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Tags 2020 elections , donald trump , election conspiracies , Trump controversies , Trump supporters

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Old 21st November 2020, 05:26 PM   #681
cosmicaug
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
You have an inflated notion of what the military's role is in politics. They'll not unilaterally get involved or take any action, if the oaths taken by its members is adhered to.
Yes, that's the problem with that whole question what about the military backing for a coup. It's irrelevant. It won't happen and that's not the path for a coup. However, what the military will also no do is do anything to stop a coup.
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Old 21st November 2020, 05:29 PM   #682
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
Anyway, as for the design of the American government in general, I think there are protections built in, even for a rogue jackass like Trump. I think that the Executive is not sufficient in itself to seize control of the country. They need the election, and it seems as if they can't overturn it.
Nonsense! We have an evildoer who oozes incompetence. We have >100000 Americans dead due to negligent homicide and a crashed economy. We have a Republican party that will go along with him if it seems like that's what it takes to keep power but who actually don't really like him that much. We have 306 electoral votes against and 6 million more Americans voting against him than for him.

Make any of it more favorable to the wannabe autocrat and what we have seen is showing us that our so called protections will not hold.
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Old 21st November 2020, 05:33 PM   #683
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
We might be able to sell off the wall, piece by piece, to get some money back.
What has been built when it comes to an actual barriers in a place where none existed before? Isn't it something like 10 miles? Hasn't most of the construction been replacement, repair or maintenance of already built barriers?
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Old 21st November 2020, 06:18 PM   #684
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Perhaps - but only if she's hot.

It's a well-known fact that woman are attracted to rapey men, which is why more of them voted for Trump than Hillary. To counter that the GOP needs someone who will attract more white males (the demographic that was most turned off by Trump). She should also be Black, Latino or Asian, since those are the demographics that are leaning more conservative these days (and their racism make them less likely to support outsiders). I would totally vote for an Asian hottie!
Would half south-Asian work for you? Or do you need full south-Asian?
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Old 21st November 2020, 08:36 PM   #685
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It didn't stop him voting for Barrett. Doesn't mean it didn't turn some voters off. Right now I'd love to see a Lincoln Project like ad for the 2 Senate seats in Georgia: Vote for 2 Senators that aren't in the cult.

It also might make for some ads in 2022.

Did it disgust you or not?
I wonder about this. Do we have any evidence that the Lincoln Project were successful in any way? In particular whether the influence they had was in any way matching the amount of money they spent.

My understanding is that they claim to represent Republicans fed up with the party under Trump, but did they actually manage to sway any Republicans?
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Old 21st November 2020, 11:01 PM   #686
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Interesting comment on MSNBC today, Graham's calls to the four states was a federal offense, interfering with election results. Could be the State Republicans knew they would not be legally protected if they had tampered with legitimate votes and/or falsely certified election results. The guys from MI who took Trump up on a free trip and tour of the WH may very well have had legit legal advisors as opposed to the federal GOP legislators who have Barr to rely on.

In 60 days there will be a new AG, not one deep up Trump's ass. Graham had better hope the new AG doesn't come after him.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 03:22 AM   #687
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Oh, Trump's behaviour may have backfired for the GOP. Distrust in the election results has led to Trump supporters vowing to "destroy" the GOP for going along with the narrative that Biden won, calling prominent Republican politicians "traitors", and vowing to boycott the run-off elections in Georgia

So the GOP may have lost Trump's base (or, at least, that portion of it that attends protests and/or uses Parler), and in doing so lost themselves the Senate.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 03:56 AM   #688
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Oh, Trump's behaviour may have backfired for the GOP. Distrust in the election results has led to Trump supporters vowing to "destroy" the GOP for going along with the narrative that Biden won, calling prominent Republican politicians "traitors", and vowing to boycott the run-off elections in Georgia

So the GOP may have lost Trump's base (or, at least, that portion of it that attends protests and/or uses Parler), and in doing so lost themselves the Senate.
I dunno. I’ll believe it when I see it.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 04:00 AM   #689
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I dunno. I’ll believe it when I see it.
Indeed. Republicans often fall in line. In 2016, the Republican Party was supposed to be fragmented, but they held their nose and voted for Trump. That said, I hope these supporters are true to their word.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 04:12 AM   #690
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Fall in line with who, though? The problem with a cult of personality is that it's the personality that's important, not the rest of the cult.

I mean, I'm not claiming it will happen, but it's definitely the noises that are being made in some of the more extreme ends of the fandom.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 04:58 AM   #691
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Indeed. Republicans often fall in line. In 2016, the Republican Party was supposed to be fragmented, but they held their nose and voted for Trump. That said, I hope these supporters are true to their word.
If you can't trust a Trump supporter....
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Old 22nd November 2020, 05:55 AM   #692
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I wonder about this. Do we have any evidence that the Lincoln Project were successful in any way? In particular whether the influence they had was in any way matching the amount of money they spent.

My understanding is that they claim to represent Republicans fed up with the party under Trump, but did they actually manage to sway any Republicans?
I subscribe to their podcast.

Their ads were quite targeted to swing states and more narrowly to swing districts. To hear them tell it, it was successful. But hard core “evidence” of that might be difficult for them to produce. The majority of voters had their minds made up before their ads ran, but it’s not unreasonable to think well crafted ads may have resonated with a few wavering Republicans, and a tiny percentage swing there could have mattered.

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Old 22nd November 2020, 06:13 AM   #693
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
I subscribe to their podcast.

Their ads were quite targeted to swing states and more narrowly to swing districts. To hear them tell it, it was successful. But hard core “evidence” of that might be difficult for them to produce. The majority of voters had their minds made up before their ads ran, but it’s not unreasonable to think well crafted ads may have resonated with a few wavering Republicans, and a tiny percentage swing there could have mattered.
I don't find any value in a political campaigner telling me their campaigns are successful. If they weren't they get no funding, so clearly it's in their interest to say they are effective, but their word is meaningless without any objective stats.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 06:17 AM   #694
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Indeed. Republicans often fall in line. In 2016, the Republican Party was supposed to be fragmented, but they held their nose and voted for Trump. That said, I hope these supporters are true to their word.
I think many thought they could pretty much control him once he was elected. I doubt many of them realised how unwell he was and how stupid and willfully ignorant he is.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 06:23 AM   #695
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I think many thought they could pretty much control him once he was elected. I doubt many of them realised how unwell he was and how stupid and willfully ignorant he is.
If you're talking about 2016, I think most of them believed he would never be elected so they could just go back to "normal" candidates. The genie that they let out of the bottle is that the Sarah Palin-Donald Trump wing of the party is bigger and more appealing than they realized. This came as a big shock to the non-lunatic fringe of the party.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 22nd November 2020, 07:53 AM   #696
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BREAKING: Putin is refusing to name Biden as POTUS Elect.

United States of America Russia.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 08:10 AM   #697
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
BREAKING: Putin is refusing to name Biden as POTUS Elect.

United States of America Russia.
Well it would be if it mattered a damn who Putin refuses to name as "POTUS elect".
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 22nd November 2020, 08:12 AM   #698
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Democrats think the Republicans are going to start infighting and eating their own young because that's why they always do.

The Republican goal is power, not internal consistency of standards. That's why the Democrat strategy of going "Well everything is so broken now the Republicans are going to stop being so cohesive is going to happen.... no.... no wait now... any minute now... yep any minute now" never actually comes true.

Trump is not going to guilt or break the GOP.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 08:17 AM   #699
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post

Did it disgust you or not?
The Graham move?

Honestly and sadly, the last four years raised my bar for 'getting disgusted'. So many unthinkable thinks are getting normalized.
I am getting used to stuff, I am getting used to see more people acting more crazy and more brazen.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 08:17 AM   #700
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Democrats think the Republicans are going to start infighting and eating their own young because that's why they always do.

The Republican goal is power, not internal consistency of standards.
Yeah, there's this idea that there are the smiley nice respectable Republicans (Marco Rubio, Susan Collins, Mitt Romney and frankly John McCain), and then there are the craazy uncle Republicans (Donald Trump, Rudy Guiliani, Mitch McConnell and Lindsay Graham, and Ted Cruz and Chris Christie). Look at how they all bickered and insulted each other and then came together anyway. The smiley ones just made their silly simpering smiles and said, "Sure, my uncle's totally crazy and I'm not on board, but hey, he's my uncle so whaddayagonnado?"
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 22nd November 2020, 08:44 AM   #701
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Yeah, there's this idea that there are the smiley nice respectable Republicans (Marco Rubio, Susan Collins, Mitt Romney and frankly John McCain), and then there are the craazy uncle Republicans (Donald Trump, Rudy Guiliani, Mitch McConnell and Lindsay Graham, and Ted Cruz and Chris Christie). Look at how they all bickered and insulted each other and then came together anyway. The smiley ones just made their silly simpering smiles and said, "Sure, my uncle's totally crazy and I'm not on board, but hey, he's my uncle so whaddayagonnado?"
Hey Susan Collins has been concerned quite a few times, what more could she have done?
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Old 22nd November 2020, 09:03 AM   #702
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Yeah, there's this idea that there are the smiley nice respectable Republicans (Marco Rubio, Susan Collins, Mitt Romney and frankly John McCain), and then there are the craazy uncle Republicans (Donald Trump, Rudy Guiliani, Mitch McConnell and Lindsay Graham, and Ted Cruz and Chris Christie). Look at how they all bickered and insulted each other and then came together anyway. The smiley ones just made their silly simpering smiles and said, "Sure, my uncle's totally crazy and I'm not on board, but hey, he's my uncle so whaddayagonnado?"
Yeah, but who won when they wanted something?

Certainly not Rubio.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 09:12 AM   #703
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Yeah, but who won when they wanted something?

Certainly not Rubio.
Republicans understand (right or wrong, better or worse) that being a toady, tiny cog in a big machine, yes man in a party in power is better than being the golden boy in a party without power.

Or do we need to play another rousing game of "Count the people on SCOTUS?"
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Old 22nd November 2020, 10:57 AM   #704
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I think many thought they could pretty much control him once he was elected. I doubt many of them realised how unwell he was and how stupid and willfully ignorant he is.
They've controlled him fine where it mattered most, judicial nominations. And gotten environmental and other regulatory rollbacks they wanted.

Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Yeah, there's this idea that there are the smiley nice respectable Republicans (Marco Rubio, Susan Collins, Mitt Romney and frankly John McCain), and then there are the craazy uncle Republicans (Donald Trump, Rudy Guiliani, Mitch McConnell and Lindsay Graham, and Ted Cruz and Chris Christie). Look at how they all bickered and insulted each other and then came together anyway. The smiley ones just made their silly simpering smiles and said, "Sure, my uncle's totally crazy and I'm not on board, but hey, he's my uncle so whaddayagonnado?"
About five years ago, Graham said that nominating Trump would destroy the Republican Party. He may yet be proved right about that.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 11:12 AM   #705
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We've been trying to destroy the Republican Party by proven they are hypocrites for a while now. Kind of think if it was going to work it would have already.

The Republican base accepts the "Well as long as we win in the end, don't hate the player, hate the game" mentality.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 12:32 PM   #706
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
We've been trying to destroy the Republican Party by proven they are hypocrites for a while now. Kind of think if it was going to work it would have already.

The Republican base accepts the "Well as long as we win in the end, don't hate the player, hate the game" mentality.
Too many people believe that the Republican Party is the only thing standing in the way of turning the US into an extreme socialist-communist state. They're quite mistaken about that, but that conviction leads them to forgive almost anything.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 12:37 PM   #707
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I just read this Twitter thread and each entry I've read has been clever and priceless.
Trump's Legal Team nicknames

Sorry if you can't access Twitter.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 02:46 PM   #708
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
Too many people believe that the Republican Party is the only thing standing in the way of turning the US into an extreme socialist-communist state. They're quite mistaken about that, but that conviction leads them to forgive almost anything.
The only things I can think of that they won’t forgive are homosexuality, Muslimness, and closing factories that make high-end military hardware.

We’ll soon find out if emoluments ends up on the forgivable list or the unforgivable list.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 03:30 PM   #709
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
Too many people believe that the Republican Party is the only thing standing in the way of turning the US into an extreme socialist-communist state. They're quite mistaken about that, but that conviction leads them to forgive almost anything.
It what happens when you mix a two-party system, rampant bothsideism, and cause purity into one big pot and cook it in a post-fact world.

The Right has embraced extreme, even violent and fascist, far-Right rhetoric largely (although obviously not completely) out of the stupid, misguided idea that it has to "protect" some concept of "real America" from going too far to the Left.

The problems with this are obvious, but have all the possible ways of explaining it to people have been hunted down and destroyed in the quest to destroy all ways of actually effectively processing information to get us to the post-fact world that people just need to live in now.

1. As I keep screaming at a lot of people the "Left to Right" political scale isn't... like a thing that really exists. It's not some natural force of the universe like the poles of a magnetic or the charge of a battery terminal. You don't have to, indeed can't, "correct" for an overbalance because, again, IT'S NOT A REAL SCALE.

2. As people who live outside the US can't help but remind us at every single possibility, the US is skewed far enough to the Left that even if point 1 wasn't true America getting "Too Left" isn't a problem we're going to have to worry about for a while.

3. Even if points 1 and 2 weren't true the even bigger problem is that no concept is neutral anymore. As soon as any idea gets into the public discourse it is either claimed by or assigned to one of the two "sides" and they have to defend it and answer for it.

And as much as the fanboys, and again I use that term very deliberately, for the two political dynasties, another term I use deliberately, in America like to pretend otherwise the Left/Right divide in America is massively arbitrary at times, with which side has to adopt which idea based more on tone and personality than actual political thought processes.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 03:31 PM   #710
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Fall in line with who, though? The problem with a cult of personality is that it's the personality that's important, not the rest of the cult.

I mean, I'm not claiming it will happen, but it's definitely the noises that are being made in some of the more extreme ends of the fandom.
Trump himself attacks Republicans that don't support him so maybe we shouldn't be surprised.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 03:53 PM   #711
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
I just read this Twitter thread and each entry I've read has been clever and priceless.
Trump's Legal Team nicknames

Sorry if you can't access Twitter.
There are so many.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 04:03 PM   #712
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Is he winning yet?
I.... what.... *shakes my head*

HE ALREADY WON!

He was.... the PRESIDENT. That's pretty big on the "He Won" scale.

His brand of insanity is a LOT more acceptable and mainstream because of the last four years

What are you, Thermal, and Emily Cat trying to prove here?

Is what he's done NOT ******* ENOUGH?

And again... he's still there. He's still not admitting defeat. His cult of personality followers are still there and will consider him their rightful ruler when all of this is said and done. At best he's only going to lose on what he sees as a technicality.

Yes, there's a breaking point to all of this but what's the superior attitude where you're acting like we've determined what it is already?

Someone, please explain to me "Oh the fascist psychopath only got one term in the highest office in the land and was only able to nominate 3 Supreme Court justices" attitude we're getting here?
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Old 22nd November 2020, 05:13 PM   #713
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I.... what.... *shakes my head*

HE ALREADY WON!

He was.... the PRESIDENT. That's pretty big on the "He Won" scale.

His brand of insanity is a LOT more acceptable and mainstream because of the last four years

What are you, Thermal, and Emily Cat trying to prove here?

Is what he's done NOT ******* ENOUGH?

And again... he's still there. He's still not admitting defeat. His cult of personality followers are still there and will consider him their rightful ruler when all of this is said and done. At best he's only going to lose on what he sees as a technicality.

Yes, there's a breaking point to all of this but what's the superior attitude where you're acting like we've determined what it is already?

Someone, please explain to me "Oh the fascist psychopath only got one term in the highest office in the land and was only able to nominate 3 Supreme Court justices" attitude we're getting here?
I think the GOP probably see no downsides to this. In a way, they would be fine with Trump just shuffling off and making it easier on them not having to rationalize away his nonsense day after day, but then they watch him trying to push his bulldozer out of a ditch, a ridiculous thing to try and think, hey, we may as well just see if he can do it, and put their shoulders to the wheel anyway. The worst that can happen is that it stays in the ditch but there are apparently ZERO negative consequences to violating all accepted norms in an election for them so why not keep violating them. If nothing else it only helps to highlight the stress points that they will be able to exploit later when a more competent demagogue emerges. Maybe someone with an eyepatch.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 05:19 PM   #714
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I.... what.... *shakes my head*

HE ALREADY WON!

He was.... the PRESIDENT. That's pretty big on the "He Won" scale.

His brand of insanity is a LOT more acceptable and mainstream because of the last four years

What are you, Thermal, and Emily Cat trying to prove here?

Is what he's done NOT ******* ENOUGH?

And again... he's still there. He's still not admitting defeat. His cult of personality followers are still there and will consider him their rightful ruler when all of this is said and done. At best he's only going to lose on what he sees as a technicality.

Yes, there's a breaking point to all of this but what's the superior attitude where you're acting like we've determined what it is already?

Someone, please explain to me "Oh the fascist psychopath only got one term in the highest office in the land and was only able to nominate 3 Supreme Court justices" attitude we're getting here?
That's all well and 'bad' but it's a moved goalpost if it's answering my post.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 05:21 PM   #715
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I love how all three of "Bothsiders" have learned the name of one and exactly one Logical Fallacy that they obviously don't understand but think just saying the name of it means they win.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 05:30 PM   #716
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Is he winning yet?
No. Who on this forum (besides the fascist ilk) ever claimed he was?
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Old 22nd November 2020, 05:33 PM   #717
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
No. Who on this forum (besides the fascist ilk) ever claimed he was?
JoeMorgue above.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 05:37 PM   #718
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
JoeMorgue above.
We're referring to the soft (so far) coup Trump is attempting, correct? Where did JM claim Trump was winning that?
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Old 22nd November 2020, 06:01 PM   #719
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
We're referring to the soft (so far) coup Trump is attempting, correct? Where did JM claim Trump was winning that?
I think he may have been talking about the fact that Trump has just been pulling a con on everyone and he actually won (because it doesn't get much more winning than becoming president —whether or not you were even trying).

Edited to add: But I shouldn't speak for others so just ignore me.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 06:41 PM   #720
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
They've controlled him fine where it mattered most, judicial nominations. And gotten environmental and other regulatory rollbacks they wanted.
Still a couple of months left. Watch, he'll command the Senate to increase the size of the Supreme Court and then nominate himself for the vacancy.

Except I can't quite see that unless he can be Chief Justice and I don't see how that works.

ETA: I get it. Create a Hydrosonic Supreme Court with just him. Like the SJC but with hookers.

Quote:
About five years ago, Graham said that nominating Trump would destroy the Republican Party. He may yet be proved right about that.
Destroyed him, didn't it? Yeah, I know, not as a politician, but as a man.

Last edited by phiwum; 22nd November 2020 at 06:43 PM.
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