Could we do a better job with the world than God did? - Page 4

psionl0 · 23rd August 2022, 08:46 PM

Originally Posted by HansMustermann

The problem is still that God made that tree. I mean, it's like putting a claymore mine in the son's room, and if he trips it, hey, it's his fault for not listening to me to mind the wire

If God were merely creating humans that would reside in Heaven and Earth was just an incubator then there would be no need to include any deadly hazards on Earth.

If God created humans that he intended to be gods then that is a much tougher apprenticeship.

psionl0 · 23rd August 2022, 08:48 PM

Originally Posted by Finster

Before he even pulled the metaphorical trigger to create the universe he would have known exactly how the whole garden thing would play out and chose to pull the trigger.

That would imply that God programmed his creations to do what they did instead of giving them free will.

Are you saying that God intended to create bots or that he can't create anything but bots?

Darat · 24th August 2022, 01:40 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

...snip...
If God created humans that he intended to be gods then that is a much tougher apprenticeship.

Why would it be - does god not understand itself?

psionl0 · 24th August 2022, 03:10 AM

Darat · 24th August 2022, 03:18 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Your god went through the same apprenticeship?

Steve · 24th August 2022, 03:51 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Your god went through the same apprenticeship?

Seems like it's gods all the way down (up?).

Darat · 24th August 2022, 04:09 AM

Originally Posted by Steve

Seems like it's gods all the way down (up?).

I do get bored with turtle soup!

HansMustermann · 24th August 2022, 04:17 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

If God were merely creating humans that would reside in Heaven and Earth was just an incubator then there would be no need to include any deadly hazards on Earth.

Funny, because we're told there were none in Eden.

And if God actually planned all along to have some later, then he could have just done so. No need to act like a prick and blame those guys for eating the fruit.

psionl0 · 24th August 2022, 04:31 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Your god went through the same apprenticeship?

This is just another one of your bad faith arguments.

Darat · 24th August 2022, 04:35 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

This is just another one of your bad faith arguments.

What on earth - or eden are you now going on about - you claim we are suffering because your god wants us to become gods, but your god didn't have to do the same apprenticeship - do you see the logical problem with your claim? Everyone else does.

Olmstead · 24th August 2022, 04:50 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

What on earth - or eden are you now going on about - you claim we are suffering because your god wants us to become gods, but your god didn't have to do the same apprenticeship - do you see the logical problem with your claim? Everyone else does.

It's existential angst taken to a completely new level. Living forever in paradise sounds nice, but you're still an unimportant speck who needs to answer to the big guy. But what if you could be a GOD!

Steve · 24th August 2022, 05:15 AM

Originally Posted by Olmstead

It's existential angst taken to a completely new level. Living forever in paradise sounds nice, but you're still an unimportant speck who needs to answer to the big guy. But what if you could be a GOD!

If everybody is a god is anyone really a god?

psionl0 · 24th August 2022, 05:18 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

What on earth - or eden are you now going on about - you claim we are suffering because your god wants us to become gods, but your god didn't have to do the same apprenticeship - do you see the logical problem with your claim? Everyone else does.

When would a being who is supposed to have lived eternally have done an apprenticeship?

Myriad · 24th August 2022, 05:23 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

That would imply that God programmed his creations to do what they did instead of giving them free will.

Are you saying that God intended to create bots or that he can't create anything but bots?

The training-to-become-gods idea only makes sense if acts of free will are an exception to God's omniscience. Is that what you're hypothesizing?

Because if God knows what a creation will do from the outset, that is no different from creating bots.

Olmstead · 24th August 2022, 05:28 AM

Originally Posted by Steve

If everybody is a god is anyone really a god?

You think you have what it takes to become a GOD? Only the chosen few will pass God's test. Like me!

Darat · 24th August 2022, 05:28 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

When would a being who is supposed to have lived eternally have done an apprenticeship?

It's your fanfic not mine.

Steve · 24th August 2022, 05:39 AM

Originally Posted by Olmstead

You think you have what it takes to become a GOD? Only the chosen few will pass God's test. Like me!

I would make a lousy god, just like all the rest. So yes, I have what it takes.

HansMustermann · 24th August 2022, 07:26 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

When would a being who is supposed to have lived eternally have done an apprenticeship?

It seems to me like he'd have all the time in that eternity for it, innit?

Ryan O'Dine · 24th August 2022, 07:28 AM

Originally Posted by Myriad

The training-to-become-gods idea only makes sense if acts of free will are an exception to God's omniscience. Is that what you're hypothesizing?

Because if God knows what a creation will do from the outset, that is no different from creating bots.

Not sure I agree with that last. Seems to me God can know in advance what a person is going to choose without having forced that choice. That is, God knows what will happen because He stands outside time, not because He manipulates every fork in every juncture.

Or, to belabor the point, "in advance," "is going to" and "what will happen" are temporal terms that apply to people but not (certain definitions of) God.

jrhowell · 24th August 2022, 07:30 AM

Since the topic of this thread is "could we do a better job" and there is now an added premise that the end goal is the existence of more gods how about creating them through mitosis? Apparently God already invented that.

Steve · 24th August 2022, 07:42 AM

Originally Posted by Olmstead

You think you have what it takes to become a GOD? Only the chosen few will pass God's test. Like me!

deleted, dupe.

psionl0 · 24th August 2022, 07:54 AM

Originally Posted by Myriad

Because if God knows what a creation will do from the outset, that is no different from creating bots.

That's the point I was trying to make.

jrhowell · 24th August 2022, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by Myriad

The training-to-become-gods idea only makes sense if acts of free will are an exception to God's omniscience. Is that what you're hypothesizing?

Because if God knows what a creation will do from the outset, that is no different from creating bots.

I don't see how the non-bot alternative is any better.

God allows its creations to chose A or B in such a way that even God, knowing everything there is to know about a person's genetics and history, can't tell for certain ahead of time what choice someone will make. That appears to be indistinguishable from people making occasional random choices.

And then God keeps the ones that end up choosing A and discards (horribly) those that choose B.

The end result is that God is left with only people who choose A. To me it's the same as if he had just made them that way to begin with.

jrhowell · 24th August 2022, 12:52 PM

There is an argument that God does not provide proof of his existence because that would make it too obvious which path people should choose and would interfere with our free will. I believe that we could do better than God by making the true situation clear in an undeniable way so that decisions could be made based on reason instead of blind faith.

HansMustermann · 24th August 2022, 02:03 PM

My objection would be even simpler: if you need people who trained, just offer some training. It's what we do with the marines, brain surgeons, nuclear physicists, etc. No need to do the whole butthurt thing and dispense punishments.

Additionally, it still doesn't explain Hell.

bruto · 24th August 2022, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by Ryan O'Dine

Not sure I agree with that last. Seems to me God can know in advance what a person is going to choose without having forced that choice. That is, God knows what will happen because He stands outside time, not because He manipulates every fork in every juncture.

Or, to belabor the point, "in advance," "is going to" and "what will happen" are temporal terms that apply to people but not (certain definitions of) God.

But if the forecast is true, it is then true that it must happen that way, and if it must, it might as well be called forced even if the person making the decision doesn't realize it. If the forecast is true, he cannot do anything but that. I think if a god is going to grant free will, he must agree not to peek.

Thor 2 · 24th August 2022, 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by jrhowell

I don't see how the non-bot alternative is any better.

God allows its creations to chose A or B in such a way that even God, knowing everything there is to know about a person's genetics and history, can't tell for certain ahead of time what choice someone will make. That appears to be indistinguishable from people making occasional random choices.

And then God keeps the ones that end up choosing A and discards (horribly) those that choose B.

The end result is that God is left with only people who choose A. To me it's the same as if he had just made them that way to begin with.

Has always been a favourite argument of mine.

Try it on the religious though and it is dismissed as absurd because ....... reasons.

bruto · 24th August 2022, 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by jrhowell

There is an argument that God does not provide proof of his existence because that would make it too obvious which path people should choose and would interfere with our free will. I believe that we could do better than God by making the true situation clear in an undeniable way so that decisions could be made based on reason instead of blind faith.

That argument never made sense to me. If knowing what's best violates free will, what's free will worth? What good is freedom to make a wild guess, if we go to hell for guessing wrong? Our behavior may be governed by what we know, but not our free will. And if God really wanted us not to know, he ought to stop dicking around with half-measures, cheap miracles, bleeding statues and Jesus on toast.

HansMustermann · 24th August 2022, 03:57 PM

Actually, the free willy argument is even funnier.

1 John 3:5-6 tells us that once you've accepted Jesus you can't sin. In fact, 1 John 3:6 says, and I quote, "No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him." That's right, you don't even know Jesus if you can still sin.

Seems to me like God has no problem with those kind of choices becoming impossible, if you've accepted the EULA.

So, how does that work? He loves free willy so much that he grants more of it to the pagans than to his true followers?

And what was the whole point of the exercise then? I mean, free will to sin is obviously not that important, and you can live quite happily for literally eternity without it. So what was the point? Just to have an excuse to send some people to Hell?

HansMustermann · 24th August 2022, 04:03 PM

Besides, what does free will there even mean? God had no problem making some things impossible, no matter how much you'd like to decide to do that. Like, you can't just decide to flap your arms and fly. You can't decide to just be cancer-proof. Etc.

So God is really just letting you choose from the subset that he decided. And not choose the things he didn't want you to.

So how does that free will force God to allow anything? He's... what? Forced to allow you to do the things HE decided to allow? That's circular at best.

And if anything, it only says something about HIS priorities.

xterra · 24th August 2022, 05:41 PM

Why for all (?) other animals with hair on their heads and bodies is the hair the same length, but for humans hair on the head grows longer?

How does this make sense?

psionl0 · 24th August 2022, 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

It's your fanfic not mine.

No, this nonsense about God doing an apprenticeship is strictly your argument. You won't find it in any post of mine.

Trebuchet · 24th August 2022, 06:07 PM

I wouldn't have made Donald Trump my annointed representative on earth, as most Republicans seem to believe.

HansMustermann · 25th August 2022, 12:59 AM

@psionl0
And THAT is exactly the problem with your argument, that's what we're trying to tell you:

Originally Posted by psionl0

If God created humans that he intended to be gods then that is a much tougher apprenticeship.

Yet you insist that God needed no such apprenticeship. Then why is it needed for making more gods? Just as a hazing ritual?

Olmstead · 25th August 2022, 02:18 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

No, this nonsense about God doing an apprenticeship is strictly your argument. You won't find it in any post of mine.

Why don't you just pick another mythology to believe in? Many of them are much more exciting, and some are even internally consistent. Hell, forget mythology. Pick a fictional pantheon. You could hang around Sharess' festhalls.

psionl0 · 25th August 2022, 02:23 AM

Originally Posted by HansMustermann

@psionl0
And THAT is exactly the problem with your argument, that's what we're trying to tell you:

Yet you insist that God needed no such apprenticeship. Then why is it needed for making more gods? Just as a hazing ritual?

GOTO 133

psionl0 · 25th August 2022, 02:28 AM

Originally Posted by Olmstead

Why don't you just pick another mythology to believe in?

Almost every thread in this section is about the biblical God. Why should I choose a hypothetical that nobody else is interested in?

HansMustermann · 25th August 2022, 02:33 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

GOTO 133

GOTO 138

psionl0 · 25th August 2022, 03:29 AM

Originally Posted by HansMustermann

GOTO 138

And who would apprentice the only supreme being in the universe?

HansMustermann · 25th August 2022, 03:36 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

And who would apprentice the only supreme being in the universe?

Well, that brings us back to the other point: if God obviously can learn that job, not only without apprenticeship, but without even doing that job at all until Genesis 1, that is to say he needed ZERO job experience too, and also without needing to ask anyone or read a manual or anything... why does anyone else need an apprenticeship? Just as some hazing ritual?

I mean, it seems to me like even having someone to ask who's done that job before (you know, God) would already be more info than he had. He did just fine without even asking anyone, much less apprenticeship. Why the assumption than anyone else needs an apprenticeship, then?

I'm sure the rest of us, if we managed to do X just fine on the first try and without needing any info, we'd assume almost any other person would also do just fine. We'd throw in a "just ask if you run into problems" to be on the safe side, not assume that you need to kick that guy in the nuts and blame some BS on him to get him to do an apprenticeship first.

23rd August 2022, 08:46 PM	#121
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,922	Originally Posted by HansMustermann The problem is still that God made that tree. I mean, it's like putting a claymore mine in the son's room, and if he trips it, hey, it's his fault for not listening to me to mind the wire If God were merely creating humans that would reside in Heaven and Earth was just an incubator then there would be no need to include any deadly hazards on Earth. If God created humans that he intended to be gods then that is a much tougher apprenticeship.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

23rd August 2022, 08:48 PM	#122
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,922	Originally Posted by Finster Before he even pulled the metaphorical trigger to create the universe he would have known exactly how the whole garden thing would play out and chose to pull the trigger. That would imply that God programmed his creations to do what they did instead of giving them free will. Are you saying that God intended to create bots or that he can't create anything but bots?
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

24th August 2022, 01:40 AM	#123
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 108,048	Originally Posted by psionl0 ...snip... If God created humans that he intended to be gods then that is a much tougher apprenticeship. Why would it be - does god not understand itself?
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

24th August 2022, 03:10 AM	#124
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,922
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

24th August 2022, 03:18 AM	#125
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 108,048	Originally Posted by psionl0 Your god went through the same apprenticeship?
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

24th August 2022, 03:51 AM	#126
Steve Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 12,178	Originally Posted by Darat Your god went through the same apprenticeship? Seems like it's gods all the way down (up?).
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

24th August 2022, 04:09 AM	#127
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 108,048	Originally Posted by Steve Seems like it's gods all the way down (up?). I do get bored with turtle soup!
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

24th August 2022, 04:17 AM	#128
HansMustermann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 21,518	Originally Posted by psionl0 If God were merely creating humans that would reside in Heaven and Earth was just an incubator then there would be no need to include any deadly hazards on Earth. Funny, because we're told there were none in Eden. And if God actually planned all along to have some later, then he could have just done so. No need to act like a prick and blame those guys for eating the fruit.
	__________________ Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

24th August 2022, 04:31 AM	#129
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,922	Originally Posted by Darat Your god went through the same apprenticeship? This is just another one of your bad faith arguments.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

24th August 2022, 04:35 AM	#130
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 108,048	Originally Posted by psionl0 This is just another one of your bad faith arguments. What on earth - or eden are you now going on about - you claim we are suffering because your god wants us to become gods, but your god didn't have to do the same apprenticeship - do you see the logical problem with your claim? Everyone else does.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

24th August 2022, 04:50 AM	#131
Olmstead Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 1,398	Originally Posted by Darat What on earth - or eden are you now going on about - you claim we are suffering because your god wants us to become gods, but your god didn't have to do the same apprenticeship - do you see the logical problem with your claim? Everyone else does. It's existential angst taken to a completely new level. Living forever in paradise sounds nice, but you're still an unimportant speck who needs to answer to the big guy. But what if you could be a GOD!

24th August 2022, 05:15 AM	#132
Steve Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 12,178	Originally Posted by Olmstead It's existential angst taken to a completely new level. Living forever in paradise sounds nice, but you're still an unimportant speck who needs to answer to the big guy. But what if you could be a GOD! If everybody is a god is anyone really a god?
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

24th August 2022, 05:18 AM	#133
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,922	Originally Posted by Darat What on earth - or eden are you now going on about - you claim we are suffering because your god wants us to become gods, but your god didn't have to do the same apprenticeship - do you see the logical problem with your claim? Everyone else does. When would a being who is supposed to have lived eternally have done an apprenticeship?
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

24th August 2022, 05:23 AM	#134
Myriad The Clarity Is Devastating Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Betwixt Posts: 19,969	Originally Posted by psionl0 That would imply that God programmed his creations to do what they did instead of giving them free will. Are you saying that God intended to create bots or that he can't create anything but bots? The training-to-become-gods idea only makes sense if acts of free will are an exception to God's omniscience. Is that what you're hypothesizing? Because if God knows what a creation will do from the outset, that is no different from creating bots.
	__________________ A zømbie once bit my sister...

24th August 2022, 05:28 AM	#135
Olmstead Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 1,398	Originally Posted by Steve If everybody is a god is anyone really a god? You think you have what it takes to become a GOD? Only the chosen few will pass God's test. Like me!

24th August 2022, 05:28 AM	#136
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 108,048	Originally Posted by psionl0 When would a being who is supposed to have lived eternally have done an apprenticeship? It's your fanfic not mine.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

24th August 2022, 05:39 AM	#137
Steve Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 12,178	Originally Posted by Olmstead You think you have what it takes to become a GOD? Only the chosen few will pass God's test. Like me! I would make a lousy god, just like all the rest. So yes, I have what it takes.
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

24th August 2022, 07:26 AM	#138
HansMustermann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 21,518	Originally Posted by psionl0 When would a being who is supposed to have lived eternally have done an apprenticeship? It seems to me like he'd have all the time in that eternity for it, innit?
	__________________ Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

24th August 2022, 07:28 AM	#139
Ryan O'Dine OD’ing on Damitol Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Walk in an ever expanding Archimedean spiral and you'll find me eventually Posts: 2,104	Originally Posted by Myriad The training-to-become-gods idea only makes sense if acts of free will are an exception to God's omniscience. Is that what you're hypothesizing? Because if God knows what a creation will do from the outset, that is no different from creating bots. Not sure I agree with that last. Seems to me God can know in advance what a person is going to choose without having forced that choice. That is, God knows what will happen because He stands outside time, not because He manipulates every fork in every juncture. Or, to belabor the point, "in advance," "is going to" and "what will happen" are temporal terms that apply to people but not (certain definitions of) God.
	__________________ I collect people like you in little formaldehyde bottles in my basement. (Not a threat. A hobby.)

24th August 2022, 07:30 AM	#140
jrhowell Muse Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Tampa Bay, Florida Posts: 795	Since the topic of this thread is "could we do a better job" and there is now an added premise that the end goal is the existence of more gods how about creating them through mitosis? Apparently God already invented that.

24th August 2022, 07:42 AM	#141
Steve Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 12,178	Originally Posted by Olmstead You think you have what it takes to become a GOD? Only the chosen few will pass God's test. Like me! deleted, dupe.
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

24th August 2022, 07:54 AM	#142
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,922	Originally Posted by Myriad Because if God knows what a creation will do from the outset, that is no different from creating bots. That's the point I was trying to make.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

24th August 2022, 12:44 PM	#143
jrhowell Muse Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Tampa Bay, Florida Posts: 795	Originally Posted by Myriad The training-to-become-gods idea only makes sense if acts of free will are an exception to God's omniscience. Is that what you're hypothesizing? Because if God knows what a creation will do from the outset, that is no different from creating bots. I don't see how the non-bot alternative is any better. God allows its creations to chose A or B in such a way that even God, knowing everything there is to know about a person's genetics and history, can't tell for certain ahead of time what choice someone will make. That appears to be indistinguishable from people making occasional random choices. And then God keeps the ones that end up choosing A and discards (horribly) those that choose B. The end result is that God is left with only people who choose A. To me it's the same as if he had just made them that way to begin with.

24th August 2022, 12:52 PM	#144
jrhowell Muse Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Tampa Bay, Florida Posts: 795	There is an argument that God does not provide proof of his existence because that would make it too obvious which path people should choose and would interfere with our free will. I believe that we could do better than God by making the true situation clear in an undeniable way so that decisions could be made based on reason instead of blind faith.

24th August 2022, 02:03 PM	#145
HansMustermann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 21,518	My objection would be even simpler: if you need people who trained, just offer some training. It's what we do with the marines, brain surgeons, nuclear physicists, etc. No need to do the whole butthurt thing and dispense punishments. Additionally, it still doesn't explain Hell.
	__________________ Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

24th August 2022, 03:16 PM	#146
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 34,222	Originally Posted by Ryan O'Dine Not sure I agree with that last. Seems to me God can know in advance what a person is going to choose without having forced that choice. That is, God knows what will happen because He stands outside time, not because He manipulates every fork in every juncture. Or, to belabor the point, "in advance," "is going to" and "what will happen" are temporal terms that apply to people but not (certain definitions of) God. But if the forecast is true, it is then true that it must happen that way, and if it must, it might as well be called forced even if the person making the decision doesn't realize it. If the forecast is true, he cannot do anything but that. I think if a god is going to grant free will, he must agree not to peek.
	__________________ Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi)

24th August 2022, 03:18 PM	#147
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane. Posts: 7,152	Originally Posted by jrhowell I don't see how the non-bot alternative is any better. God allows its creations to chose A or B in such a way that even God, knowing everything there is to know about a person's genetics and history, can't tell for certain ahead of time what choice someone will make. That appears to be indistinguishable from people making occasional random choices. And then God keeps the ones that end up choosing A and discards (horribly) those that choose B. The end result is that God is left with only people who choose A. To me it's the same as if he had just made them that way to begin with. Has always been a favourite argument of mine. Try it on the religious though and it is dismissed as absurd because ....... reasons.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

24th August 2022, 03:20 PM	#148
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 34,222	Originally Posted by jrhowell There is an argument that God does not provide proof of his existence because that would make it too obvious which path people should choose and would interfere with our free will. I believe that we could do better than God by making the true situation clear in an undeniable way so that decisions could be made based on reason instead of blind faith. That argument never made sense to me. If knowing what's best violates free will, what's free will worth? What good is freedom to make a wild guess, if we go to hell for guessing wrong? Our behavior may be governed by what we know, but not our free will. And if God really wanted us not to know, he ought to stop dicking around with half-measures, cheap miracles, bleeding statues and Jesus on toast.
	__________________ Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi)

24th August 2022, 03:57 PM	#149
HansMustermann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 21,518	Actually, the free willy argument is even funnier. 1 John 3:5-6 tells us that once you've accepted Jesus you can't sin. In fact, 1 John 3:6 says, and I quote, "No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him." That's right, you don't even know Jesus if you can still sin. Seems to me like God has no problem with those kind of choices becoming impossible, if you've accepted the EULA. So, how does that work? He loves free willy so much that he grants more of it to the pagans than to his true followers? And what was the whole point of the exercise then? I mean, free will to sin is obviously not that important, and you can live quite happily for literally eternity without it. So what was the point? Just to have an excuse to send some people to Hell?
	__________________ Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

24th August 2022, 04:03 PM	#150
HansMustermann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 21,518	Besides, what does free will there even mean? God had no problem making some things impossible, no matter how much you'd like to decide to do that. Like, you can't just decide to flap your arms and fly. You can't decide to just be cancer-proof. Etc. So God is really just letting you choose from the subset that he decided. And not choose the things he didn't want you to. So how does that free will force God to allow anything? He's... what? Forced to allow you to do the things HE decided to allow? That's circular at best. And if anything, it only says something about HIS priorities.
	__________________ Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

24th August 2022, 05:41 PM	#151
xterra So far, so good... Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: On the outskirts of Nowhere; the middle was too crowded Posts: 3,971	Why for all (?) other animals with hair on their heads and bodies is the hair the same length, but for humans hair on the head grows longer? How does this make sense?
	__________________ Over we go....

24th August 2022, 05:51 PM	#152
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,922	Originally Posted by Darat It's your fanfic not mine. No, this nonsense about God doing an apprenticeship is strictly your argument. You won't find it in any post of mine.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

24th August 2022, 06:07 PM	#153
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Port Townsend, Washington Posts: 35,974	I wouldn't have made Donald Trump my annointed representative on earth, as most Republicans seem to believe.
	__________________ Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.

25th August 2022, 12:59 AM	#154
HansMustermann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 21,518	@psionl0 And THAT is exactly the problem with your argument, that's what we're trying to tell you: Originally Posted by psionl0 If God created humans that he intended to be gods then that is a much tougher apprenticeship. Yet you insist that God needed no such apprenticeship. Then why is it needed for making more gods? Just as a hazing ritual?
	__________________ Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

25th August 2022, 02:18 AM	#155
Olmstead Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 1,398	Originally Posted by psionl0 No, this nonsense about God doing an apprenticeship is strictly your argument. You won't find it in any post of mine. Why don't you just pick another mythology to believe in? Many of them are much more exciting, and some are even internally consistent. Hell, forget mythology. Pick a fictional pantheon. You could hang around Sharess' festhalls.