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Old 21st November 2006, 10:08 AM   #41
Chris Haynes
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Originally Posted by debv View Post
nraden is Neil Raden, T.S. Wiley's husband, hustling her protocol. ....
So he was spamming for a quack, also known as an "alt-shill"! If anyone questions the "Wiley Protocol" it has a direct impact on his bank account.
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Old 21st November 2006, 10:17 AM   #42
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Thank you, scotth. I must say, Neil certainly has a lot of chutzpah thinking he can hustle this crowd.
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Old 21st November 2006, 10:36 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by debv View Post
Thank you, scotth. I must say, Neil certainly has a lot of chutzpah thinking he can hustle this crowd.
This is definitely a crowd that investigates.
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Old 21st November 2006, 10:38 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by debv View Post
Thank you, scotth. I must say, Neil certainly has a lot of chutzpah thinking he can hustle this crowd.
And not much brains to be using such a clear name of who he is, and not properly identifying himself.

Welcome to the the forum
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Old 21st November 2006, 10:39 AM   #45
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Hmmm.

Bioidenticals.

Sounds like a name for an alternative rock group.

Or a new sci-fi thriller.

ETA: Better yet, a name for a Biohazard tribute band
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Old 21st November 2006, 10:41 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And not much brains to be using such a clear name of who he is, and not properly identifying himself.

Welcome to the the forum
Well, any question of brains can be answered further by reading his/her posts.
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Old 21st November 2006, 10:45 AM   #47
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Will nraden have the courage to return and defend his (apparently) lie infested 3 posts? Or will he be smart enough to realize that he'd only be digging a deeper hole?
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Old 21st November 2006, 10:51 AM   #48
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Old 21st November 2006, 11:07 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Katana View Post
.
I'll make a deal with you. If this is truly a skeptics site, and not just a place where you rearrange your prejudices, then do this. Apply your skepticism to RhythmicLiving.com and Debv's cohorts and if you do, including deconstructing Bent Formby, whose scinece is laughable, and the stories about the sick (but nameless) women there, I will never write another thing about Wiley.

Fair is fair, but these hate mongers operate without scrutiny. They are a moderated site and do not allow dissenting commentary on thier site. If you are truly skeptics, then you will out ******** wherever you find it.
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Old 21st November 2006, 11:45 AM   #50
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I always aproach salesmen not just with skepticism, but outright cynicism.

What Raden does for a living:

http://www.hiredbrains.com/services.html

That's just me, though.

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Old 21st November 2006, 12:02 PM   #51
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nraden.... before I bother looking at the message bringers, lets look at the factualness of your statements.

You've been called out as being factually wrong (deliberately so, I'd say) by existing members of this board. When I personally check the discrepancies, your version always comes up wanting.

You've been associated with T.S. Wiley by debv as the husband of. Who cares if debv is Satan incarnate or what his/her motives might be? I don't see you denying the connection.

We had the rest already, debv just supplied the motive. But, nice try with the ad hom.
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Old 21st November 2006, 12:12 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by nraden View Post
I'll make a deal with you. If this is truly a skeptics site, and not just a place where you rearrange your prejudices, then do this. Apply your skepticism to RhythmicLiving.com and Debv's cohorts and if you do, including deconstructing Bent Formby, whose scinece is laughable, and the stories about the sick (but nameless) women there, I will never write another thing about Wiley.

Fair is fair, but these hate mongers operate without scrutiny. They are a moderated site and do not allow dissenting commentary on thier site. If you are truly skeptics, then you will out ******** wherever you find it.
That would properly be the domain of a separate thread, but if you want to start one feel free.
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Old 21st November 2006, 12:12 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Tactilely, I'd agree. Chemically, no, since the salt cannot be tasted until after it's dissolved in saliva. The molecules affect the receptor in precisely the same way, since they're all identical molecules. The crystal size and shape affects one thing and one thing only, how quickly it dissolves, and therefore the intensity of the taste. The only way to change the taste is to change the molecule.
Even so crystal size can affect taste.

Suppose we have a salt that is a mix of two different kinds of salt, with different sizes of crystals. Suppose the sodium chloride crystals are large, and the potassium chloride crystals are small. Then the potassium chloride crystals will dissolve faster, and their initial impact on taste will be more intense than would happen if you reversed the sizes of the crystals.

Cheers,
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Old 21st November 2006, 12:17 PM   #54
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Although I don't have a degree in anthropolgy (apparently, not required), I have contributed to the understanding of steroid biosynthesis:
"Mechanism of Mevalonate Pyrophosphate Decarboxylase" - Biochemistry, 1994, 33:45 pp. 13355-13362. Despite this, I find the metabolism and pharmacology of steroids quite complex. So, please forgive some naive questions.

Where do the Wiley compounders get their "identical" hormones? For a while the local quacks were promoting "bioidentical" phytoestrogens. Doesn't the prefix "phyto" mean plant-derived? More recently, the quacks have been advertizing "bioequivalent" hormones; do you suppose they recognized the problem? Isn't a mare (mammal) more likely to provide "identical" hormones than shrubbery?

Also, Mr. Raden wrote of Premarin as "a conjugate of 39 SUBSTANCES." What does this mean?

Apparently Raden does not understand his own homework. From the Merck Manual (11th edition), it is a "form of conjugated estrogens." Now, I don't know exactly to what those estrogens are conjugated; but it has a meaning which a scientist can comprehend.
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Old 21st November 2006, 12:23 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by nraden View Post
I'll make a deal with you. If this is truly a skeptics site, and not just a place where you rearrange your prejudices, then do this. Apply your skepticism to RhythmicLiving.com and Debv's cohorts and if you do, including deconstructing Bent Formby, whose scinece is laughable, and the stories about the sick (but nameless) women there, I will never write another thing about Wiley.

Fair is fair, but these hate mongers operate without scrutiny. They are a moderated site and do not allow dissenting commentary on thier site. If you are truly skeptics, then you will out ******** wherever you find it.
Let me make sure I undersand. You came onto our site, one based on a respect for critical thinking, you made claims, those claims have been questioned, and now you respond by offering a deal with (I guess) me that requires me to go to a site whose rules preclude my ability to call their claims into question just so you will never write another thing about Wiley?

Why don't you tell us what reasons you have for writing another thing about Wiley independent of that site?

When Debv makes a claim, we will expect no less of her than we did of you. Having said that, the one that she has made so far should rightfully be answered by you and that is that you're T.S. Wiley's husband. It's one which you, quite conspicuously, have not denied.

Last edited by Katana; 21st November 2006 at 01:37 PM. Reason: word fragment that I didn't completely delete
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Old 21st November 2006, 01:31 PM   #56
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Please, scrutinize. I'm confident what you find will only substantiate what I and my "cohorts" have said about the Wiley protocol and its stakeholders. If it turns up any errors and inaccuracies, I'll gladly correct them. I don't recall that it's happened yet, but I'm fallible and at times have to rely on judgments of character. Allegations I've made but have not (yet) substantiated, I don't expect anyone to take on faith.

It's nice that for once I'm not the one pointing out the diversionary tactics. Neil's comments and arguments predominantly consist of ad hominem, recriminations, and general water-muddying, and I don't allow that sort of junk through.

(My site, BTW, is Wiley Watch. I hope it's okay to mention that, though forum policy prevents me from linking.)

EDIT: http://wileywatch.org. The only cash flow from it is the one going out of my pockets. Thanks, Huntsman.

Last edited by Terry; 1st December 2006 at 08:55 PM. Reason: make link live
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Old 21st November 2006, 01:38 PM   #57
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debv:

We generally don't have problems with linking, as long as it isn't commercial in nature (i.e.-"Cum C my l33t new sit and by my stuff!!1!1!"). The no linking rule is primarily to stop spam-bots that create a forum account and post hundreds of links in every thread.

If you type in your web site without the "http:" and "www" part, it should accept it (not as a link, but we can cut 'n' paste)
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Old 21st November 2006, 01:40 PM   #58
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And finishing Huntsman's thought..... you'll be able to post links after some small number of posts (10 or 20 I think).
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Old 21st November 2006, 01:41 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by scotth View Post
And finishing Huntsman's thought..... you'll be able to post links after some small number of posts (10 or 20 I think).
Er, yeah, what he said

I think it's 15.
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Old 21st November 2006, 09:10 PM   #60
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debv, so good to have you here-awesome website you have, and Katana, you're the coolest too.

Here I was kind of hoping for a new woo to toy with, but don't really have time anyway, unless ol' raden wants to go for a few more rounds That big hypocrite is essentially just parroting the same old same old though. Can't any of these people ever come up with something original?
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Old 21st November 2006, 09:31 PM   #61
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It's not hormones making you old, it's you body stopping regenerating itself around 50.
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Old 21st November 2006, 09:47 PM   #62
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Thumbs down

Originally Posted by nraden View Post
I'll make a deal with you. If this is truly a skeptics site, and not just a place where you rearrange your prejudices, then do this. Apply your skepticism to RhythmicLiving.com and Debv's cohorts and if you do, including deconstructing Bent Formby, whose scinece is laughable, and the stories about the sick (but nameless) women there, I will never write another thing about Wiley.....
Perhaps... but this is so much more amusing:
http://wileywatch.org/ts_wileys_credentials
Quote:
What about T.S. Wiley's stint as a guest investigator? This was a favor from Dr. Formby in 1997. “We appointed her as guest investigator at Sansum Medical Research Institute for 3 months. By doing so she became affiliated with an academic institution.... We were all very nice to her and glad to be able to support an ordinary housewife with an interest in bioscience.”

Apparently it didn't work out so well. “I was very surprised to discover how illiterate TS was in science and math. She knew absolutely nothing. She did not even know the difference between hydrogen and oxygen or the square root of a number.... She told me she never had science and math in high school.” And, “That was a great mistake because she has absolutely no knowledge about science and how a scientific laboratory with all the applied molecular techniques works.”
By the way, Bert Formby is not a guru either. He is not a doctor, but he does have a real PhD... and looking at www.pubmed.gov he is the first author on a few papers (some with TS Wiley as the second author).

I'm not sure about the whole bunch of these "researchers." A search on www.pubmed.gov on "hormones menopause" finds that there is lots of research, much of it contradictory to other studies. There is this one that does not recommend "bioidentical" hormone replacement ... and it is from the "Southwest College of Naturapathic Medicine" (a type of research facility we kind of at look skeptically). Then I found this editorial (Pubmed also indexes non-peer reviewed stuff like letters and editorials):
http://www.menopause.org.au/public/m...tail.asp?ID=72
It ends with this comment:
Quote:
In Australia and the USA, there has been a recent proliferation of compounding chemists who have taken advantage of postmenopausal women’s need for and anxiety about conventional HRT and the loopholes in current legislation in these countries. These compounding pharmacies are now manufacturing ‘bioidentical’ hormonal mixtures and delivery systems in such proportions that they have effectively become a large, inadequately regulated pharmaceutical industry. It is time for the international drug regulatory authorities to regulate this industry, which is based on false promise, pseudo science and pecuniary interest without responsibility for the interests and health of the consumer.

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Old 21st November 2006, 09:57 PM   #63
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Thank you HCN. These quacks go on about the the greed of "big pharma", but profit from the kindness extended to them by folks they are now slapping in the face. Crude crude, crud crud crud. Wiley and her hubby are despicable. Somers is rotten by association and for profiting with these wolves in sheep coverings.
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Old 21st November 2006, 10:00 PM   #64
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Beware the dihydrogen monoxide

Originally Posted by Skeptic Guy View Post
Exactly. And even drinking too much water will kill you too.
Yeah, that nasty di-hydrogen monoxide kills thousands every year, either through accidental inhalation or some other isideous means.

I remember when a serious news site linked to a joke di-hydrogen monoxide site. They didn't realize the joke! I'm sure you can find the site still by internet searching for di-hydrogen monoxide. (something like: www dmho org - fill in the dots)

It has such an evil sounding chemical name and all, too - that monoxide stuff...

On the other hand, all those purveyors of "natural" medicine are doing a world of disservice. My wife often buys into the its natural so it must be ok from time to time (and it doesn't work to point out arsenic is natural).

jbs

Last edited by switchtech; 21st November 2006 at 10:29 PM.
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Old 21st November 2006, 10:27 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by debv View Post
(My site, BTW, is Wiley Watch. I hope it's okay to mention that, though forum policy prevents me from linking.)
You should be able to edit your profile to put your web site there. If you click on a member name you get a little drop down with a bunch of options. On my name one option is to visit my home page (not that I specifically recommend anyone follow it - it has nothing to do with critical thinking - on the other hand if you're interested in who I am - go for it).

And cudos on your web site. It looks well done and seems quite informative. Thanks.

jbs
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Old 21st November 2006, 11:12 PM   #66
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Here's the link to our newbie's web: http://www.wileywatch.org/

I did a search on Wiley, and this great site didn't come up for me. Are there tags or something that can be attached to the website?
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Old 21st November 2006, 11:46 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Hydrogen Cyanide View Post
By the way, Bert Formby is not a guru either. He is not a doctor, but he does have a real PhD...
(laughing) No, I don't believe it's within Bent's character to aspire to or ever accept the title "guru". As for PhDs, he has two of them.

I consider him a very kind and honest man, but he inadvertently helped T.S. Wiley acquire a status she should never have had, and perhaps a lot of suffering might have been averted had he not. I get a real sense that he regrets it, and I think his assistance and forthcomingness are a testament to his character.

Originally Posted by Eos of the Eons
Somers is rotten by association and for profiting with these wolves in sheep coverings.
Yes, I think Suzanne Somers has really stepped into a big one here.

I've been watching the Wiley camp for over a year and a half, taking careful records of just about everything. Wiley Watch actually first launched well over a year ago, but we knew that Suzanne Somers would be endorsing Wiley in her next book, and we decided at some point that it would be better to wait. It seemed there was no point in going after Wiley at a time when nobody knew who she was nor cared. Basically, we realized that the fame and attention Wiley desired would instead end up being her gravest threat. So we lay low and stockpiled information.

As a nice side-effect, I think this gave them a false sense of security. Wiley Watch hadn't spent much ammunition yet and went without updates for many months at a time. About two months ago, before Somers' book came out, Neil Raden wrote to his circle of Wiley enthusiasts, "What they [Wiley critics] don't understand is that WP is a lot bigger than they are the train has already left the station. They have no idea what's already happened and is going to emerge in the next few months, it can't be stopped. Just ignore them, that's the best approach (and it always gives them ulcers)."

I think it's more accurate to say that we knew what was coming and they didn't. And I don't think Suzanne Somers did either.

(And I can assure you, many women who have spoken up wish Neil Raden would ignore them. But of course he's talking to his flock here...)

Anyway, when the book came out, Wiley Watch relaunched in the form you see today and the game is now on.

If I could place a bet, I would wager that Suzanne Somers is going to really, REALLY regret this...

Last edited by debv; 22nd November 2006 at 12:26 AM. Reason: can't grammar
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Old 22nd November 2006, 12:00 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Eos of the Eons View Post
Here's the link to our newbie's web:

I did a search on Wiley, and this great site didn't come up for me. Are there tags or something that can be attached to the website?
I may be a newbie but I've loved Mr. Randi since I was a teenager.

What was your search term? When I search "wiley protocol", we're #2 on Google and #1 on Yahoo -- ahead of Wiley herself. We're not so high on "t.s. wiley" and I'm working on "neil raden", just because I believe in justice.

It's my understanding that search engines don't give much or any weight to meta tags these days.

Last edited by debv; 22nd November 2006 at 12:24 AM. Reason: dyslexia
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Old 22nd November 2006, 07:58 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Eos of the Eons View Post
debv, so good to have you here-awesome website you have, and Katana, you're the coolest too.
Right back atcha, Eos.

I'm always impressed with your posts (especially #60 in this thread ).
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Old 22nd November 2006, 09:30 AM   #70
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When I posted this thread I expected maybe a few comments and then it would fade away.

But once again the members of this forum (too many to name) have proved to me their willingness to call to account anyone making an absurd claim. Whether the claim is scientific, medical, paranormal, whatever, there is always someone ready to say "prove it".

There usually are well thought out comments and research during the debate.

And what really impresses me about this group is the maturity of the discussion; it rarely falls to the level of personal attacks and name-calling.

I had to make this comment praising you before my coffee kicked in and I talked myself out of it. The members of this forum are the best.

Carry on.
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Old 22nd November 2006, 09:39 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by grayman View Post
When I posted this thread I expected maybe a few comments and then it would fade away.

But once again the members of this forum (too many to name) have proved to me their willingness to call to account anyone making an absurd claim. Whether the claim is scientific, medical, paranormal, whatever, there is always someone ready to say "prove it".

There usually are well thought out comments and research during the debate.

And what really impresses me about this group is the maturity of the discussion; it rarely falls to the level of personal attacks and name-calling.

I had to make this comment praising you before my coffee kicked in and I talked myself out of it. The members of this forum are the best.

Carry on.
Except for me.

I'm just a cynical a**hole.

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Old 22nd November 2006, 11:48 AM   #72
debv
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Yes, this has been very refreshing for me. Thank you!

And thank you for the nice comments about the site.
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Old 22nd November 2006, 04:04 PM   #73
luchog
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Originally Posted by Ben Tilly View Post
Even so crystal size can affect taste.

Suppose we have a salt that is a mix of two different kinds of salt, with different sizes of crystals. Suppose the sodium chloride crystals are large, and the potassium chloride crystals are small. Then the potassium chloride crystals will dissolve faster, and their initial impact on taste will be more intense than would happen if you reversed the sizes of the crystals.
Erm... no. That's a truism not even related to what was being discussed. Serenity's assertion was the crystal size of sodium chloride affects how it tastes; which is demonstrably untrue. That different salts taste different, regardless of crystal size and dissolve rates, is a given.
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Old 22nd November 2006, 04:36 PM   #74
JJM
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Originally Posted by Ben Tilly View Post
Even so crystal size can affect taste.

Suppose we have a salt that is a mix of two different kinds of salt, with different sizes of crystals. Suppose the sodium chloride crystals are large, and the potassium chloride crystals are small. Then the potassium chloride crystals will dissolve faster, and their initial impact on taste will be more intense than would happen if you reversed the sizes of the crystals.

Cheers,
Ben
Given good mixing, smaller crystals of a particular compound dissolve faster. However, the rate of dissolution for crystals of different compounds, of the same size, depends on their chemical composition. Some compounds inherently dissolve faster than others.
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Old 23rd November 2006, 10:08 PM   #75
Eos of the Eons
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If I may pry a bit more, may I ask Debv what her stance is on biodenticals vs fda approved treatments? I find her site a bit fuzzy on that, and would like to see more on exposing the fallacies of "bioidenticals" in general, and was wondering about thoughts on that? A little science taking down bioidenticals would be the icing on the cake of a site, so to speak.
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Old 24th November 2006, 04:23 AM   #76
JJM
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Originally Posted by Eos of the Eons View Post
If I may pry a bit more, may I ask Debv what her stance is on biodenticals vs fda approved treatments? I find her site a bit fuzzy on that, and would like to see more on exposing the fallacies of "bioidenticals" in general, and was wondering about thoughts on that? A little science taking down bioidenticals would be the icing on the cake of a site, so to speak.
I posted a facetiously-worded set of questions about bioidenticals. I am a chemist and I really can't sort out the claims; but it seems to me the proponents can't do so, either. The Larry King transcript that Debv's site linked (thank you) shows bioident proponents arguing with the bioident program promoted by TS Wiley, et al.

I finally found this by working my way through the Mayo Clinic web site (wwwdotmayoclinicdotcom). Go to the CAM area, and then go to the herbs and supplements.
Quote:
[T]here is no evidence that bioidentical hormones are safer or more effective than standard hormone replacement therapy.
snip
... bioidentical hormones are available in FDA-approved [forms.]
snip
These products come in many different doses and forms. So, you don't need to turn to unregulated, individually compounded products as your only source of "natural" products.
That seems to sum it up neatly.

Note about the MAyo Clinic site- some of the articles, like this one, provide critical analysis. Others are by woo-proponents trying to sound critical. For example, the "homeopathy" article says it is controversial.

There is no scientific controversy concerning homeopathy. Proponents would have you think there is one, so they create a social controversy and hope the public can't tell the difference. (Creationists did the same when promoting Intelligent Design as "science.") Thus, the article on homeopathy is unreliable.

Considering the mix of critical and uncritical arguments, it seems the Mayo Clinic has no quality-control over the site.

Last edited by JJM; 24th November 2006 at 04:27 AM.
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Old 24th November 2006, 08:30 AM   #77
Eos of the Eons
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Thank you JJM, and I asked some point blank questions myself that haven't been addressed by folks selling "plant" bioidenticals. I'm definitely seeing the woo claims as false, misleading, and set up to misinform the masses to make them fear anything they aren't selling.
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Old 24th November 2006, 10:41 AM   #78
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I don't know enough about that debate to take a stand on it. I barely have enough time to put into the Wiley issue.

It's certainly nonsense, as has been pointed out here, to claim that bioidenticals are safe because they're "natural". (And it seems Wiley wants to have her cake and eat it too, advocating that peri- to post-menopausal women artificially elevate their hormone levels to those of a 20-year-old -- at times a pregnant one.) Whatever their source, (exogenous) hormones and hormone-like substances are powerful drugs.

I'm more focused on the collosal irresponsibility of advocating massive doses of these drugs, based on little more than a conjecture, a "thought experiment", -- that doing so will prevent and cure age-related diseases and may lead to immortality. (According to Raden, Wiley says, "My clinical study is millions of young women." It's revolutionary science.)

And of course I'm focused on the disingenuous behavior I have observed from the stakeholders in this scheme. I might have lost interest in the Wiley Protocol long ago had I not observed that Raden and one of the Wiley pharmacists were using fake names on a message board to attack women -- the women who were coming forward and reporting that the protocol was making them sick. (It was easy to spot. Every post had the IP address it originated from. I don't think they knew what those four numbers meant. I was able to get a copy of the logs for the board which showed that these posts were not only coming from the same IP addresses, but almost certainly the same web browsers.)

That pharmacist, incidentally, was also posting fake glowing testimonials about her own pharmacy, which it seems to me is clearly illegal under the California Business and Professions Code. This was reported to the California Board of Pharmacy, who inexplicably took no action.

On another note, I see that nraden has not returned to this board since throwing out his challenge.
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Old 24th November 2006, 10:59 AM   #79
Eos of the Eons
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Thank you debv.

Quote:
(According to Raden, Wiley says, "My clinical study is millions of young women." It's revolutionary science.)
It's not close to revolutionary, nor science. Bad study designs and false claims are not science in the least. Young women? The product is pushed at menopausal women.

nraden caught my eye on another board when I searched for "wiley" on google. It must be nice to have time to troll boards with biased and overblown claims for Wiley. So professional. I sure want they are selling!
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Old 24th November 2006, 11:38 AM   #80
fls
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Originally Posted by JJM View Post
Note about the MAyo Clinic site- some of the articles, like this one, provide critical analysis. Others are by woo-proponents trying to sound critical. For example, the "homeopathy" article says it is controversial.

There is no scientific controversy concerning homeopathy. Proponents would have you think there is one, so they create a social controversy and hope the public can't tell the difference. (Creationists did the same when promoting Intelligent Design as "science.") Thus, the article on homeopathy is unreliable.

Considering the mix of critical and uncritical arguments, it seems the Mayo Clinic has no quality-control over the site.
I will admit to a bias on this issue, but I think you are being unreasonable. <g>

I agree that the article on homeopathy is couched in somewhat concilliatory terms (as are some of the other articles on sCAM), but I think that reflects the fact that the Mayo Clinic recognizes that many people are inclined to use sCAM and doesn't want to alienate them. Knowing the author of that article, rather than a woo-proponent trying to sound critical, he is more like a proponent of conventional medicine trying to not sound critical.

This article in that same section at least focuses on the issue of scams and wishful thinking.
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/alt...dicine/SA00078

And their information on supplements is very good, including a grade for the kind of evidence for each indication.

Linda
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