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Old 9th November 2020, 07:37 PM   #321
TahiniBinShawarma
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Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
@ktbenner


NEW: Richard Pilger, the official who oversees election crimes has stepped down over Barr's memo:
“Having familiarized myself with the new policy and its ramifications… I must regretfully resign from my role as Director of the Election Crimes Branch.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/09/u...elections.html
R's will shrug https://ballotpedia.org/Richard_Pilger
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Old 9th November 2020, 07:39 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Well, there are the various recordings, eye witness testimony and so forth. I'm sure you know about them as well as I do. If you aren't happy with that, you are going to have to wait and see if there is an investigation. The point of an investigation is to substantiate or refute the claims. Demanding the fruits of the investigation before the investigation is ridiculous. Equally I think Nixon did kind of have to provide that by doing his own investigation before the official investigation that Kennedy was then able to have stopped.
Sure there is. You do get that people make **** up as clickbait?
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Old 9th November 2020, 07:41 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Well, there are the various recordings, eye witness testimony and so forth. I'm sure you know about them as well as I do. If you aren't happy with that, you are going to have to wait and see if there is an investigation. The point of an investigation is to substantiate or refute the claims. Demanding the fruits of the investigation before the investigation is ridiculous. Equally I think Nixon did kind of have to provide that by doing his own investigation before the official investigation that Kennedy was then able to have stopped.
You claimed evidence exists.

Please provide this evidence or concede that it doesn’t exist.
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Old 9th November 2020, 07:41 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I think that we, as citizens, can help maintain or we can hasten the destruction of American democracy. If we say, without evidence, that the wrong guy is in the White House, we are saying that America is not a democracy. I think that contributes to the destruction of American democracy.
4 years to late to make that argument. The other side sees Democrats as having done precisely that for 4 years.

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
My hostility toward Trump was enhanced greatly when he talked about rigged elections in 2016. Saying something was rigged is a good way to say that we don't really have a democracy. For a candidate to say that, without evidence, I thought was completely irresponsible. For a president to say it is unforgivable. For the people to echo and repeat those claims is predictable, but very dangerous.
Trump says a lot of things. He was accused of rigging this election by sabotaging the postal system. Things get thrown around and each side feels convinced and justified.

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
For my part, I want to see evidence, and there isn't any, and Trump should put up or shut up.
That's going to take an investigation. At the moment the evidence is the same as there was in 1960 where there was some pretty spectacular shenanigans going on in Chicago.
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Old 9th November 2020, 07:44 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
You claimed evidence exists.

Please provide this evidence or concede that it doesn’t exist.
What form do you want the evidence in? Take the widely publicised claim of poll watchers being told to leave because there was going to be no more counting only for there to be no more counting. Do you need me to personally present the poll watcher to you for inspection so you can cross examine them? This is ridiculous.
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Old 9th November 2020, 07:45 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Sure there is. You do get that people make **** up as clickbait?

Actually the Trump campaign filings have several witness affidavits.
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Old 9th November 2020, 07:46 PM   #327
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All I can say is.... HA HA!!

From: The Guardian
A “voter-fraud” hotline set up by Donald Trump’s campaign team has been on the receiving end of a slew of prank calls...the hotline, which is being run by campaign staff from the headquarters of the re-election campaign headquarters in Virginia, has turned into a “nightmare”, with staffers answering “prank calls from people laughing or mocking them..."

Some of the calls they received:
- Unknown caller: “there’s an obese turtle that has rolled onto its back and is flailing in the hot sun,” (a reference to Trump)

- Comedian Alex Hirsch: “So I saw a man, he walked into this building, And he was wearing a – he had a black hat, a black mask, striped shirt and a red tie. And I believe there were hamburgers in his bag? And he was saying, ‘Robble, robble,’ as he was exiting the building, like a burglar. You know, I think he’s probably Antifa. Can I speak to Rudy Giuliani?”

- Comedian Nick Lutsko: found an envelope marked “INSIDE: 100,000 Trump ballots Pennsylvania. Very important do NOT lose!!!”
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Old 9th November 2020, 07:47 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Sure there is. You do get that people make **** up as clickbait?
Maybe, we will see. If we are going to take your attitude then certainly no pre-investigation evidence is going to be non-dismissible. For myself, I'll be much happier with the evidence when people are under oath.
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Old 9th November 2020, 07:48 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
Actually the Trump campaign filings have several witness affidavits.
But what evidence do you have? Rinse and repeat.
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Old 9th November 2020, 07:49 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
What form do you want the evidence in? Take the widely publicised claim of poll watchers being told to leave because there was going to be no more counting only for there to be no more counting. Do you need me to personally present the poll watcher to you for inspection so you can cross examine them? This is ridiculous.
What does that prove? "Hey we're shutting down for the night" We'll resume counting tomorrow at 10. Did the vote count change in the interim?

Hearing rumor on top of rumor on top of rumor is not evidence.
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Old 9th November 2020, 07:49 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
What form do you want the evidence in? Take the widely publicised claim of poll watchers being told to leave because there was going to be no more counting only for there to be no more counting. Do you need me to personally present the poll watcher to you for inspection so you can cross examine them? This is ridiculous.
Do you accept claims as evidence?
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Old 9th November 2020, 07:50 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
Actually the Trump campaign filings have several witness affidavits.
Not sure if it's in the filing. Although there are reports of them.
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Old 9th November 2020, 07:57 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
Actually the Trump campaign filings have several witness affidavits.
Ok, but I haven't heard of any that had first hand witnesses. Every one presented so far has been a claim of what someone was told someone else saw.

Do you have any firsthand witness claims?


(Please let it be the New Jersey resident, convicted sex offender, and perennial candidate that Giuliani trotted out claiming to be a Philadelphia resident and poll watcher!)
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Old 9th November 2020, 08:03 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
Actually the Trump campaign filings have several witness affidavits.
Of what? Remember the scene in A Few Good Men where Caffey said he intended to call Airmen Cecil O'Malley and Anthony Rodriguez to prove his case?

Same thing could apply here.
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Old 9th November 2020, 08:04 PM   #335
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I had never heard of the 1960 voter fraud story. Found this link from heritage foundation with multiple ‘cites.’ The report I posted is about Chicago voter fraud investigated by the fbi in 1982.

Last edited by ServiceSoon; 9th November 2020 at 08:13 PM.
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Old 9th November 2020, 08:05 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by ServiceSoon View Post
I had never heard of the 1960 voter fraud story. Found this link from heritage foundation with multiple ‘cites.’
The Heritage Foundation. Now that's a reliable source.
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Old 9th November 2020, 08:12 PM   #337
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If anyone had any credible evidence, they would present it to a Judge.
The fact that trumpers only present their claim's to the public is strong evidence that they've got nothing.
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Old 9th November 2020, 08:13 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
If anyone had any credible evidence, they would present it to a Judge.
The fact that trumpers only present their claim's to the public is strong evidence that they've got nothing.
Yep!
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Old 9th November 2020, 08:25 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
I thought Biden won, and everything else was a conspiracy theory?
No need to be obtuse. You know as well as I do that the voting is over. Tabulation, lawsuits, certification, etc. are not.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
No, that's not what the memo said. It's about as non-committal a memo as I have ever read. I also think you're reading too much into the Esper firing.
I hope you're right. I've probably been watching too much election coverage. If you read Esper's response though, he didn't think there wasn't much to it, and not because it was his job (which was only going to last 2 months anyways).

Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Pretty much, its good you understand that

Our current President doesn't understand that. He's an idiot who still has control of a vast security and military apparatus. That's a dangerous situation.
Exactly.

Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
If it's a federal election it's a federal crime. They try to wait until after, I don't think there are set rules against investigating. They have to walk the line of not getting involved in an election while at the same time taking serious allegations seriously.
Similar to not indicting a sitting president. Generally, you don't investigate until a crime has been committed (ETA: or reasonable evidence that one may occur or has happened). Then the FBI could investigate.

Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
@ktbenner


NEW: Richard Pilger, the official who oversees election crimes has stepped down over Barr's memo:
“Having familiarized myself with the new policy and its ramifications… I must regretfully resign from my role as Director of the Election Crimes Branch.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/09/u...elections.html
This leads me to continue to believe the Barr memo is more significant than some people are asserting.

This thread is moving pretty fast, sorry for late responses.
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Last edited by slyjoe; 9th November 2020 at 08:28 PM.
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Old 9th November 2020, 08:29 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
Actually the Trump campaign filings have several witness affidavits.
Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
But what evidence do you have? Rinse and repeat.

Here’s how that’s going so far:
Quote:
“‘I heard someone else say something,'” Michigan Judge Cynthia Stephens said on Thursday, summing up an affidavit submitted by the Trump campaign. “Tell me how that is not hearsay. Come on now!”.

Feel free to explain why any of these other alleged affidavits should be taken any more seriously.
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Old 9th November 2020, 08:33 PM   #341
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So far, all of the so-called evidence of election fraud that I have seen appears to be similar in nature to the evidence moon landing deniers put up when they claim that Apollo was faked..

- That shadow looks wrong, therefore fake
- No stars in the sky, therefore fake
- This lighting doesn't look right, therefore fake

These are anomalies that the claimants are often unable to understand because they are too ill-informed (and in some cases, too stupid to understand.

Same applies here; just because something looks wrong or does not meet someone's personal expectations of what it should look like, does not mean fraud has taken place... its not evidence of fraud, its only evidence that the person fails to understand.
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Old 9th November 2020, 08:33 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
@ktbenner


NEW: Richard Pilger, the official who oversees election crimes has stepped down over Barr's memo:
“Having familiarized myself with the new policy and its ramifications… I must regretfully resign from my role as Director of the Election Crimes Branch.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/09/u...elections.html
Whoa.

Uhh, i guess my assessment that the memo was no big deal is probably wrong. I'm guessing that this dude Pilger probably knows more about it than I do.


(However, as of today, I'm guessing I know more than he does about Benford's Law.)
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Old 9th November 2020, 08:34 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
This leads me to continue to believe the Barr memo is more significant than some people are asserting.
I'm not asserting anything other than the memo says to follow up on credible evidence of election fraud. I would assume that the different Districts would do that anyway.

I'll start getting concerned when actual investigations are launched and real evidence is uncovered. Otherwise,I'll try to relax and have a drink or two.
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Old 9th November 2020, 08:36 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Whoa.

Uhh, i guess my assessment that the memo was no big deal is probably wrong. I'm guessing that this dude Pilger probably knows more about it than I do.


(However, as of today, I'm guessing I know more than he does about Benford's Law.)
I bet you do too
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Old 9th November 2020, 08:38 PM   #345
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
4 years to late to make that argument. The other side sees Democrats as having done precisely that for 4 years.
I think some of the things said by Democrats, especially by rank and file, in the street sorts of Democrats, have contributed to the destruction of American democracy.

And, of course, democracy has not been destroyed, but I think it's weaker than it was four years ago. I think the damage Trump is doing right now is greater than all of what anyone on the left did over the last four years.


Quote:
That's going to take an investigation. At the moment the evidence is the same as there was in 1960 where there was some pretty spectacular shenanigans going on in Chicago.
Well, yes, and if Trump were only calling for an investigation I might give him a pass. That's not it, though. He's saying he won Wisconsin. He is saying there was fraud. He is making accusations, not calling for investigations.

He's dangerous.
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Old 9th November 2020, 08:39 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
If anyone had any credible evidence, they would present it to a Judge.
The fact that trumpers only present their claim's to the public is strong evidence that they've got nothing.
And so far, almost everything they HAVE presented to a judge has been tossed out.... they are 0 for 10.

The only thing that wasn't tossed was a request for some PA provisinal ballot to be segregated and not counted in the results, which Judge Alito approved, but since PA was already doing that anyway, it hardly counts as a victory.
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Old 9th November 2020, 08:41 PM   #347
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Ok, but I haven't heard of any that had first hand witnesses. Every one presented so far has been a claim of what someone was told someone else saw.

Do you have any firsthand witness claims?


(Please let it be the New Jersey resident, convicted sex offender, and perennial candidate that Giuliani trotted out claiming to be a Philadelphia resident and poll watcher!)
There are supposedly election workers, city workers, postal workers etc with first hand knowledge. I don't know the merits. I expect we would get a look at the allegations at some point soon.

The strategy seems to be to get a case in each state they want to contest so that they can go for discovery and inspect the ballots/software/machines etc. That and a lot of the legislatures are Republican, so they are going to dip their feet in as well.

However unlikely I think they have a shot. Barr met McConnell today and McConnell went on the floor and basically said its not over till the fat lady sings. Then Barr puts the memo out and then Pilger steps down. I don't think it's as cut and dried as most here think. Whether you call it "stealing" or not, it wouldn't surprise me. Especially if the Supreme Court gets involved. 3 of them worked on the Bush/Gore recount. Biden was chairman for Thomas's confirmation that went so well. Kavanaugh got the Thomas treatment etc. The conservatives control the court. So, I'm not ruling out anything.
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Old 9th November 2020, 08:42 PM   #348
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You know, if you guys on the political left had the ability to take a step back and actually view things from outside of your own belief bubble, you might acknowledge that it doesn't really look that great as a movement to:

1.) Have elements within that have burned down countless businesses, looted, and attacked people for appearing to be political opponents or being the wrong race or owning a business and trying to defend it, and that this element is not disavowed in any substantial way by most of your most prominent figures.

2.) Is trying to rush the other side to concede when there are automatic recounts and, if nothing else, at the very least an unprecedented number of mail in ballots which certainly represents a challenge to the system and existing infrastructure. You demanded Al Gore be given his proper time to contest the results in Florida, and not be rushed. No matter how much veracity you think there may be in some of these claims going around about fraud, it seems to be uncontested that software used in like 28 states had a glitch in at least one county that flipped 6,000 votes back and forth, to Biden then back. At a bare minimum, it seems to me that any reasonable person would agree that we need to ensure this glitch didn't happen in other places across the country in a way that might've impacted the election.

3.) Your side are actively working to impede efforts at reporting instances of election problems and laughing about it.

But yeah, don't worry, it's all good because you're "on the right side of history."

As you openly celebrate the transfer of control and majority population share from one racial group to a bunch of others you are simultaneously encouraging to hate and resent the first group.

ETA: Immediately after posting this, I saw this on Twitter:

Quote:
BREAKING EXCLUSIVE--> System 'Glitch' Also Uncovered In Wisconsin - Reversal of 19,032 Votes Removes Lead from Joe Biden
@JoeHoft
via
@gatewaypundit

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Old 9th November 2020, 08:43 PM   #349
TahiniBinShawarma
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Whoa.

Uhh, i guess my assessment that the memo was no big deal is probably wrong. I'm guessing that this dude Pilger probably knows more about it than I do.


(However, as of today, I'm guessing I know more than he does about Benford's Law.)
LOL
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Old 9th November 2020, 08:44 PM   #350
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Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
There are supposedly election workers, city workers, postal workers etc with first hand knowledge. I don't know the merits. I expect we would get a look at the allegations at some point soon.

The strategy seems to be to get a case in each state they want to contest so that they can go for discovery and inspect the ballots/software/machines etc. That and a lot of the legislatures are Republican, so they are going to dip their feet in as well.

However unlikely I think they have a shot. Barr met McConnell today and McConnell went on the floor and basically said its not over till the fat lady sings. Then Barr puts the memo out and then Pilger steps down. I don't think it's as cut and dried as most here think. Whether you call it "stealing" or not, it wouldn't surprise me. Especially if the Supreme Court gets involved. 3 of them worked on the Bush/Gore recount. Biden was chairman for Thomas's confirmation that went so well. Kavanaugh got the Thomas treatment etc. The conservatives control the court. So, I'm not ruling out anything.
See that word? That's the problem. As others have pointed at, they all fall apart (affidavits). Present the evidence if there is any.
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Old 9th November 2020, 08:48 PM   #351
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From a former Federal Prosecutor

"@shipwreckedcrew

Here is the tension between Barr and the Election Crimes Br. Chief. Barr authorized US Attorneys to conduct investigations. Public Intergrity Section at DOJ claims that turf as its own. Public Integrity wrote a manual saying their approval is required. Barr overrode."
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Old 9th November 2020, 08:50 PM   #352
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Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
See that word? That's the problem. As others have pointed at, they all fall apart (affidavits). Present the evidence if there is any.
I haven't made a determination either way BECAUSE I haven't seen them. You should probably do the same.
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Old 9th November 2020, 08:53 PM   #353
johnny karate
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
You know, if you guys on the political left had the ability to take a step back and actually view things from outside of your own belief bubble, you might acknowledge that it doesn't really look that great as a movement to:

1.) Have elements within that have burned down countless businesses, looted, and attacked people for appearing to be political opponents or being the wrong race or owning a business and trying to defend it, and that this element is not disavowed in any substantial way by most of your most prominent figures.

2.) Is trying to rush the other side to concede when there are automatic recounts and, if nothing else, at the very least an unprecedented number of mail in ballots which certainly represents a challenge to the system and existing infrastructure. You demanded Al Gore be given his proper time to contest the results in Florida, and not be rushed. No matter how much veracity you think there may be in some of these claims going around about fraud, it seems to be uncontested that software used in like 28 states had a glitch in at least one county that flipped 6,000 votes back and forth, to Biden then back. At a bare minimum, it seems to me that any reasonable person would agree that we need to ensure this glitch didn't happen in other places across the country in a way that might've impacted the election.

3.) Your side are actively working to impede efforts at reporting instances of election problems and laughing about it.

But yeah, don't worry, it's all good because you're "on the right side of history."

As you openly celebrate the transfer of control and majority population share from one racial group to a bunch of others you are simultaneously encouraging to hate and resent the first group.

Here’s you, openly advocating for state-sanctioned mass murder:
Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
I wish the police were just straight up opening fire on these groups of protestors at this point
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Old 9th November 2020, 08:54 PM   #354
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Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
I haven't made a determination either way BECAUSE I haven't seen them. You should probably do the same.
I'm basing my view on history. The affidavits so far are a joke.
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Old 9th November 2020, 08:55 PM   #355
johnny karate
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Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
I haven't made a determination either way BECAUSE I haven't seen them. You should probably do the same.
We’ve seen at least one. It was laughed out of court. There’s no reason to believe the others won’t be, too.
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Old 9th November 2020, 08:56 PM   #356
TahiniBinShawarma
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Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
I'm basing my view on history. The affidavits so far are a joke.

You have all the affidavits? Could you link them, I'd like to see them.
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Old 9th November 2020, 08:57 PM   #357
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Here’s you, openly advocating for state-sanctioned mass murder:
"Oh yeah? You just pointed out that the club I'm part of seems to be comprised of like 10% cannibal rapist puppy killers? Well, checkmate - remember when you said this?!?!

Quote:
Cannibal rapist puppy killers should be shot
GOTCHA!!!"
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Old 9th November 2020, 08:58 PM   #358
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Quote:
BREAKING EXCLUSIVE--> System 'Glitch' Also Uncovered In Wisconsin - Reversal of 19,032 Votes Removes Lead from Joe Biden
@JoeHoft
via
@gatewaypundit
Well that would be a pretty big deal. Pity gatewaypundit didn't cite a source, but I'm sure we'll see it popping up elsewhere, if it's real, and on Twitter, if it's not.
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Old 9th November 2020, 09:02 PM   #359
TahiniBinShawarma
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Well that would be a pretty big deal. Pity gatewaypundit didn't cite a source, but I'm sure we'll see it popping up elsewhere, if it's real, and on Twitter, if it's not.

Would be big indeed. A lot of talk is about the software used to tally the votes. Dominion software. Although Hoft is a blowhard lol.

Last edited by TahiniBinShawarma; 9th November 2020 at 09:07 PM.
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Old 9th November 2020, 09:16 PM   #360
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Well that would be a pretty big deal. Pity gatewaypundit didn't cite a source, but I'm sure we'll see it popping up elsewhere, if it's real, and on Twitter, if it's not.
I tried figuring out what they were thinking. Apparently it has to deal with fox news election website numbers reporting on election night.

This is like the 100,000 votes for Biden and zero for Trump thing. Why are people treating these sites like they are official?
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