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Old 9th November 2020, 09:18 AM   #1
Meadmaker
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Allegations of Fraud in 2020 US Election

I think we should have a thread specifically about voter fraud, or election fraud in general, in the recently completed 2020 election.

One of the benefits of the JREF, and we continue that legacy, was the way it critically examined claims and debunked false ones. The important part was not merely the debunking, but also educating the people reading about it in the way that false claims were made, spread, and ultimately debunked. In some cases, that did not mean a complete and total debunking. Some of the most effective nonsense is spread by mixing it in with a kernel of truth.

So, I think we should have a dedicated thread for allegations of vote fraud where we can cite examples, and present evidence that shows whether it did or did not happen, and also explore sources and examine ways in which the allegations are spread. This can also serve as a resource for people to find information for off-forum discussions and interests.

Some of this is happening in the general election thread, but that topic is much broader, and is easily diverted every time a new Trump tweet is reported, so I would like to see it discussed here.

So, please, anyone who thinks there is evidence of vote fraud, let's bring it up and we'll see if we can delve into it.
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Old 9th November 2020, 09:21 AM   #2
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There's a thread about this in the CT forum. Not sure what is more appropriate. There is yet no evidence of these claims and it smacks of your typical CT, but it does have an explicitly political axis which may make it more appropriate for this subforum.

Barring any credible evidence of significant vote fraud, it seems more appropriate to store this CT with all the other garbage in the CT subforum.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=347781
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Old 9th November 2020, 09:22 AM   #3
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Old 9th November 2020, 09:22 AM   #4
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Could I suggest that we start by addressing the following post?

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Michigan
  • A city worker in Detroit claims he and fellow employees were told to back date ballots that came in too late. (Solomon)
  • Antrim county was initially reported as going to Biden. This was so implausible that votes were recounted, and the county went to Trump. The initial miscount was due to "human error."
  • Democrat absentee votes in Oakland county were counted twice. Once corrected, the result of the local election flipped for the Republican.
  • Over 14,000 dead people registered / voted

Pennsylvania
  • Election observers were kept 30 feet from the actual vote counting, meaning they could not see the ballots
  • Statistically impossible voter turnout, and record number of people over 90 years old registering to vote
  • Illegally backdated votes that came in too late

Wisconsin
  • Voter turnout higher than number of registered voters in some areas
  • Election officials tracked down witness addresses for absentee ballots to validate votes, a policy that may be illegal.
  • After the pause in reporting, vote shares shifted in favor of democrats within city wards, meaning this was not due to more democratic areas reporting later, and this was truer the more behind the democrats were in each ward, contrary to what an explanation based on late mail-in voters would predict.
  • Only the state legislature can change election procedures, but election officials allowed potentially over 100,000 voters to bypass ID requirements by claiming that COVID prevented them from leaving home.

Arizona
  • Based on sworn testimony, it is alleged that ballots in Maricopa county featuring "over-voting" were invalidated rather than fixed. (Singman)

Georgia
  • Illegal ballot harvesting

And then there are things like this:

https://i.imgur.com/oDfWFqc.png

And other things I'm seeing allegations about which I haven't included here.

So when I say I've seen evidence that leads me to believe careful recounts and audits are in order, I'm not literally saying like "oh a whistleblower showed up at my house and we sat down and looked at a couple hundred thousand ballots together and they looked fishy to me" - obviously. I'm saying I am seeing allegations (and not seeing convincing refutations of most of them) that, if proven true, are quite serious and these issues to me seem to obviously necessitate an investigation. I don't think that's a huge claim to make.
There's a nice solid list of allegations to get stuck into there.

Dave
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Old 9th November 2020, 09:24 AM   #5
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The Wisconsin "vote turnout" irregularity is debunked, it was using registration data from the 2018 election. The turnout wasn't unusually high in the state when you use 2020 eligible voter numbers.

It wasn't even the record. 2004 had slightly higher turnout.
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Old 9th November 2020, 09:24 AM   #6
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You have to understand that this is a new kind of conspiracy theory, one unique to our new, wonderful Post-Fact world.

Because the goal is not to actually convince anyone that the election was rigged. It's to just get the idea out there because since there's no intellectual or argumentative standards anymore and everything is "just like, you're opinion man" that's all it takes.
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Old 9th November 2020, 09:27 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Could I suggest that we start by addressing the following post?



There's a nice solid list of allegations to get stuck into there.

Dave
I wouldn't waste time on these. It's up to ST to provide evidence of his allegations.
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Old 9th November 2020, 09:28 AM   #8
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Given that no state election commission has reported significant voting problems, it is up to the Trump legal team to convince a Judge.
So far, they have gotten nowhere.
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Old 9th November 2020, 09:29 AM   #9
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How about we don't lend credence to these allegations by debunking them? They are **** allegations, and we know this because Trump gave the game away way in advance.
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Old 9th November 2020, 09:30 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
How about we don't lend credence to these allegations by debunking them? They are **** allegations, and we know this because Trump gave the game away way in advance.
Yeah, it's a dog's breakfast of nonsense that even the right isn't taking too seriously.

Unless it's something the Trump campaign is willing to try to argue in court, dismissing these claims outright seems wise.

It's much more desperation than any real basis. The example of the Wisconsin "turnout irregularity" seems to have sprouted from a single meme that went viral.

The mad Gish gallop of meritless claims says a lot about the mindset of the CHUDs though. They are desperately grasping for straws. They hold onto a glimmer of hope for these meritless lawsuits, but I imagine this desperation will turn to destructive rage once it becomes clear to them Trump has no recourse to his loss.
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Old 9th November 2020, 09:33 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Unless it's something the Trump campaign is willing to try to argue in court, dismissing these claims outright seems wise.
Rudy already said they intend to do just that, just outside of Four Seasons Total Landscaping. Guess we'll see how that goes.

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Old 9th November 2020, 09:33 AM   #12
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When someone offers some evidence to back up these claims then consider them.
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Old 9th November 2020, 09:34 AM   #13
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I'll start with the Antrim County claim.

Here's a link that discusses it:

https://www.freep.com/story/news/pol...ty/6209693002/


Basically, when they ran the votes through the tabulators, they came up odd, and so the county got on the phone with the vendor of the tabulators, people looked into it, got the right software in place, and reran the numbers.

This isn't evidence of vote fraud at all. It's evidence that people are paying attention and when they see an irregularity, they check it and fix it. The system worked.

What it does suggest is that our voting systems can be improved, and mistakes are possible. Fortunately, we have good people running these operations looking out for these mistakes, and correcting them as fast as possible.
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Old 9th November 2020, 09:39 AM   #14
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Election 2020: A look at Trump campaign election lawsuits and where they stand

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/elec...ry?id=74041748
here's a source on the several lawsuits the Trump campaign has already tried, and their status.

Some of them have already been dismissed.

Seems a common trend in several dismissed lawsuits that the Trump campaign is unhappy that their poll observers can't observe exactly how they please, and judges not granting their motions to compel specific requests.

There seemed to be some maneuvering to see that late arriving mail ballots be rejected or otherwise separated, but Biden's win in these states with on time ballots seems to have largely mooted this.
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Old 9th November 2020, 09:40 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
There's a thread about this in the CT forum. Not sure what is more appropriate. There is yet no evidence of these claims and it smacks of your typical CT, but it does have an explicitly political axis which may make it more appropriate for this subforum.

Barring any credible evidence of significant vote fraud, it seems more appropriate to store this CT with all the other garbage in the CT subforum.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=347781
Ok. I hadn't noticed it. I'll let the mods decide where is most appropriate, if they want to merge this one.

I tend to think it ought to be in politics, but I don't have strong feelings on the subject. (I thought about posting it to CTs myself, but decided politics was more appropriate, at least for now, just because this topic is a bit more "mainstream" than typical CT fare.)
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Old 9th November 2020, 09:41 AM   #16
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Former Illinois Gov. Rod Blagojevich told Newsmax TV that election fraud runs deep and is widespread in large Democrat-controlled cities.

Quote:
“I don't think it's just confined to Philadelphia,” he said, adding his "instincts" tell him election fraud is taking place in other cities like Atlanta, Detroit, Milwaukee, and Las Vegas.

“Coming out of the Democratic Chicago political establishment I know how they operate,” he said, pointing out Democrats control the political apparatus that counts the votes, the polling places, and the people who count the votes. “It’s a time-honored tradition" he said of Democratic election fraud.

He claimed that Democrat-led polling places stop counting votes when their candidate is behind and in the middle of the night “the stealing starts.”

“We’ve seen that in big numbers, in unprecedented numbers in this election,” he said, noting cities are getting away with conducting widespread fraud because the “corrupt mainstream media” isn’t “interested in protecting our Constitution.”

“They just want to beat Donald Trump at all costs,” he said, adding that Democrats aren’t just stealing the election from the president, but they are stealing it from the American people.
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Old 9th November 2020, 09:44 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
lol "instincts".

Facts don't care about your feelings.
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Old 9th November 2020, 09:45 AM   #18
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Now, about those back dated ballots in Detroit. here's a story on that one:

https://justthenews.com/politics-pol...ered-backdated

Summary: The FBI is looking into it.


What that tells me is that allegations of voter fraud are taken very seriously, and it would be very hard to get away with actual fraud. Allegations like this should be investigated, and they are, by dedicated people who want to squash fraud like a bug before it has a chance to spread.

We will see what comes of this story.
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Old 9th November 2020, 09:46 AM   #19
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Well, I mean if his "instincts" tell him, then I guess all we need now is someone's Spidey Sense to tingle, and the game is over.
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Old 9th November 2020, 09:46 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
The same Rod Blagojevich that had to have Trump commute him out of an 14 year prison sentence for accepting bribes to get Obama's Senate Seat? That guy?

Do you pick your examples for maximum irony and hypocrisy or is it just a coincidence?
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Old 9th November 2020, 09:47 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
this has nothing to do with your source having been pardoned by Trump, has it?
'Rod' has a fanatical pro-Trump podcast he is promoting.
He is not contributing any actual information.
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Old 9th November 2020, 09:47 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Quoting people without evidence is not evidence.
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Old 9th November 2020, 09:48 AM   #23
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Well he mentions his "instincts" yes, but he makes it clear that this is based on his personal knowledge of party politics and operations. So it's not quite the same as some random hobo on the street saying it.
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Old 9th November 2020, 09:50 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Now, about those back dated ballots in Detroit. here's a story on that one:

https://justthenews.com/politics-pol...ered-backdated

Summary: The FBI is looking into it.


What that tells me is that allegations of voter fraud are taken very seriously, and it would be very hard to get away with actual fraud. Allegations like this should be investigated, and they are, by dedicated people who want to squash fraud like a bug before it has a chance to spread.

We will see what comes of this story.
Not much there. If you allege a crime to the FBI, they'll probably respond with a claim that they are "investigating".

The article is unclear, but it sounds like any claims were passed off second hand from the state GOP headquarters, so it's unclear if anyone with first hand knowledge of anything actually made a complaint.

I expect a lot of these claims of fraud will find a shortage of people willing to make eye-witness claims to the FBI, because lying to the cops is a crime. There will be no shortage of second-hand reports that the FBI will "investigate", but I'm not holding my breath for anything substantial.
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Old 9th November 2020, 09:50 AM   #25
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I'm glad Blagojevich has instincts. Bet he has outstincts too. And trans-, sub-, intra-, intro-, meta-, xeno-, extra-, and even ULTRASTINCTS!

English is such a beautiful language.
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Old 9th November 2020, 09:51 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Well he mentions his "instincts" yes, but he makes it clear that this is based on his personal knowledge of party politics and operations. So it's not quite the same as some random hobo on the street saying it.
He doesn't actually substantiate any of it. How he knows it, how it works, etc.
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Old 9th November 2020, 09:51 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Now, about those back dated ballots in Detroit. here's a story on that one:

https://justthenews.com/politics-pol...ered-backdated

Summary: The FBI is looking into it.


What that tells me is that allegations of voter fraud are taken very seriously, and it would be very hard to get away with actual fraud. Allegations like this should be investigated, and they are, by dedicated people who want to squash fraud like a bug before it has a chance to spread.

We will see what comes of this story.
Interesting wording:

Quote:
...a city worker stepped forward and claimed election workers were asked to backdate ballots that had come in after the election deadline had passed, multiple officials said.
So was the city worker ALSO an election worker? Or is this second hand information?

ETA: Sorta ninja'ed by SuburbanTurkey.
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Old 9th November 2020, 09:51 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Weird that he didnít take his evidence to the proper authorities and instead chose to go to some hack right wing media outlet.

Iím starting to think that this proven liar and convicted felon might be untrustworthy.
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Old 9th November 2020, 09:51 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Iím starting to think that this proven liar and convicted felon might be untrustworthy.
My instincts tell me that you might be correct.
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Old 9th November 2020, 09:52 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
This might be true. One other bit of evidence that needs to be thrown into the mix, however, is this:

Blago to Black Trump supporters: ĎIím one of your homiesí

His corruption sentence was commuted by Trump.
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Old 9th November 2020, 09:53 AM   #31
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Now this one:

Quote:
Statistically impossible voter turnout,
Classic CT methodology. A vague claim on something where an extremely precise claim is possible.

Statistics is math. Equations. Data. The declaration that something is "statistically impossible" can only come as a result of a calculation, and yet, no calculation is provided. No substance. No backup. Impossible to investigate the claim, because there's no information, despite the fact that the claim is meaningless without that information.


But wait......something about it can be investiaged, because it is no doubt being repeated in exactly the same meaningless form across the interenet, and google can probably find the root of this claim. (Those guys at google can find things pretty well, because they are good with statistics.) So, lets' see what I might turn up just by putting that exact phrase into google.
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Old 9th November 2020, 09:54 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
Interesting wording:



So was the city worker ALSO an election worker? Or is this second hand information?

ETA: Sorta ninja'ed by SuburbanTurkey.
Good catch.
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Old 9th November 2020, 09:55 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Well he mentions his "instincts" yes, but he makes it clear that this is based on his personal knowledge of party politics and operations. So it's not quite the same as some random hobo on the street saying it.
No, itís just the word of a proven liar and convicted felon, absent any corroborative evidence.

Having worked within the system heís now claiming is corrupt, heís basically a whistleblower and should be able to blow this whole thing wide open with damning evidence.

When do you anticipate this will happen?
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Old 9th November 2020, 09:56 AM   #34
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The claims in this thread are embarrassing. To all the MAGA types out there, you recall the libs melting down in 2016 and how silly they looked right? You're blowing your shot to not look even more pathetic now that it's your guy getting trounced by a terrible opponent.

Cope levels are through the roof.

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Old 9th November 2020, 09:58 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
No, itís just the word of a proven liar and convicted felon, absent any corroborative evidence.

Having worked within the system heís now claiming is corrupt, heís basically a whistleblower and should be able to blow this whole thing wide open with damning evidence.

When do you anticipate this will happen?
If someone says "I used to be in the mafia and I had knowledge of mafia hits that were undertaken. This guy who just washed up on the shore has all the telltale signs of a mafia hit, and he was exactly the type of guy they would put a hit out on. He had such and such information and was threatening to expose it..."

It doesn't make sense to say "oh well then why don't you go to the cops and prove it?"

He isn't saying he knows it for a fact, he's saying that as someone who is familiar with the methods of operation, what he's seeing fits the pattern perfectly.
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Old 9th November 2020, 10:03 AM   #36
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When I put in the phrase "statistically impossible voter turnout", with quotes, this is the first hit I got back:

https://thetentacle.com/2020/11/4769/

Apparently, the phrase was uttered by one Leigh Dundas, a lawyer, during a conference call in something Trump relateed.

Well if you can't trust a lawyer quoted in The Tentacle, who can you trust?

In all seriousness, though, it goes back to my last post. What was the turnout? Why was it statistically impossible? If it's statistics, there has to be math to back it up. CTers are famous for using words like "statistically" to make themselves sound smart, but eventually, you are supposed to show statistics. Those are numbers.

On the other hand, lawyers in conference calls are allowed to sling BS. In court, they are severely restricted from doing so, but in the media, they can, and do, say whatever they like. Maybe she should schedule a press conference at Norm's Plumbing Supply and reveal the evidence.

Well, at any rate, if someone can present the statistics, someone should. Until then, claims of "statistically impossible", ring a little hollow.
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Old 9th November 2020, 10:04 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
If someone says "I used to be in the mafia and I had knowledge of mafia hits that were undertaken. This guy who just washed up on the shore has all the telltale signs of a mafia hit, and he was exactly the type of guy they would put a hit out on. He had such and such information and was threatening to expose it..."

It doesn't make sense to say "oh well then why don't you go to the cops and prove it?"

He isn't saying he knows it for a fact, he's saying that as someone who is familiar with the methods of operation, what he's seeing fits the pattern perfectly.
Blagojevich's claim, though, is at least a step further removed than your hypothetical; it's more like an ex-mafia hit man hearing that someone's died and saying, "My instinct tells me this was a hit because he's exactly the sort of guy the mafia tends to hit" when he hasn't actually seen the body and doesn't know what the dead man knew or was planning to say. Blagojevich isn't saying "Here are tell-tale signs of specific scams I'm familiar with," he's just saying "I think this election was stolen because Democrats always steal elections."

Also, the State of Georgia is hardly a "large Democrat-controlled city".

Dave
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Old 9th November 2020, 10:04 AM   #38
johnny karate
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
If someone says "I used to be in the mafia and I had knowledge of mafia hits that were undertaken. This guy who just washed up on the shore has all the telltale signs of a mafia hit, and he was exactly the type of guy they would put a hit out on. He had such and such information and was threatening to expose it..."

It doesn't make sense to say "oh well then why don't you go to the cops and prove it?"

He isn't saying he knows it for a fact, he's saying that as someone who is familiar with the methods of operation, what he's seeing fits the pattern perfectly.
The mafia is a criminal organization not open to public scrutiny.

The election system of any given state is very much open to public scrutiny.

The proven liar and convicted felon that you find trustworthy for some reason has made claims that can easily be substantiated or refuted by an investigation.

When do you anticipate the evidence for these claims will be presented and the subsequent investigation will begin?

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Old 9th November 2020, 10:05 AM   #39
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This is all philosopher logic where someone goes "Okay this is a fact, it's a thing that actually happened" and they respond with "Okay but what if" and expect it to be treated the same.
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Old 9th November 2020, 10:09 AM   #40
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I posted the link about Blagojevich in here because it's a thread for collecting stuff about 2020 election fraud claims / info.

Didn't put much more thought into it than that. I didn't think to myself "oh yeah, this is hard core evidence"
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