Could we do a better job with the world than God did?

[psionl0]

Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser

That's the thing.
We *could* do better.
Our morality now is better than that of the supposedly morally superior god.
If that is not a sign that the various holy texts are anything but holy, then what is?

Originally Posted by psionl0

Could we?

War, poverty, hunger, disease, crime, injustice etc seem to be just as prevalent as they have always been and I see little evidence that any real solutions are on the way.

Some of us might have more time to chew the fat on various issues than in the past but that doesn't make us more moral than our ancestors.

Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser

Assuming the powers of a god, yes we could.
I'm not saying we are perfect, but we'd dp better than the abrahamic god.

Rather than derail the other thread, I thought that this topic deserved its own thread.

Normally the existence of all of the evil in this world is taken as evidence that there is no god or that if God exists then he must be a pretty unsavoury character.

But assuming that God made the world the way it is today, what would be the strategy that we could employ if we had God-like powers? Would we do away with free will and make it impossible for people to do evil things? Would we remove evil people from the world? How would we decide when somebody has lost the right to exist in this world? Is it ok if the occasional good person has to be eradicated for the "greater good" (the needs of the many etc etc)?

[The Great Zaganza]

yes, undoubtedly we could do better than God.

For Starters, the Bible claims that humanity started out from a PERFECT state of Paradise, and that things can only get worse from there, to a point of Final Judgement.

In other words, according to the Word of God, we can only decelerate the Downfall, and not make any actual Progress. But more fundamentally, Belief in God is based on the assumption that there is a concrete Start and End for Humanity, and that we should prepare for our own Afterlife instead of working for continued improvement of Humanity for centuries and millennia to come.

By pure logic, if Humanity has an Eternity to "do better", but God only has a limited window to let things not get much worse, humanity will always outperform God.

[bluesjnr]

Well, with God like powers, I'd start a little further out with practical matters. How about I eliminate starvation across the planet that I made by making it temperate and fertile throughout.

As a mortal I know that's not do-able but as a God it's a simple, "and so it shall be".

Or are we just discussing moral issues here?

[psionl0]

Originally Posted by bluesjnr

Or are we just discussing moral issues here?

No, any strategy can be up for discussion.

Re-creating a perfect death-free environment seems a no brainer. The problem is what to do about people who would foul things up?

[porch]

I am God, the Perfect Being. I have no unfulfilled wants or needs. Why would I create anything?

[smartcooky]

God does not exist so It didn't do anything - how could we not do better than a fake, imaginary deity that did nothing?

[psionl0]

Originally Posted by smartcooky

God does not exist so It didn't do anything - how could we not do better than a fake, imaginary deity that did nothing?

So what is Lukraak_Sisser complaiing about?

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Originally Posted by psionl0

So what is Lukraak_Sisser complaiing about?

I was not complaining, I was pointing out that if we designed the world at the moment we'd do a better job than the imaginary god(s) of the world's religions, especially the so-called omnipotent, all-knowing, benevolent god of the Abrahamic religions.

Just a few things.
1: Make a body/immune system that can recognize and defeat cancer.
2: Distribute resources equally
3: Do not create biological cravings I find forbidden.
4: If giving holy texts, make them actually clear and explain things like steam power, immunology, electricity etc etc while at the same time ensuring all people can access the guidelines at all times rather than a single obscure prophet in a remote part of the world.
5: Give women active control over their own fertility.
etc etc.

[lionking]

Any thread assuming god is stupid and is not worth responding to.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by psionl0

Rather than derail the other thread, I thought that this topic deserved its own thread.

Normally the existence of all of the evil in this world is taken as evidence that there is no god or that if God exists then he must be a pretty unsavoury character.

But assuming that God made the world the way it is today, what would be the strategy that we could employ if we had God-like powers? Would we do away with free will and make it impossible for people to do evil things? Would we remove evil people from the world? How would we decide when somebody has lost the right to exist in this world? Is it ok if the occasional good person has to be eradicated for the "greater good" (the needs of the many etc etc)?

Which definition of god are we to use to answer your post?

[Darat]

Originally Posted by lionking

Any thread assuming god is stupid and is not worth responding to.

Disagree- I like discussing fantasy ideas.

[psionl0]

Originally Posted by Darat

Which definition of god are we to use to answer your post?

The biblical God? (You could probably substitute another god if you wished since this is about the created world).

[RolandRat]

Originally Posted by psionl0

No, any strategy can be up for discussion.

Re-creating a perfect death-free environment seems a no brainer. The problem is what to do about people who would foul things up?

Wouldn't that cause its own problems? Such as leading to an over-populated planet?

[Olmstead]

I can make exactly the same world as ours, but get rid of all congenital diseases. BAM! Already better than God.

I could fine tune some other stuff, but you aren't asking for a perfect world. You're asking for one that's better.

[Steve]

The "World", ie the planet, is exactly as created by physics. The particularly trivial human aspects currently contained on this planet are exactly as created by humans. There is no "job" here that involved any human invented gods.

So the question should be either "Can humans do a better job than physics?", or, "Can humans do a better job than humans?". In both cases the answer is no.

[bluesjnr]

Originally Posted by RolandRat

Wouldn't that cause its own problems? Such as leading to an over-populated planet?

That won't matter because I have created a soul within you and I'll dispense with your earthly body when you reach 33 years old upon which your soul will join me in Heaven (provided you meet my criteria). I have **** loads of room up here and souls are ethereal anyway.

[bluesjnr]

Originally Posted by Steve

The "World", ie the planet, is exactly as created by physics. The particularly trivial human aspects currently contained on this planet are exactly as created by humans. There is no "job" here that involved any human invented gods.

So the question should be either "Can humans do a better job than physics?", or, "Can humans do a better job than humans?". In both cases the answer is no.

Yeah, but we're havin' fun with the God thing...

[smartcooky]

Originally Posted by RolandRat

Wouldn't that cause its own problems? Such as leading to an over-populated planet?

No, because space is infinite, so the non-existent Magic Sky Daddy can just create an ever increasing number or imaginary planets to accommodate the ever increasing population.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by bluesjnr

Yeah, but we're havin' fun with the God thing...

Yeah, I know. All gods have built-in flaws that humans are supposed to be able to compensate for. Humans are spectacularly poor at doing so.

[Ryan O'Dine]

Surely an omnipotent God could create humans who have free will and always make the right decisions.

[Hellbound]

How about giving my creations perfect empathy?

If you harm another, you feel that harm yourself, just as they do.

If you see someone suffering, you’d understand exactly what they’re feeling.

Seems like it would go a looooong way towards making things better, with a relatively minor change.


Sent from my volcanic island lair using carrier pigeon.

[Apathia]

Since we make Gods in the image of ourselves, as a projection of our nature ...
FUBAR.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Suggestions from Harry 'Haywire' McClintock.

The Big Rock Candy Mountain

He's not asking for very much.

[bluesjnr]

Originally Posted by Hellbound

How about giving my creations perfect empathy?

If you harm another, you feel that harm yourself, just as they do. **** that, I want pain free retribution if required and justified.

If you see someone suffering, you’d understand exactly what they’re feeling. **** that, my neighbour might have piles along with his gout! I'd have to cast my eyes when he was around.

Seems like it would go a looooong way towards making things better, with a relatively minor change. I ain't feelin' it, I want another, better God please.

[bruto]

I would imagine it depends on what we mean by "better" and how much better we require for it to count.

We have the usual argument that, bad as it is, this is the best of all possible worlds, because of unintended consequences, but even if so, if one were oneself a god, I think it might be possible to tweak things a little.

Forget the all-or-nothing idea that we could, somehow, eliminate all the evil and make for some utopia. But what would be the uncontrollable consequence, for example, of making death by cancer half as painful as it is now? What would be the uncontrollable consequence of making human beings immune to poison ivy toxin? You get the idea. A life can be made a little nicer without flopping from misery to bliss.

I suspect we would have a very hard time, and a lot of accidental negatives, engineering a world without any evil, or without any disease, etc., at least if one presumes a world we can still recognize and that still can contain us.

I also don't think I'd trust any actual human being or group of them to do the job without accidentally or intentionally robbing us of some aspect of its greatness and wonder. And, in addition, it might depend on whether one has to do it all at once or can do it a bit at a time, try things out, make corrections, etc.

But I don't see any reason why, if such a thing were even remotely feasible, it would not be possible to make the world just a little bit better.

[smartcooky]

Originally Posted by Ryan O'Dine

Surely an omnipotent God could create humans who have free will and always make the right decisions.

Well, the late great Irish comedian Dave Allen has an interesting take on this

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

[HansMustermann]

Look, I have the same answer I always have, to the apology that this is the best universe God could make. And it doesn't even rely on "well, if he's not omnipotent if there's something he can't do."

Well, the point is: the same religious folks keep telling me that God DID make an infinitely better and more pleasant world. In fact, they keep telling me that I'll go there if I brown-nose Jesus hard enough.

So, then why not this one. No, stuff like "but that one is non-corporeal" doesn't count. If detail X gets in the way of things being better, then just change detail X. Otherwise it's like saying I can't be a better neighbour, 'cause that would involve stopping being a bellend.

[I Am The Scum]

You guys are thinking too small. Why would God even make physical-bodied humans capable of pain and death in the first place? If heaven is real, and perfectly blissful all the time, then God could just make us all souls in heaven and then be done with it.

[jrhowell]

I am curious to see whether anyone is going to argue the opposite side, giving a coherent argument that this world is the result of God doing the best that anyone could ever do.

I can't think of anything that would be reasonable given God's supposed powers and just saying that it must be so or God would have done it differently is more of an argument for the non-existence of God.

[Olmstead]

Originally Posted by I Am The Scum

You guys are thinking too small. Why would God even make physical-bodied humans capable of pain and death in the first place? If heaven is real, and perfectly blissful all the time, then God could just make us all souls in heaven and then be done with it.

YOU are thinking too small. Why would God make anything?

Is he bored? Is he lonely? Does he need a hug?

Is he a twisted monstrosity driven mad by aeons of isolation who just wants to see souls scream?

Did his teacher tell him to do it?

[HansMustermann]

Originally Posted by Olmstead

Did his teacher tell him to do it?

Duh, obviously. I mean, he sat on his butt and did nothing until the very last week, and then did a rush job. You tell me if that's not a student

[bruto]

Originally Posted by I Am The Scum

You guys are thinking too small. Why would God even make physical-bodied humans capable of pain and death in the first place? If heaven is real, and perfectly blissful all the time, then God could just make us all souls in heaven and then be done with it.

A perfect and complete god would be changeless, boringly knowing everything about everything. Nothing can really happen at all unless he tells a story or makes a thing that is purposely not about himself. A world that is not just more god must inherently be faulty. The one, paradoxical, thing an omni-this and omni-that god cannot do is experience. Novelty, surprise, drama, misadventure or adventure, are alien to him. He would have to create something that runs on its own, without his input. The world is his ant farm.

But of course the God imagined in the Bible and elsewhere is too human, too needy, too limited by the human imagination to do it right, and keeps succumbing to the urge to meddle, change things around, get out the old magnifying glass and see what happens.

We could be real, or as old Bishop Berkeley figured, products of God's imagination. But either way, I think it reasonable that a god would create a world in reality or in imagination (if the existence of a god can even allow there to be a difference there), and that that world would be seeded with imperfections to make it interesting and lively.

The problem with the Biblical God is that he's never satisfied with his work, and keeps having to fiddle with it and steer the story, and like a master criminal who has to drop hints of his genius, he demands recognition and worship.

I think if there were a real god who did the job right, he would take pains to avoid involvement and visibility, and the evidence of a job well done would be the atheism of his subjects. After all, he's God. He doesn't need us to tell him that.

[Trebuchet]

Maybe not put the playground next to the sewer....

[theprestige]

Anyone who thinks they could do a better job with the entire universe is welcome to start by doing a better job with this forum.

[bluesjnr]

Originally Posted by theprestige

Anyone who thinks they could do a better job with the entire universe is welcome to start by doing a better job with this forum.

C'mon, baby steps eh?

Universe first then I'll deal with this collection of cacodemonic hellions.

[porch]

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

Maybe not put the playground next to the sewer....

Ah yes, the age old conundrum, The Problem of Anus. Yet, personal revelation has it that God is really into butt stuff. Problem solved.

[HansMustermann]

Originally Posted by bruto

A perfect and complete god would be changeless, boringly knowing everything about everything.

It being boring for God, doesn't prevent it from being better for everyone else involved.

I mean, for example, it would be less boring for a preschool teacher to give all the kids guns and 10 minutes to find themselves a 'spawn position' as it were, and watch the results. Think about the excitement. Think of the suspense. Will Jimmy make it behind cover before little Susie and Jane teach him a brutal lesson about pulling girls' hair? Will Tom go first for settling his sandbox rivalry with Dick and Harry, or teach a lesson to that little bitch Mary who never shares her toys? The possibilities are endless. And what will the POLICE do when they arrive? They can't just start shooting everyone with a gun, can they? Or will they just stand outside eating donuts and preventing everyone else from interfering? Oh, the suspense is killing me. No, wait, that's the improper cover.

On the other hand, I think most people would agree that it's better for everyone ELSE if they don't.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by I Am The Scum

You guys are thinking too small. Why would God even make physical-bodied humans capable of pain and death in the first place? If heaven is real, and perfectly blissful all the time, then God could just make us all souls in heaven and then be done with it.

Toys. Eternity is along time to be bored.

[psionl0]

Originally Posted by Hellbound

How about giving my creations perfect empathy?

If you harm another, you feel that harm yourself, just as they do.

If you see someone suffering, you’d understand exactly what they’re feeling.

Seems like it would go a looooong way towards making things better, with a relatively minor change.


Sent from my volcanic island lair using carrier pigeon.

An interesting idea but if the only reason somebody would not harm another is that they would instantly feel that harm themself then would they be heaven-worthy or worthy of becoming a God?

How would you distinguish between somebody who genuinely avoids harming others (even if it results in personal benefit) and somebody who is only trying to avoid punishment?

[bruto]

Originally Posted by psionl0

An interesting idea but if the only reason somebody would not harm another is that they would instantly feel that harm themself then would they be heaven-worthy or worthy of becoming a God?

How would you distinguish between somebody who genuinely avoids harming others (even if it results in personal benefit) and somebody who is only trying to avoid punishment?

Does the suggestion require that it's the only reason? What reason is there now? Does feeling empathy somehow obviate other reasons for doing the right thing? Does it make people worse? Some people would consider empathy a virtue. Is it less good if it's automatic and removed from the "vice and virtue" fray?

As it is now people do the right thing for many reasons, some of them selfish. If a god can judge them now, the same ought to be true with the addition of more consistent empathy.