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Old 9th November 2020, 05:17 PM   #1
Trebuchet
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Republican Party schism?

Between the establishment and Trumpers, of course. No poll or anything just idle speculation.
Trump will NEVER willingly let go his hold on the party. Will the party let go of him? Obviously many of his fervent supporters will not; will think him more important than the party. But the establishment may -- should -- begin to see him as harming their interests. As an embarrassment. Even, in some cases, as wrong!
In our primary election, multiple conservatives listed themselves as "Prefers Trump Republican Party." (Our primary system is weird.) Clearly to them, Trump is more important than party. But then there is The Lincoln Project, a bunch of Republicans opposed to Trump. Do they represent the establishment? I dunno.
George W Bush has congratulated Biden on his victory. Lindsey Graham, who 5 years ago said that nominating Trump would destroy the party, is still supporting Trump. Changing demographics do NOT support Trump. What is the Republican Party, the party I grew up in, to do?
If Trump sees the party establishment abandoning him, he'll fire them first. And certainly want to establish his own part. What then?

Again, random speculations. And I'm probably giving the R establishment more credit than it deserves. Thoughts?
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Old 9th November 2020, 06:54 PM   #2
The Great Zaganza
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The GOP can't split from Trump, it has to wait until Trump splits from them (probably via lawsuit).
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Old 9th November 2020, 09:45 PM   #3
portlandatheist
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Here is a list you might refer to to keep tally on those with an ounce of integrity and those that do not:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republ...election_fraud
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Old 9th November 2020, 09:54 PM   #4
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DOJ's top election crimes prosecutor quits in protest after Barr tells federal attorneys to probe unsupported allegations of voting irregularities CNN article
Quote:
Richard Pilger, director of the elections crimes branch in the Justice Department's Public Integrity Section, told colleagues in an email that the attorney general was issuing "an important new policy abrogating the forty-year-old Non-Interference Policy for ballot fraud investigations in the period prior to elections becoming certified and uncontested." Pilger also forwarded the memo to colleagues in his resignation letter.
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Old 9th November 2020, 10:26 PM   #5
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I hope so. Of course, we were saying there was a schism in the Greed Over People Party back in 2016, yet Republicans reliably fell in line and voted for Trump.

Trump threatened to blow up the party in his primary run (he also went to war with Fox News, boycotting one of their debates). In the end, I think most Republicans prefer presidential candidates who win.
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Old 9th November 2020, 11:07 PM   #6
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I'm not sure how Trumpism survives. It's hard to say what they want, it's an ideology based around complete loyalty to a guy who isn't in office anymore. It will be interesting to see how Republicans try and engage these voters without Trump.
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Old 9th November 2020, 11:15 PM   #7
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
I'm not sure how Trumpism survives. It's hard to say what they want, it's an ideology based around complete loyalty to a guy who isn't in office anymore. It will be interesting to see how Republicans try and engage these voters without Trump.
That is not dead which can eternal lie.

The GOP will just be waiting for the next Messiah to get them a win, however long that takes.
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Old 9th November 2020, 11:15 PM   #8
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It will schism. You can see the rips in the fabric already.

There will still be Legacy GOP, much like before. The Trumpists will be a reasonably large group initially. But over a fairly short period of time they will diminish.

There will be a large percentage deserters who suddenly realise they have joined the Proud Boys and other assorted Nazis, and that doesn't look so good on their job resumes as the economy recovers slowly and they want to go back to being accountants and stock brokers. They will go back to Legacy GOP...eventually.

Of the remainder, they will break down into bunches of in-fighting groups, each desperately intent only in destroying each other in pitched gun-battles, metaphorical and real, to gain tiny bits of turf. This could end in a Waco or Jonestown moment too.

Trump will join and abandon any of them at the drop of a toupee if it makes him a buck.
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Old 10th November 2020, 07:40 AM   #9
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At any point in the immediate to near-mid political future, the Republicans will be less fractured than the Democrats.

The Progressives and Centrists are at each other's throats far more than the Trumpers and Republicans.
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Old 10th November 2020, 07:48 AM   #10
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Even before Trump, the Republican party was pretty comfortable containing two very different factions. We all remember the "Tea Party Revolution" I hope. Sure, occasionally the wingnuts and the mainstream cons have inter party clashes, with primaries and grappling for party power, but they work together well enough to be a cohesive single party.

I don't really see any reason why the MAGA types won't be happy to coexist with McConnell controlled Republicans. It's especially easy when they are the party of opposition, as they don't have to govern. I don't expect the Republican party will make any efforts to purge the Trump elements.
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Old 10th November 2020, 07:52 AM   #11
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The Republican Party has no standards, it only has goals.

The moral problems with this are obvious I hope, but it makes them amazingly efficient politically.

Yeah we can scream at them about the hypocrisy of Evangelicals backing a guy who couldn't walk past a church without bursting into flames, but he got them three Justices under the age of 50 on the Supreme Court so... yeah I doubt their hypocrisy is keeping them up at night.

Meanwhile even if the Democrats squeak in a majority in the Senate they won't get anything done because the two main factions will act like Tag Teams when put in the Royal Rumble, ha wrestling reference.
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Old 10th November 2020, 10:27 AM   #12
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I'm waiting for a lot of things.

One is the Et Tu Mitch?
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Old 10th November 2020, 10:29 AM   #13
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Junior and Guilfoyle are working on taking over the RNC.
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Old 10th November 2020, 10:37 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Guilfoyle will provide sexual favors in return for power - or just if you let her.

https://www.businessinsider.com/kimb...0-11?r=DE&IR=T
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Old 10th November 2020, 10:38 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Guilfoyle will provide sexual favors in return for power - or just if you let her.
Or even if you consent or not.

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020...et-even-darker
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Old 10th November 2020, 11:38 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Again, random speculations. And I'm probably giving the R establishment more credit than it deserves. Thoughts?
Oh, for sure. The schism will look the same as it has for the past 4 years:

* 100% behind Trump because he's sent by God to be the American Leader for life

vs

* 100% behind Trump because voting for anybody else will hand power to the Democrats
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Old 10th November 2020, 03:44 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
This work as well as Fredo trying to take over the Corleone family. Even those close to Trump thnk that Donnie Jr is an idiot.
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Old 10th November 2020, 05:42 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
This work as well as Fredo trying to take over the Corleone family. Even those close to Trump thnk that Donnie Jr is an idiot.
Wow. Wonder what they think about Eric.
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Old 10th November 2020, 06:06 PM   #19
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Eric's latest tweet, asking Minnesotans to get out and vote 1 week late.

https://www.yahoo.com/huffpost/eric-...152415379.html
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Old 10th November 2020, 06:23 PM   #20
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The schism in the GOP goes right through the middle of the brains of Republicans.
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Old 10th November 2020, 08:23 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
Oh, for sure. The schism will look the same as it has for the past 4 years:

* 100% behind Trump because he's sent by God to be the American Leader for life

vs

* 100% behind Trump because voting for anybody else will hand power to the Democrats
Ouch. All too true.
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Old 10th November 2020, 09:25 PM   #22
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As much as I despise Trump and the Republicans who empower them, I think this "alll republicans are evil" is getting pretty bad..as bad as eomthing Trump would say..

I have a theory that, if the progressive wing of the Dems takes control, the centrist Dems will break away and join forces with the Centrist Republicans in a new party.
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Old 10th November 2020, 10:11 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
As much as I despise Trump and the Republicans who empower them, I think this "alll republicans are evil" is getting pretty bad..as bad as eomthing Trump would say..

I have a theory that, if the progressive wing of the Dems takes control, the centrist Dems will break away and join forces with the Centrist Republicans in a new party.
Everything Trump Touches Dies.
And the GOP let him touch everywhere, including the purse.
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Old 11th November 2020, 01:36 AM   #24
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You know a much as I hate Trump and despise the toadying of so much of the GOP, I think the death of the GOP would be a tragedy;i don't wnat to live in a one party nation.
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Old 11th November 2020, 05:04 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
You know a much as I hate Trump and despise the toadying of so much of the GOP, I think the death of the GOP would be a tragedy;i don't wnat to live in a one party nation.
What makes you think the GOP not dying won't result in a one party nation?
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Old 11th November 2020, 05:37 AM   #26
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It may very well be Democrats who split, with moderates joining moderate Republicans to form a new party. The GOP will be Trump's, and of his successors, for quite some time. That genie will not go back into a bottle so easily.

That's if Trump doesn't very well end up owning the country.
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Old 11th November 2020, 05:48 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
You know a much as I hate Trump and despise the toadying of so much of the GOP, I think the death of the GOP would be a tragedy;i don't wnat to live in a one party nation.
I am not too concerned with that. If the R's break up, the D's will do so soon after.
Both coalitions are held together by a fear of the other getting into a position of power. With that threat gone, there would be little reason for Progressive and Moderate Democrats to stay married.
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Old 11th November 2020, 06:31 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
You know a much as I hate Trump and despise the toadying of so much of the GOP, I think the death of the GOP would be a tragedy;i don't wnat to live in a one party nation.
I don't either if we're talking perfect solutions.

But a one party system is better than a "One (mostly) sane party and one party of absolute across the board racist, Conspiracy Theory psychopaths trying to install a dictator."

I want the buffet to have both tacos and hamburgers. But if the buffet has tacos and dog food getting rid of the dog food is still an improvement.

And again the Democrat Party isn't even waiting for the Republican Party to die before tearing itself in twain, so we've got another two party system waiting in the wings.
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Old 11th November 2020, 07:22 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
You know a much as I hate Trump and despise the toadying of so much of the GOP, I think the death of the GOP would be a tragedy;i don't wnat to live in a one party nation.
If republicans magically vanished, Bernie would one femtosecond later split from Democrats and start their own party (actually leftist, not what in USA passes for left). Already existing parties on fringe like libertarians would also try to fill vacuum, but they would almost certainly fail.

Of course, without any other changes in USA's political system, that would be simply renewed journey in direction of absolute rot, but that's another story.
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Old 11th November 2020, 07:41 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Between the establishment and Trumpers, of course. No poll or anything just idle speculation.
Trump will NEVER willingly let go his hold on the party. Will the party let go of him? Obviously many of his fervent supporters will not; will think him more important than the party. But the establishment may -- should -- begin to see him as harming their interests. As an embarrassment. Even, in some cases, as wrong!
In our primary election, multiple conservatives listed themselves as "Prefers Trump Republican Party." (Our primary system is weird.) Clearly to them, Trump is more important than party. But then there is The Lincoln Project, a bunch of Republicans opposed to Trump. Do they represent the establishment? I dunno.
George W Bush has congratulated Biden on his victory. Lindsey Graham, who 5 years ago said that nominating Trump would destroy the party, is still supporting Trump. Changing demographics do NOT support Trump. What is the Republican Party, the party I grew up in, to do?
If Trump sees the party establishment abandoning him, he'll fire them first. And certainly want to establish his own part. What then?

Again, random speculations. And I'm probably giving the R establishment more credit than it deserves. Thoughts?
I schism'd ( Is that a word?) when the idiots nominated Trump in the first place. In fact the only Republican nominee for POTUS I refused to vote for ever was Trump. Didn't vote for him the first time, and didn't the second time either. And after the embarrassing antics by Sen. James Inhofe (R-OK) throwing a snowball in congress while debating manmade global warming policy, I refused to vote for him either!
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Old 11th November 2020, 08:30 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
You know a much as I hate Trump and despise the toadying of so much of the GOP, I think the death of the GOP would be a tragedy;i don't wnat to live in a one party nation.
There's pretty much zero chance of that. If the Republican Party becomes irrelevant, the Dems will split. The crack between the left-wingers and the establishment is pretty big already. About all that is holding them together is that they have a common enemy.
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Old 11th November 2020, 08:37 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
You know a much as I hate Trump and despise the toadying of so much of the GOP, I think the death of the GOP would be a tragedy;i don't wnat to live in a one party nation.
As others have suggested, if the GOP were to vanish, the U.S. would not remain a one party state because either the Democrats would split into a moderate and a left wing party, or some new party would arise.

The other thing is that the GOP wouldn't have to be totally 'dead'... (That may just be exaggerated rhetoric). But 2 or 3 terms where thy are stuck in a minority position with no chance of power would render them impotent (for all intents and purposes 'dead'), but give them a chance to reform themselves (getting rid of the racism, limiting the influence of evangelicals, etc.), so that in the future they would again be viable.
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Old 11th November 2020, 08:40 AM   #33
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Boiled down to its most basic level I can't imagine a functioning society, regardless of the exact details of its political system and regardless of the exact state of the society it was in charge of, not having some degree of "Okay let's maintain the status quo" and "No we need a revolution" parties.

Change versus Status Quo is as basic a dichotomy as the human species can form.
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Old 11th November 2020, 08:49 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
You know a much as I hate Trump and despise the toadying of so much of the GOP, I think the death of the GOP would be a tragedy;i don't wnat to live in a one party nation.
Nor do I. But I'm pretty sure a majority of Republicans do.
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Old 11th November 2020, 09:22 AM   #35
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Both parties are constantly having issues with schisms; note the current hostilities between the progressive wing of the Democrats and the moderates.

Quote:
Rashida Tlaib isnít apologizing for wanting to yank money away from bad police departments. She has no second thoughts about her embrace of the Black Lives Matter movement, or for wanting to aggressively fight climate change.

House Democrats lost seats instead of expanding their majority, underperforming expectations across the board. And moderates have pounced on liberals like Tlaib, the Michigan congresswoman, accusing them of handing conservatives a set of slogans and policies to scare voters.
I'd be more concerned about the schisms within the GOP if Trumpism was some coherent set of policies. I don't see it that way. It's always been more about what it was opposed to than what it supported. That's one of the real surprises of the 2020 election; Trump almost managed to win by running an opposition campaign even though he was the incumbent.
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Old 11th November 2020, 09:24 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Boiled down to its most basic level I can't imagine a functioning society, regardless of the exact details of its political system and regardless of the exact state of the society it was in charge of, not having some degree of "Okay let's maintain the status quo" and "No we need a revolution" parties.

Change versus Status Quo is as basic a dichotomy as the human species can form.
Well put.
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Old 12th November 2020, 07:17 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
As much as I despise Trump and the Republicans who empower them, I think this "alll republicans are evil" is getting pretty bad..as bad as eomthing Trump would say..
Well just because they have given up on the rule of law and are going for a coup there is clearly no reason to state those facts because it gives you bad feelings.

I mean we are left with the best reason to vote republican is that you think you will be on the winning side of the increasingly wealth inequality.
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Old 12th November 2020, 07:26 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I don't either if we're talking perfect solutions.

But a one party system is better than a "One (mostly) sane party and one party of absolute across the board racist, Conspiracy Theory psychopaths trying to install a dictator."

I want the buffet to have both tacos and hamburgers. But if the buffet has tacos and dog food getting rid of the dog food is still an improvement.

And again the Democrat Party isn't even waiting for the Republican Party to die before tearing itself in twain, so we've got another two party system waiting in the wings.
Mmmm, tacos.
Mmmm, hamburgers.
Mmmm, wings..
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Old 12th November 2020, 11:39 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Boiled down to its most basic level I can't imagine a functioning society, regardless of the exact details of its political system and regardless of the exact state of the society it was in charge of, not having some degree of "Okay let's maintain the status quo" and "No we need a revolution" parties.

Change versus Status Quo is as basic a dichotomy as the human species can form.
I would say status quo, reform, revolution.
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Old 12th November 2020, 02:22 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I would say status quo, reform, revolution.
True. Maybe throw a "regress" in there.

I'd say, in general, in a two party system "Status Quo" and "Reform" would become the overall defaults, with "Regress" and "Revolt" being either fringe parties or fringe groups within the established parties.

(Please not I using "fringe" only in the demographic sense, not as some inherent moral judgement.)

And as I said I'd wager this is nearly universal, regardless of where Left to Right the society is.

Now the details of how this manifests can be different from situation to situation.
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