ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Trump supporters

Reply
Old 10th November 2020, 01:42 PM   #161
Horatius
NWO Kitty Wrangler
 
Horatius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 28,535
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
We've already seen the first steps towards achieving this goal. Challenging corporate democrats in deep blue states with progressive candidates is an important step, and I expect we'll only see more of this as time goes on.


So, your plan to deal with Republican obstructionism in the Senate is to work to replace Democrats.


Good luck with that.
__________________
Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd
Horatius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2020, 01:48 PM   #162
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 6,693
Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
So, your plan to deal with Republican obstructionism in the Senate is to work to replace Democrats.


Good luck with that.
I'm sure the Biden approach of pretending it's still 1985 and Republicans are reasonable, good faith opponents will work fine.

Quote:
Reporter: "How do you expect to work with Republicans if they won't even acknowledge you as president-elect?"

Biden, smiling: "They will."
https://twitter.com/therecount/statu...53530903154689

Looking forward to everyone being shocked when Biden tries to appoint compromise, conservative Democrats to positions and still gets blocked by the McConnell Senate.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2020, 01:55 PM   #163
blutoski
Penultimate Amazing
 
blutoski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,342
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'm sure the Biden approach of pretending it's still 1985 and Republicans are reasonable, good faith opponents will work fine.



https://twitter.com/therecount/statu...53530903154689

Looking forward to everyone being shocked when Biden tries to appoint compromise, conservative Democrats to positions and still gets blocked by the McConnell Senate.
Citing the fact that they refuse to accept his presidency seems inevitable.

"We are holding off on approving all appointments until the lawsuits seeking closure on Trump's re-election are resolved."

(narrator's voice: "They were never resolved")
__________________
"Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett
blutoski is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2020, 01:59 PM   #164
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 28,602
And McConnell would compromise with Bernie and AOC more because....

Or are we still playing "Oh as soon soon as they nominate a real progressive bajillions of voters are going to pour out of the woodworks and start the uprising" narrative?
__________________
No, someone having reality and facts on their side does not mean they have been given an unfair advantage and it is not a bias against you. You're just wrong.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2020, 02:09 PM   #165
Egg
Graduate Poster
 
Egg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,544
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I think it's important for a free society to recognize that a difference of belief is acceptable. Draw a distinction between belief and action.
Where are the lines here though?

For one, we're running into Popper's paradox of tolerance. A free society that manages to find enough votes (through disinformation, manipulation, cheating, fear or whatever tactics) to stop being a free society is finished.

Is there a clear distinction between belief and action? Speaking/spreading those beliefs is an action. Voting on those beliefs is an action.

I think it's more than reasonable for a society to have some agreed values and make some lines that can't be crossed. That doesn't have to mean locking up those who don't share those values, but it could mean taking away platforms from such people or giving more teeth to checks and balances to hold leaders more accountable.
__________________

"That's the thing with eggs: It's all about chicks and getting laid." - Wuschel
"A hen is only an egg's way of making another egg" - Samuel Butler
“When arguing with a stone an egg is always wrong” - African proverb
“A true friend is someone who thinks that you are a good egg even though he knows that you are slightly cracked” - Bernard Meltzer
Egg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2020, 02:11 PM   #166
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 6,693
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And McConnell would compromise with Bernie and AOC more because....

Or are we still playing "Oh as soon soon as they nominate a real progressive bajillions of voters are going to pour out of the woodworks and start the uprising" narrative?
They don't think they would. I agree there's probably little to be done in the immediate future to fix this problem. It's a longer term project. But a long term project that needs to start, and soon.

Nothing changes unless the Democratic party starts advocating for policies that are popular. This doesn't mean more means tested technocratic nonsense that nobody understands or wants, but simple, direct solutions to the ills of our current society. And they need to show that the Republican party is the one blocking it. It takes time to build credibility and support, but it can be done.

We're reaching the limit on the ability of technocratic liberals to achieve victory by pointing out how the Republican party is the greater evil every election cycle. Being civil and competent administrators of power isn't enough.

Democrats need to start making popular appeals to the public and directly challenging the entrenched Republican party. It will take time, but there's a path forward.

There's no future to third way liberalism that's a good one.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 10th November 2020 at 02:13 PM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2020, 02:20 PM   #167
Egg
Graduate Poster
 
Egg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,544
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yet of course you are patronizing them by assuming they are too stupid to realize all of this. When does an argument based on the purported ignorance of the individuals involved stop being patronizing?

I figure they are smart and knowledgeable and are thus fine with Trumps blatant racism, and know his promises are empty. Then it seems the racism is the biggest reason to vote for him but of course pointing that out is right out too.

With this many restraints on basic fact how can there be any meaningful reconciliation?

He inspired many who's defense of him involved things like "take him seriously not literally" or my coworker asserting that his wall was all a metaphor and not a real policy proposal. They know he is full of it, the racism is blatant so what was compelling about him?
It's truly my hope that a significant proportion of the 70 million are merely ignorant and not just voting against their own interests, but actually against their own values. I'm not sure there's any reaching the folks who genuinely like authoritarianism and racism.
__________________

"That's the thing with eggs: It's all about chicks and getting laid." - Wuschel
"A hen is only an egg's way of making another egg" - Samuel Butler
“When arguing with a stone an egg is always wrong” - African proverb
“A true friend is someone who thinks that you are a good egg even though he knows that you are slightly cracked” - Bernard Meltzer
Egg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2020, 02:36 PM   #168
Horatius
NWO Kitty Wrangler
 
Horatius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 28,535
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Nothing changes unless the Democratic party starts advocating for policies that are popular. This doesn't mean more means tested technocratic nonsense that nobody understands or wants, but simple, direct solutions to the ills of our current society. And they need to show that the Republican party is the one blocking it. It takes time to build credibility and support, but it can be done.

So the plan is to spend years proposing legislation that you know will die in the Senate, and just hope that this somehow wins over the Republican voters who already complain about the "Do-Nothing Democrats".

Winning strategy, I'm sure.
__________________
Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd
Horatius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2020, 02:44 PM   #169
Cain
Straussian
 
Cain's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 14,092
Best plausible long term scenario: failed coup.
Worst plausible short term scenario: successful coup.
__________________
April 13th, 2018:
Ranb: I can't think of anything useful you contributed to a thread in the last few years.
Cain is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2020, 02:59 PM   #170
Mader Levap
Graduate Poster
 
Mader Levap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,241
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Eye for a eye, tooth for a tooth, blood for blood. Excellent strategy for conciliation.
I don't see them very conciliatory. In fact, quite a opposite. Important people from republican party are still pretending Trump won election. Loonies scream about nutty conspiracies and non-existent election fraud.

You know, both sides have to be willing to have any reconciliation. I see no will from republicans, so I respond in kind.
__________________
Sanity is overrated. / Voting for Republicans is morally equivalent to voting for Nazis in early 30's.
Mader Levap is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2020, 04:04 PM   #171
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 13,209
Originally Posted by Egg View Post
It's truly my hope that a significant proportion of the 70 million are merely ignorant and not just voting against their own interests, but actually against their own values. I'm not sure there's any reaching the folks who genuinely like authoritarianism and racism.
I see this sort of sentiment a lot. How do you know what their interests and values are? How have you determined that they're acting against those interests and values? Are you quite certain that you're not assuming what you believe their interests and values ought to be?
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2020, 04:18 PM   #172
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 6,693
Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
So the plan is to spend years proposing legislation that you know will die in the Senate, and just hope that this somehow wins over the Republican voters who already complain about the "Do-Nothing Democrats".

Winning strategy, I'm sure.
Minimum wage increase to $15 won in Florida with 60% of the vote.

Progressive policies are popular. The Democratic party has a well earned reputation as a bunch of elite do nothings that have nothing but contempt for working people, but popular policies could do a lot to change perceptions. It won't happen overnight.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2020, 04:24 PM   #173
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 6,693
Quote:
unsurprisingly Biden's transition team includes executives from Lyft, Airbnb, Amazon, Capital One, Booz Allen, Uber, Visa, JPMorgan
https://twitter.com/NathanJRobinson/...84822982123520

Yeah that'll do it. Feeling better already, what a bright future ahead.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2020, 04:47 PM   #174
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 19,926
Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
Tit for tat is entirely fair.
And an eye for an eye leaves the world blind. You will never heal the divide in your country as long as both sides are acting like you are. The only way is for one side to be the bigger one and stop treating the other as something lesser.
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

PhantomWolf is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2020, 04:48 PM   #175
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 13,209
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
https://twitter.com/NathanJRobinson/...84822982123520

Yeah that'll do it. Feeling better already, what a bright future ahead.
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2020, 05:06 PM   #176
Delvo
Дэлво Δελϝο דֶלְבֹֿ देल्वो
 
Delvo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: North Tonawanda, NY
Posts: 9,017
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And McConnell would compromise with Bernie and AOC more because....

Or are we still playing "Oh as soon soon as they nominate a real progressive bajillions of voters are going to pour out of the woodworks and start the uprising" narrative?
Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
So the plan is to spend years proposing legislation that you know will die in the Senate, and just hope that this somehow wins over the Republican voters who already complain about the "Do-Nothing Democrats".

Winning strategy, I'm sure.
If the ruling Democrats' standard plan of rolling over for the Republicans every time so brilliant, why can't any of its supporters ever muster a single argument for it that doesn't have lies (particularly lies about the people who favor alternatives) built in as its premises?

Why not adopt a position that can be defended honestly instead?
Delvo is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2020, 05:16 PM   #177
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Port Townsend, Washington
Posts: 29,774
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I just realized:

Trump is going to be the JFK of the 21st Century: the focal point of all US conspiracies, the one good guy who was (character-) assassinated by the (((Media-Industrial Complex))) because (enter reason here).

We will never, ever, hear the end of this.
I certainly will not. Makes me glad to be into my eighth decade now.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2020, 05:20 PM   #178
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Port Townsend, Washington
Posts: 29,774
Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Best plausible long term scenario: failed coup.
Worst plausible short term scenario: successful coup.
The former is by far less plausible. We're all screwed.

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Minimum wage increase to $15 won in Florida with 60% of the vote.
Supported, I've heard by mega-corps like McDonalds and Wal-Mart who are already paying somewhat higher wages and know it will hurt their small competitors.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2020, 06:22 PM   #179
Egg
Graduate Poster
 
Egg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,544
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I see this sort of sentiment a lot. How do you know what their interests and values are? How have you determined that they're acting against those interests and values? Are you quite certain that you're not assuming what you believe their interests and values ought to be?
I said "hope", I'm not claiming knowledge or certainty. But that hope is based on what I've seen and heard from co-workers, social media etc.

Apparently, there's a poll suggesting up to 70% of Republicans believe that there was widespread fraud in the election. They say things like that they just want to be assured that voting was legal and everything was above board. Are they lying or is this just ignorance?

We heard earlier in this thread from ChrisPFRBKY - he appears to be someone strongly against racism. Is he just trolling us with that? It seems genuine to me.
__________________

"That's the thing with eggs: It's all about chicks and getting laid." - Wuschel
"A hen is only an egg's way of making another egg" - Samuel Butler
“When arguing with a stone an egg is always wrong” - African proverb
“A true friend is someone who thinks that you are a good egg even though he knows that you are slightly cracked” - Bernard Meltzer

Last edited by Egg; 10th November 2020 at 06:35 PM.
Egg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2020, 08:10 PM   #180
Horatius
NWO Kitty Wrangler
 
Horatius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 28,535
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Minimum wage increase to $15 won in Florida with 60% of the vote.

Progressive policies are popular. The Democratic party has a well earned reputation as a bunch of elite do nothings that have nothing but contempt for working people, but popular policies could do a lot to change perceptions. It won't happen overnight.


Joe Biden already came out in favor of a $15 minimum wage. How much did that help him?

Is there anyone who actually thinks the GOP would be better on this issue? If not, why did so many people vote for them?

The ACA is also very popular, and still over 70 million people voted to overturn Obamacare.

Having the best policies in the world doesn't help if close to 50% of the population won't listen to the truth about your policies, and in fact prefers to listen to the opposition's lies about your policies. Until you address that, nothing you say will matter.
__________________
Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd
Horatius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2020, 08:14 PM   #181
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,163
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
And an eye for an eye leaves the world blind. You will never heal the divide in your country as long as both sides are acting like you are. The only way is for one side to be the bigger one and stop treating the other as something lesser.
Also, several universities, AFL-CIO, Trust for America's Health, the Urban Institute, and the Native American Agricultural Fund, among others.

Imagine that, a mixture of people of various interests, that's...exactly what I was expecting.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2020, 08:20 PM   #182
Venom
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 4,723
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
https://twitter.com/NathanJRobinson/...84822982123520

Yeah that'll do it. Feeling better already, what a bright future ahead.
Damn.
Venom is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2020, 09:35 PM   #183
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 48,750
Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
So, your plan to deal with Republican obstructionism in the Senate is to work to replace Democrats.


Good luck with that.
Reminds me of the Commpounist Party in Germany in 1932 spending all of it's time campainging agsinst the Social Democrats rather then the Nazis.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2020, 09:37 PM   #184
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 48,750
Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
So the plan is to spend years proposing legislation that you know will die in the Senate, and just hope that this somehow wins over the Republican voters who already complain about the "Do-Nothing Democrats".

Winning strategy, I'm sure.
But it will bring out that vast, hidden Left wing vote out there.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2020, 09:41 PM   #185
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 48,750
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
https://twitter.com/NathanJRobinson/...84822982123520

Yeah that'll do it. Feeling better already, what a bright future ahead.
And what, pray tell,would you replace Private Business with? Government Agencies? It's has been tried, and has not worked out too well.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2020, 10:03 PM   #186
Venom
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 4,723
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And what, pray tell,would you replace Private Business with? Government Agencies? It's has been tried, and has not worked out too well.
Calm down it's not about abolishing private business. It doesn't take a socialist to be worried about the influence of big money in politics. We may not be able to measure that influence or know everything that goes on between party elites and their wealthy donors, but I'd rather not wait to feel the effects of it.
Venom is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2020, 10:08 PM   #187
Lurch
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 1,610
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I think it's important for a free society to recognize that a difference of belief is acceptable. Draw a distinction between belief and action.

Even in your post here, you're varnishing this with implied moral judgements. You've decided that someone else's opinion is morally wrong. Fundamentally, this means that you have decided that your beliefs are the morally right beliefs, and that beliefs which differ from yours in that arena are effectively evil. It allows you to demonize those who view the world differently than you.

That demonization, that presumption of moral righteousness, has always been the cornerstone of persecution.

I don't want a civil war waged on the basis of belief. And whether you view it as religion or not, politics is a collection of values and beliefs.
A difference of belief is acceptable when the beliefs have no negative consequences for others.

A belief in Sky Daddy is fine when confined to prayer at home or in a house of worship. It's not fine when one's belief leads to persecuting another for having a belief in a different Sky Daddy they quietly worship.

A Trumper believing that Dems are child-raping baby-eaters operating out of a pizza joint, and then goes on to shoot up a pizza joint, is a case of belief having a negative consequence.

Another. A belief that climate change is a hoax, such denial on a national scale leading to acceleration in the undesired global warming and sea level rise, has negative consequences.

Belief does not trump fact. Belief that opposes fact and which can cause harm must never be accepted as sharing the same realm with fact. It must be opposed. This is so obvious it embarrasses me to even have to jot it down.

Last edited by Lurch; 10th November 2020 at 10:11 PM.
Lurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2020, 10:54 PM   #188
Lurch
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 1,610
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
As much as I dislike your style, and frequently disagree with your means, I often agree with the ends that you're after.



It's been going on for a really long time. Most of my life I've watched the liberals drift further and further into "ivory tower" positions, which present a very academic and theoretical "solution" to a problem they don't actually understand. Granted, the conservatives haven't addressed those problems either (and have just as often contributed to them)... but at least the conservatives generally aren't dismissive and condescending about it. The only thing worse than ignoring real problems... is insisting that the people with the problems are too stupid to be worth your attention while you ignore their real problems.


I'm not sure about this. It depends very much on what policies you're talking about. Medicare for All and Free College sound great on paper - but they don't address the needs of a lot of people in the center of the country. UBI might make it a little less painful... but that still doesn't create jobs that allow people to live where they want to live and have the lives they want to have. We need to find ways to bring manufacturing and core industry back to the US, with US employees.
That last paragraph (and particularly the final sentence) belies something of lack of realism, at least in the near to intermediate term. (Much to dispute in that preceding as well, but too much to tap out on my phone.)

Rural people generally live where they do and have the lives they're living because they don't want to be urbanites or suburbanites. Bringing manufacturing, and the associated infrastructure, out to the sticks could impact the nature of their desired environment. Might as well move to the city where such facilities already exist. And the needs of some types of manufacture might not permit locating to the hinterland.

Establishing manufacturing in a developed nation would kill competitiveness due to higher costs. Unless the produced goods are unique, and never expected to be challenged by lower cost versions made elsewhere. Or unless the nation become isolated from global markets.

These concerns are hardly to be accommodated or overcome in one, or even a couple of election cycles. They pose longer term challenges politicians tend not to prioritize.

Besides all that. Didn't HRC, in the '16 campaigning cycle, mention retraining coal miners and the like to learn more appropriate skills for employment in the modern economy, and get ridiculed by the very people who she would have liked to help? Seems to me to be something of a self-defeating, obtuse, obstreperous, reality-denying, Trumpian idiocy that needs adjustment.
Lurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2020, 11:01 PM   #189
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 13,670
Urbanization is a trend that is directly at odds with the current electoral system: it continues to make America less democratic, year by year.

But instead of adapting to it, Rural America has doubled down in a "sour grape" posture of disliking everything urban while at the same time becoming completely dependent on wealth transfer from the rich urban, mostly blue States.
__________________
Ceterum autem censeo fox et amicis esse delendam.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2020, 11:32 PM   #190
Lurch
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 1,610
Recognize the already obscene, and rapidly increasing, wealth divide as a fundamental cause of national discontent. The middle class is shrinking. Infrastructure is crumbling.

Add to that the obeisance of the political class to the monied interests, and the grotesque industrial scale lobbying around it, leading to the catering to the corporatists at the expense of the working class.

Add to that a schizophrenic justice system that jails legions of the poor in for-profit prisons on the scale of despotic regimes, while treating white collar criminals having high-priced lawyers with kidd gloves.

Add to that the criminal-level health care system that ties coverage of care to a job through the predatory insurance profiteers, and in any event too often leads to bankruptcy.

Dealing with these four aspects of national disfunction should ease (never completely eradicate, though) the kind of discontent that leads to the allure of cleaving to a populist, demagogic authoritarian.

The fifth pillar, racism, will require the mere passage of time, for the whittling by death of the numbers of those afflicted with xenophobic nostalgia. As the nation continues to brown.
Lurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2020, 12:10 AM   #191
Egg
Graduate Poster
 
Egg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,544
Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Recognize the already obscene, and rapidly increasing, wealth divide as a fundamental cause of national discontent. The middle class is shrinking. Infrastructure is crumbling.

... snipped - it's just up there ^
This is all good stuff and highlights some serious economic problems that need addressing, but if the wealth divide is the key factor here, wouldn't we then expect most Trump voters to be from lower income groups?

According to American National election Study data from the 2016 election, only around 35% of Trump voters earned under $50k (see Washington Post article here). Education levels had a higher correlation.
__________________

"That's the thing with eggs: It's all about chicks and getting laid." - Wuschel
"A hen is only an egg's way of making another egg" - Samuel Butler
“When arguing with a stone an egg is always wrong” - African proverb
“A true friend is someone who thinks that you are a good egg even though he knows that you are slightly cracked” - Bernard Meltzer
Egg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2020, 06:44 AM   #192
Mader Levap
Graduate Poster
 
Mader Levap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,241
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
And an eye for an eye leaves the world blind. You will never heal the divide in your country as long as both sides are acting like you are. The only way is for one side to be the bigger one and stop treating the other as something lesser.
Why democrats always are only ones that are expected to have obligation to do so? For me, this expectation is indirect admission about nature of other side.

I repeat for n-th time: both sides must want it.
__________________
Sanity is overrated. / Voting for Republicans is morally equivalent to voting for Nazis in early 30's.
Mader Levap is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2020, 06:45 AM   #193
Lurch
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 1,610
For the more financially secure Trumpists, the 'tax cuts' aspect will doubtless have appeal. That particularly insidious flavor of capitalism practiced in the US has people ignorant of the need of a functioning society to collect taxes for the common good. The American myth of the 'rugged individualist' is at odds with reality. Government is viewed as almost a system imposed from without, and which must be pared down to the absolute minimum in order to let privatization magically cure all ills.

Such a misguided reliance on a purely profit-based economy can only contribute to the widening wealth divide, as socialism for the rich and rough capitalism for the rest must.
Lurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2020, 08:05 AM   #194
Egg
Graduate Poster
 
Egg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,544
Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
Why democrats always are only ones that are expected to have obligation to do so? For me, this expectation is indirect admission about nature of other side.
It absolutely is. That and/or the other side seeing a willingness to compromise as a weakness to be exploited depending on who holds the power in the situation.
__________________

"That's the thing with eggs: It's all about chicks and getting laid." - Wuschel
"A hen is only an egg's way of making another egg" - Samuel Butler
“When arguing with a stone an egg is always wrong” - African proverb
“A true friend is someone who thinks that you are a good egg even though he knows that you are slightly cracked” - Bernard Meltzer
Egg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2020, 08:07 AM   #195
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 6,693
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And what, pray tell,would you replace Private Business with? Government Agencies? It's has been tried, and has not worked out too well.
I would humbly suggest that titans of private industry are uniquely disqualified to be regulators. The conflict of interest is obvious.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2020, 08:19 AM   #196
Egg
Graduate Poster
 
Egg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,544
Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
For the more financially secure Trumpists, the 'tax cuts' aspect will doubtless have appeal. That particularly insidious flavor of capitalism practiced in the US has people ignorant of the need of a functioning society to collect taxes for the common good. The American myth of the 'rugged individualist' is at odds with reality. Government is viewed as almost a system imposed from without, and which must be pared down to the absolute minimum in order to let privatization magically cure all ills.

Such a misguided reliance on a purely profit-based economy can only contribute to the widening wealth divide, as socialism for the rich and rough capitalism for the rest must.
You can't have tax cuts and build infrastructure and tackle the wealth gap (unless a group of billionaires have some massive change of heart to fund this).

So, is the conclusion here that pretty much the only Trump voters who aren't gullible and ignorant are the super-wealthy (who the system is working for) and maybe racists?
__________________

"That's the thing with eggs: It's all about chicks and getting laid." - Wuschel
"A hen is only an egg's way of making another egg" - Samuel Butler
“When arguing with a stone an egg is always wrong” - African proverb
“A true friend is someone who thinks that you are a good egg even though he knows that you are slightly cracked” - Bernard Meltzer
Egg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2020, 08:31 AM   #197
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 28,602
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I would humbly suggest that titans of private industry are uniquely disqualified to be regulators. The conflict of interest is obvious.
Without going too far down a road to a potential hijack (and to be clear I'm using your statement as a jumping off point, this isn't meant as a direct rebuttal).

The thing is in a capitalist system robber-barons don't become robber-barons because they love money, they do it because they love power. Most (not all) of powerful people in a system don't love the system, they love power and are good at seeking out the best positions of power in a system. They love the system only in so far as they love the system they are comfortable being in power in.

Bernie Madoff became a super-rich, super-corrupt businessman in America because that's a position of power in that system. If he was born in the Cold War era Soviet Union he would have done everything in his power to be a party insider. If had been born in Renaissance Italy you could be assured he would marry into the Medici. If we all crashed landed on a deserted island you can be damn sure his ass would be the first to grab the conch shell. And he would have been just as corrupt and damaging to the overall society in those cases.

Bernie Madoff wasn't a government regulator because in our system that position isn't powerful enough.

If the government regulator is made more powerful than the robber baron, then most of the robber barons would just become government regulators instead and we're right back where we started. You'd be arguing that government is too powerful and we had to give power to private business.

We can't make greed go away by getting rid of capitalism. The same people would just seek out positions of power, via the shame shady means, in the new system.
__________________
No, someone having reality and facts on their side does not mean they have been given an unfair advantage and it is not a bias against you. You're just wrong.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2020, 08:49 AM   #198
Lurch
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 1,610
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Without going too far down a road to a potential hijack (and to be clear I'm using your statement as a jumping off point, this isn't meant as a direct rebuttal).

The thing is in a capitalist system robber-barons don't become robber-barons because they love money, they do it because they love power. Most (not all) of powerful people in a system don't love the system, they love power and are good at seeking out the best positions of power in a system. They love the system only in so far as they love the system they are comfortable being in power in.

Bernie Madoff became a super-rich, super-corrupt businessman in America because that's a position of power in that system. If he was born in the Cold War era Soviet Union he would have done everything in his power to be a party insider. If had been born in Renaissance Italy you could be assured he would marry into the Medici. If we all crashed landed on a deserted island you can be damn sure his ass would be the first to grab the conch shell. And he would have been just as corrupt and damaging to the overall society in those cases.

Bernie Madoff wasn't a government regulator because in our system that position isn't powerful enough.

If the government regulator is made more powerful than the robber baron, then most of the robber barons would just become government regulators instead and we're right back where we started. You'd be arguing that government is too powerful and we had to give power to private business.

We can't make greed go away by getting rid of capitalism. The same people would just seek out positions of power, via the shame shady means, in the new system.
We're venturing into philosophical matters, a bit. Not my strong suit.

A system which is foundationally structured to worship wealth and also reward wealth with power is doomed. For the end result is what is approaching; ruinous financial collapse along the lines of the '29 Great Depression.

A democracy must studiously ward off lobbying via money. It is unavoidably corrupting. It's human nature we're considering here. Safeguards must be erected and enforced. The politics I see in the US would be farcical if not for the bad outcomes. Little wonder the populace is cynical. And hence ripe for the manipulations of one who would claim to "clean the swamp."
Lurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2020, 09:12 AM   #199
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 13,209
Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
So the plan is to spend years proposing legislation that you know will die in the Senate, and just hope that this somehow wins over the Republican voters who already complain about the "Do-Nothing Democrats".
Hmm. Interesting take. I don't particularly frequent a lot of Republican stuff on the internet, but my friends & family IRL is pretty broad and representative of all political perspectives. I don't recall any Republicans ever complaining about Democrats not doing anything - they tend to be rather happy about Democrats not accomplishing stuff. On the other hand, I do run into Progressives complaining about Democrats not getting anything done.
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2020, 09:22 AM   #200
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 13,209
Originally Posted by Egg View Post
I said "hope", I'm not claiming knowledge or certainty. But that hope is based on what I've seen and heard from co-workers, social media etc.
Pro-tip: Don't trust social media. It's full of idiots and attention-seekers.

Originally Posted by Egg View Post
Apparently, there's a poll suggesting up to 70% of Republicans believe that there was widespread fraud in the election. They say things like that they just want to be assured that voting was legal and everything was above board. Are they lying or is this just ignorance?
Neither? Perhaps suspicious instead, combined with a bit of denialism. While it is generally unlikely to occur in large numbers, there are loopholes when it comes to voting. For example, in some states, all that is needed in order to register to vote is a driver's license or state ID. Which is great in terms of not restricting access to citizens. On the other hand though, some of those states only ask for proof of address and residence in order to get those licenses and ids. Which leads to a situation where non-citizens can get a driver's license or id, which then would allow them to vote - even though they aren't actually supposed to vote because they aren't citizens. When you pair that with states that are known to be pretty lax about immigration enforcement and fairly welcoming and protective toward undocumented residents, it's a fairly natural suspicion to land on. It's a clear loophole that could potentially present a problem.

Many people recognize that those undocumented residents are highly unlikely to try to vote, because they're not dumb and it presents a risk to them. But it's still a loophole that lends itself to suspicion. It's pretty easily foreseeable that the party who loses in one of those states would look to that loophole as a potential explanation in the face of defeat.

I'd prefer loopholes like that to be closed, simply because it shuts down one avenue of suspicion and exposure. But then, a pretty considerable chunk of my career is around risk mitigation and management, so I'm predisposed to think that way.
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:04 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.