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Old 5th November 2020, 02:51 AM   #41
The Don
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Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
Well they certainly need to appeal to a wider audience. The turnout was amazing but Trump exceeded it. Where else do they get more voters except by peeling them off of the GOP.

I'd probably stop pushing gun control and appeal to gun owners. Conservationist gun owners, gun owners that want better healthcare, and an increasing amount of minority gun owners are going to have to make choices then.
....and yet 70% of people claim to want tighter restrictions on firearms so maybe it's not as simple as that.
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Old 5th November 2020, 04:39 AM   #42
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You want some of that 30% in the red counties in the swing states. The places where they need votes.
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Old 5th November 2020, 04:41 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
And that, barring a whole lot of Americans getting their heads out of their asses, is what the Dems will have to do to make headway against the tidal wave of ********. Start lying just as much to these ******* morons. Create as many ******** "scandals" as they can, and push these scandals on every platform they can co-opt.

**** rationality, basically.
Honestly, I don't think sinking to their level accomplishes anything, rather the opposite. Yeah, it sucks to have to play fair when the other team never does, but all I see from Democrats lying and inventing scandals and conspiracy theories is even more polarisation, even more mistrust of the media, and probably even more lying from the Republicans.
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Old 5th November 2020, 05:31 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Nope, the fact you don't is exactly the point, and I mentioned two of the demographics that shouldn't be going to Trump - Latinos and black men.

I don't see why it's impossible to have a candidate or message that appeals to those groups.
It has already been pointed out to you that Latinos and black men are not, in fact, going to Trump. They are overwhelmingly going to Biden.
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Old 5th November 2020, 05:50 AM   #45
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I'm not sure if there is such a thing the "Latino vote" in the first place. Latinos are a far more diverse group than African-Americans, as far as I know.

The myth of the Latino vote
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Old 5th November 2020, 06:11 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
....and yet 70% of people claim to want tighter restrictions on firearms so maybe it's not as simple as that.
Worth note - these "tighter restrictions" are typically along the lines of "you can't own a gun if your a serial violent spousal abuser" and the like. My guess is you could still get bans for "assault weapons" and "high capacity magazines, and likely "semi-automatic weapons" until you tell people the last one actually means.

Problem is two fold: First, gun nuts are convinced that any restrictions will lead to federal agents marching from house to house and confiscating any gun at all, second amendment, don't tread on me, please oppress the blacks instead, blah blah blah.

Second, as a lot of us have been saying, is that anyone who going off emotions and tradition could just go and listen to what politicians *say* they're going to do, and drop the whole "Politicians never do what they say they will" nonsense, because they always at least try to push their agenda forward. Or visit their website, listen to a rally or two, that sort of thing. In reality, we have a lot of people who spent years hating Obamacare, but demanding that the PPACA be left alone Politicians aren't supposed to "blame the voters", but I'm not running for anything, so I can, and that's exactly what I'm doing here. When you're sitting around saying "Trump's going to protect people with pre-existing conditions, he wouldn't lie, he's a businessman" in 2020, or that Biden's senile and the executive branch will be run by that socialist Kamala Harris...you're just ignorant.

(Yes, dems are often like this as well, but it's not the subject at hand in this thread)

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
Honestly, I don't think sinking to their level accomplishes anything, rather the opposite. Yeah, it sucks to have to play fair when the other team never does, but all I see from Democrats lying and inventing scandals and conspiracy theories is even more polarisation, even more mistrust of the media, and probably even more lying from the Republicans.
You also risk turning other reliable voters off incredibly badly. I'm not saying to play by invented "rules" when legislating, but when it's time to run for office, be honest about what you want to do, make the dems look as good as possible, and the GOP as crappy as possible.

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Old 5th November 2020, 06:28 AM   #47
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The gun control example is interesting because it reveals that corporate democrats aren't averse to taking strong and polarizing stances, so long as it doesn't alienate their corporate masters.

There is increasing general demand for universal healthcare in this country, poll after poll shows that a healthy majority of Americans support some form of national, universal program. Yet neither of our leading two parties are willing to adopt a platform that acknowledges this increasingly popular mandate.

Florida, conservative run backwater that it is, just approved a $15 minimum wage. S. Dakota and 4 other states approved legalized recreational marijuana.

And on these popular issues, the supposed liberal party refuses to lead the charge or harness this obvious popular energy.

The Democratic party is one with a hollow ideology and it's obvious. Biden ran on a "return to decency" platform where policy goals beyond removing Trump are notably absent.

The party doubled down on the 2016 strategy of pointing out how awful Trump is while offering no real alternative vision beyond a world of soulless technocratic ghouls looting the nation's wealth, and now it seems like they are going to be rewarded by an extremely narrow win leading into a gridlocked government.

I expect McConnell will take an accelerationist approach and do everything in his power to prevent any meaningful improvement for ordinary people coming from government. Even anemic programs from a Biden administration will be scuttled by the Senate. Conservative grievance politics will run amok once again and a desperate people will be open to calls for another nascent fascist to make America great again.

We're diving right back into a situation like the late-Obama administration that will only embolden the most dangerous elements of the right and totally demoralize ordinary people and sap enthusiasm for liberal politics.
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Old 5th November 2020, 09:13 AM   #48
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So Biden broke the record for most votes, is 3.5 million votes ahead of Trump, will be the first candidate to defeat an imcumbent in nearly 30 years if all goes well , and all of this in the face of seemingly endless Republican efforts at voter suppression. Going to go out on a limb and say the problem the Democratic Party faces isn't its choice of candidates.

Its a system that is little different from the one a bunch of country gentlemen devised in the 1770's that has long since passed its use by date. Never mind all those things that the President couldn't do that it turned out he could so long as he didn't care about 200 years of gentlemen's agreements.
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Old 5th November 2020, 10:11 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Nonsense.
If not Pelosi, any other Democrat would get the "Witch" treatment.
Nancy is the shield/lighting rod for other Democrats and she brings in the money for the races for others.
I completely disagree. Her ratings are absolutely terrible, and when half of your own party hates her, there's a problem.

Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
I'd probably stop pushing gun control and appeal to gun owners. Conservationist gun owners, gun owners that want better healthcare, and an increasing amount of minority gun owners are going to have to make choices then.
That's the mind of thing I mean - while guns are a problem, they're probably not something that's going to lose votes, and may gain some.

Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
It has already been pointed out to you that Latinos and black men are not, in fact, going to Trump. They are overwhelmingly going to Biden.
I do know that, but it's also starkly clear that a significant percentage of black men voted Trump.

When 20% of a demographic vote for a bloke who has a lifetime of racism against that demographic, something's not right.

I repeat this evidence to maybe let it sink in a little: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/...-show-n1246447

Black women aren't stupid - they continue to support the party at 96%, yet the male black vote has dropped and has continued dropping, voting for the party of Jim Crow, lynchings and evicting black families.

I'd be interested to find out if many of those black voters are turned off the Dems by the gun control idea.
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Old 5th November 2020, 10:21 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I do know that, but it's also starkly clear that a significant percentage of black men voted Trump.

When 20% of a demographic vote for a bloke who has a lifetime of racism against that demographic, something's not right.

I repeat this evidence to maybe let it sink in a little: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/...-show-n1246447

Black women aren't stupid - they continue to support the party at 96%, yet the male black vote has dropped and has continued dropping, voting for the party of Jim Crow, lynchings and evicting black families.

I'd be interested to find out if many of those black voters are turned off the Dems by the gun control idea.
When some 20% of 48% of 12% of the population does something stupid, that says nothing in the big picture. More than 30% of the population believe in ghosts and angels. I'd bet a larger number of people believe the Earth is flat than the number of black men who voted for Trump.
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Old 5th November 2020, 10:24 AM   #51
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The slightest gains in any demographic can be the difference between victory or defeat. It's only tens of thousands of votes in a few states, again, that is going to flip this one way or another.

GA isn't done counting but losing any amount of black men there might have cost Biden the state. This is that close all over the place imo
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Old 5th November 2020, 10:24 AM   #52
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The Democrats sometimes don't grasp that "member of the minority" isn't that entire person's life.

It's not a matter of "X percent of this demographic will vote for someone who is anti-the demographic" in the abstract. It's that some members of that demographic care about things other than what happens to them on a demographic level. If you're an out of work left hander voting for the "We just love left handed" side and the "We hate left handed people but have a good job plan" side can be difficult.

And as I've already pointed out many times the Republicans are absolute masters at the "Not you... no you're one of the good ones" subtext to their hatred and... well people do fall that for some times, especially they are outliers in their own demographic. "Self hating" isn't exactly the right concept, but it's in the ballpark. You find women who hate feminist, black people who hate "ghetto black people", I'm sure homosexuals that hate "fruity gays" exist. You could get those people on your side in the margins while still seeming to hate the overall demographic if you can really nail the tone and subtext of your message.
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Old 5th November 2020, 10:25 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
When some 20% of 48% of 12% of the population does something stupid, that says nothing in the big picture. More than 30% of the population believe in ghosts and angels. I'd bet a larger number of people believe the Earth is flat than the number of black men who voted for Trump.
Especially true when it comes to polling.
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Old 5th November 2020, 10:30 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
The slightest gains in any demographic can be the difference between victory or defeat. It's only tens of thousands of votes in a few states, again, that is going to flip this one way or another.

GA isn't done counting but losing any amount of black men there might have cost Biden the state. This is that close all over the place imo
I personally know a few black men who didn't want to vote for Biden because of their belief in Qanonsense. I haven't asked how they did vote, if they did vote here in GA, mostly because I'm just keeping my head down and waiting for it to be over.
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Old 5th November 2020, 10:34 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
I personally know a few black men who didn't want to vote for Biden because of their belief in Qanonsense. I haven't asked how they did vote, if they did vote here in GA, mostly because I'm just keeping my head down and waiting for it to be over.
I live in a red county in a swing state. It's why I think protecting gun owners rights is a winning issue for Dems in these areas, a lot of otherwise reasonable people cling to guns like Jesus around here, because they like to hunt and go to the range with their AR and pose for facebook photos and don't want that taken away from them.

That said, I know two black guys at work that voted Trump. My impression of them is they don't follow politics enough to know that "he speaks his mind" and "he's not a politician" stuff is nonsense but that was their reasoning.
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Old 5th November 2020, 10:40 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The gun control example is interesting because it reveals that corporate democrats aren't averse to taking strong and polarizing stances, so long as it doesn't alienate their corporate masters.

There is increasing general demand for universal healthcare in this country, poll after poll shows that a healthy majority of Americans support some form of national, universal program. Yet neither of our leading two parties are willing to adopt a platform that acknowledges this increasingly popular mandate.

Florida, conservative run backwater that it is, just approved a $15 minimum wage. S. Dakota and 4 other states approved legalized recreational marijuana.

And on these popular issues, the supposed liberal party refuses to lead the charge or harness this obvious popular energy.

The Democratic party is one with a hollow ideology and it's obvious. Biden ran on a "return to decency" platform where policy goals beyond removing Trump are notably absent.

The party doubled down on the 2016 strategy of pointing out how awful Trump is while offering no real alternative vision beyond a world of soulless technocratic ghouls looting the nation's wealth, and now it seems like they are going to be rewarded by an extremely narrow win leading into a gridlocked government.

I expect McConnell will take an accelerationist approach and do everything in his power to prevent any meaningful improvement for ordinary people coming from government. Even anemic programs from a Biden administration will be scuttled by the Senate. Conservative grievance politics will run amok once again and a desperate people will be open to calls for another nascent fascist to make America great again.

We're diving right back into a situation like the late-Obama administration that will only embolden the most dangerous elements of the right and totally demoralize ordinary people and sap enthusiasm for liberal politics.
Good post.
I think "hollow" ideology might be a touch negative though. If you consider that conservative/republicans have basic cultural norms around which to rally, the opposing force can never really counter that substantively since it is basically the party of everyone else. Hollow or lacking specific tenets other than inclusion might be semantics, but ultimately it's impossible to wrangle all the varying moderate to liberal worldviews into a coherent, executable platform. Is there any way around that?
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Old 5th November 2020, 10:44 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
When some 20% of 48% of 12% of the population does something stupid, that says nothing in the big picture.
This:

Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
The slightest gains in any demographic can be the difference between victory or defeat. It's only tens of thousands of votes in a few states, again, that is going to flip this one way or another.
The big picture is that the country is so deeply divided that seemingly insignificant groups can sway the result. It might end up being tens rather than tens of thousands - there are several states where the margin is paper-thin and as little as 5% of the 48% of 12% could be the difference between 4 more years of Trump and not.
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Old 5th November 2020, 11:51 AM   #58
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Yeah, I’d be fine with Dems embracing the gun crowd a bit, politically. Especially since we are simply not going to fix the firearm problems we have in the States anytime soon anyway. Go around saying you’re going to get rid of some of the fees around gun ownership, for example.

I’ve certainly spoken to enough republicans who honestly believe Democrats are tirelessly working towards being able to literally take everyone’s guns (while saying Republicans don’t actually care that much about outlawing abortion, that’s just media spin.)

Hey, could the Dems manage to get into the leadership of the NRA and do something constructive/useful with it? Seems like it was pretty good for the first hundred years, and only Like That for the last fifty.

I mean I think most people on both sides are ok with the sanest stuff, like background checks, and it can’t be that hard to convince rank and file democrats that the ‘look we are helping!’ stuff like magazine limits are pretty much just theater anyways.

It seems like it would help to just finally work with the fact that we can’t actually prevent these big weird gun tragedies because there isn’t enough consensus on keeping guns safely in general, and we absolutely can not legislate our way through that problem. So just quit talking about what laws we can pass to keep little Johnny from stealing his family’s guns for a rampage, or what screening would prevent sales to a guy who hasn’t actually snapped yet. Let’s all agree to back-burner these issues until less than 75% of society is grossed out by the idea of what you’d have to do to effectively address them. And just stop it with gun legislation that is more annoying than helpful. We know a lot of your constituents like to see it, but show clear evidence it’s helpful or else knock it off.

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Old 5th November 2020, 12:01 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
This:



The big picture is that the country is so deeply divided that seemingly insignificant groups can sway the result. It might end up being tens rather than tens of thousands - there are several states where the margin is paper-thin and as little as 5% of the 48% of 12% could be the difference between 4 more years of Trump and not.
I think anyone expecting to make sure tens of people in any state don't do something stupid and against their own self interest is...naive at best.

As I brought up, people are falling for this Qanon stuff. Other people point out how Reps believe against all evidence that Dems are coming for their guns. There is a massive amount of misinformation out there making people do stupid things, and they don't trust the media to tell them the truth. How does the Democratic party even reach these people who listen to nothing but Limbaugh and Brietbart?
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Old 5th November 2020, 12:15 PM   #60
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This whole idea that "Latinos" and "Black men" (or White women, etc) are near-homogenous groups of voters is outdated at best. I don't know for sure that it was ever true. Maybe it was true enough to work at one point but I think we are way beyond that point.

I wish we could move past this, "appeal to a target demographic," approach. Target issues that affect broad swaths of people. Because the stereotypical Latino is a myth these days and I'm pretty sure that's true of any specific racial/ethnic/gender group you can think of.
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Old 5th November 2020, 12:42 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
I think anyone expecting to make sure tens of people in any state don't do something stupid and against their own self interest is...naive at best.

As I brought up, people are falling for this Qanon stuff. Other people point out how Reps believe against all evidence that Dems are coming for their guns. There is a massive amount of misinformation out there making people do stupid things, and they don't trust the media to tell them the truth. How does the Democratic party even reach these people who listen to nothing but Limbaugh and Brietbart?
Another factor I forgot to mention - let's not pretend that republicans haven't pushed forward even further as far as suppressing anyone who lives in a black polling district - which could also chance things by...an incredible 4%

And that's the real matter here- taking raw polling data, with no regression analysis, is essentially worthless in saying anything about a marginal change like this.
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Old 5th November 2020, 01:05 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Another factor I forgot to mention - let's not pretend that republicans haven't pushed forward even further as far as suppressing anyone who lives in a black polling district - which could also chance things by...an incredible 4%

And that's the real matter here- taking raw polling data, with no regression analysis, is essentially worthless in saying anything about a marginal change like this.
I am wondering about this change from 10% to 20% towards Trump, actually. These numbers are per exit polling, as I understand it. There is no exit polling for mail in votes, and the number of mail in votes massively increased this year. How accurate is this 20% of black men number in the first place?
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Old 5th November 2020, 01:17 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
He honest America, when this...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0ctq5nufbm...sian.jpg?raw=1

... is the mentality of hard core Republican supporters, you know that you are dealing with morons - at least 1/3 of US voters would vote Attila the Hun, or Adolph Hitler, or Charles Manson for president if they were on the Repugnican ticket.

The world has been laughing at your stupidity since 2016, and we're still laughing at you.
Shades of "Better Hitler Then Blum" in France rifght before World War 2.
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Old 5th November 2020, 01:32 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The gun control example is interesting because it reveals that corporate democrats aren't averse to taking strong and polarizing stances, so long as it doesn't alienate their corporate masters.

There is increasing general demand for universal healthcare in this country, poll after poll shows that a healthy majority of Americans support some form of national, universal program. Yet neither of our leading two parties are willing to adopt a platform that acknowledges this increasingly popular mandate.

Florida, conservative run backwater that it is, just approved a $15 minimum wage. S. Dakota and 4 other states approved legalized recreational marijuana.

And on these popular issues, the supposed liberal party refuses to lead the charge or harness this obvious popular energy.

The Democratic party is one with a hollow ideology and it's obvious. Biden ran on a "return to decency" platform where policy goals beyond removing Trump are notably absent.

The party doubled down on the 2016 strategy of pointing out how awful Trump is while offering no real alternative vision beyond a world of soulless technocratic ghouls looting the nation's wealth, and now it seems like they are going to be rewarded by an extremely narrow win leading into a gridlocked government.

I expect McConnell will take an accelerationist approach and do everything in his power to prevent any meaningful improvement for ordinary people coming from government. Even anemic programs from a Biden administration will be scuttled by the Senate. Conservative grievance politics will run amok once again and a desperate people will be open to calls for another nascent fascist to make America great again.

We're diving right back into a situation like the late-Obama administration that will only embolden the most dangerous elements of the right and totally demoralize ordinary people and sap enthusiasm for liberal politics.
Shory version:; I am angry that a majority of Americans are not as far to the left as I am.
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Old 5th November 2020, 01:34 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
I am wondering about this change from 10% to 20% towards Trump, actually. These numbers are per exit polling, as I understand it. There is no exit polling for mail in votes, and the number of mail in votes massively increased this year. How accurate is this 20% of black men number in the first place?
They supposedly include early and mail-in voting - but in truth, each polling place weighs their pools according to some standard that they consider a trade secret. It's not that you can get whatever you want out of them, as a wildly off-base poll will just embarrass the polling firm to the public - and a major swing in this or that district is a good indicator...for that district.

But so far, the only exit poll I've seen says that black, hispanic, and Asian men and women all went +4% for Dolt 45...but his voting share decreased among white men, only? That's...odd. Which is why I'm saying "let's wait a bit here". I don't necessarily trust any small change in a wildly different election - and in truth, I can't say it's definitely wrong, either.
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Old 5th November 2020, 01:34 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Shory version:; I am angry that a majority of Americans are not as far to the left as I am.
More like "I don't understand why other people get burnt out on being angry about politics just because I can feed off of it forever."
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Old 5th November 2020, 03:06 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
I think anyone expecting to make sure tens of people in any state don't do something stupid and against their own self interest is...naive at best.
Fatuous and factless comment.

Georgia has 5M voters. 30% of them are black, so let's say a fair few don't vote and that 10% of the voters are black men.

That is 500,000. Five hundred thousand, or half a million if you like.

I make 20% of that to be one hundred thousand people.

Not exactly "tens".

Need I point out that even if the Dems had managed to save half of that hundred thousand votes, that would be a net 100,000 to Biden, which would mean he'd already be ordering curtains for the White House.

Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
This whole idea that "Latinos" and "Black men" (or White women, etc) are near-homogenous groups of voters is outdated at best.
Has anyone suggested they are?

As I understand it, black and Hispanic people have much lower median wages than white and Asian people.

Those people are clearly not supported by the Republican Party and the Democrats pay a lot of lip service to those people, so maybe they need to try a bit harder.

I don't know whose data Team Trump were using this time in, but it worked like mad again - they identified their targets, bombarded them with bogus nonsense, and got them to vote. Why the Democrats were unable to that twice in a bleeding row is something they need to fix. Christ, our Labour Prime Minister managed to stitch the country up with a team of one analyst - this stuff isn't that hard.
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Old 5th November 2020, 03:09 PM   #68
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Another thing the Democrats need to fix is to go up to people like Ellen Degeneres and Robert De Niro and tell them to STFU. They are the kind of people who motivate the other side to go and vote.

What does it say to voters when someone immensely popular like Degeneres exhorts people to vote for the Democrats and then people find out she's cynical and exploitative?

Sure, Trump is much worse, but he's their guy, so it's ok.
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Old 5th November 2020, 03:25 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
...

Start by kicking out Pelosi - she is the only person on the planet less popular than Trump, yet is still the face of the party itself.
The reason she is hated is because she threatens the GOP. They've been on an obsessive mission to trash her the same way they did to Clinton.

She looks unpopular because she's effective.

There is a faction in the Democratic legislature that wants everything now, this minute. They didn't want Pelosi to be the Speaker because she wasn't radical enough for their taste. The world looks radical when everyone around you is radical.

Had Sanders won the primary, Trump would have already won this election. Yet I see posts/Tweets/interviews of Bernie supporters that don't get it. It appears that Bernie supporters did not go in big for Trump. So what is the implication?

The implication is Trump has way more supporters than anyone realized. I'm surrounded by 'libruls'. I don't for the life of me understand why anyone supports Trump except a handful of crazies. And yet it appears to be a full half of the country. Those were not people voting against Biden, they were people voting for Trump.

Sanders would have been 100 times more easy for the GOP to demonize. The one reason Biden may squeak out a win is because he was very hard to demonize.

We didn't have an Obama or a Bill Clinton (pre-sexual issues) running. I'm not sure how you drum one up. I believe they appear naturally the way the demon Trump did.


The one campaign I would have liked to have seen the Democrats undertake that they didn't was to portray Trump as the Golden Calf, the false profit. I think they could have pulled it off. That could have turned enough Evangelicals away from supporting Trump.

I also think the Democrats didn't do enough to show Trump as bad for peoples' pocketbooks. Shutting the country down was not the problem and that could have been shown.
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Old 5th November 2020, 03:37 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
As I understand it, black and Hispanic people have much lower median wages than white and Asian people.

Those people are clearly not supported by the Republican Party and the Democrats pay a lot of lip service to those people, so maybe they need to try a bit harder.

I don't know whose data Team Trump were using this time in, but it worked like mad again - they identified their targets, bombarded them with bogus nonsense, and got them to vote. Why the Democrats were unable to that twice in a bleeding row is something they need to fix. Christ, our Labour Prime Minister managed to stitch the country up with a team of one analyst - this stuff isn't that hard.
I didn't hear much about how Trump & Co. were not allowing a stimulus package to get to the people. This should have been on the news every night, but Democrats feel like they mentioned it once and it is up to the voters to remember.

I know they don't control the media the same way the GOP does, but they have to find a way auto get simple clear messages out to people whose lives are being impacted by GOP policy. Not black people, not hispanics, but all of the Americans being screwed over by Trump & Co. That is how you move the needle.
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Old 5th November 2020, 03:40 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
Well they certainly need to appeal to a wider audience. The turnout was amazing but Trump exceeded it. Where else do they get more voters except by peeling them off of the GOP.

I'd probably stop pushing gun control and appeal to gun owners. Conservationist gun owners, gun owners that want better healthcare, and an increasing amount of minority gun owners are going to have to make choices then.
Same here. I wouldn't make a huge fuss over it.
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Old 5th November 2020, 03:41 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I also think the Democrats didn't do enough to show Trump as bad for peoples' pocketbooks. Shutting the country down was not the problem and that could have been shown.
This was very frustrating. The connection between the virus and the economy should have been made very strong.

In taking the cowards way Trump hurt the economy way more than if he had reacted swiftly and strongly. We have entire industries that may not recover from Trump's mishandling of the virus and yet Biden could never make that connection clear.
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Old 5th November 2020, 03:44 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Same here. I wouldn't make a huge fuss over it.
Or maybe point out that Trump banned firearms via executive order and said that due process wasn't important when taking guns away from people. No democrat has ever suggested either of those things and would have been properly skewered if they had. Trump is the East Coast elite who doesn't give a **** about your guns and yet he was allowed to paint Biden as that.

I am so frustrated with the party even if they do pull this crapshow out in the end.
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Old 5th November 2020, 05:18 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I didn't hear much about how Trump & Co. were not allowing a stimulus package to get to the people. This should have been on the news every night, but Democrats feel like they mentioned it once and it is up to the voters to remember.
Based on what I hear, from Trump supporters, Trump opponents, and a mix of the two, no one remembered. "You can thank the Democrats in Congress for us not getting another stimulus" is what I hear, nothing about the bill the House passed and is quietly dying in the bill-pile on McConnell's desk. Who somehow got re-elected.
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Old 5th November 2020, 05:25 PM   #75
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Trump is certainly doing his best to ensure that the country stays divided when Biden takes over as POTUS.
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Old 5th November 2020, 05:29 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Trump is certainly doing his best to ensure that the country stays divided when Biden takes over as POTUS.
He will certainly continue to do so for the rest of his life.
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Old 5th November 2020, 05:44 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
I'm not sure if there is such a thing the "Latino vote" in the first place. Latinos are a far more diverse group than African-Americans, as far as I know.

The myth of the Latino vote
Indeed. The Latinos taken into the US after the Mexican were already a diverse group, while there's been diversity in Latino immigration since. African-Americans were pretty much all in the same case in the 1860's, and there's not been much African immigration since, hence much less diversity now. Biden made reference to this, I think, during the campaign, but rather clumsily and was pounced on for it.
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Old 5th November 2020, 05:55 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I do suspect 2 years of gridlock could allow the Rs to retake the house, resulting in only a few "legislative achievements" for Biden that still ultimately screw over most of us.
Let's not forget the Senate enquiries into Hunter Biden's Ukrainian affairs. And Benghazi. And Whitewater was never fully resolved, was it?
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Old 5th November 2020, 06:08 PM   #79
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A lot of these problems are due to the First Past the Post system and how it forces the US to be a two-party system. The Democrats have to try to accomodate everyone on one side of the arbitrary right-left divide, the Republicans have to cater to a whole range of people on the other.

CGP Grey taught me just letting people vote for as many different things as they wanted is a far superior method, which allows the different groups in a society to actually sequester into, well, different groups.
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Old 5th November 2020, 06:42 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The reason she is hated is because she threatens the GOP. They've been on an obsessive mission to trash her the same way they did to Clinton.

She looks unpopular because she's effective.
Sorry, but the facts disagree with you.

Even if every person who voted Trump is counted, her unpopularity would be 49%.

It's -53.6%. Plenty of Democrats hate her too, with only 36% of people viewing her favourably.

She has much worse numbers than Trump.

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I didn't hear much about how Trump & Co. were not allowing a stimulus package to get to the people. This should have been on the news every night, but Democrats feel like they mentioned it once and it is up to the voters to remember.
There you go - that's exactly the kind of message they could - and should - have been pushing on social media.

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Trump is certainly doing his best to ensure that the country stays divided when Biden takes over as POTUS.
And will continue to do so.
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