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Old 14th May 2019, 09:45 AM   #121
3point14
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Stereotypes aside, there doesn't seem to be any good information about how it happened. Some say it was to mislead the Soviets, or fit into some negotiation with them. Others say it was to attract the top pilots. Still others suggest it was an accident - just another meaningless anomaly in the application of the tri-service numbering system.
The only thing I've read is that they wanted the best pilots and USAF top guns got all lairy at being downgraded to only flying an 'A' or 'B', because the best all flew 'F's.

Probably not true, but a nice little tale.
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Old 14th May 2019, 10:38 AM   #122
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Caproni Ca.60

100 passenger flying boat. It made one and a half successful flights.
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File Type: jpg caproni-ca60-transaereo-01.jpg (118.0 KB, 7 views)
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Old 14th May 2019, 10:43 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by BillC View Post
The Edgley Optica was a weird one. It came to prominence for two reasons: being flown by Mark Hamill in the 1989 movie Slipstream, and for a crash which killed the police pilot and his passenger.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgley_Optica
um...

Quote:
A total of 22 Opticas have been manufactured, and construction of a 23rd begun but not completed. Ten aircraft were destroyed in an arson attack at the factory.[6]
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Old 14th May 2019, 10:47 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Victor had a constant critical Mach number across the entire wing and consequently a high cruise speed, the nose and tail, were also designed to the 'area rule' for the same critical mach number so the shape of the Victor had a constant critical mach number all over.
A similar looking aircraft was the Buckaneer, it had similar crescent wings for the same reason.
I like the Buccaneer. I remember being in the Cairngorms and one flew low over me and it was surprisingly *quiet*.

The TSR-2 and Lightning both look as though Dan Dare should have piloted them.
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Old 14th May 2019, 10:47 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by Pope130 View Post
100 passenger flying boat. It made one and a half successful flights.
Holy moly!
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Old 14th May 2019, 11:08 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I like the Buccaneer. I remember being in the Cairngorms and one flew low over me and it was surprisingly *quiet*.

The TSR-2 and Lightning both look as though Dan Dare should have piloted them.
Buckaneer was desigtned to be flown between 50 and 100 ft off the sea at 500 knots.
It used what is known as 'Boundry Layer Control' this bled high pressure air from the engines, which was blown through full-span slits along the wing's trailing and leading edges giving almost 50% more lift. This allowed it to have low aspect, short wings suited for high speed cruising but gave a low enough stall speed to allow carrier landings.

It had a 'rotating' weapons bay that allowed it's underside to remain 'clean'
It was designed to carry a 'Red Beard' free-fall nuclear bomb, as well as conventional munitions including anti ship missiles.
It's method of attack with the nuclear weapon was to come in low then pull up as it released 'tossing' the bomb in an arcing trajectory that would allow the aircraft to escape before detonation.

They were operated by both the RN and the RAF taking part in the first Gulf War.
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Old 14th May 2019, 11:41 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
A ship-helo team can operate in more conditions than a seaplane. And while the helo's own endurance is limited, the destroyer it's flying from can stay on station for weeks at a time - in any weather. A seaplane that has to fly thousands of miles away to land is not going to be much use in hunting the submarine it left behind. When the USN does need that kind of trade-off, they just operate land-based ASW planes like the P-3 and the P-8.
Thanks! That helps.

Do you known the weather limits for a helicopter to launch and land on a destroyer? Sea state and winds? Although I imagine a destroyer can stay on station through a wide range of weather conditions (at the cost of quite a ride for the crew) I wonder about the limits of the helo - part of the team. I've seen video of helicopters attempting to land in chop and high winds and it would appear to be very dangerous at some point. Is that the point that the land-based ASWs are deployed (when their range and endurance are sufficient)?
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Old 14th May 2019, 11:48 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Pope130 View Post
100 passenger flying boat. It made one and a half successful flights.
Reminds me of a friend who witnessed an early V-22 test where the aircraft crashed w/o injury to the pilot, etc. He told me it was a success...why? "It didn't land on me"
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Old 14th May 2019, 11:49 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Thanks! That helps.



Do you known the weather limits for a helicopter to launch and land on a destroyer? Sea state and winds? Although I imagine a destroyer can stay on station through a wide range of weather conditions (at the cost of quite a ride for the crew) I wonder about the limits of the helo - part of the team. I've seen video of helicopters attempting to land in chop and high winds and it would appear to be very dangerous at some point. Is that the point that the land-based ASWs are deployed (when their range and endurance are sufficient)?
Or the destroyer continues the mission until the weather clears enough to send out the helo again.
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Old 14th May 2019, 11:51 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
The Avro Arrow

Just a shade under MACH 2 in level flight and one of the first fly by wire systems before it was cancelled in 1958. Probably one of the first modern looking planes, most of it's supersonic contemporaries were basically missiles with stubby wings.

https://vmcdn.ca/f/files/sudbury/ima...ized.jpg;w=630

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ow_rollout.jpg
I'm Canadian. We've heard of the Arrow and we still hate everyone over this issue.
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Old 14th May 2019, 12:02 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Thanks! That helps.

Do you known the weather limits for a helicopter to launch and land on a destroyer? Sea state and winds? Although I imagine a destroyer can stay on station through a wide range of weather conditions (at the cost of quite a ride for the crew) I wonder about the limits of the helo - part of the team. I've seen video of helicopters attempting to land in chop and high winds and it would appear to be very dangerous at some point. Is that the point that the land-based ASWs are deployed (when their range and endurance are sufficient)?
Here you go deck landings in rough sea.

They have a 'harpoon' on the bottom of the helo that engages with a grid on the deck to hold them down after landing

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Or. like the Canadians they use a 'Haul Down' system

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Old 14th May 2019, 12:24 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Here you go deck landings in rough sea.

They have a 'harpoon' on the bottom of the helo that engages with a grid on the deck to hold them down after landing

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Or. like the Canadians they use a 'Haul Down' system

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Thanks for those. There can't be many more difficult landings anywere in the sphere of aviation than those. They look, quite frankly, terrifying.

It took me a while, on the second one, to realise it was the ship that was rolling so heavily. I only realised it when I worked out to watch the horizon.
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Old 14th May 2019, 12:34 PM   #133
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remember they are peace time operations. In a war with a sub to kill they would have to fly.
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Old 14th May 2019, 12:45 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I like the Buccaneer. I remember being in the Cairngorms and one flew low over me and it was surprisingly *quiet*.

The TSR-2 and Lightning both look as though Dan Dare should have piloted them.
The English Electric Lightning was one hell of a plane. Brian Cox went up in one in one of his series. I think a few remained in flying condition in South Africa until recently.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwgfU228clE
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Old 14th May 2019, 01:48 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
The English Electric Lightning was one hell of a plane. Brian Cox went up in one in one of his series. I think a few remained in flying condition in South Africa until recently.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwgfU228clE
Allegedly, they were able to intercept U2s

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.ph...he_Lightn.html

Although the only reference I have found to this is in various forums.
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Old 15th May 2019, 01:56 AM   #136
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It's not often that I cannot immediately recognise a plane that flies around here, there isn't much variety. Yesterday I was at the cricket in Bristol and on the horizon I saw a medium/large sized four turboprop plane with a T-tail. Unfortunately by the time I got my binoculars, it had disappeared over the horizon....
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Old 15th May 2019, 02:24 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Here you go deck landings in rough sea.

They have a 'harpoon' on the bottom of the helo that engages with a grid on the deck to hold them down after landing

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Or. like the Canadians they use a 'Haul Down' system

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On both of those videos I couldn't see where they store the barrows which the pilots put their cojones in to allow then to walk inside.
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Old 15th May 2019, 02:31 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
The English Electric Lightning was one hell of a plane. Brian Cox went up in one in one of his series. I think a few remained in flying condition in South Africa until recently.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwgfU228clE
A beautiful plane and after the Vulcan and Avro Lancaster my third favourite.

Could it intercept a U-2? <Taps side of nose>
Quote:
In September 1962, Fighter Command organised interception trials on Lockheed U-2As at heights of around 60,000–65,000 ft (18,000–20,000 m), which were temporarily based at RAF Upper Heyford to monitor Soviet nuclear tests. Climb techniques and flight profiles were developed to put the Lightning into a suitable attack position. To avoid risking the U-2, the Lightning was not permitted any closer than 5,000 ft (1,500 m) and could not fly in front of the U-2. For the intercepts, four Lightning F1As conducted 18 solo sorties. The sorties proved that, under GCI, successful intercepts could be made at up to 65,000 ft (20,000 m). Due to sensitivity, details of these flights were deliberately avoided in the pilot log books.
From here
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Old 15th May 2019, 02:32 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
It's not often that I cannot immediately recognise a plane that flies around here, there isn't much variety. Yesterday I was at the cricket in Bristol and on the horizon I saw a medium/large sized four turboprop plane with a T-tail. Unfortunately by the time I got my binoculars, it had disappeared over the horizon....
You need to get the Flightradar24 app on your phone.
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Old 15th May 2019, 05:10 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by Pope130 View Post
100 passenger flying boat. It made one and a half successful flights.
That's one more than I would have expected
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Old 15th May 2019, 05:15 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
You need to get the Flightradar24 app on your phone.
I have it, I forgot about it
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Old 15th May 2019, 05:47 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
You need to get the Flightradar24 app on your phone.
Sometimes I check Flightradar24 after I hear (but don't see) something flying over that sounds interesting or unusual, but there's nothing showing nearby. Not civilian, I guess.
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Old 15th May 2019, 05:57 AM   #143
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I watched two contrails fly over that weren't showing on the app, they were obviously 'in formation'. They met a third larger trail that had been circling and was showing up as an RAF tanker.
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Old 15th May 2019, 07:49 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
A beautiful plane and after the Vulcan and Avro Lancaster my third favourite.
Wow! Those are my two favourites! Made a model of a Lanc when I was a kid. Would occasionally see a Vulcan at Manchester Airport (Ringway, as it was then). I think I recall seeing one at the Woodford air show.

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Old 15th May 2019, 08:07 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'm Canadian. We've heard of the Arrow and we still hate everyone over this issue.
Yep.

When I was back in Canada a few weeks ago I went to an museum that has a lot of old military aircraft. They had an Arrow display. Obviously they didn't have an Arrow (I think they've all been destroyed?) but they did have an engine from one. A guy who worked there came over and started telling us about it, and he seemed pretty bitter about the whole affair.

The best part was when he thought that Canada should basically take credit for the Apollo program.

ETA The place (The Canadian Wartime Heritage Museum in Hamilton) is pretty cool. They regularly fly a lot of their aircraft, including a Lancaster that flew missions over Germany in WWII, and it's possible to book a seat on those flights. They also had a plane that dropped paratroopers on D-Day, and again they regularly fly it and take passengers.
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Old 15th May 2019, 10:52 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
It's not often that I cannot immediately recognise a plane that flies around here, there isn't much variety. Yesterday I was at the cricket in Bristol and on the horizon I saw a medium/large sized four turboprop plane with a T-tail. Unfortunately by the time I got my binoculars, it had disappeared over the horizon....
DHC-7? If it was red, it could be the one operated by the British Antarctic Survey.
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Old 15th May 2019, 11:46 AM   #147
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Dash-7s are quite common, I think. Or they were.


Airbus A400-M?
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Old 15th May 2019, 12:47 PM   #148
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The DO-31 was a cracker. Two Pegasus engines with a further 8 vertical mounter engines in the wingtip modules. Very clever beastie in a day of analogue flight control systems. I've seen the one at Friedrichshafen. There's another in Munich I believe.
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Old 15th May 2019, 02:29 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
ETA The place (The Canadian Wartime Heritage Museum in Hamilton) is pretty cool. They regularly fly a lot of their aircraft, including a Lancaster that flew missions over Germany in WWII, and it's possible to book a seat on those flights. They also had a plane that dropped paratroopers on D-Day, and again they regularly fly it and take passengers.
Here: www.warplane.com

The Lancaster is only one of two still flying; the other's in the UK and doesn't take passengers. The other might be their C-47. They've also got a flying B-25 and a bunch of Harvards (the Canadian equivalent of the Texan).

Used to be my favourite place for air shows until they discontinued them (too low profit, a single rainy day on the two-day air show weekend could apparently put them in the red). Second best is the Brantford show in August (http://www.communitycharityairshow.com/) but the parking is horrible - when we went in 2017 it took two hours to get out of the parking lot after the show.
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Old 15th May 2019, 02:31 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Dash-7s are quite common, I think. Or they were.


Airbus A400-M?
Oh, hadn't thought of that. Probably more likely.
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Old 15th May 2019, 04:34 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
The wings look like there's a person holding out a cape on his arms.
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Old 15th May 2019, 11:08 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Dash-7s are quite common, I think. Or they were.


Airbus A400-M?
Makes sense, we were in Bristol after all and maybe they were doing a factory flypast.
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Old 16th May 2019, 04:07 PM   #153
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De Havilland Venom

Developed from the Vampire.

here we go with the navalised version the 'Sea venom' in Australian service.

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Old 16th May 2019, 07:40 PM   #154
Norman Alexander
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A specific "airplane", the Zeppelin LZ 104. Specially adapted for its one-way mission, in 1917 it flew the longest unassisted military mission in history - 4,200 miles. Took only 95 hours non-stop.
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Old 17th May 2019, 05:55 AM   #155
wobs
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A prototype 36 motor, 5 seat air taxi:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48297440
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Old 17th May 2019, 07:08 AM   #156
jimbob
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Originally Posted by wobs View Post
A prototype 36 motor, 5 seat air taxi:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48297440
At least they didn't call the ducted fans, "jets"
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link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 17th May 2019, 07:20 AM   #157
Trebuchet
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
At least they didn't call the ducted fans, "jets"
And I didn't notice the word "drone", which I've come to despise, in the article.
One hour flight on a charge. Then what? Rapid battery pack swaps, I'd hope.
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Old 17th May 2019, 07:45 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by wobs View Post
A prototype 36 motor, 5 seat air taxi:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48297440
The pictures in that article don't really show the unusual design particularly well. It's an odd looking beast (Very KSP):

https://cdn.drivemag.net/media/defau...ult-large.jpeg

http://tech.eu/wp-content/uploads/20...lium-Jet-2.jpg




This: http://www.xtiaircraft.com/trifan-600/, which I have mentioned before around here, seems to be aimed at the same market and, to my eyes, is much better looking.
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Old 17th May 2019, 08:14 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by wobs View Post
A prototype 36 motor, 5 seat air taxi:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48297440
I'll call it a plane when I actually see it fly. Those arrays of PC case fans seem terribly inefficient.
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