Could we do a better job with the world than God did? - Page 6

bruto · 26th August 2022, 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Yeah but that's insane. Why did God make Adam and Eve capable of screwing up?

I still think you're missing a big point. All your arguments might be good reasons for doubting the existence of God at all, but if you stipulate that he does exist, then "why" becomes irrelevant. God always has his reasons, and he doesn't have to tell them to you.

If God made the universe, he did the best thing God could do. If you made a different univers, you'd be God, and being God you could always say it's better than anyone else's. And it would be, because you're God, and God is always right. God is perfectly circular, and circularly perfect.

jrhowell · 26th August 2022, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by bruto

I still think you're missing a big point. All your arguments might be good reasons for doubting the existence of God at all, but if you stipulate that he does exist, then "why" becomes irrelevant. God always has his reasons, and he doesn't have to tell them to you.

For me the point of a thread discussing whether we could do better than God is to highlight all of the ways in which God's supposed actions are illogical and unreasonable in the hope that it will help to open the eyes of some believers.

(Also, the apologetics that are tried in defense of God's existence are good for a laugh.)

bluesjnr · 26th August 2022, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

I was thinking (yeah low hanging fruit) - god created the world with smallpox in it, we got rid of smallpox, so that's one up for us against god's work.

Yeah, but he responded with, "Hey, take that Wuhan".

Ryan O'Dine · 26th August 2022, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

The problem I see with psionl0 idea - i.e. suffering etc. part of the apprenticeship to become a god is that it seems to be introducing different power levels for gods. There is the big GOD - the eternal one, the big dude who formed the earth and heavens - and then these new gods that obviously can't be eternal, and equally obviously can't have formed the earth and heavens, can't be all powerful and so on. So why even call these newbies gods? I think it will cause unnecessary confusion for readers of psionl0's fiction. I would suggest trying a different label - perhaps "Scion" - a tad overused in fantasy but I've always liked it, it has a nice ring to it.

In fact, it's clear psionl0's God is operating under a set of fairly stringent rules Himself (He can't just create Gods de novo, they require an intricate process. Free will can't exist without an inclination toward evil. He can't just do away with death -- that's another intricate process. There are actually a lot of rules confining psionl0's God).

So the question is, who made those rules? That's the God we should all be worshiping.

Blue Mountain · 26th August 2022, 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

I was thinking (yeah low hanging fruit) - god created the world with smallpox in it, we got rid of smallpox, so that's one up for us against god's work.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

And that's sort the intellectual black hole that the god botheres have to pretend not to notice and think they are better than us for pretending to not notice.

Any problem God solves is a problem he created.

In computer programming we call this "debugging." Other enterprises where people build things, such as buildings, office plans, processes and procedures, cities and countries, constitutions, etc, often run into unexpected difficulties during and after the project.

Some Christian sects and other religions also suggest outright vandalism when it comes to problems with creation, with the devil and his cohorts actively screwing things up.

(My background: former evangelical Christian who now places the god of the Bible—Yahweh—on the same shelf as Dagon, Asherah, Baal; with numerous other shelves for various pantheons such as Greek, Roman, Norse, Celtic, etc. See Godchecker.com for a rather irreverent listing.)

jrhowell · 26th August 2022, 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by Ryan O'Dine

So the question is, who made those rules? That's the God we should all be worshiping.

That would be us humans!

(It looks like psionl0 got his wish. We are gods!)

GDon · 26th August 2022, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by Blue Mountain

Quote:

Any problem God solves is a problem he created.

In computer programming we call this "debugging."

In the marketing for those computer programs we call them "features". And I guess that is the case for theologians as well.

bruto · 26th August 2022, 06:56 PM

Originally Posted by jrhowell

For me the point of a thread discussing whether we could do better than God is to highlight all of the ways in which God's supposed actions are illogical and unreasonable in the hope that it will help to open the eyes of some believers.

(Also, the apologetics that are tried in defense of God's existence are good for a laugh.)

Sure, the reasons for doubting that God's supposed actions are logical or reasonable are serious enough if you're susceptible to logic and reason, but if like many theists you start from the premise that God is a necessary starting point, the race is over before the starting shot.

psionl0 · 26th August 2022, 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by Ryan O'Dine

In fact, it's clear psionl0's God is operating under a set of fairly stringent rules Himself (He can't just create Gods de novo, they require an intricate process. Free will can't exist without an inclination toward evil. He can't just do away with death -- that's another intricate process. There are actually a lot of rules confining psionl0's God).

So the question is, who made those rules? That's the God we should all be worshiping.

I am only commenting on what is written in the bible. If there are sections that contradict my interpretation then you are free to point them out. (Of course it is easier to just say "psionl0's God" or "p-god" and avoid having to make any intellectual contribution whatsoever).

The only "rule" I see here is that God can't defy logic (otherwise we would have that heavy rock). God can make some choices uncomfortable but he can't render choices impossible to consider otherwise he has only created a bot.

Darat · 27th August 2022, 03:02 AM

Originally Posted by jrhowell

Yes, except that some believe that diseases only exist because of Adam and Eve's original sin. So smallpox is our fault and not God's. It's not clear to me whether this is supposed to be a punishment, God actually cursing humans along with all other creatures with disease, or is in some metaphysical way a consequence of having sinned and not a direct action by God. If it's actually a punishment then we are sinning even more by avoiding disease and doctors will be destined for the ninth circle of hell.

But it doesn't matter whether it was Eve's fault or not. God created a world with smallpox in it, we got rid of it, the world is now a better place than the world god designed QED we can and have done better than god!

Darat · 27th August 2022, 03:04 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

I am only commenting on what is written in the bible. If there are sections that contradict my interpretation then you are free to point them out. (Of course it is easier to just say "psionl0's God" or "p-god" and avoid having to make any intellectual contribution whatsoever).

The only "rule" I see here is that God can't defy logic (otherwise we would have that heavy rock). God can make some choices uncomfortable but he can't render choices impossible to consider otherwise he has only created a bot.

Care to point out the passages that mention we are serving an apprenticeship?

psionl0 · 27th August 2022, 03:36 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Care to point out the passages that mention we are serving an apprenticeship?

You can use a different word if you like.

Steve · 27th August 2022, 03:49 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Care to point out the passages that mention we are serving an apprenticeship?

Originally Posted by psionl0

You can use a different word if you like.

What different word would you suggest? And then point out the passages with that different word in them.

Darat · 27th August 2022, 04:26 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

You can use a different word if you like.

It's your fiction, I know I made a suggestion for what to call your "lesser" gods but you are the author so in the end it is your choice of word.

Now again please point out where in the Bible it talks about us undertaking an apprenticeship to become a lesser-god (Scion would be much cooler)?

GDon · 27th August 2022, 04:52 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

God created a world with smallpox in it, we got rid of it, the world is now a better place than the world god designed QED we can and have done better than god!

One thought is that God created things like smallpox so that people had an opportunity to work against a common foe rather than against each other. Not claiming this for myself!

I like what the Tao Te Ching has to say about things like that:

“The best leaders value their words, and use them sparingly.
When they have accomplished their task,
the people say, “Amazing!
We did it all by ourselves!”

Also:

“The best leaders are those their people hardly know exist.
The next best is a leader who is loved and praised.
Next comes the one who is feared.
The worst one is the leader that is despised …

Darat · 27th August 2022, 06:32 AM

Originally Posted by GDon

One thought is that God created things like smallpox so that people had an opportunity to work against a common foe rather than against each other. Not claiming this for myself!

...snip.. …[/color]

Whichever way you slice it the world is better without smallpox so we have already done a better job than god did.

Now of course smallpox may have been part of psionl0's god's apprenticeship scheme and is it just me that now sees the creation of Adam as portrayed in the Sistine Chapel as god pointing at Adam and saying "You're fired!"

Ryan O'Dine · 27th August 2022, 06:37 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

I am only commenting on what is written in the bible. If there are sections that contradict my interpretation then you are free to point them out. (Of course it is easier to just say "psionl0's God" or "p-god" and avoid having to make any intellectual contribution whatsoever).

The only "rule" I see here is that God can't defy logic (otherwise we would have that heavy rock). God can make some choices uncomfortable but he can't render choices impossible to consider otherwise he has only created a bot.

Right, so who invented the rules of logic and made God follow them? I'm going to give Her a name: SuperGoddess.

SuperGoddess is better than (your interpretation of) the biblical God because She set the rules that God must follow. Furthermore, unlike the biblical God, not only does She not require worship from us, She doesn't even need to be known by us.

As GDon pointed out: “The best leaders are those their people hardly know exist."

Ryan O'Dine · 27th August 2022, 06:57 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

I am only commenting on what is written in the bible. If there are sections that contradict my interpretation then you are free to point them out. (Of course it is easier to just say "psionl0's God" or "p-god" and avoid having to make any intellectual contribution whatsoever).

The only "rule" I see here is that God can't defy logic (otherwise we would have that heavy rock). God can make some choices uncomfortable but he can't render choices impossible to consider otherwise he has only created a bot.

As for the first part, the Bible is like an abstract painting -- there's no right or wrong, you get out what you put in. In fact, I'm willing to bet your own interpretation has evolved over time, that you didn't just pick up the Bible the day you learned to read and come up with your current conclusions. Chances are your present interpretation will change sometime in the future. While you evolve as a person, so will your interpretations evolve.

For my own part I prefer interpretations that result in people behaving nicer, but those seem increasingly fewer and father between.

Cosmic Yak · 27th August 2022, 07:20 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

It's your fiction, I know I made a suggestion for what to call your "lesser" gods but you are the author so in the end it is your choice of word.

Now again please point out where in the Bible it talks about us undertaking an apprenticeship to become a lesser-god (Scion would be much cooler)?

I did post about this earlier: perhaps you missed it.
There is some basis for the idea that God (Jehovah) wants to turn us into gods (not Jehovah, but still godly in some way):

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak

'Not common' is a massive understatement.
However, you do have a point: it's just that I don't think you're expressing it very well. The wiki article on divinisation puts it much better.

bruto · 27th August 2022, 08:03 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Whichever way you slice it the world is better without smallpox so we have already done a better job than god did.

Now of course smallpox may have been part of psionl0's god's apprenticeship scheme and is it just me that now sees the creation of Adam as portrayed in the Sistine Chapel as god pointing at Adam and saying "You're fired!"

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...a24a92bd0d.png

I would consider the eradication of smallpox and such things as pretty good evidence that we can do it better, just as its existence seems like pretty good evidence that the world we're in was not created by a god, but a motivated theist could come up with a host of other possibilities.

We cannot, after all, run a control on the history of the world. We can make up a million possible stories in which, for reasons we needn't elaborate, the world would ultimately be better off if we hadn't gotten rid of smallpox in the way we did. Or, as some people have suggested, it could be a bone thrown to the human race to make them feel good, and all part of the plan.

The arguments for doing it better tend to be anthropocentric, which is in accord with the way the human authors of the Bible spun the story too. Sure, if we were in charge we could make a universe that's better for us, but if the universe was created by a god, he's the god of it all, the small things too. There's a special providence in the fall of a sparrow, so we're told, and the smallpox virus is a part of creation too.

Darat · 27th August 2022, 08:08 AM

Originally Posted by bruto

I would consider the eradication of smallpox and such things as pretty good evidence that we can do it better, just as its existence seems like pretty good evidence that the world we're in was not created by a god, but a motivated theist could come up with a host of other possibilities.

We cannot, after all, run a control on the history of the world. We can make up a million possible stories in which, for reasons we needn't elaborate, the world would ultimately be better off if we hadn't gotten rid of smallpox in the way we did. Or, as some people have suggested, it could be a bone thrown to the human race to make them feel good, and all part of the plan.

The arguments for doing it better tend to be anthropocentric, which is in accord with the way the human authors of the Bible spun the story too. Sure, if we were in charge we could make a universe that's better for us, but if the universe was created by a god, he's the god of it all, the small things too. There's a special providence in the fall of a sparrow, so we're told, and the smallpox virus is a part of creation too.

He is rather wasteful, all the universe created just so humans can exist. If you took the volume of where we can inhabit as a percentage of the volume of the universe, we're as close to zero as to make no difference!

Darat · 27th August 2022, 08:10 AM

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak

I did post about this earlier: perhaps you missed it.
There is some basis for the idea that God (Jehovah) wants to turn us into gods (not Jehovah, but still godly in some way):

I agree gnosticism and mysticism have often been entwinned with Christianity right from the beginning, but is only a fringe theology these days, remaining in some of the smaller churches.

Cosmic Yak · 27th August 2022, 08:15 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

I agree gnosticism and mysticism have often been entwinned with Christianity right from the beginning, but is only a fringe theology these days, remaining in some of the smaller churches.

Which I said, in my original post. There is, however, still Biblical justification for this belief, which was the thrust of your question.

The Great Zaganza · 27th August 2022, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

You can use a different word if you like.

You are making this up.
There is nothing in the Bible about having to do anything in heaven or hell after getting your judgement.
Life is a Test, not a training program for later challenges.

You should ask for your money back from whomever taught you Christianity.

Darat · 27th August 2022, 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak

Which I said, in my original post. There is, however, still Biblical justification for this belief, which was the thrust of your question.

Some Christian churches believe that is so but not the majority of Christian churches. And the thrust of my question was exactly what I asked i.e. where in the bible is psionl0's aprenticeship to be found?

bruto · 27th August 2022, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

He is rather wasteful, all the universe created just so humans can exist. If you took the volume of where we can inhabit as a percentage of the volume of the universe, we're as close to zero as to make no difference!

/Sure, but it's only the human-authored account that claims we're the purpose of the universe. I realize that this is the account that most theists, especially Christians, take for granted, but one could, in theory I think, reject the biased account of the hypocritical [your choice of zeroed-out expletive here] who wrote the Bible, and the underlying idea of there having been a creator god. You'd be more deist than theist, but in losing the idea of our being specially favored, you'd absolve God of having done such a poor job of serving us.

Venom · 27th August 2022, 01:47 PM

God in the Old Testament in particular could mess up. Cause he was essentially just a really powerful guy. He had limitations like the gods of neighboring cultures.

But to the OP, I'm glad that we don't have god-like powers with everything else about us being the same. I know people who would like there to be a hell, just the most purely evil idea imaginable. Any good that could be done I'm okay with it not happening, just so the other extreme can't be a reality.

GDon · 27th August 2022, 06:09 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

Some Christian churches believe that is so but not the majority of Christian churches. And the thrust of my question was exactly what I asked i.e. where in the bible is psionl0's aprenticeship to be found?

Isn't that the idea behind us becoming "sons of God"?

Rom 8:

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God...

Also possibly:

Phil 2:
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke...

The idea is that we become Sons of God through our actions and confessing that Jesus is Lord. Not sure if that is what psion10 meant by 'apprenticeship', but the NT does show the idea of what we are to do to become immortal creatures like Jesus.

psionl0 · 27th August 2022, 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

Care to point out the passages that mention we are serving an apprenticeship?

OK you got me. The word "apprenticeship" doesn't appear in the bible. If you want to conclude that there is no form of training whatsoever before a human moves towards towards the next life then I can't stop you being illogical.

But for those with half a brain, the bible says that God gave Adam work in the garden of Eden. It seems unlikely that he did so because he wanted free labour. Similarly, Jesus is known as a "teacher" in the NT. Again, he was not teaching nothing.

Make of that what you will. Maybe "apprenticeship" seems too strong a word but clearly some training/education is necessary in this life.

Cosmic Yak · 28th August 2022, 02:11 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

OK you got me. The word "apprenticeship" doesn't appear in the bible. If you want to conclude that there is no form of training whatsoever before a human moves towards towards the next life then I can't stop you being illogical.

But for those with half a brain, the bible says that God gave Adam work in the garden of Eden. It seems unlikely that he did so because he wanted free labour. Similarly, Jesus is known as a "teacher" in the NT. Again, he was not teaching nothing.

Make of that what you will. Maybe "apprenticeship" seems too strong a word but clearly some training/education is necessary in this life.

This is pure desperation.
Do, please, walk me through the steps between 'becoming a gardener' and 'attaining godhood'.

psionl0 · 28th August 2022, 03:28 AM

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak

Do, please, walk me through the steps between 'becoming a gardener' and 'attaining godhood'.

What makes you think that Adam was just pulling out weeds?

Cosmic Yak · 28th August 2022, 04:42 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

What makes you think that Adam was just pulling out weeds?

I didn't say he was just pulling out weeds: I said he was a gardener.
I said that, because that's what the Bible says:
Genesis 2:15: The Lord God then took the man and settled him in the garden of Eden, to cultivate and care for it.

Now, can you please detail the steps between becoming a gardener and attaining divinity?

Myriad · 28th August 2022, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak

Now, can you please detail the steps between becoming a gardener and attaining divinity?

Oh, that's an easy one.

Starting out as a gardener you begin by planting and nurturing, but you soon learn that most of the job is about cutting back and tearing out. Anything that grows in the wrong place or the wrong way or is past its due season you uproot and (with a very few exceptions you might choose to transplant) toss on the mulch pile to rot. To the individual plants you would seem to be cruelty and destruction personified, but you're doing it because you have a plan they couldn't understand. You can even justify the plan as being for the plants' collective long-term good, because if you stopped doing what you're doing, most of the species there would die out. So you weed and prune, and sometimes chop up or uproot everything in a section ("cultivate"), you protect your plants by fencing out (or trapping or poisoning) herbivores that would harm them in ways you don't want them harmed until it's time to consume and destroy them yourself, and you can tell from its beauty how much your love your garden and it loves you.

Tell me that's not excellent training to behave in the manner of the Old Testament God.

Lukraak_Sisser · 28th August 2022, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by Myriad

Oh, that's an easy one.

Starting out as a gardener you begin by planting and nurturing, but you soon learn that most of the job is about cutting back and tearing out. Anything that grows in the wrong place or the wrong way or is past its due season you uproot and (with a very few exceptions you might choose to transplant) toss on the mulch pile to rot. To the individual plants you would seem to be cruelty and destruction personified, but you're doing it because you have a plan they couldn't understand. You can even justify the plan as being for the plants' collective long-term good, because if you stopped doing what you're doing, most of the species there would die out. So you weed and prune, and sometimes chop up or uproot everything in a section ("cultivate"), you protect your plants by fencing out (or trapping or poisoning) herbivores that would harm them in ways you don't want them harmed until it's time to consume and destroy them yourself, and you can tell from its beauty how much your love your garden and it loves you.

Tell me that's not excellent training to behave in the manner of the Old Testament God.

Partly, but you forgot about planting parts of the garden the wrong way and then blaming the plants.

26th August 2022, 10:23 AM	#201
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 34,222	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Yeah but that's insane. Why did God make Adam and Eve capable of screwing up? I still think you're missing a big point. All your arguments might be good reasons for doubting the existence of God at all, but if you stipulate that he does exist, then "why" becomes irrelevant. God always has his reasons, and he doesn't have to tell them to you. If God made the universe, he did the best thing God could do. If you made a different univers, you'd be God, and being God you could always say it's better than anyone else's. And it would be, because you're God, and God is always right. God is perfectly circular, and circularly perfect.
	__________________ Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi) Last edited by bruto; 26th August 2022 at 10:28 AM.

26th August 2022, 02:59 PM	#203
bluesjnr Professional Nemesis for Hire Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Home. Posts: 10,957	Originally Posted by Darat I was thinking (yeah low hanging fruit) - god created the world with smallpox in it, we got rid of smallpox, so that's one up for us against god's work. Yeah, but he responded with, "Hey, take that Wuhan".
	__________________ "OTP? I don' need no steenkin' OTP!"

26th August 2022, 03:01 PM	#204
Ryan O'Dine OD’ing on Damitol Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Walk in an ever expanding Archimedean spiral and you'll find me eventually Posts: 2,104	Originally Posted by Darat The problem I see with psionl0 idea - i.e. suffering etc. part of the apprenticeship to become a god is that it seems to be introducing different power levels for gods. There is the big GOD - the eternal one, the big dude who formed the earth and heavens - and then these new gods that obviously can't be eternal, and equally obviously can't have formed the earth and heavens, can't be all powerful and so on. So why even call these newbies gods? I think it will cause unnecessary confusion for readers of psionl0's fiction. I would suggest trying a different label - perhaps "Scion" - a tad overused in fantasy but I've always liked it, it has a nice ring to it. In fact, it's clear psionl0's God is operating under a set of fairly stringent rules Himself (He can't just create Gods de novo, they require an intricate process. Free will can't exist without an inclination toward evil. He can't just do away with death -- that's another intricate process. There are actually a lot of rules confining psionl0's God). So the question is, who made those rules? That's the God we should all be worshiping.
	__________________ I collect people like you in little formaldehyde bottles in my basement. (Not a threat. A hobby.)

26th August 2022, 04:52 PM	#205
Blue Mountain Resident Skeptical Hobbit Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg Posts: 7,281	Originally Posted by Darat I was thinking (yeah low hanging fruit) - god created the world with smallpox in it, we got rid of smallpox, so that's one up for us against god's work. Originally Posted by JoeMorgue And that's sort the intellectual black hole that the god botheres have to pretend not to notice and think they are better than us for pretending to not notice. Any problem God solves is a problem he created. In computer programming we call this "debugging." Other enterprises where people build things, such as buildings, office plans, processes and procedures, cities and countries, constitutions, etc, often run into unexpected difficulties during and after the project. Some Christian sects and other religions also suggest outright vandalism when it comes to problems with creation, with the devil and his cohorts actively screwing things up. (My background: former evangelical Christian who now places the god of the Bible—Yahweh—on the same shelf as Dagon, Asherah, Baal; with numerous other shelves for various pantheons such as Greek, Roman, Norse, Celtic, etc. See Godchecker.com for a rather irreverent listing.)
	__________________ The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French)

26th August 2022, 06:08 PM	#207
GDon Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 1,439	Originally Posted by Blue Mountain Quote: Any problem God solves is a problem he created. In computer programming we call this "debugging." In the marketing for those computer programs we call them "features". And I guess that is the case for theologians as well.
GDon Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 1,439	Last edited by GDon; 26th August 2022 at 06:59 PM.

26th August 2022, 11:19 AM	#202
jrhowell Muse Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Tampa Bay, Florida Posts: 795	Originally Posted by bruto I still think you're missing a big point. All your arguments might be good reasons for doubting the existence of God at all, but if you stipulate that he does exist, then "why" becomes irrelevant. God always has his reasons, and he doesn't have to tell them to you. For me the point of a thread discussing whether we could do better than God is to highlight all of the ways in which God's supposed actions are illogical and unreasonable in the hope that it will help to open the eyes of some believers. (Also, the apologetics that are tried in defense of God's existence are good for a laugh.)

26th August 2022, 05:48 PM	#206
jrhowell Muse Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Tampa Bay, Florida Posts: 795	Originally Posted by Ryan O'Dine So the question is, who made those rules? That's the God we should all be worshiping. That would be us humans! (It looks like psionl0 got his wish. We are gods!)

26th August 2022, 06:56 PM	#208
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 34,222	Originally Posted by jrhowell For me the point of a thread discussing whether we could do better than God is to highlight all of the ways in which God's supposed actions are illogical and unreasonable in the hope that it will help to open the eyes of some believers. (Also, the apologetics that are tried in defense of God's existence are good for a laugh.) Sure, the reasons for doubting that God's supposed actions are logical or reasonable are serious enough if you're susceptible to logic and reason, but if like many theists you start from the premise that God is a necessary starting point, the race is over before the starting shot.
	__________________ Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi)

26th August 2022, 07:01 PM	#209
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,922	Originally Posted by Ryan O'Dine In fact, it's clear psionl0's God is operating under a set of fairly stringent rules Himself (He can't just create Gods de novo, they require an intricate process. Free will can't exist without an inclination toward evil. He can't just do away with death -- that's another intricate process. There are actually a lot of rules confining psionl0's God). So the question is, who made those rules? That's the God we should all be worshiping. I am only commenting on what is written in the bible. If there are sections that contradict my interpretation then you are free to point them out. (Of course it is easier to just say "psionl0's God" or "p-god" and avoid having to make any intellectual contribution whatsoever). The only "rule" I see here is that God can't defy logic (otherwise we would have that heavy rock). God can make some choices uncomfortable but he can't render choices impossible to consider otherwise he has only created a bot.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

27th August 2022, 03:02 AM	#210
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 108,048	Originally Posted by jrhowell Yes, except that some believe that diseases only exist because of Adam and Eve's original sin. So smallpox is our fault and not God's. It's not clear to me whether this is supposed to be a punishment, God actually cursing humans along with all other creatures with disease, or is in some metaphysical way a consequence of having sinned and not a direct action by God. If it's actually a punishment then we are sinning even more by avoiding disease and doctors will be destined for the ninth circle of hell. But it doesn't matter whether it was Eve's fault or not. God created a world with smallpox in it, we got rid of it, the world is now a better place than the world god designed QED we can and have done better than god!
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27th August 2022, 03:04 AM	#211
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 108,048	Originally Posted by psionl0 I am only commenting on what is written in the bible. If there are sections that contradict my interpretation then you are free to point them out. (Of course it is easier to just say "psionl0's God" or "p-god" and avoid having to make any intellectual contribution whatsoever). The only "rule" I see here is that God can't defy logic (otherwise we would have that heavy rock). God can make some choices uncomfortable but he can't render choices impossible to consider otherwise he has only created a bot. Care to point out the passages that mention we are serving an apprenticeship?
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27th August 2022, 03:36 AM	#212
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,922	Originally Posted by Darat Care to point out the passages that mention we are serving an apprenticeship? You can use a different word if you like.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

27th August 2022, 03:49 AM	#213
Steve Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 12,178	Originally Posted by Darat Care to point out the passages that mention we are serving an apprenticeship? Originally Posted by psionl0 You can use a different word if you like. What different word would you suggest? And then point out the passages with that different word in them.
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

27th August 2022, 04:26 AM	#214
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 108,048	Originally Posted by psionl0 You can use a different word if you like. It's your fiction, I know I made a suggestion for what to call your "lesser" gods but you are the author so in the end it is your choice of word. Now again please point out where in the Bible it talks about us undertaking an apprenticeship to become a lesser-god (Scion would be much cooler)?
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27th August 2022, 04:52 AM	#215
GDon Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 1,439	Originally Posted by Darat God created a world with smallpox in it, we got rid of it, the world is now a better place than the world god designed QED we can and have done better than god! One thought is that God created things like smallpox so that people had an opportunity to work against a common foe rather than against each other. Not claiming this for myself! I like what the Tao Te Ching has to say about things like that: “The best leaders value their words, and use them sparingly. When they have accomplished their task, the people say, “Amazing! We did it all by ourselves!” Also: “The best leaders are those their people hardly know exist. The next best is a leader who is loved and praised. Next comes the one who is feared. The worst one is the leader that is despised …
GDon Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 1,439

27th August 2022, 06:32 AM	#216
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 108,048	Originally Posted by GDon One thought is that God created things like smallpox so that people had an opportunity to work against a common foe rather than against each other. Not claiming this for myself! ...snip.. …[/color] Whichever way you slice it the world is better without smallpox so we have already done a better job than god did. Now of course smallpox may have been part of psionl0's god's apprenticeship scheme and is it just me that now sees the creation of Adam as portrayed in the Sistine Chapel as god pointing at Adam and saying "You're fired!"
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27th August 2022, 06:37 AM	#217
Ryan O'Dine OD’ing on Damitol Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Walk in an ever expanding Archimedean spiral and you'll find me eventually Posts: 2,104	Originally Posted by psionl0 I am only commenting on what is written in the bible. If there are sections that contradict my interpretation then you are free to point them out. (Of course it is easier to just say "psionl0's God" or "p-god" and avoid having to make any intellectual contribution whatsoever). The only "rule" I see here is that God can't defy logic (otherwise we would have that heavy rock). God can make some choices uncomfortable but he can't render choices impossible to consider otherwise he has only created a bot. Right, so who invented the rules of logic and made God follow them? I'm going to give Her a name: SuperGoddess. SuperGoddess is better than (your interpretation of) the biblical God because She set the rules that God must follow. Furthermore, unlike the biblical God, not only does She not require worship from us, She doesn't even need to be known by us. As GDon pointed out: “The best leaders are those their people hardly know exist."
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27th August 2022, 06:57 AM	#218
Ryan O'Dine OD’ing on Damitol Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Walk in an ever expanding Archimedean spiral and you'll find me eventually Posts: 2,104	Originally Posted by psionl0 I am only commenting on what is written in the bible. If there are sections that contradict my interpretation then you are free to point them out. (Of course it is easier to just say "psionl0's God" or "p-god" and avoid having to make any intellectual contribution whatsoever). The only "rule" I see here is that God can't defy logic (otherwise we would have that heavy rock). God can make some choices uncomfortable but he can't render choices impossible to consider otherwise he has only created a bot. As for the first part, the Bible is like an abstract painting -- there's no right or wrong, you get out what you put in. In fact, I'm willing to bet your own interpretation has evolved over time, that you didn't just pick up the Bible the day you learned to read and come up with your current conclusions. Chances are your present interpretation will change sometime in the future. While you evolve as a person, so will your interpretations evolve. For my own part I prefer interpretations that result in people behaving nicer, but those seem increasingly fewer and father between.
	__________________ I collect people like you in little formaldehyde bottles in my basement. (Not a threat. A hobby.)

27th August 2022, 07:20 AM	#219
Cosmic Yak Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand. Posts: 6,367	Originally Posted by Darat It's your fiction, I know I made a suggestion for what to call your "lesser" gods but you are the author so in the end it is your choice of word. Now again please point out where in the Bible it talks about us undertaking an apprenticeship to become a lesser-god (Scion would be much cooler)? I did post about this earlier: perhaps you missed it. There is some basis for the idea that God (Jehovah) wants to turn us into gods (not Jehovah, but still godly in some way): Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak 'Not common' is a massive understatement. However, you do have a point: it's just that I don't think you're expressing it very well. The wiki article on divinisation puts it much better.
	__________________ 'Of course it can be OK to mistreat people.'- shuttlt Cosmic Yak on this forum.

27th August 2022, 08:03 AM	#220
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 34,222	Originally Posted by Darat Whichever way you slice it the world is better without smallpox so we have already done a better job than god did. Now of course smallpox may have been part of psionl0's god's apprenticeship scheme and is it just me that now sees the creation of Adam as portrayed in the Sistine Chapel as god pointing at Adam and saying "You're fired!" http://www.internationalskeptics.com...a24a92bd0d.png I would consider the eradication of smallpox and such things as pretty good evidence that we can do it better, just as its existence seems like pretty good evidence that the world we're in was not created by a god, but a motivated theist could come up with a host of other possibilities. We cannot, after all, run a control on the history of the world. We can make up a million possible stories in which, for reasons we needn't elaborate, the world would ultimately be better off if we hadn't gotten rid of smallpox in the way we did. Or, as some people have suggested, it could be a bone thrown to the human race to make them feel good, and all part of the plan. The arguments for doing it better tend to be anthropocentric, which is in accord with the way the human authors of the Bible spun the story too. Sure, if we were in charge we could make a universe that's better for us, but if the universe was created by a god, he's the god of it all, the small things too. There's a special providence in the fall of a sparrow, so we're told, and the smallpox virus is a part of creation too.
	__________________ Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi)

27th August 2022, 08:08 AM	#221
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 108,048	Originally Posted by bruto I would consider the eradication of smallpox and such things as pretty good evidence that we can do it better, just as its existence seems like pretty good evidence that the world we're in was not created by a god, but a motivated theist could come up with a host of other possibilities. We cannot, after all, run a control on the history of the world. We can make up a million possible stories in which, for reasons we needn't elaborate, the world would ultimately be better off if we hadn't gotten rid of smallpox in the way we did. Or, as some people have suggested, it could be a bone thrown to the human race to make them feel good, and all part of the plan. The arguments for doing it better tend to be anthropocentric, which is in accord with the way the human authors of the Bible spun the story too. Sure, if we were in charge we could make a universe that's better for us, but if the universe was created by a god, he's the god of it all, the small things too. There's a special providence in the fall of a sparrow, so we're told, and the smallpox virus is a part of creation too. He is rather wasteful, all the universe created just so humans can exist. If you took the volume of where we can inhabit as a percentage of the volume of the universe, we're as close to zero as to make no difference!
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27th August 2022, 08:10 AM	#222
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 108,048	Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak I did post about this earlier: perhaps you missed it. There is some basis for the idea that God (Jehovah) wants to turn us into gods (not Jehovah, but still godly in some way): I agree gnosticism and mysticism have often been entwinned with Christianity right from the beginning, but is only a fringe theology these days, remaining in some of the smaller churches.
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27th August 2022, 08:15 AM	#223
Cosmic Yak Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand. Posts: 6,367	Originally Posted by Darat I agree gnosticism and mysticism have often been entwinned with Christianity right from the beginning, but is only a fringe theology these days, remaining in some of the smaller churches. Which I said, in my original post. There is, however, still Biblical justification for this belief, which was the thrust of your question.
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27th August 2022, 09:27 AM	#224
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 19,538	Originally Posted by psionl0 You can use a different word if you like. You are making this up. There is nothing in the Bible about having to do anything in heaven or hell after getting your judgement. Life is a Test, not a training program for later challenges. You should ask for your money back from whomever taught you Christianity.
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27th August 2022, 09:35 AM	#225
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 108,048	Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak Which I said, in my original post. There is, however, still Biblical justification for this belief, which was the thrust of your question. Some Christian churches believe that is so but not the majority of Christian churches. And the thrust of my question was exactly what I asked i.e. where in the bible is psionl0's aprenticeship to be found?
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27th August 2022, 10:41 AM	#226
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 34,222	Originally Posted by Darat He is rather wasteful, all the universe created just so humans can exist. If you took the volume of where we can inhabit as a percentage of the volume of the universe, we're as close to zero as to make no difference! /Sure, but it's only the human-authored account that claims we're the purpose of the universe. I realize that this is the account that most theists, especially Christians, take for granted, but one could, in theory I think, reject the biased account of the hypocritical [your choice of zeroed-out expletive here] who wrote the Bible, and the underlying idea of there having been a creator god. You'd be more deist than theist, but in losing the idea of our being specially favored, you'd absolve God of having done such a poor job of serving us.
	__________________ Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi)

27th August 2022, 01:47 PM	#227
Venom Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: United States Posts: 6,086	God in the Old Testament in particular could mess up. Cause he was essentially just a really powerful guy. He had limitations like the gods of neighboring cultures. But to the OP, I'm glad that we don't have god-like powers with everything else about us being the same. I know people who would like there to be a hell, just the most purely evil idea imaginable. Any good that could be done I'm okay with it not happening, just so the other extreme can't be a reality.

27th August 2022, 06:09 PM	#228
GDon Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 1,439	Originally Posted by Darat Some Christian churches believe that is so but not the majority of Christian churches. And the thrust of my question was exactly what I asked i.e. where in the bible is psionl0's aprenticeship to be found? Isn't that the idea behind us becoming "sons of God"? Rom 8: 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God... Also possibly: Phil 2: 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. 14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings: 15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke... The idea is that we become Sons of God through our actions and confessing that Jesus is Lord. Not sure if that is what psion10 meant by 'apprenticeship', but the NT does show the idea of what we are to do to become immortal creatures like Jesus.
GDon Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 1,439	Last edited by GDon; 27th August 2022 at 06:14 PM.

27th August 2022, 07:05 PM	#229
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,922	Originally Posted by Darat Care to point out the passages that mention we are serving an apprenticeship? OK you got me. The word "apprenticeship" doesn't appear in the bible. If you want to conclude that there is no form of training whatsoever before a human moves towards towards the next life then I can't stop you being illogical. But for those with half a brain, the bible says that God gave Adam work in the garden of Eden. It seems unlikely that he did so because he wanted free labour. Similarly, Jesus is known as a "teacher" in the NT. Again, he was not teaching nothing. Make of that what you will. Maybe "apprenticeship" seems too strong a word but clearly some training/education is necessary in this life.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

28th August 2022, 02:11 AM	#230
Cosmic Yak Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand. Posts: 6,367	Originally Posted by psionl0 OK you got me. The word "apprenticeship" doesn't appear in the bible. If you want to conclude that there is no form of training whatsoever before a human moves towards towards the next life then I can't stop you being illogical. But for those with half a brain, the bible says that God gave Adam work in the garden of Eden. It seems unlikely that he did so because he wanted free labour. Similarly, Jesus is known as a "teacher" in the NT. Again, he was not teaching nothing. Make of that what you will. Maybe "apprenticeship" seems too strong a word but clearly some training/education is necessary in this life. This is pure desperation. Do, please, walk me through the steps between 'becoming a gardener' and 'attaining godhood'.
	__________________ 'Of course it can be OK to mistreat people.'- shuttlt Cosmic Yak on this forum.

28th August 2022, 03:28 AM	#231
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,922	Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak Do, please, walk me through the steps between 'becoming a gardener' and 'attaining godhood'. What makes you think that Adam was just pulling out weeds?
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

28th August 2022, 04:42 AM	#232
Cosmic Yak Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand. Posts: 6,367	Originally Posted by psionl0 What makes you think that Adam was just pulling out weeds? I didn't say he was just pulling out weeds: I said he was a gardener. I said that, because that's what the Bible says: Genesis 2:15: The Lord God then took the man and settled him in the garden of Eden, to cultivate and care for it. Now, can you please detail the steps between becoming a gardener and attaining divinity?
	__________________ 'Of course it can be OK to mistreat people.'- shuttlt Cosmic Yak on this forum.

28th August 2022, 10:21 AM	#233
Myriad The Clarity Is Devastating Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Betwixt Posts: 19,969	Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak Now, can you please detail the steps between becoming a gardener and attaining divinity? Oh, that's an easy one. Starting out as a gardener you begin by planting and nurturing, but you soon learn that most of the job is about cutting back and tearing out. Anything that grows in the wrong place or the wrong way or is past its due season you uproot and (with a very few exceptions you might choose to transplant) toss on the mulch pile to rot. To the individual plants you would seem to be cruelty and destruction personified, but you're doing it because you have a plan they couldn't understand. You can even justify the plan as being for the plants' collective long-term good, because if you stopped doing what you're doing, most of the species there would die out. So you weed and prune, and sometimes chop up or uproot everything in a section ("cultivate"), you protect your plants by fencing out (or trapping or poisoning) herbivores that would harm them in ways you don't want them harmed until it's time to consume and destroy them yourself, and you can tell from its beauty how much your love your garden and it loves you. Tell me that's not excellent training to behave in the manner of the Old Testament God.
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28th August 2022, 11:33 AM	#234
Lukraak_Sisser Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 4,875	Originally Posted by Myriad Oh, that's an easy one. Starting out as a gardener you begin by planting and nurturing, but you soon learn that most of the job is about cutting back and tearing out. Anything that grows in the wrong place or the wrong way or is past its due season you uproot and (with a very few exceptions you might choose to transplant) toss on the mulch pile to rot. To the individual plants you would seem to be cruelty and destruction personified, but you're doing it because you have a plan they couldn't understand. You can even justify the plan as being for the plants' collective long-term good, because if you stopped doing what you're doing, most of the species there would die out. So you weed and prune, and sometimes chop up or uproot everything in a section ("cultivate"), you protect your plants by fencing out (or trapping or poisoning) herbivores that would harm them in ways you don't want them harmed until it's time to consume and destroy them yourself, and you can tell from its beauty how much your love your garden and it loves you. Tell me that's not excellent training to behave in the manner of the Old Testament God. Partly, but you forgot about planting parts of the garden the wrong way and then blaming the plants.