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Old 17th November 2020, 10:07 AM   #121
JoeMorgue
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Let's be a little realistic here. If X amount of people get to just not payback an amount of money they borrowed the people who had to pay the money back under similar circumstances are allowed to at least be a little annoyed at it without it being a trolley problem or some grand political philosophy.
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Old 17th November 2020, 10:10 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Let's be a little realistic here. If X amount of people get to just not payback an amount of money the borrowed the people who had to pay the money back under similar circumstances are allowed to at least be a little annoyed at it without it being a trolley problem.
Envy is a deadly sin, and overcoming it is something expected as part of maturity.
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Old 17th November 2020, 10:11 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Let's be a little realistic here. If X amount of people get to just not payback an amount of money the borrowed the people who had to pay the money back under similar circumstances are allowed to at least be a little annoyed at it without it being a trolley problem.
Sure, I imagine the vets that spent their teen years dodging the VC were probably mad that later generations didn't have to go die in Vietnam, but that's not a good reason to continue idiotic policy.

It's maddening to see that other people are avoiding a raw deal that screwed you over, but correcting mistakes is still a desirable course of action.

I, for one, attended a reasonably priced state school that was paid for by scholarship and working part time. Perhaps I could have attended a pricier, more prestigious school if I knew the debt would be forgiven. I still don't begrudge those who might benefit from such a scheme when I will not.
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Old 17th November 2020, 10:13 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Elvis666 View Post
Yep, college loan debt is not a new problem. I'm well into retirement and both my wife and I had to pay back thousands of dollars in loans. My kids worked their way though with a combination of scholarships and loans, and my wife and I took care of those, too. I see the reasoning behind cancelling the debt, but those of us who had to pay 10s of thousands out of our pockets see another, possibly more selfish, side.
Not sure how old you are. But the problem is much worse today and there use to be avenues to discharge student debt. Also college is more expensive today and the debts are larger.
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Old 17th November 2020, 10:13 AM   #125
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I said annoyed with, that's all.

I'm talking about rolling your eyes and grumbling a bit, not actively opposing it.
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Old 17th November 2020, 10:14 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Why isn't it working? I can see one obvious reason it's not: the high-paying jobs aren't being acquired. Either no jobs at all, or jobs that pay too little. So either a) the supply of jobs needs to be increased, b) the pay of jobs needs to be better, or c) the expense of the education needs to be reduced. Or d) some or all of the above.

If Lender X is willing to loan $YY,YYY to W for a degree in Q, is Lender X willing to hire W for a salary of some reasonable ratio to $YY,YYY? If Lender X laughs uproariously at the notion, says Q is useless, and the starting pay for an employee with a degree is 1/10,000th of $YY,YYY...then perhaps Lender X is more of a parasite than a symbiont to society.
The government is Lender X in this scenario.

And my understanding is that most employers are more than happy to subsidize training for skills that actually increase their employee's productivity. The real problem is that the lender is kinda decoupled from the engines of productivity that their loans are supposed to be fueling. If this were about employers being able to issue government-backed education loans to improve the value of their own employees, the landscape would look a lot different.

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Old 17th November 2020, 10:15 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I said annoyed with, that's all.

I'm talking about rolling your eyes and grumbling a bit, not actively opposing it.
That's why I suggested a gesture towards community service. If these youngsters get their loans forgiven at least let them pick up some cigarette butts off the sidewalk, as something for the rest of us. Is that better than getting paid back for your own loans you repaid? Of course not. But it's better than nothing at all.
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Old 17th November 2020, 10:18 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Elvis666 View Post
Yep, college loan debt is not a new problem. I'm well into retirement and both my wife and I had to pay back thousands of dollars in loans. My kids worked their way though with a combination of scholarships and loans, and my wife and I took care of those, too. I see the reasoning behind cancelling the debt, but those of us who had to pay 10s of thousands out of our pockets see another, possibly more selfish, side.
Okay - take the amount you and your wife paid. Adjust for inflation. Your argument would be valid if that were the numbers we're talking about.

But that inflation adjusted number is not accurate anymore, because tuition rates have increased at about double the rate of inflation. Relative to mean income, college is more expensive now that when your kids went, and vastly more expensive than when you went.
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Old 17th November 2020, 10:18 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
That's why I suggested a gesture towards community service. If these youngsters get their loans forgiven at least let them pick up some cigarette butts off the sidewalk, as something for the rest of us. Is that better than getting paid back for your own loans you repaid? Of course not. But it's better than nothing at all.
Unless they die young, they pay through the course of their lives as a taxpayer.

The young are no more moochers for needing job training than the old whose infirmity rack up medical costs.
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Old 17th November 2020, 10:18 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The government is Lender X in this scenario.

And my understanding is that most employers are more than happy to subsidize training for skills that actually increase their employee's productivity.
And which training isn't usually in the same subjects most colleges offer degrees in.
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Old 17th November 2020, 10:22 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Unless they die young, they pay through the course of their lives as a taxpayer.
But we all do that. One can hardly claim that doing the bare minimum that's a) legally compulsory and b) done by everyone is somehow a meritorious payback for a benefit that not everyone got.

Quote:
The young are no more moochers for needing job training than the old whose infirmity rack up medical costs.
I didn't call them "moochers". Why are you so vehemently opposed to the notion that people make even a token gesture of service out of gratitude? Does your objection extend so far as to refuse to say "thank you" when you receive a gift? Do you shriek "SOCIETY OWES ME THIS!!!" and snatch the present out of Santa's mittened hands, when others get nothing at all?
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Old 17th November 2020, 10:26 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
But we all do that. One can hardly claim that doing the bare minimum that's a) legally compulsory and b) done by everyone is somehow a meritorious payback for a benefit that not everyone got.



I didn't call them "moochers". Why are you so vehemently opposed to the notion that people make even a token gesture of service out of gratitude? Does your objection extend so far as to refuse to say "thank you" when you receive a gift? Do you shriek "SOCIETY OWES ME THIS!!!" and snatch the present out of Santa's mittened hands, when others get nothing at all?
I object to it being considered a gift. Public spending isn't a gift. We're allegedly a democracy of free people deciding what's best for our society, not a nation of beggars relying on the largess of our betters. A token gesture of anything smacks of compelled speech.

I see no reason why this public spending need be accompanied by extraordinary gestures of groveling when others are not.
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Old 17th November 2020, 10:29 AM   #133
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Student loans aren't loans, since they are state-guaranteed.
That cancels the risk part of an actual loan, making it just a mechanism for the State to push number around on the budget.
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Old 17th November 2020, 10:32 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I object to it being considered a gift. Public spending isn't a gift. We're allegedly a democracy of free people deciding what's best for our society, not a nation of beggars relying on the largess of our betters.

I see no reason why this public spending need be accompanied by extraordinary gestures of groveling when others are not.
Ah, I see. You believe that being in a democracy entitles you to the benefits of the collective, but doesn't in return impose obligations to the rest. Not even the obligation of courtesy.

Since you want to get into the philosophy of democracy I'll just mention that a lot of people, including the ones who invented the damn thing, had ideals of service. We all contribute, we all benefit.
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Old 17th November 2020, 10:37 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
That's the way it use to be until the government changed it and made it impossible to discharge student loans.
The lack of bankruptcy is, in my opinion, key to the whole process.

I know why it was put into place. Kids were catching on that at 23, they could arrange for themselves to go bankrupt and suddenly they got free education. I knew one guy in college who was panicked when he got into an at-fault accident that caused injuries to the other driver and he didn't have insurance. (I don't remember the laws at the time, whether insurance was required, whether he was breaking the law by driving without it, or whether it was a case that he had insurance, but not enough. That's not important.) The point is that he was going to lose everything he had, except, he didn't have anything. He was a recent college grad, this would have been in 1985, and all he had was a pile of debt and a car. Well, the car was gone in the accident. He declared bankruptcy, and his loans were gone.

So, ok, they put a stop to that practice, but instead we got into a situation where an 18 year old decided to study literature and built up a debt that was literally impossible to pay off, even after he lost his low-wage job in the recession and found himself unable to pay the car loan. He could get free of the car loan, but the college debt will follow him to the grave.

If somebody over 18 years of age stood to lose some money in the event that the debtor could not pay, they would be cautious about who they gave the money to. This, in turn, might result in them refusing to give out as much money, which would mean that colleges would be under pressure to charge less, and eliminate the position of Assistant Dean for Student Relations.
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Old 17th November 2020, 10:37 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Efficient use of resources isn't a capitalist/socialist position, it's just basic common sense.

If you went 16,000 dollars (the current average debt at the time of graduation here in the US) into the hole to get a a degree in something that begins in "Liberal" and/or ends in "Studies" that's hardly my problem. You didn't learn a useful skill, you obtained knowledge which, again, you can get for free/pocket change in 2020.

Society has a duty to spend its overall resources on things that will return that investment. That's, again, not a capitalist/socialist position it's "not being intentionally stupid."

There's no Polysci 101 approved clustering of government ideals where society paying for people to go to college to get whatever degree "they" want to get makes sense.
I think you overestimate what portion of degrees sought fall under the description you propose. It sounds like a hasty generalization of "these millennials today with their gender studies and philosophy degrees"... to whatever extent that may be true, I suggest that there is a larger problem than that, which needs addressing.
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Old 17th November 2020, 10:38 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Ah, I see. You believe that being in a democracy entitles you to the benefits of the collective, but doesn't in return impose obligations to the rest. Not even the obligation of courtesy.

Since you want to get into the philosophy of democracy I'll just mention that a lot of people, including the ones who invented the damn thing, had ideals of service. We all contribute, we all benefit.
You're not talking about universal service here, you're talking about identifying and targeting specific populations and compelling them to genuflect in recognition of the nation's benevolence.

You want a civil service draft of all young Americans, go nuts. I'm averse to any policy that makes poor people apologize for being public burdens.
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Old 17th November 2020, 10:46 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
You're not talking about universal service here, you're talking about identifying and targeting specific populations and compelling them to genuflect in recognition of the nation's benevolence.

You want a civil service draft of all young Americans, go nuts. I'm averse to any policy that makes poor people apologize for being public burdens.
Again, you devalue work. Performing work for the public good is somehow a humiliation? Even when it's in exchange for a massive benefit?

Is any sort of work beneath these noble people who contracted monetary obligations they cannot meet? Perhaps they should be not only forgiven their debts but also issued state pensions for life, that they need not soil themselves with mere work! Expecting them to say "thanks" is equivalent to slavery!
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Old 17th November 2020, 10:51 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Again, you devalue work. Performing work for the public good is somehow a humiliation? Even when it's in exchange for a massive benefit?

Is any sort of work beneath these noble people who contracted monetary obligations they cannot meet? Perhaps they should be not only forgiven their debts but also issued state pensions for life, that they need not soil themselves with mere work! Expecting them to say "thanks" is equivalent to slavery!
What other segments of society should be targeted for compulsory labor to express gratitude to society? Should the elderly on Medicare be forced into caring for children and infants? Social Security beneficiaries? How about school children who receive K-12 education? Maybe we should bring back work houses for those that receive SNAP benefits. What you're suggesting is a major departure for how we generally view public spending which is not conditioned on citizens showing gratitude through labor.

Not all labor is equal. Compulsory labor has gone by many names over the ages, none of them considered good. I trust you can see the difference between the value of freely chosen labor and state mandated indentured servitude reserved for indebted Americans.

The point about free education is that it's beneficial for society as a whole. It's not a gift for these people solely out of kindness. It's a rising tide that generally benefits the entire nation.

Ironically, mandating compulsory menial labor would probably undermine any sincere sense of gratitude or patriotism these people might feel.
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Old 17th November 2020, 10:58 AM   #140
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It doesn't solve the question of existing debt, but I really do like the idea of national service being an option to access higher education. Extending the idea of the benefit given to veterans, but to other kinds of service than military.
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Old 17th November 2020, 11:00 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
What other segments of society should be targeted for compulsory labor to express gratitude to society? Should the elderly on Medicare be forced into caring for children and infants? Social Security beneficiaries? How about school children who receive K-12 education? Maybe we should bring back work houses for those that receive SNAP benefits. What you're suggesting is a major departure for how we generally view public spending which is not conditioned on citizens showing gratitude through labor.

Not all labor is equal. Compulsory labor has gone by many names over the ages, none of them considered good. I trust you can see the difference between the value of freely chosen labor and state mandated indentured servitude reserved for indebted Americans.

The point about free education is that it's beneficial for society as a whole. It's not a gift for these people solely out of kindness. It's a rising tide that generally benefits the entire nation.
I was talking about people who are getting (if this happens) their student loans forgiven. Jesus Christ, you really think that asking anything in exchange is too much? Society must eat those debts without the slightest thing in exchange? It's "indentured servitude" to ask for a little light community service?

If you were in charge of dispensing public funds I'd apply for a billion dollar grant. For nothing. And you wouldn't demand anything in exchange, of course. Because that would be...what, Nazis? Slavery?
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Old 17th November 2020, 11:02 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
How exactly does it do that? This isn't a zero sum game. I don't see how helping college students hurts anyone.
It removes the obligation of debt from those most capable of paying it back, thus adding them into the market of things like homebuying that those who did not have this windfall will now have to compete with. Those that went to trade schools or have private debt will continue their burden and now have a 50k lower bidding value to peers. Peers that by and large already have a bigger salary. I am sure you can come up with other ideas as well.

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Old 17th November 2020, 11:07 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I was talking about people who are getting (if this happens) their student loans forgiven. Jesus Christ, you really think that asking anything in exchange is too much? Society must eat those debts without the slightest thing in exchange? It's "indentured servitude" to ask for a little light community service?

If you were in charge of dispensing public funds I'd apply for a billion dollar grant. For nothing. And you wouldn't demand anything in exchange, of course. Because that would be...what, Nazis? Slavery?
What is the reasoning for forgiving the debt? I suppose that really frames what response you expect.

If it's because it's mean to these people, and you pity them, then sure, they should have to do a couple tricks to earn their gift.

If it's because the debt burden is detrimental to our society and is putting a burden on our economy, then there's really no moral reasoning at play.

These people will pay back their debt by participating more vigorously in the economy. Free from inescapable debt, many of these people will repay by investing in their careers, participating more fully in the economy as a consumer, and make decisions that aren't inhibited by immediate, crushing debt.

Whether or not I'd grant your billion dollar grant would depend on whether or not I thought it was in the public good, not whether I expected you to be thankful for it. Outcomes, not attitudes.
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Old 17th November 2020, 11:07 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
It doesn't solve the question of existing debt, but I really do like the idea of national service being an option to access higher education. Extending the idea of the benefit given to veterans, but to other kinds of service than military.
It was during the Clinton years. I don't remember how long it lasted. I think Bush ended the program.
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Old 17th November 2020, 11:07 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
How exactly does it do that? This isn't a zero sum game. I don't see how helping college students hurts anyone.
Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
That is probably the worst example that is being shared around. They want the trolley moved for them and then immediately put back on track to roll over the class of 2022+. And then claim those behind (and in front but not mentioned, because, ya know, we'll fix that later) are being selfish if they don't celebrate their good luck.
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Old 17th November 2020, 11:09 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
That is probably the worst example that is being shared around. They want the trolley moved for them and then immediately put back on track to roll over the class of 2022+. And then claim those behind (and in front but not mentioned, because, ya know, we'll fix that later) are being selfish if they don't celebrate their good luck.
I'm trying to imagine the miniscule niche of people that support student debt relief that also don't want to reform our current system.

Dealing with the immediate damage is often the first step of a resolving a systematic problem.
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Old 17th November 2020, 11:13 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
That is probably the worst example that is being shared around. They want the trolley moved for them and then immediately put back on track to roll over the class of 2022+. And then claim those behind (and in front but not mentioned, because, ya know, we'll fix that later) are being selfish if they don't celebrate their good luck.
This simply is not true. You continue to assert without evidence that canceling student debt today hurts those that didn't have it canceled.
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Old 17th November 2020, 11:22 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'm trying to imagine the miniscule niche of people that support student debt relief that also don't want to reform our current system.

Dealing with the immediate damage is often the first step of a resolving a systematic problem.
Yes, and those same people think that money is unlimited and that it will all come from "the rich". If they are so in favor of this, allow them to continue paying the debt they have willingly accepted, and that 1.7$ trillion in value can be reallocated to make public college education free for the next 25 years. I am sure the graduating class of 2021 is happy with that setup so the starting 2022 class will live worry free.


Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
This simply is not true. You continue to assert without evidence that canceling student debt today hurts those that didn't have it canceled.
I need evidence to assert that higher earning workers being given 50k will cause competition and higher costs in a already competitive housing market? When I think on it more this might be another boomer and owner class handout. Instead of the loans being paid back to the government, there will be money flowing into retirement funds and homes, inflating both values for the baby boomer retirement that is incoming.
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Old 17th November 2020, 11:23 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Unless they die young, they pay through the course of their lives as a taxpayer.
This seems circular. Why do they need a loan? To get a college degree. Why do they need a college degree? To get a job. Why do they need a job? To earn money and pay taxes. Why do they need to pay taxes? To pay off their loan. Why do they need a loan?
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Old 17th November 2020, 11:25 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This seems circular. Why do they need a loan? To get a college degree. Why do they need a college degree? To get a job. Why do they need a job? To earn money and pay taxes. Why do they need to pay taxes? To pay off their loan. Why do they need a loan?
Yes, the economy is circular. People contribute and withdraw from the public purse at various points in their lives. The purpose of the economy is to perpetuate itself while providing for the needs of the public.

We put money into education so children can meaningfully contribute to the economy as adults. It's preferable than having a bunch of poor, illiterate people that can't perform meaningfully valuable work for the entirety of their lives. It's almost as if investing money up front reaps rewards in the long run. This has the benefit of having a workforce of people that can actually provide the skilled labor that a modern economy needs to be competitive with the rest of the world.

I'm glad we're on the same page.
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Old 17th November 2020, 11:32 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's not the nation's wealth, though.
That's arguable. Even the wealth derived from MLM scamming benefits from the existence of public services. It's not binary.
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Old 17th November 2020, 11:35 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
That's arguable. Even the wealth derived from MLM scamming benefits from the existence of public services. It's not binary.
I mean, it's not even arguable. When it comes to assessing the wealth of nations, economists include private capital. GDP isn't just what the government does. Business that occurs in this country's market is part of the nation's wealth, full stop.

Private wealth is very much on the table when it comes to policy about taxation and social spending.
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Old 17th November 2020, 11:35 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Clearly you're not being productive enough to pay off your debt to the people who invested in your productivity.
You are not being paid enough because you are not being productive and you define being productive as getting paid enough.

Cool!

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Old 17th November 2020, 11:37 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post

I need evidence to assert that higher earning workers being given 50k will cause competition and higher costs in a already competitive housing market? When I think on it more this might be another boomer and owner class handout. Instead of the loans being paid back to the government, there will be money flowing into retirement funds and homes, inflating both values for the baby boomer retirement that is incoming.
Higher earnings workers? This not necessarily true. Much of the student debt that has been accrued is by lower income individuals who attended community colleges and for profit schools.
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Old 17th November 2020, 11:39 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'm trying to imagine the miniscule niche of people that support student debt relief that also don't want to reform our current system.
Joe Biden?

Quote:
Dealing with the immediate damage is often the first step of a resolving a systematic problem.
Yeah, but it shouldn't be the first step in planning the resolution.

I'd be much more in favor of student debt relief proposals if they were presented as an appendix to a comprehensive plan for systematic reform.

"The current system has screwed over a generation. Here's my plan to reform the system and give the next generation a better choice. And obviously we're going to rescue the current victims of the bad system."

Proposals to simply forgive the debt, without any serious discussion of reforming the system, is just bad governance. You'd think that after forty years of experience in national government, Joe Biden would know better than this.
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Old 17th November 2020, 11:42 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Joe Biden?



Yeah, but it shouldn't be the first step in planning the resolution.

I'd be much more in favor of student debt relief proposals if they were presented as an appendix to a comprehensive plan for systematic reform.

"The current system has screwed over a generation. Here's my plan to reform the system and give the next generation a better choice. And obviously we're going to rescue the current victims of the bad system."

Proposals to simply forgive the debt, without any serious discussion of reforming the system, is just bad governance. You'd think that after forty years of experience in national government, Joe Biden would know better than this.
Except the GOP doesn't address the nation's problems. They do nothing. They don't compromise and it's damn clear they don't care to help anyone but their wealthy benefactors.
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Old 17th November 2020, 11:42 AM   #157
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Having paid all my student loans and having funded my kids' school, I find the most distasteful part of this conversation is that the government is willing to hand out hundreds of thousands of dollars in loans to someone with no credit who has proven that they are not the best recipient of such largess by not getting into a competitive state school.

I can fully get behind the government lending students the money required to cover in-state tuition at public schools and the minimal living expenses needed in their area. For the University of Texas that comes out to be $30k per year. Ohio State comes out pretty close. UC Berkley is at about $40k. Maryland was about $30k. (Hint: Search "cost of attendance" for any school and they have to have it laid out pretty clearly.) I think most states have at least one, if not many, high quality state schools that fall into that general range of cost for in-state tuition.

I fully support the government lending money to students who qualify to go to such schools on an in-state basis. But that should be the cap. If you want to go out of state or to a private school the loans provided by the tax payer should be capped at the amount of the closest local state school's in-state cost of attendance.

If you can't get into the local state school, then I really don't think the tax payer should be subsidizing your education at a more expensive private school or out of state tuition. You have not yet shown that further investment in your education will bear significant fruit. Go to community college (which should be nearly free, but I get that is a separate issue) and either prove that you are a better student than the current evidence provides or learn a good trade.

Further, much of this would be less of an issue if we had a higher minimum wage. There is no reason a history major or even a high school graduate should be working 40 hours a week and still be unable to put a roof over their heads and food on the table.

ETA: The typos throughout all of my posts are meant to prove that college education is overrated.
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Old 17th November 2020, 11:43 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Joe Biden?



Yeah, but it shouldn't be the first step in planning the resolution.

I'd be much more in favor of student debt relief proposals if they were presented as an appendix to a comprehensive plan for systematic reform.

"The current system has screwed over a generation. Here's my plan to reform the system and give the next generation a better choice. And obviously we're going to rescue the current victims of the bad system."

Proposals to simply forgive the debt, without any serious discussion of reforming the system, is just bad governance. You'd think that after forty years of experience in national government, Joe Biden would know better than this.
Fair enough, this is exactly the kind of incoherence I've come to expect from the modern Democratic party. It's a strange party that occasionally recognizes the problems ailing our society, but is ideologically opposed to any of the real solutions that might address them, so you just get these incoherent half-measures and token gestures.

It's probably why reactionary politics are so appealing right now, if this is the best that is on offer.
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Old 17th November 2020, 11:49 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Student loans aren't loans, since they are state-guaranteed.
That cancels the risk part of an actual loan, making it just a mechanism for the State to push number around on the budget.
It doesn't cancel the risk, though. It just lays it off on the taxpayer, who's risking money on a government program that may or may not pay off. In this case, it's not paying off. But the risk doesn't go away just because the State pushes numbers around on a budget and says "there's no risk if there's no debt!"
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Old 17th November 2020, 11:52 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Fair enough, this is exactly the kind of incoherence I've come to expect from the modern Democratic party. It's a strange party that occasionally recognizes the problems ailing our society, but is ideologically opposed to any of the real solutions that might address them, so you just get these incoherent half-measures and token gestures.

It's probably why reactionary politics are so appealing right now, if this is the best that is on offer.
Hey, I'm not in favor of canceling debt by EOs. That said, the GOP manifestly refuses to address any of the ills that face this country.

It's all laissez faire and let the markets and private enterprise solve everything all the while knowing it won't and can't. This is why over 600 house bills sit on McConnell's desk and never even get a hearing in the US Senate.
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