IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 17th November 2020, 11:54 AM   #161
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 58,203
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
If it's because it's mean to these people, and you pity them, then sure, they should have to do a couple tricks to earn their gift.
Perhaps the reason we have such problems with education in the first place is because people expect to get something for nothing and that the slightest hint of doing something productive in exchange is insulting to them! Working in exchange for money is kind of the point of getting the education in the first place, isn't it? Debt forgiveness is just not having to pay back the money owed, it's not a permanent dispensation from all social obligations.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2020, 11:59 AM   #162
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 6,807
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Perhaps the reason we have such problems with education in the first place is because people expect to get something for nothing and that the slightest hint of doing something productive in exchange is insulting to them! Working in exchange for money is kind of the point of getting the education in the first place, isn't it? Debt forgiveness is just not having to pay back the money owed, it's not a permanent dispensation from all social obligations.
Every single person in this country is getting "something for nothing" all the time. That's living in a society. Unless you live in some an-cap hellscape, we all take advantage of public goods that we did not personally "earn" beyond existing and paying taxes.

I see no reason to single students out for special gratitude-signaling work. They did nothing wrong other than attempting to follow the path that everyone their whole life has been assuring them would lead to gainful employment. How dare these children believe their teachers, their parents, and their government when taking these loans.

It's time that we admit that the current system has failed, that many decent people are trapped in debt that far exceeds any personal failings, and that the whole system needs to be reformed, starting with immediate relief for those trapped in inescapable debt.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 17th November 2020 at 12:09 PM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2020, 12:10 PM   #163
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 49,898
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Perhaps the reason we have such problems with education in the first place is because people expect to get something for nothing and that the slightest hint of doing something productive in exchange is insulting to them! Working in exchange for money is kind of the point of getting the education in the first place, isn't it? Debt forgiveness is just not having to pay back the money owed, it's not a permanent dispensation from all social obligations.
That is why socialized universal medicine will never work. People shouldn't just expect to get some life saving treatment for free and not have an obligation to earn it. That is why american medical care is morally superior to all other countries.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2020, 12:31 PM   #164
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 58,203
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Every single person in this country is getting "something for nothing" all the time. That's living in a society. Unless you live in some an-cap hellscape, we all take advantage of public goods that we did not personally "earn" beyond existing and paying taxes.
We all benefit, and we all contribute. You're omitting the second half of the equation. If we don't all contribute then there are no benefits to be had. If too many people extract benefits without contributing then everything ends.


Quote:
I see no reason to single students out for special gratitude-signaling work.
I'm only "singling them out" because this thread is about them. I'm entirely against student loan forgiveness for people who never had student loans. Aren't you?

Part of being in a civilized society is contributing. It doesn't have to be exactly equal to what you benefit; indeed, ideally one should contribute more than one benefits so as to make up for those who cannot contribute. Note: "cannot" contribute, not equivalent to "think they are too good to contribute because work is beneath them".

If someone is too proud to pick up litter then surely they are too proud to accept debt relief at the public's expense. Pride is expensive.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2020, 12:33 PM   #165
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 58,203
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
That is why socialized universal medicine will never work. People shouldn't just expect to get some life saving treatment for free and not have an obligation to earn it. That is why american medical care is morally superior to all other countries.
It's my understanding that socialized medicine, even in the self-congratulatory superior nations, is actually paid for by taxing the entire public. Everyone contributes, everyone benefits.

Or are your doctors, nurses, and medical staff slaves? And the supplies and resources used seized from the suppliers without compensation?
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2020, 12:34 PM   #166
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 21,672
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Regardless of the worth of the thing the debt was for, I think it's reasonable that people getting debt forgiveness from society should do something in exchange that benefits that society. Community service, for example. It needn't be a dollar-for-dollar accounting, but even if it's only a minimal gesture I think it should be made. People get mad when they perceive other people "getting something for nothing", I think a token of appreciation would go a long way to smoothing the sell. It's just good manners.
I think that this is generally a good idea, but the implementation is tough. I'd rather we simply paid people a living wage to do **** work that needs to be done, or that we would like to have done. I would be really happy if it was stupid easy for a ex-con or high school dropout to get an easy job picking up trash along the side of the freeway or cleaning toilets for local government offices for a decent amount of money. I would be even happier if it came with retirement benefits and health benefits. If you can't afford your student loans, then get such a job and then you can start to make some payments.

Instead we contract out such things to third parties who hire hourly workers at minimum wage on a part time basis and all we get out of the deal is more pressure for illegal labor, more people on welfare, more people unemployed, and more people on medicaid because the minimum wage sucks. Joy, the city saved $250,000 a year on litter cleanup by outsourcing, but it ends up costing the taxpayer $500,000 elsewhere. Fiscal conservatives for the WIN!
__________________
Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa

If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.

Last edited by Dr. Keith; 17th November 2020 at 12:35 PM.
Dr. Keith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2020, 12:36 PM   #167
rdwight
Muse
 
rdwight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 734
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Higher earnings workers? This not necessarily true. Much of the student debt that has been accrued is by lower income individuals who attended community colleges and for profit schools.
Source? Because according to the Urban Institute -

Quote:
According to our updated analysis of the Survey of Consumer Finances for 2016 (the best available data, though imperfect), the most affluent households—the top 25 percent of households with the highest earnings—held 34 percent of all outstanding education debt. The top 10 percent of households, with incomes of $173,000 or higher, held 11 percent of the debt.

This debt represents loans for both current and past students and is a combination of students borrowing for their own education and parents or grandparents borrowing to help their children or grandchildren pay for college.

Households in the lowest income quartile (with household incomes of $27,000 or less) hold only 12 percent of outstanding education debt. In other words, education debt is disproportionately concentrated among the well off.

I haven't seen any studies that don't share this breakdown. If the plan was targeted at helping those 12 percent (190 billion or so) then I could at least understand it.
rdwight is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2020, 12:42 PM   #168
Elvis666
Muse
 
Elvis666's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 507
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Having paid all my student loans and having funded my kids' school, I find the most distasteful part of this conversation is that the government is willing to hand out hundreds of thousands of dollars in loans to someone with no credit who has proven that they are not the best recipient of such largess by not getting into a competitive state school.
Thank you. You put this into words much more clearly than I could.
__________________
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
Elvis666 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2020, 12:48 PM   #169
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 23,901
Maybe the real problem, as if there was just one, real, problem, is that people think of government money as pretty much free. Heck, I'm darned near convinced myself. After being a "deficit hawk" my whole life, but seeing that grand spending on a gigantic scale doesn't seem to have destroyed us yet, maybe it's true.

Forgive the loans and the only thing that happens is that government loses some revenue, and so has to borrow more money to fund programs. Apparently there's no real limit to that.

I think the only reason student debt forgiveness is taken seriously is that people don't see the connection between their own money and the debt forgiveness. If it doesn't affect me, why should I care that someone else's government loan gets forgiven?
__________________
Yes, yes. I know you're right, but would it hurt you to actually provide some information?
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2020, 12:50 PM   #170
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 6,807
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
We all benefit, and we all contribute. You're omitting the second half of the equation. If we don't all contribute then there are no benefits to be had. If too many people extract benefits without contributing then everything ends.




I'm only "singling them out" because this thread is about them. I'm entirely against student loan forgiveness for people who never had student loans. Aren't you?

Part of being in a civilized society is contributing. It doesn't have to be exactly equal to what you benefit; indeed, ideally one should contribute more than one benefits so as to make up for those who cannot contribute. Note: "cannot" contribute, not equivalent to "think they are too good to contribute because work is beneath them".

If someone is too proud to pick up litter then surely they are too proud to accept debt relief at the public's expense. Pride is expensive.
Looking forward to everyone else being ordered to compulsory work based on their particular consumption of public goods. Surely you don't just intend for students to have this special privilege to show their gratitude, right?

Anyone that drives on public roads should be compelled to work on a tarring crew to contribute. Everyone that consumes medical care on Medicaid or Medicare should be compelled to clean bed pans to contribute. Anyone who ever needs police, fire, or ems crews should have give their labor in a show of gratitude. If paying taxes alone isn't good enough for students, it surely must not be good enough for everyone else who consumes public goods. I trust you're not trying to deprive everyone else of this great honor to show gratitude.

Or, you know, they can all just pay taxes as part of the collective. Trying to single out groups that need to demonstrate their gratitude strikes me as needlessly petty and divisive. These students are members of our society just like everyone else and are due the dignity and support of any other citizen.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2020, 12:51 PM   #171
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 6,807
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Maybe the real problem, as if there was just one, real, problem, is that people think of government money as pretty much free. Heck, I'm darned near convinced myself. After being a "deficit hawk" my whole life, but seeing that grand spending on a gigantic scale doesn't seem to have destroyed us yet, maybe it's true.

Forgive the loans and the only thing that happens is that government loses some revenue, and so has to borrow more money to fund programs. Apparently there's no real limit to that.

I think the only reason student debt forgiveness is taken seriously is that people don't see the connection between their own money and the debt forgiveness. If it doesn't affect me, why should I care that someone else's government loan gets forgiven?
No, it's quite clearly only free when cutting taxes for the wealthy or starting multi-decade wars with no chance of success. When it comes to social spending that will pay for itself many times over, every penny must be scrutinized.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2020, 01:05 PM   #172
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 49,898
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It's my understanding that socialized medicine, even in the self-congratulatory superior nations, is actually paid for by taxing the entire public. Everyone contributes, everyone benefits.


They also tend to have free or very inexpensive higher education something that clearly fails for them as well.

Here is the thing, student loans often have relatively high interest rates, can't be dealt with in bankruptcy and are backed by the government. A real free money investment on the part of those who issue them.

And few to no one is talking about wholesale writing off the debts with out any compensation.

Quote:
Or are your doctors, nurses, and medical staff slaves? And the supplies and resources used seized from the suppliers without compensation?
Yes that really is how medical care works in the US thank you for pointing that out. We need to clearly get rid of those silly laws forcing medical staff to treat patients with out regard to their ability to pay. You have found the main immorality in american healthcare right there. Letting the poor die is the more moral solution.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2020, 01:07 PM   #173
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 23,901
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
No, it's quite clearly only free when cutting taxes for the wealthy or starting multi-decade wars with no chance of success. When it comes to social spending that will pay for itself many times over, every penny must be scrutinized.
It's true. Our spending is free, but theirs is pickpocketting the American people.

In the case of loan forgiveness though, I can't see how it could possibly fall into the category of paying for itself many times over. The loan recipients don't seem to be able to pay it one time over, much less many times.

I suppose you could say that the success stories from student loans paid their own loans back, plus made a bunch of extra money on which they paid taxes, thus paying back the government many times over, enough to fund the ones who are defaulting now.


In the serious vein, the more I think about it, the more I think that allowing people to discharge the debt via bankruptcy is the way to go. Those people who can't pay it back don't have to. Those people for whom their loan was a profitable investment can continue to pay it back.
__________________
Yes, yes. I know you're right, but would it hurt you to actually provide some information?
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2020, 01:07 PM   #174
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 49,898
Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
I haven't seen any studies that don't share this breakdown. If the plan was targeted at helping those 12 percent (190 billion or so) then I could at least understand it.
And then you have someone who is poor and makes the mistake of thinking an ivy league education is a ticket to the middle class and racks up a cool hundred thousand dollars in education debt for a masters degree in neuro science.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2020, 01:17 PM   #175
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 28,696
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Or, you know, they can all just pay taxes as part of the collective. Trying to single out groups that need to demonstrate their gratitude strikes me as needlessly petty and divisive. These students are members of our society just like everyone else and are due the dignity and support of any other citizen.
Oh for the love of...

THEY'RE THE ONES ASKING FOR MONEY! How is anyone doing any signling out?

Jesus Christ you're like a parody of a parody of socialism at this point.


"Give me free money with no strings attached and don't expect me to pay it back."

"No."

"OMG STOP SINGLING ME OUT AND ASKING ME TO GROVEL BEFORE YOU! I HAVE MY DIGNITY SIR!"


Oh and let me make a psychic prediction here. Your response will be a random rant about super rich people with 27 yachts that will have nothing to do with anything anyone has said.
__________________
- No, someone having reality and facts on their side does not mean they have been given an unfair advantage and it is not a bias against you. You're just wrong.
- There is no Overton Window for facts.

Last edited by JoeMorgue; 17th November 2020 at 01:18 PM.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2020, 01:20 PM   #176
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 49,898
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Oh for the love of...

THEY'RE THE ONES ASKING FOR MONEY! How is anyone doing any signling out?

Jesus Christ you're like a parody of a parody of socialism at this point.


"Give me free money with no strings attached and don't expect me to pay it back."

"No."

"OMG STOP SINGLING ME OUT AND ASKING ME TO GROVEL BEFORE YOU! I HAVE MY DIGNITY SIR!"


Oh and let me make a psychic prediction here. Your response will be a random rant about super rich people with 27 yachts that will have nothing to do with anything anyone has said.
They are as bad as those behind that SCHIP law. Lazy good for nothings.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2020, 01:25 PM   #177
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 6,807
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Oh for the love of...

THEY'RE THE ONES ASKING FOR MONEY! How is anyone doing any signling out?

Jesus Christ you're like a parody of a parody of socialism at this point.


"Give me free money with no strings attached and don't expect me to pay it back."

"No."

"OMG STOP SINGLING ME OUT AND ASKING ME TO GROVEL BEFORE YOU! I HAVE MY DIGNITY SIR!"


Oh and let me make a psychic prediction here. Your response will be a random rant about super rich people with 27 yachts that will have nothing to do with anything anyone has said.
Sure, they're asking for the money. Just like the people asking for relief from medical debt, or the people asking for universal healthcare, or the people asking for increased minimum wage, or hungry children who want food, or poor people who want homes, wage guarantees during emergencies, or anything else.

The government literally exists to allocate public resources for the public good. It may seem odd because our system so rarely actually does much to actually improve the material conditions of ordinary people, but we shouldn't be treating the government actually caring about the public good as some Jubilee. I know it seems odd because our society is increasingly becoming an austerity hellscape where people live and die in service to fantasies of rugged individualism, but try to imagine a government that actually prioritized the public good when it came to spending money.

Please remind me the last time any wealthy person had to do anything at all to justify their massive handouts. Decades of redistributive policies to further enrich the wealthy and I don't think a single soda can or cigarette butt has been picked up in community service. Where's the gratitude?

The recent round of tax cuts for the wealthy cost 300 billion more than student loan forgiveness would cost. This has nothing to do with gratitude and everything to do with who wields power in our system.

Asking is a mistake. Working people need to be in a position to demand it. It's a long term project.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 17th November 2020 at 01:36 PM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2020, 01:52 PM   #178
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 58,203
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
They also tend to have free or very inexpensive higher education something that clearly fails for them as well.

Here is the thing, student loans often have relatively high interest rates, can't be dealt with in bankruptcy and are backed by the government. A real free money investment on the part of those who issue them.

And few to no one is talking about wholesale writing off the debts with out any compensation.



Yes that really is how medical care works in the US thank you for pointing that out. We need to clearly get rid of those silly laws forcing medical staff to treat patients with out regard to their ability to pay. You have found the main immorality in american healthcare right there. Letting the poor die is the more moral solution.
For the love of Christ, not everything is about everything. I'm in favor of education reform. (And universal, state-paid healthcare, by the way. Which is not relevant to this thread.) The big controversial thing I'm suggesting is that maybe some people deriving an extra bonus benefit from the collective ought to make an extra bonus effort as a nice gesture. How the effing eff that turns into being "kill the poors" is clearly an internet thing.

If you have nothing to contribute beyond leaping into a conversation in progress to start hurling hyperbolic nonsense then perhaps you ought to either a) read all the posts already made in that thread or b) just don't contribute. You can be one of those free riders who benefits but doesn't contribute-- I'm willing to extend a special dispensation if this is the nature of your contributions.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2020, 01:53 PM   #179
crescent
Illuminator
 
crescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,835
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
It's true. Our spending is free, but theirs is pickpocketting the American people.

In the case of loan forgiveness though, I can't see how it could possibly fall into the category of paying for itself many times over. The loan recipients don't seem to be able to pay it one time over, much less many times.

I suppose you could say that the success stories from student loans paid their own loans back, plus made a bunch of extra money on which they paid taxes, thus paying back the government many times over, enough to fund the ones who are defaulting now.


In the serious vein, the more I think about it, the more I think that allowing people to discharge the debt via bankruptcy is the way to go. Those people who can't pay it back don't have to. Those people for whom their loan was a profitable investment can continue to pay it back.

You have a lot of good points here.

One thing to think about is that most people pay off their loans okay - but others are dissuaded from secondary education by the cost. We're really just covering those who cannot pay, with the hopes that more poor people are now confident to try for college, knowing they have less risk of financial ruin for doing so. This is an investment in our society at the core level - its people.

The other key thing - this is the third time I've mentioned this - is that we don't know what it takes (or will take) to qualify for loan forgiveness. It seems like there is an expectation that the borrower make the effort to pay it back, at least for a decade or so. This may be akin to bankruptcy, implemented only for those who have no assets and who have already tried everything else.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And then you have someone who is poor and makes the mistake of thinking an ivy league education is a ticket to the middle class and racks up a cool hundred thousand dollars in education debt for a masters degree in neuro science.

And those loans would not be covered under Biden's plan. Government loans (Ford and Stafford and others I probably don't know about) at State or local government schools only. No Ivy league, no expensive private schools, no fly-by-night teleschools like those advertised on late-night TV.

I would hope that this could cover trade schools as well. I mean, some of it obviously does on some places, as Trade Schools are often embedded in Community Colleges, and those are covered. I'm not sure if covered under the loan forgiveness, but covered under the free tuition for lower income people that's mentioned in the seventh post of this thread. Unfortunately That aspect of trade school/community college seems to vary pretty wildly from state to state, as best I can tell.

Last edited by crescent; 17th November 2020 at 01:58 PM.
crescent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2020, 01:58 PM   #180
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 58,203
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Sure, they're asking for the money. Just like the people asking for relief from medical debt, or the people asking for universal healthcare, or the people asking for increased minimum wage, or hungry children who want food, or poor people who want homes, wage guarantees during emergencies, or anything else.
It's not "just like" those people though: a postsecondary degree is not a necessity, unlike food, shelter, and medicine. Some people think it's a necessity (which is one of the problems) but it's not. Tiffany-Amber's getting a B.A. in Communications is not equivalent to Mrs Jones getting a heart valve replacement.

Quote:
The government literally exists to allocate public resources for the public good.
I agree. And it's able to do this because each individual that makes up that public contributes to the whole. If they are able to, anyway. Like a sort of...social contract, if you can imagine such a thing.

Quote:
Please remind me the last time any wealthy person had to do anything at all to justify their massive handouts. Decades of redistributive policies to further enrich the wealthy and I don't think a single soda can or cigarette butt has been picked up in community service. Where's the gratitude?
I agree, the wealthy get too much, it's disproportionate to their contribution. But I don't see that that problem has to be fixed before education financing reform can be attempted. I can splint your broken arm even if I can't treat your cancer. Solving one problem at a time works better, generally, than attempting to solve all problems simultaneously.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2020, 02:06 PM   #181
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 6,807
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post


I agree, the wealthy get too much, it's disproportionate to their contribution. But I don't see that that problem has to be fixed before education financing reform can be attempted. I can splint your broken arm even if I can't treat your cancer. Solving one problem at a time works better, generally, than attempting to solve all problems simultaneously.
Does it? People have been talking about the exploding cost of higher education for decades. Likewise people have been talking about our failed health care system. Minor tweaks may be on offer, but nothing that will actually address the fundamental failures of the way we allocate these resources.

I think political history has plenty of examples of slow, incremental reform. It also has plenty of examples of dam bursting events, where broad reform occurs in fell swoops. I imagine it's hard to know which is which except in hindsight.


Kicking the can down the road can only go on so long. To be honest, I can easily see such aloofness to the very real concerns of ordinary people being the death knell of the Democratic party as we know it, if not the country.

Why do you think so many people were attracted to a proto fascist like Trump? Why is a strong-man that's going to stick it to out of touch elites a message that resonates with so many? Sure, he didn't deliver, the fascists never do, but the promises remain alluring. Spitting into the face of working people who have real problems is not the road to a stable, healthy society.



A less pessimistic future is that many more of these corporatist ghouls get primaried out of office and it becomes clear that the party has to change to be more responsive to ordinary people's needs.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 17th November 2020 at 02:09 PM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2020, 02:08 PM   #182
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 49,898
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It's not "just like" those people though: a postsecondary degree is not a necessity, unlike food, shelter, and medicine. Some people think it's a necessity (which is one of the problems) but it's not. Tiffany-Amber's getting a B.A. in Communications is not equivalent to Mrs Jones getting a heart valve replacement.
Yep only those from deserving families should have the option to have the education high paying jobs require. You have to keep people in their proper class after all. It wouldn't do for someone from the lower classes to try to join academia for example.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2020, 02:11 PM   #183
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 49,898
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
A less pessimistic future is that many more of these corporatist ghouls get primaried out of office and it becomes clear that the party has to change to be more responsive to ordinary people's needs.
As long as you can convince some of the ordinary people that other non deserving people will get some benefit to reform you can always get them to tear each other apart. Health care shows that just like education in this country compared to most any other developed country.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2020, 02:13 PM   #184
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 58,203
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Does it? People have been talking about the exploding cost of higher education for decades. Likewise people have been talking about our failed health care system. Minor tweaks may be on offer, but nothing that will actually address the fundamental failures of the way we allocate these resources.

I think political history has plenty of examples of slow, incremental reform. It also has plenty of examples of dam bursting events, where broad reform occurs in fell swoops. I imagine it's hard to know in the moment what kind of scenario it is.

Kicking the can down the road can only go on so long. To be honest, I can easily see such aloofness to the very real concerns of ordinary people being the death knell of the Democratic party as we know it, if not the country.

Why do you think so many people were attracted to a proto fascist like Trump? Why is a strong-man that's going to stick it to out of touch elites a message that resonates. Sure, he didn't deliver, the fascists never do, but the promises remain alluring.

A less pessimistic future is that many more of these corporatist ghouls get primaried out of office and it becomes clear that the party has to change to be more responsive to ordinary people's needs.
So it's revolution or nothing, eh? I can't imagine how you're going to topple capitalism if you think picking up roadside litter is too extreme an effort.

As for complaining about the Democratic Party, their slow incremental changes actually happen, unlike this internet rhetoric. Joe Biden knocking one third of one percent off the interest due on federally-subsidized student loans for the first six quarters after graduation would have more real-world effect than every post you've made here. Good luck with the revolution, comrade.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2020, 02:15 PM   #185
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 49,898
Originally Posted by crescent View Post
And those loans would not be covered under Biden's plan. Government loans (Ford and Stafford and others I probably don't know about) at State or local government schools only. No Ivy league, no expensive private schools, no fly-by-night teleschools like those advertised on late-night TV.
My wife went from homeless to working as a waitress to going to a serious of schools and getting advanced degrees to try to join academia. But they really don't have space for people working while going through school and other such things with out even getting into the adjunct situation. So we have hundred some odd thousands of dollars in student loans at 6%.

And yes we know this program will not help us but it gives us some strong feelings on the matter.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2020, 02:15 PM   #186
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 58,203
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yep only those from deserving families should have the option to have the education high paying jobs require. You have to keep people in their proper class after all. It wouldn't do for someone from the lower classes to try to join academia for example.
Sweetie, darling, I mean this in the nicest way possible: irony requires a degree of subtlety. A scalpel, a poignard, a rapier. Your sledgehammery does far more damage to your arguments than to the things you're trying to attack.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2020, 02:17 PM   #187
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 23,901
Originally Posted by crescent View Post
The other key thing - this is the third time I've mentioned this - is that we don't know what it takes (or will take) to qualify for loan forgiveness. It seems like there is an expectation that the borrower make the effort to pay it back, at least for a decade or so. This may be akin to bankruptcy, implemented only for those who have no assets and who have already tried everything else.
I guess I haven't paid attention to Biden's plan. (I was an enthusiastic supporter of Biden during this election, but that was based on his promise to not be Donald Trump. Nothing he actually said made any difference to me.) I'm just going by things I have heard Democratic politicians say in the past.

If he has a plan that includes loan forgiveness for people who are low income despite having borrowed money for college, or some variation thereof, then that seems, in principle, like a good idea. If they can't pay their loans, we don't want that thing hanging over them when they're 50. No one really benefits from that. And, like you say, it's a bit like bankruptcy, but it doesn't screw the other lenders at the same time. If they are up to their ears in debt, giving up on the portion owed to Uncle Sam first doesn't seem like a bad idea.
__________________
Yes, yes. I know you're right, but would it hurt you to actually provide some information?
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2020, 02:17 PM   #188
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 49,898
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Sweetie, darling, I mean this in the nicest way possible: irony requires a degree of subtlety. A scalpel, a poignard, a rapier. Your sledgehammery does far more damage to your arguments than to the things you're trying to attack.
IT is just the clear effect of the policies you are endorsing. Clearly we deserve the student debt more than our mortgage because she listened to advice about how education was the way out of poverty. Fools for thinking there is a way out of poverty it is just a higher income poverty.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2020, 02:20 PM   #189
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 58,203
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
IT is just the clear effect of the policies you are endorsing. Clearly we deserve the student debt more than our mortgage because she listened to advice about how education was the way out of poverty. Fools for thinking there is a way out of poverty it is just a higher income poverty.
You don't even know what policies I'm endorsing! I'm in favor of debt forgiveness and reforming the educational system to make borrowing unnecessary! The horrific controversy is that I think there should be a token gesture at community service along with it.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2020, 02:25 PM   #190
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 6,807
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
So it's revolution or nothing, eh? I can't imagine how you're going to topple capitalism if you think picking up roadside litter is too extreme an effort.

As for complaining about the Democratic Party, their slow incremental changes actually happen, unlike this internet rhetoric. Joe Biden knocking one third of one percent off the interest due on federally-subsidized student loans for the first six quarters after graduation would have more real-world effect than every post you've made here. Good luck with the revolution, comrade.
I don't think there will be a socialist revolution. At this point, a fascist takeover seems more likely. I suppose that's a revolution of sorts.

I don't think mild progressive policies becoming the standard for the currently center-right Democratic party qualifies as revolutionary. Sounds like pretty ordinary electoralism to me. It would be no more a revolution than Tea Party or MAGA takeover of the Republican party. Political parties change, and the current Democratic party is top heavy with geriatrics totally out of touch with how real people live these days.

It's probably not worth going into such heated back and forth, we all know Biden will abandon this idea before long. You can always count of Democrats to negotiate themselves into meaninglessness.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 17th November 2020 at 02:29 PM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2020, 02:26 PM   #191
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 47,854
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
So it's revolution or nothing, eh? I can't imagine how you're going to topple capitalism if you think picking up roadside litter is too extreme an effort.
At least he's got the 'to each according to their need' bit figured out. Just needs some work on the 'from each according to their ability'.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2020, 02:30 PM   #192
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 58,203
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
At least he's got the 'to each according to their need' bit figured out. Just needs some work on the 'from each according to their ability'.
He's not even not asking not what his country can do for him, he's not asking not what he can't do for his country!
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2020, 02:32 PM   #193
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 6,807
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
He's not even not asking not what his country can do for him, he's not asking not what he can't do for his country!
Hey, at least carcanos haven't followed the same explosive price growth that college has. The enterprising commie can still change history on a budget.

https://www.royaltigerimports.com/category-s/1900.htm
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2020, 02:36 PM   #194
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 23,901
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
You don't even know what policies I'm endorsing! I'm in favor of debt forgiveness and reforming the educational system to make borrowing unnecessary! The horrific controversy is that I think there should be a token gesture at community service along with it.
To be fair, I like the concept of what you are talking about. The logic is reasonable, but when it comes right down to it, I would just rather they have a full time job and just pay taxes. Other options include partial, rather than complete, loan forgiveness.

In other words, from a purely practical standpoint, I don't think it's a great idea to tell them they have to do extra work in a specific government provided task as a condition of loan forgiveness. I would rather they do work in the private sector and give a portion of the money they earn to the government.
__________________
Yes, yes. I know you're right, but would it hurt you to actually provide some information?
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2020, 03:31 PM   #195
rockinkt
Graduate Poster
 
rockinkt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,932
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Every single person in this country is getting "something for nothing" all the time. That's living in a society. Unless you live in some an-cap hellscape, we all take advantage of public goods that we did not personally "earn" beyond existing and paying taxes.

I see no reason to single students out for special gratitude-signaling work. They did nothing wrong other than attempting to follow the path that everyone their whole life has been assuring them would lead to gainful employment. How dare these children believe their teachers, their parents, and their government when taking these loans.

It's time that we admit that the current system has failed, that many decent people are trapped in debt that far exceeds any personal failings, and that the whole system needs to be reformed, starting with immediate relief for those trapped in inescapable debt.
It's called declaring bankruptcy.
__________________
"Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." Steve Earle

"I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." Townes Van Zandt
rockinkt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2020, 03:36 PM   #196
crescent
Illuminator
 
crescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,835
Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
It's called declaring bankruptcy.
In which a forum member makes it clear he didn't read through the thread.
crescent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2020, 03:37 PM   #197
rockinkt
Graduate Poster
 
rockinkt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,932
Originally Posted by crescent View Post
In which a forum member makes it clear he didn't read through the thread.
I read the thread - I just didn't get caught up in the drivel.
__________________
"Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." Steve Earle

"I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." Townes Van Zandt
rockinkt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2020, 03:41 PM   #198
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 28,696
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
For the love of Christ, not everything is about everything.
Louder for the people in the back.
__________________
- No, someone having reality and facts on their side does not mean they have been given an unfair advantage and it is not a bias against you. You're just wrong.
- There is no Overton Window for facts.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2020, 03:47 PM   #199
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 23,901
Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
I read the thread - I just didn't get caught up in the drivel.
Or the words.


Actually, though, in case you don't understand the reaction, from your post it is hard to tell what you meant when you said "It's called bankruptcy." It could mean two things.

Option 1) You believe that people unable to pay student loans should just declare bankruptcy, but you are unaware that it is impossible to discharge a student loan via bankruptcy.

Option 2) You think that laws should be changed to allow people to discharge student loans via bankruptcy.


So, tell us what you're advocating, and we'll decide which of us should provide an outraged response to your messages. Without further clarification, we might all do it.
__________________
Yes, yes. I know you're right, but would it hurt you to actually provide some information?
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2020, 04:01 PM   #200
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 47,854
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Or the words.


Actually, though, in case you don't understand the reaction, from your post it is hard to tell what you meant when you said "It's called bankruptcy." It could mean two things.

Option 1) You believe that people unable to pay student loans should just declare bankruptcy, but you are unaware that it is impossible to discharge a student loan via bankruptcy.

Option 2) You think that laws should be changed to allow people to discharge student loans via bankruptcy.


So, tell us what you're advocating, and we'll decide which of us should provide an outraged response to your messages. Without further clarification, we might all do it.
His point is the same either way, though.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:16 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.