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Old 21st February 2018, 09:24 AM   #81
Belz...
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Originally Posted by Crawtator View Post
Trying to inform myself doesn't mean I don't know anything.
Do you not know the meaning of the word "also"? I worded my post above specifically so you couldn't answer this, and you completely blew it.

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I'm not sure what your problem is.
I told you exactly what my problem is. The fact that this is the second time in the same post that I have to tell you to read what I write, added to the fact that you didn't understand the details of the experiment correctly, seems to point to a reading comprehension problem on your part.
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Old 21st February 2018, 09:33 AM   #82
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Well, first of all you have misunderstood everything I have posted about the experiment, because I have never claimed ANYTHING about the details of the experiment, but for the portion related to the outcomes of sleep upon the cats involved. Hell, I admitted that I cannot even get a copy of the full text of the peer-reviewed article, so I wanted to know more about the periods of wakefulness and what that entailed.

And you throwing in the "also" thing is condescending as hell. Accusing me of insulting others and stooping that low seems hypocritical.
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Old 21st February 2018, 09:36 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Crawtator View Post
Well, first of all you have misunderstood everything I have posted about the experiment, because I have never claimed ANYTHING about the details of the experiment
Now you're just being overly defensive. Go back and read what you wrote.

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And you throwing in the "also" thing is condescending as hell.
What are you talking about? How is it condescending to give you two complementary reasons for my accusation? You're not making any sense.

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seems hypocritical
Ah yes, respond to my accusation of hypocrisy by reflecting that back on me, somehow. That'll work.
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Old 21st February 2018, 09:42 AM   #84
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You're wasting your time Belz. The force is strong with this one.
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Old 21st February 2018, 09:44 AM   #85
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Thanks for the advice, but I want to clarify this.
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Old 21st February 2018, 09:55 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Now you're just being overly defensive. Go back and read what you wrote.



What are you talking about? How is it condescending to give you two complementary reasons for my accusation? You're not making any sense.



Ah yes, respond to my accusation of hypocrisy by reflecting that back on me, somehow. That'll work.
Ok...maybe my post #57 is the point of contention and it appears to be poorly worded in the first sentence. My main focus on this particular experiment wasn't the results obtained at the end of the experiment, but that the procedures used in the experiment produced vastly different outcomes for the sleep cycles of the cat, even though the hypothalamus was left in for both experimental setups. I am not trying to be overly contentious, but I don't believe that anyone here is arguing against that.

And the part about condescension was in reference to your second post referencing the "also" comment and questioning my reading comprehension, not the initial post. If I have offended anyone, I sincerely apologize and would really enjoy further discussing this topic and moving forward from any untoward misunderstandings on my part.
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Old 21st February 2018, 09:58 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Crawtator View Post
Ok...maybe my post #57 is the point of contention and it appears to be poorly worded in the first sentence. My main focus on this particular experiment wasn't the results obtained at the end of the experiment, but that the procedures used in the experiment produced vastly different outcomes for the sleep cycles of the cat, even though the hypothalamus was left in for both experimental setups. I am not trying to be overly contentious, but I don't believe that anyone here is arguing against that.
Fair enough. My point is simply that you were being condescending to others who disagreed with you before you admitted that you didn't know much about the experiment, or the field. I found that a bit silly.

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If I have offended anyone, I sincerely apologize
Please don't do that. My feelings should be no concern of yours.
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Old 21st February 2018, 10:08 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Fascinating study, very simple, of course this may just be a correlation. Given the prevalence of sleep throughout the animal kingdom it is unlikely it doesn't serve a necessary purpose.
One would think that there would be a significant evolutionary advantage to remaining constantly alert (especially for prey species), so it seems that sleep must be absolutely essential, otherwise animals that were able to function without sleep would have out-competed those that sleep.
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Old 21st February 2018, 10:09 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
One would think that there would be a significant evolutionary advantage to remaining constantly alert (especially for prey species), so it seems that sleep must be absolutely essential, otherwise animals that were able to function without sleep would have out-competed those that sleep.
When I was younger I used to say that dreams were your mental interpretation of a short-memory-wide defrag, as your brain moved stuff to permanent memory, and trashed other stuff. I still don't know how accurate that was.
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Old 21st February 2018, 10:12 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
One would think that there would be a significant evolutionary advantage to remaining constantly alert (especially for prey species), so it seems that sleep must be absolutely essential, otherwise animals that were able to function without sleep would have out-competed those that sleep.
Yes, makes sense.
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Old 21st February 2018, 10:20 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
When I was younger I used to say that dreams were your mental interpretation of a short-memory-wide defrag, as your brain moved stuff to permanent memory, and trashed other stuff. I still don't know how accurate that was.
I think it's safe to say that dreams and memory are connected to some degree. But that's more consensus opinion than fact based science. At least as far as I know.

We do know that they're as, or almost as, important as sleep. Allow a person to sleep but deprive them of REM sleep and you get some bizarre behavior.
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Old 21st February 2018, 10:20 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
When I was younger I used to say that dreams were your mental interpretation of a short-memory-wide defrag, as your brain moved stuff to permanent memory, and trashed other stuff. I still don't know how accurate that was.
Originally Posted by Cheetah View Post
Yes, makes sense.
Last night I got an error message during the process.
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Old 21st February 2018, 10:37 AM   #93
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Well I can't tell you why animals need sleep. But I do it to feel rested.
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Old 21st February 2018, 10:47 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
When I was younger I used to say that dreams were your mental interpretation of a short-memory-wide defrag, as your brain moved stuff to permanent memory, and trashed other stuff. I still don't know how accurate that was.
Somewhat o/t here, but -

As I get older (67 now, eek!) I find I wake up much more abruptly than I used to, and often with the most recent dream still clear in my mind. But the fragments of semi-random junk that were woven into that dream are also sometimes there, and often their order of appearance was not at all the way they got woven into the dream. So, there was one occasion where there were bits that involved a Morris Minor (an old Brit car, MrsB once owned one), Gandalf doing something (I'd watched the Eddie Izzard LotR sketch) and a remote road in the Scottish highlands (no idea where that came from), in that order. In the dream Gandalf was driving me up that road in a Morris Minor

[/meaningless rambling anecdote]
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Old 21st February 2018, 10:59 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
As I get older (67 now, eek!) I find I wake up much more abruptly than I used to, and often with the most recent dream still clear in my mind.
I'm remembering my dreams less than when I was a kid, for some reason. Maybe I don't pay attention as much as I used to. I did notice early on that the content of my dreams always relates to recent memory, aside from the occasional long-term stuff.
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Old 21st February 2018, 12:42 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'm remembering my dreams less than when I was a kid, for some reason. Maybe I don't pay attention as much as I used to. I did notice early on that the content of my dreams always relates to recent memory, aside from the occasional long-term stuff.
I'm also remembering mine less. It is because with age some become wise and already know everything they need to know, so no need for much consolidation.

I seem to recall reading about a study on rats that were trained to run mazes. Their brains were monitored in some way and neural patterns that occurred as they learnt the maze were repeated during REM sleep in the evenings. They appeared to dream about running the maze.
Possibly a repetition of the memory to let it sink in.
Mammalian sleep is more complex and a combination of consolidating memories and resting synapses and other stuff as they cycle through the different sleep states.
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Old 21st February 2018, 12:54 PM   #97
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My dreams about things that happened in my recent everyday life (say, something occurring the same day or shortly prior) are highly inaccurate. IOW, when my dream re-lives the event it gets it all wrong.

But when I am awake I can recall the event with accuracy.
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Old 21st February 2018, 01:21 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
My dreams about things that happened in my recent everyday life (say, something occurring the same day or shortly prior) are highly inaccurate. IOW, when my dream re-lives the event it gets it all wrong.
I don't think dreams are reenactments in any way. I think they are mostly random neuron firings in order to change the structure of the memories, and the brain then constructs a narrative around what it experiences. Mostly a side effect of the process, I'd think.
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Old 21st February 2018, 01:33 PM   #99
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I wonder if there is a link between dreams and the shrinking of the synapses mentioned in the article linked in the OP?

Perhaps dreams are the result of this shrinking? Events, memories... all sorts of stuff being reorganized, prioritized.

Total speculation on my part but doesn't seem unreasonable to me.
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Old 21st February 2018, 01:44 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I don't think dreams are reenactments in any way. I think they are mostly random neuron firings in order to change the structure of the memories, and the brain then constructs a narrative around what it experiences. Mostly a side effect of the process, I'd think.
Originally Posted by Kings Full View Post
I wonder if there is a link between dreams and the shrinking of the synapses mentioned in the article linked in the OP?

Perhaps dreams are the result of this shrinking? Events, memories... all sorts of stuff being reorganized, prioritized.

Total speculation on my part but doesn't seem unreasonable to me.
Seems a plausible theory. Often my/our dreams involve people and events that are decades away from recent occurrences, so a simple 'ordering' of recent experiences really seems like a stretch when it comes to explaining dreams.
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Old 23rd February 2018, 01:13 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Crawtator View Post
Jordan Peterson discusses an experiment done in which the brain and limbic system of a cat are removed, but the brain stem and spine left intact. Now, I couldn't pull up the text of the findings (if someone can, link would be appreciated), but the cat was able to walk just fine (videos available online easily) and was hyper-curious about it's surroundings (Mr. Peterson believes that this was because every experience was novel to the animal and it couldn't create memories which would avoid every experience from being overwhelming).

What I thought was interesting for this discussion was that Mr. Peterson states that the cat also slept. So, as a poster said above, this activity (sleeping) may not be associated only with brains but with the more general nervous system. I'm not sure if that does away with the argument in the main post, but I offer it as a curious example of how counter-intuitive the workings of the nervous system can be.
I've heard that even jellyfish, which have no brains, nevertheless sleep.

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/...-sleep/540432/

This article may also be relevant to the topic of the thread.

Quote:
Sleep is widespread across the animal kingdom. Fish sleep. Flies sleep. Even nematode worms, which Nath studies, sleep. But jellyfish belong to one of the most ancient animal groups, which split off from those other creatures at least 600 million years ago. If they also have a version of sleep, it suggests that the roots of this behavior are more ancient than anyone suspected.

It’s still unclear why exactly animals sleep at all, but there’s no shortage of explanations. Scientists have variously argued that sleep helps individuals to flush toxins from their brains, to consolidate new memories, or to reset their brains for a fresh day of learning. But none of these hypotheses make much sense for a jellyfish because they don’t have brains at all. They just have a nerve net—a loose ring of neurons that runs around the rim of their pulsating bells. “Maybe the drive for this sleep state was something more basic, like conserving energy,” says Bedbrook. “It might be something that’s required if you have a nervous system, regardless of how simple or complex it is.”
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Old 23rd February 2018, 01:43 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I've heard that even jellyfish, which have no brains, nevertheless sleep.

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/...-sleep/540432/

This article may also be relevant to the topic of the thread.
Once again, it looks a lot like 'rest' to me. If I feel a bit weary and put my feet up for 30 mins and read the paper while sipping a cool beer then that would be classed as 'sleep' according to some of these so-called studies.
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Old 23rd February 2018, 09:31 PM   #103
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You should differentiate between resting your body and resting your neurons, the latter can be called sleep.
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Old 24th February 2018, 07:23 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Ok, Darat. I see you're in "Woah! I don't understand the most basic things!" mode. Have you ever done any work? Physical or mental? It just so happens that you need rest after that. Why do you think that is, if all of your body is designed to work "24 hours a day"? And when you're asleep, most of your organs work at a reduced rate. You didn't include that in your response. Gee, I wonder why.



No, it wouldn't seem that at all. You're confusing not having a definitive answer with total puzzlement.
Ah, but the brain is made up of fat, not muscle.
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Old 24th February 2018, 07:37 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Crawtator View Post
Jordan Peterson discusses an experiment done in which the brain and limbic system of a cat are removed, but the brain stem and spine left intact. Now, I couldn't pull up the text of the findings (if someone can, link would be appreciated), but the cat was able to walk just fine (videos available online easily) and was hyper-curious about it's surroundings (Mr. Peterson believes that this was because every experience was novel to the animal and it couldn't create memories which would avoid every experience from being overwhelming).

What I thought was interesting for this discussion was that Mr. Peterson states that the cat also slept. So, as a poster said above, this activity (sleeping) may not be associated only with brains but with the more general nervous system. I'm not sure if that does away with the argument in the main post, but I offer it as a curious example of how counter-intuitive the workings of the nervous system can be.
That's because the cerebullum (based at the back of the head) stores a separate type of memory than the frontal lobes. So, whilst someone with brain damage may immediately forget what anybody says or what they see can still do things like ride a bike or play the piano (cf Clive Wearing, a famous broadcaster whose frontal lobes were destroyed by a virus). So that cat just walked as per normal, although if it could talk, it wouldn't be able to describe it in any way.

I saw a recent study which claims sleep is a way of for the brain to clear out the 'junk' (all the stuff filtered out by the consciousness as irrelevant). Hence the weirdness of dreams.
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Old 24th February 2018, 08:08 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I saw a recent study which claims sleep is a way of for the brain to clear out the 'junk' (all the stuff filtered out by the consciousness as irrelevant). Hence the weirdness of dreams.
Is this a notion suggesting that there is a homunculus somewhere in the brain? How does the brain make a decision concerning what is "junk" and what is "something good to keep"? It's as if there is a smart little person inside there who is making the decision based on some values system that they possess. Or to go strictly biology... the neurons have value systems and can decide what is junk and what is good to keep. WTF, does each neuron have its own brain?

It can be challenging to discuss what the brain is doing and at the same time avoid the homunculus.
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Old 24th February 2018, 08:54 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Is this a notion suggesting that there is a homunculus somewhere in the brain? How does the brain make a decision concerning what is "junk" and what is "something good to keep"? It's as if there is a smart little person inside there who is making the decision based on some values system that they possess. Or to go strictly biology... the neurons have value systems and can decide what is junk and what is good to keep. WTF, does each neuron have its own brain?

It can be challenging to discuss what the brain is doing and at the same time avoid the homunculus.
If we assume that there is a subconscious mind, and it's almost certain that there is one, then we avoid the homunculus.

All these decisions are made by 'you'. That 'you're' unaware of doing so doesn't change the fact that 'you' did.
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Old 24th February 2018, 10:07 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Kings Full View Post
If we assume that there is a subconscious mind, and it's almost certain that there is one, then we avoid the homunculus.

All these decisions are made by 'you'. That 'you're' unaware of doing so doesn't change the fact that 'you' did.
I don't think it goes away just because there is a subconscious. Somebody still has to figure out how to explain how neurons decide what is good stuff and what is junky stuff. This is because the subconscious is created by neurons.
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Old 24th February 2018, 10:47 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I saw a recent study which claims sleep is a way of for the brain to clear out the 'junk' (all the stuff filtered out by the consciousness as irrelevant). Hence the weirdness of dreams.
Hmmm, I've been getting the same junk, occasionally, in my dreams for some decades now. My brain isn't doing too well at clearing it out

I suspect (just suspect) it's more like a minor accident in a fireworks factory. Sleeping brain processing manages to trigger something nearby, via an obscure connection, that hauls the old stuff into the dreaming mind.

Anyhow - what we need around here is a definition of 'sleep', otherwise reduced animal activity that can easily be explained by behavioural/survival reasons gets lumped into the whole sleeping business. Sleep has only reliably been identified in mammals and birds, afaik - the rest is speculation based on the fact that it looks similar.
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Old 24th February 2018, 11:33 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I don't think it goes away just because there is a subconscious. Somebody still has to figure out how to explain how neurons decide what is good stuff and what is junky stuff. This is because the subconscious is created by neurons.
I think you've stumbled on one of the great mysteries of life.

How those neurons decide what is good stuff and what is junky is no different than those neurons deciding to have bacon and eggs instead of oatmeal. One is done on the subconscious level and one is a conscious decision. All done by those neurons.

How they do that is a mystery but they do and in the end it's all 'you'.
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Old 24th February 2018, 11:47 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post

Anyhow - what we need around here is a definition of 'sleep', otherwise reduced animal activity that can easily be explained by behavioural/survival reasons gets lumped into the whole sleeping business. Sleep has only reliably been identified in mammals and birds, afaik - the rest is speculation based on the fact that it looks similar.
I think it has been proven that other animals sleep. At least according to this Wiki page via unihemispheric slow-wave sleep. Interesting stuff.

While I get what you're saying I think it's important to remember that sleep can be different for different species while accomplishing the same thing.
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Old 24th February 2018, 12:56 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Kings Full View Post
I think it has been proven that other animals sleep. At least according to this Wiki page via unihemispheric slow-wave sleep. Interesting stuff.

While I get what you're saying I think it's important to remember that sleep can be different for different species while accomplishing the same thing.
It's still just mammals and birds though.
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Old 24th February 2018, 01:20 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
It's still just mammals and birds though.
Ah... missed that bit in your post. Sorry.
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Old 24th February 2018, 11:13 PM   #114
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Budgies may be able to sleep one hemisphere at a time...

Mine used to sleep on my finger*, and I'd often notice one eye open and one shut, even though the bird was apparently asleep.

I also noticed that occasionally one of its feet (not always the same foot) would go cold when that was going on, but have no idea if that was related.

*I realise how silly that sounds, but, in the evening, the bird would either sit on my shoulder with its head behind my ear, or it would settle onto a hand, if my arm was on the armrest of a chair, and sleep while sitting on one finger.
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Old 28th February 2018, 02:18 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I don't think dreams are reenactments in any way. I think they are mostly random neuron firings in order to change the structure of the memories, and the brain then constructs a narrative around what it experiences. Mostly a side effect of the process, I'd think.
I think you are right about the brain constructing a narrative, and I think it often happens after you begin to wake up. Sometimes I will wake up from a dream, think about it and encounter something so completely illogical that I just mentally say, "Wait, what?" and then forget the whole thing. Most dreams that I do remember (or build a narrative for) are pretty illogical anyway.
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Old 9th March 2018, 01:52 AM   #116
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Memory Consolidation Is Linked to Spindle-Mediated Information Processing during Sleep

Sleep spindles are short bursts (0.5-2sec) of neural activity during non-REM sleep and play a role in memory retention. They are present in all mammals that have been tested.

Highlights:
"We cued memory reactivation in sleep to investigate the functional role of spindles"
They asked subjects to memorize adjective/object and adjective/scene combinations, then played it back to them while in the right stage of sleep.

"Memory cueing bolstered retrieval performance the following day"

"Relative to control stimuli, memory cues evoked a surge in fast spindle activity"
Cueing the subjects lead to more spindles.

"Memory content could be reliably decoded during this spindle increase"
They could tell from the EEG data whether the subject was consolidating adjective/object or adjective/scene data.

Quote:
We devised a novel paradigm in which associative memories (adjective-object and adjective-scene pairs) were selectively cued during a post-learning nap, successfully stabilizing next-day retention relative to non-cued memories. First, we found that, compared to novel control adjectives, memory cues evoked an increase in fast spindles. Critically, during the time window of cue-induced spindle activity, the memory category linked to the verbal cue (object or scene) could be reliably decoded, with the fidelity of this decoding predicting the behavioral consolidation benefits of TMR. These results provide correlative evidence for an information processing role of sleep spindles in service of memory consolidation.
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Old 9th March 2018, 10:41 AM   #117
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Old 25th April 2019, 09:25 AM   #118
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New information on the relation of sleep, the hippocampus and the neocortex. Remembered this thread and thought some of you might find this interesting.

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2019-...-memories.html
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Old 27th April 2019, 11:04 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
Budgies may be able to sleep one hemisphere at a time...

Mine used to sleep on my finger*, and I'd often notice one eye open and one shut, even though the bird was apparently asleep.

I also noticed that occasionally one of its feet (not always the same foot) would go cold when that was going on, but have no idea if that was related...
Could be. Many (most?) birds have the ability to restrict blood flow to their legs to conserve body heat. Budgies were predominantly desert or grassland dwellers and probably evolved in that environment. Deserts can get very cold at night, so it shouldn’t be surprising that they would have this capacity to restrict blood flow to their legs. Especially when resting or roosting.
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Old 3rd May 2019, 11:53 PM   #120
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Very interesting.
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