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Tags donald trump , fascism charges , Trump controversies

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Old 5th November 2020, 04:45 PM   #881
cosmicaug
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Polls declared him to be losing Florida by a lot but he won Florida by a lot.

He's talking about suppression.

He was winning by a lot but then mysterious things happened, etc..

Very unfair.

He predicted that.

Mail in voting.

Is too easy.

He won Pennsylvania by a lot. They don't want him to have observers.
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Old 5th November 2020, 04:45 PM   #882
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I bit ironic, given that Biden is leading AZ at the moment and the only hope for a Trump victory lies in counting every ballot and hoping it flips back. The armed mob seems to be hampering that effort.

Perhaps they are taking their cues from other states, where a violent stop of the counting of ballots would actually benefit Trump.
It won't benefit Trump, it'll just delay the inevitable.

How are the offices where ballots being counted not considered a "no protest zone?" They should rent private property (hotel ballrooms, etc) so that it isn't "public" so that they can cite people for tresspassing.

I guess this sort of thing hasn't really come up before. What a time to live in . . .
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Old 5th November 2020, 04:46 PM   #883
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He's won bigly, etc..
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Old 5th November 2020, 05:08 PM   #884
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
It won't benefit Trump, it'll just delay the inevitable.

How are the offices where ballots being counted not considered a "no protest zone?" They should rent private property (hotel ballrooms, etc) so that it isn't "public" so that they can cite people for tresspassing.

I guess this sort of thing hasn't really come up before. What a time to live in . . .
Yeah remember the days, all of four years ago, when the President of the USA believed in democracy?
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Old 5th November 2020, 05:23 PM   #885
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He's going to get people killed by means other than Covid, I mean.
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Old 5th November 2020, 05:27 PM   #886
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
It won't benefit Trump, it'll just delay the inevitable.

How are the offices where ballots being counted not considered a "no protest zone?" They should rent private property (hotel ballrooms, etc) so that it isn't "public" so that they can cite people for tresspassing.

I guess this sort of thing hasn't really come up before. What a time to live in . . .
I'm not positive but I think a person in charge of a public facility can trespass people from said facilities to the nearest sidewalk if they are being disruptive or have no official business.

ETA: And didn't AZ recently pass a law against harassment of public servants while in the performance of their duties?
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Old 5th November 2020, 05:49 PM   #887
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
And now Trump regime is trying to halt counting in Nevada as well, where Trump is losing. But they only want to not count improper ballots...
Just to poke at this as a reference again -

14 early warning signs of Fascism

Powerful and continuing nationalism - Check
Disdain for human rights - Check
Identification of enemies as a unifying cause - Check
Supremacy of the military - A lot of lip service and a lot of treating the military as, say, a gun. I'd give this a conditional check.
Rampant sexism - Check
Controlled mass media - The US, in general, has a problem with far too much of the media being in too few hands, but the Republican party has gone much further than that with their creation of the right-wing bubble. So check.
Obsession with national security - Conditional check. Gotta protect ourselves from all those foreigners and left-wingers, but when Trump just casually gives away top secret information and defense capabilities to hostile foreign powers, that's A-Okay.
Religion and government intertwined - Check
Corporate power protected - Check
Labor [sic] power suppressed - Check
Disdain for intellectuals & the arts - Check
Obsession with crime & punishment - Again, conditional check. "Lock her up" versus constant crime by Trump Admin. Enough said.
Rampant cronyism & corruption - Check
Fraudulent elections - Given how hard Trump's trying, check. It's worth noting that the Republican party is not at all monolithic on this front, but they've got a heck of a lot of "bad apples" to the point where it should probably be treated as a systemic problem in the party in most of the US.

So, 11 checks and 3 conditional checks for the party of Trump.

To apply to Democrats, incidentally, there's a conditional check for obsession with national security and crime and punishment in a different way - backlash to the brazen actions to break and worsen such. Controlled mass media is in a dangerous spot that needs addressed, but is not a check at this point. Some amount of cronyism and corruption is going to happen no matter the party, but it doesn't appear to be anywhere close to rampant in the Democratic Party.
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Old 5th November 2020, 06:03 PM   #888
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But but but ... he's not a fascist in his heart of hearts. I know that because, well, I can see into his heart. So chill out. When he craps on democracy, that doesn't count. When he eggs on lunatics who plotted to try Gov Whitmer in the woods ... So what, he's a real jokester. A POTUS is entitled to an opinion, just like everyone else. Plus, you wouldn't be able to call him a fascist if that was true. After all, there's no such thing as nascent fascism. It's purely a binary situation.

How am I doing Zig?
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Old 5th November 2020, 06:09 PM   #889
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Just because he's publicly asking for people to support a coup doesn't mean he's a fascist.
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.
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Old 5th November 2020, 06:20 PM   #890
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A case study of fascism being prevented by modern checks and balances. I don't really appreciate those checks and balances being stress tested to this degree though.
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Old 5th November 2020, 06:20 PM   #891
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By the way, slightly off topic but Bannon just said that maybe we should behead Christopher Wray & Anthony Fauci.


I mean, it's probably OK because he probably didn't really mean it.

https://www.mediamatters.org/steve-bannon/steve-bannon-and-his-co-host-discuss-beheading-dr-anthony-fauci-and-fbi-director

These are perfectly normal statements to make, if you really think about it.
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Old 5th November 2020, 06:40 PM   #892
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
A case study of fascism being prevented by modern checks and balances. I don't really appreciate those checks and balances being stress tested to this degree though.
That it is. It is also a how-to manual for someone smarter than Trump. The modern checks & balances working is not a predetermined, foregone conclusion. Trump is astonishingly incompetent and yet he managed to get this far.

This is a Prisoner's Dilemma.

Today, Republicans found themselves losing more than they gained by attaching themselves to Trump. Yesterday, it was the opposite.

That tipping point, where all the enabler players are defecting, may not ever happen the next time around.
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Old 5th November 2020, 07:21 PM   #893
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Republican workers believe that when their bosses do well, they do well.
In this trickle down way, the GOP is a worker party.
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Old 6th November 2020, 12:15 AM   #894
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Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
That it is. It is also a how-to manual for someone smarter than Trump. The modern checks & balances working is not a predetermined, foregone conclusion. Trump is astonishingly incompetent and yet he managed to get this far.

This is a Prisoner's Dilemma.

Today, Republicans found themselves losing more than they gained by attaching themselves to Trump. Yesterday, it was the opposite.

That tipping point, where all the enabler players are defecting, may not ever happen the next time around.
Let's not forget all of the checks and balances that failed
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Old 6th November 2020, 11:43 AM   #895
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Republican workers believe that when their bosses do well, they do well.
In this trickle down way, the GOP is a worker party.
Yes, it's hierarchy that they base their opinions on. If the leader says they're doing well, they believe it.
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.
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Old 6th November 2020, 12:19 PM   #896
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Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
A case study of fascism being prevented by modern checks and balances. I don't really appreciate those checks and balances being stress tested to this degree though.
That it is. It is also a how-to manual for someone smarter than Trump. The modern checks & balances working is not a predetermined, foregone conclusion. Trump is astonishingly incompetent and yet he managed to get this far.

This is a Prisoner's Dilemma.

Today, Republicans found themselves losing more than they gained by attaching themselves to Trump. Yesterday, it was the opposite.

That tipping point, where all the enabler players are defecting, may not ever happen the next time around.
Someone doing a better job than me in expressing this concern:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/11/trump-proved-authoritarians-can-get-elected-america/617023/
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Old 8th November 2020, 02:34 AM   #897
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Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
Makes for rather depressingly grim reading. Democracy has its work cut out for it. No slacking off.
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Old 8th November 2020, 05:36 AM   #898
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Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
Since rational argument or even abundant evidence are hardly effective at the moment, the above is why I strongly advocate for buying many of his voters off. That's right, pork. Useful pork, such as clean energy investments. Pork because the money should go into coal and fracking districts, not where it might be more productive. I also advocate a strong emphasis on farm policy, not politicized, in which the price of a bushel of grain becomes a frequent topic, along with agrobusiness friendly comments added to family-farm support initiatives, all tied to issues around global warming (and, OMG, rapid depletion of the insect population, topsoil loss, etc).

Get these people on the global warming bandwagon, soonest, and you can rip a big chunk off of Trump's sect, leaving Appalachia and the Rockies as his strongholds. Uh, this is how Republicans got the former union vote in Blue states, at least in terms of rhetoric. C'mon, Dems, put up a freaking fight with balls this time.

Yes, pork. If it also does actual good as well as save democracy, why not?
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Old 9th November 2020, 01:51 AM   #899
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2020 certainly is the oddest year ever...especially when the German and Italian governments are calling to congratulate us on the end of fascism.
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Old 10th November 2020, 11:36 AM   #900
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From Twitter

Pompeo just now: “There will be a smooth transition to a second Trump administration."

Fascists
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Old 10th November 2020, 12:05 PM   #901
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Rethuglicans gonna rethuglican.
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Old 10th November 2020, 01:34 PM   #902
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We have a coup d'etat in progress. It's dumb as hell & doomed to fail* but it's an attempted coup, nonetheless.


* I mean, if the Four Seasons Total Landscaping crew can actually pull it off, I don't know what it says about the USA but it's not good.
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Old 11th November 2020, 12:08 PM   #903
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Florida, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Michigan, Iowa, Arizona, and Ohio all have Republican state level legislatures. Many of them also have Republican governers.

The state level legislature is who decides who the Electoral Voters are. The Supreme Court just re-inforced the ruling that states retain control of how they elect and police their electors.

Trump straight up telling all, most, or even some of those states "Just get me electors who are going to keep me in office" is not crazy and as I already pointed out wouldn't even be illegal or unconstitutional.

And as noted he doesn't have to win. Just lose with enough margin as to declare the election "contested" or "rigged."
So you think 7 states have totally corrupted governments and a population that won't scream bloody murder if their state government tries to override the election results?
I think the problem with your optimism (an optimism I want to share —and do, intermittently, when I find myself seeing what I want to see) is that your presuppositions are likely flawed.

These presuppositions may be wrong:
  • Republican politicians are acting in good faith.
  • Republicans (who might be writing editorials, saying that you should use their words against them, etc.) will follow the law, traditions, norms and what they have previously said that they were going to do even when it does not politically benefit them.
  • Republicans are motivated by what voters at large think.
  • Republicans have drawn certain lessons from the Trump years but not other lessons.

The main one that's a problem is the first one. Even that one is not necessarily problematic if there's a perception that there will be bad consequences to not be seen as acting in good faith: if you are punished when you act in bad faith you won't often act in bad faith (I would maintain, however, that there are no negative consequences that would befall one as a result from being seen as someone who is acting in bad faith).

However, Republicans who are acting like Trump has won the election (or like there's any doubt about Trump's loss) are not acting in good faith.

Republicans can say a thing and change their mind later (even if they say that they won't). Republicans can do this even after writing editorial statements about it or otherwise being very public about the thing. Republicans may choose to follow state law or they may choose to ask forgiveness later (upon a judicial review which could happen too late to change the "facts on the ground") rather than permission, etc..

Republicans know that at least 60-100 million people are certain that this was a stolen election. This means a vocal (and relatively radicalizable) segment of the population that will mostly believe that the electoral college results definitively work out for Trump and that, if fraudulent votes are not counted, the margin for Trump is, at a very minimum, reversed (from the current ~5 million margin favoring Biden). This segment of the population has been groomed to believe this for the entirety of the Trump administration and it is something that they want to believe. When Republicans are looking at a population that might "scream bloody murder" they are looking at those people and consider that egging them on is critical to securing their continuing support. Encouraging the false belief that fuels this is considered a good thing, not a bad thing. The people who have not voted for them, on the other hand, are "enemies" so if they start screaming, it doesn't matter (except inasmuch as it eggs on the other side so it's also kind of a good thing).

Sure, the lessons from the Trump years could be that democracy is tenuous and cannot be taken for granted (it can happen here) and that we must work to protect it. However, other lessons can be that if we (Republicans) do not back Trump our base will reject us, that we cannot win if too many people vote, that we cannot win if certain kinds of people vote, that we cannot win if all the votes are counted, and, most importantly, that a certain style of politics (as exemplified by Trump) is extremely effective, etc..

We have a bunch of Republican politicians standing by at this time. They are not standing by because they are trying to figure out the right thing to do. They are standing by because they see political benefits for themselves in doing so. Rather than a group of people trying to do what is right, what we are currently dealing with is a game theory scenario: an extended version of the Prisoner's DilemmaWP. Unlike the handful of Republicans who have acknowledged Biden's results (what do we have right now, 4 senators & 1 representative?), most will only choose to step off from the Trump train (and risk getting left behind) if they think that all the other Republicans are also ready to to step off with them. Until then, they will continue to try to accrue the perceived benefits of supporting Trump (or just standing by). If these benefits ultimately end up including the illegitimate installation of a Republican president for another four years, they are all OK with that.
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Old 11th November 2020, 02:24 PM   #904
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Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
I think the problem with your optimism (an optimism I want to share —and do, intermittently, when I find myself seeing what I want to see) is that your presuppositions are likely flawed.

These presuppositions may be wrong:
  • Republican politicians are acting in good faith.
  • Republicans (who might be writing editorials, saying that you should use their words against them, etc.) will follow the law, traditions, norms and what they have previously said that they were going to do even when it does not politically benefit them.
  • Republicans are motivated by what voters at large think.
  • Republicans have drawn certain lessons from the Trump years but not other lessons.

The main one that's a problem is the first one. Even that one is not necessarily problematic if there's a perception that there will be bad consequences to not be seen as acting in good faith: if you are punished when you act in bad faith you won't often act in bad faith (I would maintain, however, that there are no negative consequences that would befall one as a result from being seen as someone who is acting in bad faith).

[snipped for space].
I've said this before and I'll say it again not all state legislators/governors are Trump cultists like they are in the federal Congress. There are a few governors who sing Trump's praises, but honestly, the states are playing on a different playground.

OTOH, Trump's restructuring the pentagon, and soon the FBI with loyalists is troubling. Seems to me he's looking at who might order him escorted from the WH premises.
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Old 18th November 2020, 11:21 PM   #905
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The right-wing disinformation about the legitimacy of the election is straight out of the dictator-playbook (*cough*Putin*cough*).
Republicans will sabotage Biden any way they can, especially when it comes to Covid and the economy, so that on 2024 they can run on a "see?!? Democracy doesn't work!!" message;
2020 was a test for US democracy, but 2024 will be the true watershed moment.
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Old 19th November 2020, 05:06 AM   #906
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
The right-wing disinformation about the legitimacy of the election is straight out of the dictator-playbook (*cough*Putin*cough*).
Republicans will sabotage Biden any way they can, especially when it comes to Covid and the economy, so that on 2024 they can run on a "see?!? Democracy doesn't work!!" message;
2020 was a test for US democracy, but 2024 will be the true watershed moment.
Indeed. The game plan hasn't changed since the Civil Rights Act and, God help us, a modest welfare state became the enemy of all that is good and wealthy. Why, the next thing you know, child laborers will not have to bring their own bucket of coal!?! Hell on Earth!

Only the willingness to "do whatever it takes" has changed. Promise, and never deliver, except to the 10% who own 79% of all wealth. Meanwhile, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha with lie, lie, lie.
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Old 20th November 2020, 09:27 PM   #907
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A concise definition of Trumpism:

Neo-fascist personality cult lead by President Donald Trump that subsumed the Republican Party.
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Old 21st November 2020, 03:38 AM   #908
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I imagine there were plenty of people in Germany who concluded they were safe from the prospect of fascist takeover after the Beerhall Putsch turned out to be a badly organized mess that failed to gather enough support...
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Old 21st November 2020, 08:33 AM   #909
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More information is coming out about the brown shirts in Michigan who Trump supported...

Quote:
Disturbing new details in alleged plot to kidnap Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer

The militia group accused of planning to kidnap Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer previously discussed taking over the state Capitol building and staging a weeklong series of televised executions of public officials, authorities said.
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Old 21st November 2020, 08:55 AM   #910
Darat
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
More information is coming out about the brown shirts in Michigan who Trump supported...
Oh well, boys will boys, just a bit of high jinks!


But have to balance it with what I heard: some communist traitor to the country said some of Trump’s supporters are deplorable! Typical left wing hatred, where’s their tolerance now!
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Last edited by Darat; 21st November 2020 at 08:57 AM. Reason: Words
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