy to hoard classified documents. We’re joined by Matthew Connelly, professor of history at Columbia and author of "The Declassification Engine: What History Reveals about America’s Top Secrets," who gives us the inside scoop on how unwieldy our system for keeping state secrets has become, who it’s really designed to protect, and how we might revamp it so that it actually, you know, can keep a secret.
Skeptic Ginger is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2023, 08:08 PM   #80
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 28,670
Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
No, but I can't imagine that I would try to evade responsibility for what is in my home.
Really? You're equating not knowing everything that is packed by others as "evading responsibility for what's in their home"? You do realize that Biden and Pence were dealing with matters more important than supervising the movers, don't you?
Stacyhs is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:40 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2023, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.