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Old 24th January 2016, 01:59 PM   #1
JeanTate
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Electric Universe: has there ever been a scientific research program?

It used to be, some years' ago, that Electric Universe (EU) proponents were many, and highly vocal. Look at the number of EU-related threads in the archives of ISF, for example.

These days, those proponents have retreated to Eejet-Tube vids, and unmoderated fora; even their fave forum today has little traffic.

One thing has always baffled me about the EU, and its fanatics: an apparent, complete, lack of any research proposals.

For example, all over the internet you'll find people asking EU fans things like "if you had total control over all the world's leading astronomical facilities - telescopes etc - where would you point them?" or "given unlimited funds, what experiments, here on Earth, would you conduct?" Yet, aside from SAFIRE and perhaps Lerner's Focus Fusion, there are no answers!

At least, none that I could find.

Which I find baffling.

I mean, isn't there even one EU adherent who is curious enough to think about doing an experiment, or making an observation, to test EU ideas? It seems to me that it'd take just one such to vastly improve the EU's standing (assuming the results of such experiments or observations were consistent with "EU theory", whatever that is).

Hence this thread: do any of you, dear readers, know of any published research projects/programs/experiments/observations, proposed by EU supporters (other than SAFIRE and Lerner's Focus Fusion)?
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Old 24th January 2016, 02:05 PM   #2
Jules Galen
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Originally Posted by JeanTate View Post
One thing has always baffled me about the EU, and its fanatics: an apparent, complete, lack of any research proposals.

Or unique Predictions backed by Test Results - they certainly haven't produced that!
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Old 24th January 2016, 07:11 PM   #3
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To be honest, Jean, I don't think there is anyone there sufficiently qualified to do research of the nature required. As you say, most of their 'proposals' come from boobtube vids and comment streams of pop-sci websites, and science blogs.
They seem to expect the 'mainstream' scientists they so distrust, to actually do all the work for them. Hence all the uneducated comments such as: "whine....whine...whine....they haven't considered x, y,or z before they decided it was a."
I've lost count of the amount of times I've told them that the author's email address is on the paper; "contact him, ask him why they didn't consider x, y or z. Publish the reply here."
Never heard of it happening, other than one of the more prolific posters at phys.org telling me he'd contacted someone re the electric comet nonsense, and the guy had told him (somewhat dismiissively) what we've been telling them for years!
So I think they are now reduced to criticising the mainstream, and trying to win over more scientifically illiiterate recruits, as if science is a bit like the top 40. They've got some catching up to do to reach the level of belief for things like astrology and homeopathy. And look how seriously science takes those.
The SAFIRE thing is pure silliness, and is bass ackwards; find some evidence that sufficient electrons/ protons whatever, are actually observed heading for the Sun, and then we can look at the effects they might have. As it stands, any decent peer reviewer is going to say "you plugged your sphere into the mains. What is the solar system equivalent? Where is it? All you've done is show how a metallic sphere behaves when you shoot a zillion volts through it." It might convince them, but it sure as hell isn't going to make any impression on scientists. Find the electrons, protons, Z-pinches, Birkeland currents, all of which will be easily seen, and then they might have a reason to do the experiment.
As for Thornhill's latest ramblings on dipole gravity.....oh dear.
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Old 24th January 2016, 08:18 PM   #4
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There no serious research into magic pink unicorns either, and for similar reasons.
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Old 24th January 2016, 08:55 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
There no serious research into magic pink unicorns either, and for similar reasons.
I do believe I have asked this possibly rhetorical question before but, "How do you explain the lack of evidence of the Stark_effectWP in the presence of the monstrously huge electric fields that rule the Solar System? Galaxy? Universe?"
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Old 24th January 2016, 09:37 PM   #6
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My sense is: EU fans are genuinely "crackpots" rather than "physicists with an unpopular idea." They genuinely think they're doing fine, and they genuinely look at their annotated NASA videos and think they see a slam dunk. "Obviously the truth is now clear! If the opposing cabal hasn't accepted it yet---if that two-hour Wal Thornhill video didn't convince everyone, what good would more evidence do?"
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Old 24th January 2016, 10:28 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
Or unique Predictions backed by Test Results - they certainly haven't produced that!
I'm thinking we should introduce Maartenn 100 to them - or vice versa!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 25th January 2016, 01:14 AM   #8
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I also think that they are scared shootless of actually trying to look at data.
As the EC is now the most active, all they want is to see the pictures and the data released (which will happen, some of it is on PSA/PDS), but they also want the interpretation from mainstream of the data, so they can critisize the analysis. But never ever do they take the high quality older data (from e.g. Giotto) and actually work with them. There are some on thunderdolts whom I think would be able to do something with real data. But working with data would possibly show that they are wrong, and that cannot be, of course.

So therefore, mainly handwaving and half-baked ideas, and the ever useful "plasma is so complex that we cannot understand it with current theories."

ETA: and actually, because the interplanetary magnetic field is in a Parker spiral, the heliospheric current sheet actually has a small radial component, but don't tell it any futher.
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Old 25th January 2016, 07:33 AM   #9
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I think there's an important distinction which I may have fudged in the OP
Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
To be honest, Jean, I don't think there is anyone there sufficiently qualified to do research of the nature required.
Originally Posted by tusenfem View Post
I also think that they are scared shootless of actually trying to look at data.
While there certainly are some EU acolytes who convey confidence in their 'data analysis' abilities, I think most are honest enough to recognize that they couldn't possibly do any analysis (worth anything), on their own. Of course, few are open enough to admit this, but some do.

My puzzlement is somewhat different, not so much the doing of any research, but at EU adherents' apparent complete absence of curiosity about any aspect of 'the EU' which could, potentially, be studied.

Some examples.

'Arp woz rite!', about discordant redshifts, is a common EU belief. To me, an obvious thing to do would be to point Hubble at some of his most famous examples, to get better resolution data, spectra, etc. Yet almost no EU fan seems ever to have thought this would be a good idea! Another: a sky survey like SDSS, but of the southern sky.

'Plasma phenomena are scale invariant!' is another (OK, few express it like this). Again, an obvious thing to me would be to build a ~100m scale plasma lab, to test this. Or to mess with the Earth's plasmasphere, by injecting ions. Or ... yet no EU believer seems to ever have suggested such things! (OK, I realize that the second example has actually been done, but as it's not visible in daily popsci pieces it seems no EUer knows about it).

'The Sun is powered by galaxy-wide Birkeland currents!' You'd think this would have huge implications for astronauts going to the Moon (or beyond), not to mention the ability of space probes to function as planned, right? Ditto re 'you can't see the currents because it's a plasma dark mode!' Yet apparently no EU follower has even thought of doing some plasma experiments to see what sorts of particle fluxes might be encountered by astronauts or space probes if the Sun is, truly, powered by giant Birkeland currents, of the ISM is a 'dark mode' plasma discharge (or whatever). FWIW, Tom Bridgman has several good posts on just this topic; EU fanatics who have responded have, IMHO, completely ignored this ... not that they don't think it's an important question, just that they seem to believe it cannot possibly be tested. Period.

It's true that one of the leading 'electrical theorists', David Talbott, is on record as saying that any quantitative analysis is 'a ruse'*. However, even with this restriction, EU supporters seems remarkably silent on suggesting even qualitative new tests/experiments/observations.

*Yes! He actually said that!! In the EC thread, here in ISF. I don't really understand his position on this; he seems to think that, in a true scientific enquiry, one must first establish 'qualitative truth' (my term), and only once that's firm start considering quantitative analyses. Yeah right ... makes no sense at all.
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Old 25th January 2016, 07:41 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
I do believe I have asked this possibly rhetorical question before but, "How do you explain the lack of evidence of the Stark_effectWP in the presence of the monstrously huge electric fields that rule the Solar System? Galaxy? Universe?"
There are, IMHO, thousands of such questions, and they get asked - of EU fans - all the time.

To the extent that there are any meaningful responses, none - it seems to me - include the concept that someone could devise an experiment or observation to actually test the EU claims. Yeah, EUers couldn't do any such tests anyway, even with extensive support; however, the most puzzling thing is why they seem so completely uninterested in any tests, ones designed starting from core EU concepts.

For most of them, in their daily lives, they surely are not so uninterested, are they?

For example, if the lights in the kitchen go out, they surely think of seeing if a circuit breaker has tripped, or that lights in other rooms still work, or that other houses in the street still have lights on, or ... don't they? I mean, they don't immediately conclude the local grid has gone down, and call their electrical utility's hotline, do they?
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Old 25th January 2016, 07:55 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by ben m View Post
My sense is: EU fans are genuinely "crackpots" rather than "physicists with an unpopular idea." They genuinely think they're doing fine, and they genuinely look at their annotated NASA videos and think they see a slam dunk. "Obviously the truth is now clear! If the opposing cabal hasn't accepted it yet---if that two-hour Wal Thornhill video didn't convince everyone, what good would more evidence do?"
Yes, but ...

Even the most fervent of physics crackpots do, at least sometimes, consider what novel tests might be done to confirm their paradigm-shifting discoveries ... put an electron in an octopole magnetic field, crossed with a quadrupole electric field, ... send a Planck-like probe to orbit the L2 point of Neptune ... create a plasma with these characteristics and measure the induced redshifts ...

What EU acolytes never seem to do is think about how their firmly held ideas might be tested, in ways that have not already been done by mainstreamers.

Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
As for Thornhill's latest ramblings on dipole gravity.....oh dear.
This provides a good illustration: his idea has been criticized, in the Thunderdolts forum, e.g. by 'querious'. And at least one simple test has been proposed (by querious). Yet aside from someone who has a competing, equally crackpot, 'theory of gravity', no one seems to take the idea of actually testing Thornhill's idea at all seriously!
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Old 25th January 2016, 08:00 AM   #12
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I think you vastly overestimate the degree to which EU fans are actually interested in scientific truth and inquiry. What they're really after is just a smug feeling that they know more than the mainstream, and have the inside scoop on reality.
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Old 25th January 2016, 07:59 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Wunover137 View Post
I think you vastly overestimate the degree to which EU fans are actually interested in scientific truth and inquiry. What they're really after is just a smug feeling that they know more than the mainstream, and have the inside scoop on reality.
The way too warm and smug feeling of people who have way overdosed on psychotropics and anesthetics in combination with bad gin!!!!!!
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Old 25th January 2016, 08:27 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Wunover137 View Post
I think you vastly overestimate the degree to which EU fans are actually interested in scientific truth and inquiry. What they're really after is just a smug feeling that they know more than the mainstream, and have the inside scoop on reality.
You can extend this to most adherents of pretty much ANY conspiracy theory... and you would be right.
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Old 27th January 2016, 06:56 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Wunover137 View Post
I think you vastly overestimate the degree to which EU fans are actually interested in scientific truth and inquiry. What they're really after is just a smug feeling that they know more than the mainstream, and have the inside scoop on reality.
It's certainly true that a great many EUers fit that description.

However, by no means all.

For example, there's a relatively new thread in Thunderdolts in which a journalist asks "Which aspects of EU resonate most with you?" (I'm not giving a link). One of the questions she asks is "Why do you prefer EU to traditional modern physics?" While the number of public responses, so far, is small (~ten), those who have replied all seem very keen, and their answers at least strongly imply a deep interest in scientific truth and inquiry.

Yet, as far as I can tell, none of them have ever proposed anything remotely resembling a novel test (even if only in principle)*

Ditto the high priests, Scott, Talbott, Thornhill.*

Ditto the Thunderdolts admins and mods (there are ~a half dozen).*

*with the exception of the two I've already mentioned, SAFIRE and perhaps Lerner's Focus Fusion
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Old 27th January 2016, 08:17 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by JeanTate View Post
*with the exception of the two I've already mentioned, SAFIRE and perhaps Lerner's Focus Fusion
I missed one: in the ISF thread, Wallace Thornhill: The Long Path to Understanding Gravity | EU2015, there's mention of a thread in the Thunderdolts forum, questioning Thornhill's idea. Some posts in that thread mention possible (novel) tests of his idea. However, I think it's fair to say that the majority of responses to the idea of tests have been reasons excuses why such tests are invalid (David Talbott's implied dismissal is particularly revealing, IMHO).

New twist: a lot of the EU stuff emphasizes 'multi-disciplinary' research, presumably a genuflection to Velikovsky (V). Even if you accept this, and many a EU acolyte apparently does, why then is there no apparent work done to test EU ideas? For example, in the decades since V, there has been a vast amount of new material published on previously uncontacted people's myths, artifacts, etc, and perhaps even more new archaeological findings. At least some of these are surely pertinent to core EU ideas, yet apparently no EU fan has even thought to suggest tests of the EU by digging into such data.

Apparently even a multi-disciplinary approach, per the EU, is devoid of any and all novel testing ...
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Old 27th January 2016, 12:37 PM   #17
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We should also remember, Jean, that scientific evidence against their ideas is summarily dismissed as being wrong. It's nothing to do with science, for the most part. Take Peratt; came up with his hypothesis on galactic formation etc., and at least had the decency to propose how it would be falsified; i.e. the emission of synchrotron radiation, which we should have seen in various all-sky surveys. Never been seen.
EU then just find another fruitcake to say that the surveys are just seeing reflections of the oceans, or some such nonsense!
tl;dr?
It's not science. It's a quasi-religious cult, based on mythology. Anything that doesn't fit their world view is dismissed a being wrong, purely on the basis that they must be right.
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Old 27th January 2016, 12:45 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by JeanTate View Post
I mean, isn't there even one EU adherent who is curious enough to think about doing an experiment, or making an observation, to test EU ideas?
Possibly because there's no point trying to test an idea that's not coherent enough to be able to produce testable predictions?

You'll have to wait until they come up with a mathematical model for the EU hypothesis, so they can calculate exactly how the EU model differs from the standard model. Until they do that (and they probably never will), any possible test, experiment or observation will be inconclusive, because there's no possible way for them to know whether or not the results support or contradict the EU hypothesis.
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Old 27th January 2016, 03:12 PM   #19
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Electric Universe: has there ever been a scientific research program?

The preliminary (first) SAFIRE "paper" provides some clues to their attitude toward EU experiments. Their so-called hypothesis is, boiled down, the Sun is primarily electric in nature. The heart of their apparatus was a spherical anode in a vacuum jar. No points to anyone but a total newbie for guessing why it was sperical. They declared the details of their electrode configuration "proprietary". Like they were going to patent it or something. More like it prevented anyone from easily finding a paper, perhaps many decades old, where someone already explored that electrode geometry. They used the JMP statistics analysis package, which made their results look sciency and also allowed them to "publish" their paper on a user forum on the JMP maker's web site. The payoff at the end of the paper was a comparison of a photo of granules on the Sun's surface with tufts of plasma on the surface of their anode. This was claimed as evidence the Sun is powered by electricity.

All in all, they get a lot of mileage out of stuff like this. Something to point to to counter claims they don't do research that looks good enough to fool the great unwashed. A basis to solicit contributions so they can "scale up" their apparatus to get more supposed evidence. I can't wait until the SAFIRE update comes out from behind their paywall; it should be, uh, interesting. Apologies to the OP if this has been too OT.


ETA: I have a copy of the preliminary report in pdf; PM me if you'd like me to send a copy.
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Old 27th January 2016, 09:34 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by JeanTate View Post
I mean, isn't there even one EU adherent who is curious enough to think about doing an experiment, or making an observation, to test EU ideas? It seems to me that it'd take just one such to vastly improve the EU's standing (assuming the results of such experiments or observations were consistent with "EU theory", whatever that is).

The only experimentation ever done by the Electric Universe swindlers (Talbott and Thornhill) is to test the ease at which they can fleece money from gullible cult members -- this test is conducted each year and promoted as an "EU Conference".

Their next test is scheduled for June 17, 2016 in Phoenix, Arizona.
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Old 27th January 2016, 11:36 PM   #21
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At the same time I wonder if there are EU believers/enthusiasts who have at least sat down, picked up pen and paper, and formed the idea that they'd make a testable prediction. And maybe something like this happens:

OK, here goes, this Wikipedia page seems to have the equations I need. Gimme ten minutes and I'll know the radio-brightness of the Sun-powering Birkeland current. <math math math> Wait, no, I must have something wrong <erase erase erase>. Huh. <rereads wikipedia article on solar radio emissions>. That's way way way too bright, how did I drop a factor of 10^20? <scribble scribble>

"What does that mean? Does it mean the external power source isn't there ... <closes eyes, mumbles brief prayer to Velikovsky> naaaaah. This radio calculation must just be more complicated than I expected, somehow. <tears up paper, closes computer>
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Old 28th January 2016, 07:50 AM   #22
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The reason no formal studies or tests have been done of EU notions (not up to the level of actual theories) is that by the time a qualified person understands what it is they're shaking their heads in bafflement that adults could actually believe it.

I'm just an over educated carpenter, and it took me 5 minutes to go through the process.

RocketBoy1.0 was shown one of their cartoons in school (we no longer attend that one and I think I got her fired over it) and started telling me about it after school. So I looked it up while making afterschool snacks. By the time snacks were done I was interrogating RocketBoy1.0 in bafflement, hoping it was part of a critical thinking component. Nope. It was presented to 4th graders unironically, to be taken at face value as science.

I was furious.
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Old 28th January 2016, 11:52 AM   #23
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Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Do not post on behalf of banned members.



Many of us can no longer post comments over at the Thunderbolts Forum since David Talbott went on his banning spree; anyone critical of EU theories will usually end up being censored (comments deleted) and then banned.

I was told by Talbott (paraphrasing): "If you want to criticize EU theories, do it somewhere else -- you are permanently banned from this forum."

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Old 28th January 2016, 12:53 PM   #24
JeanTate
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Originally Posted by Slings and Arrows View Post
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Do not post on behalf of banned members.
OMG! That's ... um ... amazing!

"I'll tell you what Jean, just hand me 10 million dollars and I'll be happy to fix you right up."

"I'd also love to conduct a series of tests related to various types of inelastic scattering that occur in plasma environments."

"I'd also be willing to explore fusion processes in high energy discharges if I had the funds."

"The sky is basically the limit with respect to experimenting with various EU/PC ideas,"

You get the idea.

Amidst all the whining, is there actually a proposal for some novel research, to test EU ideas?

I mean, replicating Birkeland's terrella experiments would sure be fun, but it wouldn't be novel, would it? Just like SAFIRE is not novel (unless you count the 'proprietary' part), right?

In the space of just a few minutes, I think I could come up with half a dozen novel, Birkeland-like, experiments which would test a core EU idea ('electric Sun'). For example, a scale model which replicates the observed density of the interplanetary medium (IPM) between the Sun's corona and ~150 million km out, and which measures particle fluxes at various (simulated) radial distances. Why would this be novel? Because none of Birkeland's experiments attempted, or achieved, a density gradient resembling the observed IPM one (it couldn't, not least because that density gradient was not known until long after he died).

Quote:
Many of us can no longer post comments over at the Thunderbolts Forum since David Talbott went on his banning spree; anyone critical of EU theories will usually end up being censored and permanently banned.
If I'm not mistaken, the 'virtual executions' (as MM so delicately puts it) have been going on, over in Thunderdolts, for a long time. In fact, didn't I read that Dave Smith (the Thunderdolts admin) said, explicitly, that anyone saying the EU is pseudoscience will be instantly, and permanently, banned (no matter how well, or otherwise, they make a case that it is)?

Besides, if David Talbott's 'quantitative testing is a ruse' applies beyond the 'electric comet' idea, the moment you post any such, you'll surely be banned, right? Watch out MM!

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Old 28th January 2016, 01:18 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by ferd burfle View Post
The preliminary (first) SAFIRE "paper" provides some clues to their attitude toward EU experiments. Their so-called hypothesis is, boiled down, the Sun is primarily electric in nature. The heart of their apparatus was a spherical anode in a vacuum jar. No points to anyone but a total newbie for guessing why it was sperical. They declared the details of their electrode configuration "proprietary". Like they were going to patent it or something. More like it prevented anyone from easily finding a paper, perhaps many decades old, where someone already explored that electrode geometry. They used the JMP statistics analysis package, which made their results look sciency and also allowed them to "publish" their paper on a user forum on the JMP maker's web site. The payoff at the end of the paper was a comparison of a photo of granules on the Sun's surface with tufts of plasma on the surface of their anode. This was claimed as evidence the Sun is powered by electricity.

All in all, they get a lot of mileage out of stuff like this. Something to point to to counter claims they don't do research that looks good enough to fool the great unwashed. A basis to solicit contributions so they can "scale up" their apparatus to get more supposed evidence. I can't wait until the SAFIRE update comes out from behind their paywall; it should be, uh, interesting. Apologies to the OP if this has been too OT.


ETA: I have a copy of the preliminary report in pdf; PM me if you'd like me to send a copy.
It's not at all OT; thanks for this post.

I'm quite curious about SAFIRE, particularly why anyone thinks it tests any aspect of 'EU theory' (such a thing does not exist in this universe, not in a scientific form), much less the 'electric Sun' one.

Pretty pictures aside, was there any attempt - at all - to show that the conditions on/near the anode resemble those observed (re the real Sun)? Composition of the gas/plasma, density (and gradient), temperature, particle flows, .... ? I suspect not; I think the whole idea was to produce nothing but pretty pictures, so that EUers like David Talbott (DT) could claim 'qualitative proof' (and rant about any questioning re quantitative matches being 'a ruse').

It goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway, I'd love to be proven wrong.

Originally Posted by ben m
At the same time I wonder if there are EU believers/enthusiasts who have at least sat down, picked up pen and paper, and formed the idea that they'd make a testable prediction. And maybe something like this happens:
I'm sure there have been, and some of those questioning Thornhill's, um, 'EU theory of gravity' have done just that. However, any such analyses are actively discouraged, by the high priest DT himself (he of the 'ruse' fame).

@Jrrarglblarg: that's pretty astonishing! I wonder if there was explicit support for that teacher, from the EU crowd, or if she acted on her own?
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Old 28th January 2016, 02:34 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by JeanTate View Post

If I'm not mistaken, the 'virtual executions' (as MM so delicately puts it) have been going on, over in Thunderdolts, for a long time. In fact, didn't I read that Dave Smith (the Thunderdolts admin) said, explicitly, that anyone saying the EU is pseudoscience will be instantly, and permanently, banned (no matter how well, or otherwise, they make a case that it is)?

Classic cult-like behavior. Either tow the line (group think), or be shown the door. EU is indistinguishable from a cult.
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Old 28th January 2016, 04:45 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Slings and Arrows View Post
Classic cult-like behavior. Either tow the line (group think), or be shown the door. EU is indistinguishable from a cult.
Every time I see "EU" being used on its own, for about half a second I can't help but think "European Union".
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Old 28th January 2016, 07:19 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Brian-M View Post
Every time I see "EU" being used on its own, for about half a second I can't help but think "European Union".
Every time I see MM used I think: "Mozina; moron" Can't be helped.
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Old 29th January 2016, 12:41 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
Every time I see MM used I think: "Mozina; moron" Can't be helped.

There is also another MM (Miles Mathis), whose name is frequently mentioned by the Thunderdolts clan. For those who don’t know, Mathis is an artist who claims that pi is actually equal to 4.

I bring this up only to show that some (but not all) of the EU supporters will believe nearly anything they are told, no matter how ridiculous or outlandish, as long as it is being touted as “anti-mainstream”. And it is this small group of naïve and gullible halfwits that Talbott and Thornhill have been regularly fleecing for over a decade now.
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Old 29th January 2016, 01:08 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Slings and Arrows View Post
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Do not post on behalf of banned members.
If you're reading this, MM, thanks for the invitation, but no thanks.

One of my first, if not the first, post I would make in your forum would surely get me instantly, and permanently, banned (and the post deleted). Why? Because I'd be making a polite but firm claim that "the EU" is not pseudoscience, but anti-science.

So, here's my response:
  • I searched your posts here in ISF/JREF, and found none which even hints at a novel test of any aspect of "the EU"
  • if you did, indeed, present such a proposed test, by all means provide a link
  • I'm quite interested in your "a series of tests related to various types of inelastic scattering that occur in plasma environments"; would you mind writing a para or three description of the kind of tests you have thought about?
  • be sure to include things like the density and temperature regimes you'd test (an order or magnitude or three is OK)
  • and please, more meat, less whine.
And in case you're reading this, comingfrom, why don't you join ISF and discuss your ideas with us? Be sure to read the membership agreement carefully; it was - IIRC - a clear violation of this agreement that got MM banned here (i.e. it had - pace MM - nothing whatsoever to do with his advocacy of "the EU").

I note that you, comingfrom, did not propose any novel tests of "the EU", and that you repeated the trope that space physics and plasma astrophysics is "doing research in space for EU theory"; "lie" is how Reality Check would characterize this nonsense.

Last edited by zooterkin; 31st January 2016 at 08:15 AM.
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Old 29th January 2016, 01:21 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Slings and Arrows View Post
There is also another MM (Miles Mathis), whose name is frequently mentioned by the Thunderdolts clan. For those who don’t know, Mathis is an artist who claims that pi is actually equal to 4.

I bring this up only to show that some (but not all) of the EU supporters will believe nearly anything they are told, no matter how ridiculous or outlandish, as long as it is being touted as “anti-mainstream”. And it is this small group of naïve and gullible halfwits that Talbott and Thornhill have been regularly fleecing for over a decade now.
Thanks for reminding me of this!

I remember reading some of the posts in Thunderdolts on this, for their entertainment value.

But there's another side to it: not only did/do rather a lot of EU groupies swallow MM's, um, artistry hook line and sinker, but (IIRC) not a single one seems to have even thought about testing his published ideas!

Of course, that no one did is not at all surprising; it is entirely consistent with the EU being, not pseudoscience*, but anti-science.

*in pseudoscience there is at least the acknowledgment that testing is possible (even if only in principle); as this thread has shown, there is no such evidence for those who espouse "the EU" ...
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Old 29th January 2016, 02:09 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Slings and Arrows View Post
There is also another MM (Miles Mathis), whose name is frequently mentioned by the Thunderdolts clan. For those who don’t know, Mathis is an artist who claims that pi is actually equal to 4.

I bring this up only to show that some (but not all) of the EU supporters will believe nearly anything they are told, no matter how ridiculous or outlandish, as long as it is being touted as “anti-mainstream”. And it is this small group of naïve and gullible halfwits that Talbott and Thornhill have been regularly fleecing for over a decade now.
I believe this is the ONLY requirement to gain credibility with them.
One of their biggest thought leaders, Wal Thornhill, has a theory of gravity that reveals an utter lack of any understanding of the subject of electric forces, the one subject they are supposed to be at least somewhat knowledgeable about. Not only that, his audiences don't seem to know anything about the subject either, as he's been touting this same theory for about 8 years now. It's truly a fascinating case study of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Last edited by Wunover137; 29th January 2016 at 03:17 PM.
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Old 31st January 2016, 07:30 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by JeanTate View Post
If you're reading this, MM, thanks for the invitation, but no thanks.

One of my first, if not the first, post I would make in your forum would surely get me instantly, and permanently, banned (and the post deleted). Why? Because I'd be making a polite but firm claim that "the EU" is not pseudoscience, but anti-science.
Over in Thunderdolts, MM replied thusly:
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Do not post on behalf of banned members.


His "neutral location"? christianforums.com

Word to the wise, MM: for an International Skeptics forum member, something with that name is the very antithesis of "neutral".

In the spirit of cooperation, may I recommend the CosmoQuest forum as a far better "neutral location"?

Quote:
So, here's my response:
  • I searched your posts here in ISF/JREF, and found none which even hints at a novel test of any aspect of "the EU"
  • if you did, indeed, present such a proposed test, by all means provide a link
  • I'm quite interested in your "a series of tests related to various types of inelastic scattering that occur in plasma environments"; would you mind writing a para or three description of the kind of tests you have thought about?
  • be sure to include things like the density and temperature regimes you'd test (an order or magnitude or three is OK)
  • and please, more meat, less whine.
Here's MM's response, re "your posts here in ISF/JREF" which contain novel tests of "the EU" (I am including only the meat, not the whine):

Quote:
And here's his response re ""a series of tests related to various types of inelastic scattering that occur in plasma environments"; would you mind writing a para or three description of the kind of tests you have thought about?" (I am including only the meat, not the whine):

Quote:
Would you care to try harder, MM?

I will happily quote anything which is a real response to my two questions; and I will, for now on, ignore anything that's got no meat in it.

Last edited by zooterkin; 31st January 2016 at 08:17 AM.
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Old 31st January 2016, 08:19 AM   #34
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Mod WarningIf you want to hold a conversation with someone who has been banned from this forum, then you will need to do that elsewhere. Importing their comments from another place and replying to them here is in violation of rule 7.
Posted By:zooterkin
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Old 31st January 2016, 08:22 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Mod WarningIf you want to hold a conversation with someone who has been banned from this forum, then you will need to do that elsewhere. Importing their comments from another place and replying to them here is in violation of rule 7.
Posted By:zooterkin
Thanks for the reminder, zooterkin.

Clearly I need to re-read the rules; apologies for the (unintended) rule violation; I'll try harder in future.
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Old 31st January 2016, 09:15 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by JeanTate View Post
Thanks for the reminder, zooterkin.

Clearly I need to re-read the rules; apologies for the (unintended) rule violation; I'll try harder in future.

I was unaware that MM had been banned. When did that happen?
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Old 31st January 2016, 09:44 AM   #37
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Quote:
His "neutral location"? christianforums.com
So the invisible Electric Universe pairing up with invisible deities? A match made in heaven!
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Old 31st January 2016, 02:10 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
So the invisible Electric Universe pairing up with invisible deities? A match made in heaven!

Velikovsky is their supreme deity, with Talbott and Thornhill serving as the high priests.

The Apostle Mozina is only a messenger boy; tasked with delivering Velikovsky's sacred writings to the unwashed masses.

Last edited by Slings and Arrows; 31st January 2016 at 02:13 PM.
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Old 7th February 2016, 06:44 AM   #39
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Quick update: no proposals for novel tests of "the EU", here or elsewhere.

I've been reading up on Birkeland and his experiments; fascinating stuff!

However, I cannot fathom why today's EU acolytes are so enamored with the terrella experiments he did. After all, based on what we know today - about the interplanetary medium/solar wind, corona, etc - the physical conditions (density, temperature, composition, etc) inside his terrellae bear no resemblance to the reality of the inner solar system, do they? This is not to fault Birkeland; nothing was known about the IPM (etc) at the time.

More: I haven't found anything - anything at all! - by EU enthusiasts or anyone else on attempts to show how plasma scaling relationships can get Birkeland's experiments to within even an order of magnitude (or three) of reality.

Ditto SAFIRE (more on this later).

Is it truly just about pretty pictures?
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Old 7th February 2016, 09:58 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by JeanTate View Post
Is it truly just about pretty pictures?
Certainly not! It's also about ego. They get more recognition within the (admittedly small) EU community, than they would ever get in the real world of science.
Having a bunch of scientifically illiterate followers is better than having none at all.
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