First on CNN: Classified documents found at Pence’s Indiana home

[Orphia Nay]

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

I wonder if I should search my own house for classified documents. I've never had a government job or anything, but apparently these things are just everywhere. Some might have seeped in during all that rain last month.

Nah. All those classified documents being spread around... It's Wikileaks' new modus operandi.

[Gulliver Foyle]

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Also I'll be that guy.

It's 2023. Why are these physical documents?

I get it it's unreasonable to expect the President to just never go to his actual real not-White House home for 4-8 years. The office sorta deserves the benefit of a "Home Office" by why not just give him a Classified Terminal? They exist, trust me I know.

That way when the President isn't the President you can just... take the terminal.

Why are these stories making it sound like every Ex-President and Vice-President is going into his study, pouring himself a glass of brandy and lighting up a nice cigar, leaning back in an Eames Lounge Chair and reading stacks of classified paper documents?

I can answer that question, inertia. Large organisations tend to be conservative when making big changes like going paperless. Plus, even when they do commit, their size makes the change harder to implement.

[jeremyp]

Originally Posted by Ranb

I have a secret clearance; I doubt that I would be able to use that as a defense if classified documents were found improperly stored at my home.

Right now I think it is a safe bet that many current or former politicians have classified documents improperly stored at their residence. This will continue to be the norm until the law is actually enforced.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1924


Ranb

In the UK, mentioning you have a high level government security clearance on social media could get you into trouble.

[The Don]

This apparent lack of control over classified documents is disappointing, but hardly surprising.

Let's all remind ourselves however that there is still a world of difference between the apparent negligent handling of classified material by Pence and Biden and the alleged deliberate concealment of the theft of classified material by President Trump.

[Mike!]

Originally Posted by The Don

This apparent lack of control over classified documents is disappointing, but hardly surprising.

Let's all remind ourselves however that there is still a world of difference between the apparent negligent handling of classified material by Pence and Biden and the alleged deliberate concealment of the theft of classified material by President Trump.

I keep repeating this regularly.
The difference between, 'Opps, found some more, here you go.' and, 'Documents? What documents? I don't have any documents. Oh those documents. Yeah, I declassified those with my mind, they're meaningless now. Aren't they pretty?' , sadly seems indistinguishable to most I talk to.

[slyjoe]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

That doesn't mean we can't know the subject matter.

Originally Posted by slyjoe

Actually it does.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

No it ******* doesn't or else how do we know what category of documents Trump stole?

You just switched from subject matter to category of documents. There is a difference. We know the categories - Confidential, Secret, Top Secret/SCI. We do not know the subject matter of those docs.

[TragicMonkey]

Originally Posted by The Don

This apparent lack of control over classified documents is disappointing, but hardly surprising.

Let's all remind ourselves however that there is still a world of difference between the apparent negligent handling of classified material by Pence and Biden and the alleged deliberate concealment of the theft of classified material by President Trump.

I judge people by both their actions and their reactions.

"Documents improperly taken!"
--Biden: "Oh, dear, investigate away."
--Pence: "Oh, dear, investigate away."
--Trump: "No they aren't! I had every right to take them! I didn't take them! There are no documents! They were planted! I declassified them with my mind! They're classified but I'm allowed! Hillary put them there! I'm suing! I'm suing! You're sued! I'm suing! Help, persecution! I'm the real president! I'm Jesus! I'm not fat! I'm suing! Waaaaaaaah!!!!"

Frankly, I don't care half so much about mishandled documents as I do about how they responded when caught. Who gets punished harder, the errant child who accepts responsibility and makes amends for wrongdoing, or the child who throws a temper tantrum out of rage at facing consequences?

[wareyin]

Originally Posted by slyjoe

You just switched from subject matter to category of documents. There is a difference. We know the categories - Confidential, Secret, Top Secret/SCI. We do not know the subject matter of those docs.

Haven't we been told that some of Trump's docs were about the nuclear capability of other countries?

[JoeMorgue]

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

I judge people by both their actions and their reactions.

"Documents improperly taken!"
--Biden: "Oh, dear, investigate away."
--Pence: "Oh, dear, investigate away."
--Trump: "No they aren't! I had every right to take them! I didn't take them! There are no documents! They were planted! I declassified them with my mind! They're classified but I'm allowed! Hillary put them there! I'm suing! I'm suing! You're sued! I'm suing! Help, persecution! I'm the real president! I'm Jesus! I'm not fat! I'm suing! Waaaaaaaah!!!!"

Frankly, I don't care half so much about mishandled documents as I do about how they responded when caught. Who gets punished harder, the errant child who accepts responsibility and makes amends for wrongdoing, or the child who throws a temper tantrum out of rage at facing consequences?

Ah you see but you miss a core part of the Right's mentality.

Their concept of (what passes for) standards is ruled by one overriding factor, a mantra they live and breath by, that of taking people "down a peg."

Biden is a mostly good person and Pence is... well mostly wrong within normal parameters when he's detached from Trump.

Trump is an openly bragging manchild sociopath who's entire personality up and down is to be a GodKing who appeals to absolute worst possible people.

Even if all three people made the "same" mistake (which they didn't for all the reasons you correctly point out) in their insane, twisted troll logic brains Biden and Pence would still be worse, or at least more deserving of scorn and retaliation, because they dared to be mostly decent most of the time so this proves, to these gibbering idiots, that they are just phonies who's entire base humanity is just an act.

And the worst among us love nothing more than the idea that everyone who IS a base decent or hell at this point even "the sort of bad and wrong you can make SOME sense out of" is just faking it and deep down inside are really just as horrible as they are and slip up like this just prove it.

Because the only sin they think a person can commit is to be "pretentious." To be "not as good as they think they are." To put on airs. To dare suggest we try and be good without being across the board perfect about everything.

In their insane hellish mindscape the person who crashes an oil tanker onto a beach for the sole reason of teaching those baby seals a lesson about compliancy is a better person than environmentalist who doesn't live in solar powered cardboard box, i.e. every complaint ever about Al Gore or Greta Thornberg.

But if you're not only a horrible person but that new brand of horrible person who's entire personality is being a horrible person and daring everyone around you to notice you're a horrible person and do something about it or react to it in any way then you can't commit the sin of being "pretentious." If you're scrapping the bottom of the barrel so hard you're starting to hit the top soil you can never commit the cardinal sin of having literally any standards while not being 100% perfect.

Nothing pisses off a total piece of **** more than someone being better than them and nothing makes a total piece of **** happier than that moment when someone who is better than them makes the tiniest mistake.

I'm serious here. Start paying attention to how much the toxic side of every discussion makes sense you assume they are operating under the idea that the only point of a discussion is to take the correct side down a peg.

That's why every other discussion here is someone peeing in the cereal and half the board pretending not to notice until someone is just a little too snarky or breaks some rule of civility theater in regards to and then they swarm out of the woodworks to make a big showy deal out of it.

[slyjoe]

Originally Posted by wareyin

Haven't we been told that some of Trump's docs were about the nuclear capability of other countries?

Sure - which country?

[JoeMorgue]

Originally Posted by slyjoe

Sure - which country?

What point are you trying to make?

[Thermal]

Probably been said already, but a document being classified doesn't really mean anything. Some information is "classified" just because literally everything running through the server/network is classified as "Classified". WikiLeaks has dumped many hundreds of thousands of classified documents. Browse them sometime. A ton are emails arranging lunch.

[JoeMorgue]

The military does tend to just default to classifying everything and I can only imagine the Intelligence Community is even worse.

Mishandling of classified material is never a "good" thing but yes 99% of this stuff was probably classified in the same sense that I'm a three time Times Person of the Year winner.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by slyjoe

You just switched from subject matter to category of documents. There is a difference. We know the categories - Confidential, Secret, Top Secret/SCI. We do not know the subject matter of those docs.

Then let me clear up the confusion my semantics caused you.

One example was given on the news. Some of those classified documents are itineraries that even at the time contained information available publicly. Given the classification was to conceal the planned visits of a legislator and that travel took place years ago, such a "classified" document would be recognized as benign.

Compare that to Trump who took documents that contained top secret information on embedded agents and Iran's nuclear details. Trump already publicly disclosed images obtained by satellite that revealed satellite capabilities the US would prefer weren't known.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by slyjoe

Sure - which country?

Iran

[slyjoe]

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

The military does tend to just default to classifying everything and I can only imagine the Intelligence Community is even worse.

Mishandling of classified material is never a "good" thing but yes 99% of this stuff was probably classified in the same sense that I'm a three time Times Person of the Year winner.

My experience is that the IC is quite aware of classification rules. Doesn't mean there aren't exceptions.

Everybody over-classifies information. The worst is things that are only classified because they may cause someone political damage.

And no, to answer Thermal's point, not everything running through a classified network is classified.

[wareyin]

Originally Posted by slyjoe

Sure - which country?

Your prior claim was that we could never know more than the level to which something was classified, and yet we know not just the level, but the subject. At least in broad terms (assuming Skeptic Ginger is correct then we also know the specifics you're now moving the goal post to as well).

[JoeMorgue]

Originally Posted by slyjoe

My experience is that the IC is quite aware of classification rules. Doesn't mean there aren't exceptions.

Everybody over-classifies information. The worst is things that are only classified because they may cause someone political damage.

And no, to answer Thermal's point, not everything running through a classified network is classified.

I was an Navy IT for 20 years on both NIPRNET and SIPRNET (and higher.)

I got it. Trust me.

[slyjoe]

Originally Posted by wareyin

Your prior claim was that we could never know more than the level to which something was classified, and yet we know not just the level, but the subject. At least in broad terms (assuming Skeptic Ginger is correct then we also know the specifics you're now moving the goal post to as well).

Not a claim I made.

[mgidm86]

Where have I heard this before?

Trump and Biden teams both jump on Pence disclosure as a classified documents defense

https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/25/polit...nts/index.html

Quote:

Advisers to former President Donald Trump and President Joe Biden jumped on news of classified documents being found in former Vice President Mike Pence’s Indiana home, with both viewing it as a helpful defense in their own documents investigations.

Biden’s team continues to draw a distinction between him and Trump when it comes to their handling of classified documents, and the parallels between the Pence and Biden cases have served to sharpen that argument in the initial fallout.

But sources familiar with both cases acknowledged Tuesday new revelations about sensitive materials found at Pence’s home help their cause.

Lot's of advisors saying things in this article, all about how this Pence thing helps both Biden and Trump. Sure we know the truth, but how much does that matter now? Less, it seems.

[carlosy]

Well I guess Trump is going to clink two Big Macs in honor of the occasion.

[arayder]

Someone may have said this. . .

In the last few months and weeks of a President's term the staff who did all the heavy lifting are long gone to other positions.

So I am wondering if that being the case the job of making sure the secret stuff gets handled correctly ends up being left to the B team, who are also busy trying to get news jobs.

Just a thought.

[JoeMorgue]

You figure there would be a position with some continuity between administrations. I like to hope the President's staff isn't set up in such a way that there is no overlap between positions that handle classified material and if it is that way that needs to be remedied.

[Segnosaur]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Quote:

Haven't we been told that some of Trump's docs were about the nuclear capability of other countries?

Quote:

Sure - which country?

Iran

Were we actually told it was Iran?

I mean, it does make sense... Iran and North Korea are the main 'rogue' states working on nuclear weapons, and Iran was Trump's boogey man. (Plus, he could give those secrets to his friend in Saudi Arabia, in appreciation for using his golf courses, or to Israel.) I just haven't heard any conformation that Iran was the country in question.

[Ranb]

Originally Posted by jeremyp

In the UK, mentioning you have a high level government security clearance on social media could get you into trouble.

That is interesting. But in my case, telling people I work at a government shipyard tells them I have a security clearance.

[arayder]

Originally Posted by arayder

Someone may have said this. . .

In the last few months and weeks of a President's term the staff who did all the heavy lifting are long gone to other positions.

So I am wondering if that being the case the job of making sure the secret stuff gets handled correctly ends up being left to the B team, who are also busy trying to get news jobs.

Just a thought.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

You figure there would be a position with some continuity between administrations. I like to hope the President's staff isn't set up in such a way that there is no overlap between positions that handle classified material and if it is that way that needs to be remedied.

I don't know if the National Archives office can get into the works of a sitting presidency. There are stories of different presidents and different staff members being greater or lessor sticklers about how classified documents get handled.

[Ranb]

In post #23 above, I said in part;

Quote:

(a) Whoever, being an officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States, and, by virtue of his office, employment, position, or contract, becomes possessed of documents or materials containing classified information of the United States, knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than five years, or both.

I'm being told by some others that simply finding classified documents in a private residence without a safe or other authorized storage location is not "intent to retain".

I say it is intent.

I'm also told that the prosecution has to prove intent and that intent is not just holding the documents.

What say the internet lawyers here?

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by Ranb

In post #23 above, I said in part;


I'm being told by some others that simply finding classified documents in a private residence without a safe or other authorized storage location is not "intent to retain".

I say it is intent.

I'm also told that the prosecution has to prove intent and that intent is not just holding the documents.

What say the internet lawyers here?

Intent would require knowledge of their presence. If staffers packed up the boxes and put them in a garage or office and said boxes were never unpacked/looked into, then how would one know what's in them? I doubt there was a label reading, "CONTENTS: photos, stapler, printer paper, classified documents".

[Roger Ramjets]

Originally Posted by Ranb

In post #23 above, I said in part;

Quote:

(a) Whoever, being an officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States, and, by virtue of his office, employment, position, or contract, becomes possessed of documents or materials containing classified information of the United States, knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than five years, or both.

I'm being told by some others that simply finding classified documents in a private residence without a safe or other authorized storage location is not "intent to retain".

I say it is intent.

Comprehension fail. If simply possessing the documents was enough there would be no need to include 'with the intent'.

The law is explicitly worded to exclude cases where documents were accidentally retained, with or without the holder's knowledge. In Biden and Pence's cases they almost certainly had no knowledge of the documents in question, and there is no evidence that they retained them intentionally. Trump's case is different.

[Ranb]

I get what you are saying, but I'm not as generous when it comes to people like Biden and Pence being able to claim they did not knowingly violate the law.

If anyone would know what is being moved from DC to their home, it should be people like Biden and Pence.

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by Ranb

I get what you are saying, but I'm not as generous when it comes to people like Biden and Pence being able to claim they did not knowingly violate the law.

If anyone would know what is being moved from DC to their home, it should be people like Biden and Pence.

Why? Are you experienced in having transition teams removing things in hundreds of boxes from your house as a US Vice-President to your personal home?

[Trebuchet]

Originally Posted by Ranb

I get what you are saying, but I'm not as generous when it comes to people like Biden and Pence being able to claim they did not knowingly violate the law.

If anyone would know what is being moved from DC to their home, it should be people like Biden and Pence.

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Why? Are you experienced in having transition teams removing things in hundreds of boxes from your house as a US Vice-President to your personal home?

Exactly. Two or three moves ago we only had help from family members. And when we got to the new place, I found a box of actual garbage that had got loaded up.
It's not as if high-ranking officials are personally overseeing everything that gets moved from their office(s). And remember, it's not just the personal office, it's that of the Executive Assistant, and the Assistant Executive Assistant, and the 2nd Assistant Flunky to the 3rd Executive Assistant to the Executive Assistant.
Most of whom have moved on to other jobs. The Pres/Veep/whoever has pretty much no idea what's being stuffed into boxes by Bekins.
The problem isn't really that it got moved to their houses, it's how it was being stored in the first place.

I'll be shocked if we don't have documents turning up before long in the properties of Bill Clinton, Al Gore, G W Bush, Dick Cheney, and Barack Obama. But you won't hear about all of those on Fox News.

[novaphile]

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Why? Are you experienced in having transition teams removing things in hundreds of boxes from your house as a US Vice-President to your personal home?

While not being a President or Vice President, I can report that I was 'uplifted' on multiple occasions. And on each of those occasions, every single item was added to an inventory, before being placed into a box, and the box ID was added to the the inventory.

If I had ever been found to be in possession of a classified document at home, I most likely would have been arrested, lost my job etc.

The only exception that I can imagine to this would be the lowest levels of classification, where the document is my personal copy of a document intended for me.

For example, my contract may be classified as Sensitive - Personal, or Sensitive - Commercial in Confidence. Or work related medical treatment may be classified as Sensitive - Medical.

The more I hear about these documents, the more I'm beginning to suspect that the USA is being run by a posse of clowns.

Note that classification systems define how documents must be stored.

Anyone who has handled classified materials in Australia should be familiar with A class, B class and C class cabinets for example.

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

Exactly. Two or three moves ago we only had help from family members. And when we got to the new place, I found a box of actual garbage that had got loaded up.
It's not as if high-ranking officials are personally overseeing everything that gets moved from their office(s). And remember, it's not just the personal office, it's that of the Executive Assistant, and the Assistant Executive Assistant, and the 2nd Assistant Flunky to the 3rd Executive Assistant to the Executive Assistant.
Most of whom have moved on to other jobs. The Pres/Veep/whoever has pretty much no idea what's being stuffed into boxes by Bekins.
The problem isn't really that it got moved to their houses, it's how it was being stored in the first place.

I'll be shocked if we don't have documents turning up before long in the properties of Bill Clinton, Al Gore, G W Bush, Dick Cheney, and Barack Obama. But you won't hear about all of those on Fox News.

The Air Force packed up our household for a four year storage while we were deployed to Germany. When we returned and my parents bought a house and their belongings were unpacked, they found the 4 year old garbage had also been packed and stored!

[TragicMonkey]

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

The Air Force packed up our household for a four year storage while we were deployed to Germany. When we returned and my parents bought a house and their belongings were unpacked, they found the 4 year old garbage had also been packed and stored!

The best we got from a Navy move was the movers packed the coffeemaker with half a pot of coffee in it. They could at least have stuffed the rest of the box with classified documents to soak it up!

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

The best we got from a Navy move was the movers packed the coffeemaker with half a pot of coffee in it. They could at least have stuffed the rest of the box with classified documents to soak it up!

How could you not know that they had packed half a pot of coffee?

[Segnosaur]

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

How could you not know that they had packed half a pot of coffee?

They preferred tea?

Sent from my moto e using Tapatalk

[Ranb]

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Why? Are you experienced in having transition teams removing things in hundreds of boxes from your house as a US Vice-President to your personal home?

No, but I can't imagine that I would try to evade responsibility for what is in my home.

[Skeptic Ginger]

So relevant to this thread and fascinating to listen to was Jon Stewart's podcast today. It is 48 minutes long but guaranteed to be interesting to most of us on this forum.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qicghSVOm0A

Quote:

The media is chasing the classified documents fiasco like it’s spy vs. spy, Trump vs. Biden. But on this week’s episode, we’re breaking down the absurdity of a national security system that makes it so darn easy to hoard classified documents. We’re joined by Matthew Connelly, professor of history at Columbia and author of "The Declassification Engine: What History Reveals about America’s Top Secrets," who gives us the inside scoop on how unwieldy our system for keeping state secrets has become, who it’s really designed to protect, and how we might revamp it so that it actually, you know, can keep a secret.

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by Ranb

No, but I can't imagine that I would try to evade responsibility for what is in my home.

Really? You're equating not knowing everything that is packed by others as "evading responsibility for what's in their home"? You do realize that Biden and Pence were dealing with matters more important than supervising the movers, don't you?