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21st November 2006, 10:08 AM | #41 |
Perfectly Poisonous Person
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I used to be intelligent... but then I had kids "HCN, I hate you!" ( so sayeth Deetee at http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1077344 )... What I get for linking to http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/ |
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21st November 2006, 10:17 AM | #42 |
Student
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Thank you, scotth. I must say, Neil certainly has a lot of chutzpah thinking he can hustle this crowd.
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21st November 2006, 10:36 AM | #43 |
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21st November 2006, 10:38 AM | #44 |
Orthogonal Vector
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21st November 2006, 10:39 AM | #45 |
Merchant of Doom
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Hmmm.
Bioidenticals. Sounds like a name for an alternative rock group. Or a new sci-fi thriller. ETA: Better yet, a name for a Biohazard tribute band |
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History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it just yells "Can't you remember anything I told you?" and lets fly with a club. - John w. Campbell |
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21st November 2006, 10:41 AM | #46 |
Illuminator
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21st November 2006, 10:45 AM | #47 |
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Will nraden have the courage to return and defend his (apparently) lie infested 3 posts? Or will he be smart enough to realize that he'd only be digging a deeper hole?
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21st November 2006, 10:51 AM | #48 |
Illuminator
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21st November 2006, 11:07 AM | #49 |
Student
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I'll make a deal with you. If this is truly a skeptics site, and not just a place where you rearrange your prejudices, then do this. Apply your skepticism to RhythmicLiving.com and Debv's cohorts and if you do, including deconstructing Bent Formby, whose scinece is laughable, and the stories about the sick (but nameless) women there, I will never write another thing about Wiley.
Fair is fair, but these hate mongers operate without scrutiny. They are a moderated site and do not allow dissenting commentary on thier site. If you are truly skeptics, then you will out ******** wherever you find it. |
21st November 2006, 11:45 AM | #50 |
Thinker
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I always aproach salesmen not just with skepticism, but outright cynicism.
What Raden does for a living: http://www.hiredbrains.com/services.html That's just me, though. Fordama |
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There's a million fine looking women in the world, dude. But, they don't all bring you lasagna at work. |
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21st November 2006, 12:02 PM | #51 |
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nraden.... before I bother looking at the message bringers, lets look at the factualness of your statements.
You've been called out as being factually wrong (deliberately so, I'd say) by existing members of this board. When I personally check the discrepancies, your version always comes up wanting. You've been associated with T.S. Wiley by debv as the husband of. Who cares if debv is Satan incarnate or what his/her motives might be? I don't see you denying the connection. We had the rest already, debv just supplied the motive. But, nice try with the ad hom. |
21st November 2006, 12:12 PM | #52 |
Orthogonal Vector
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21st November 2006, 12:12 PM | #53 |
Muse
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Even so crystal size can affect taste.
Suppose we have a salt that is a mix of two different kinds of salt, with different sizes of crystals. Suppose the sodium chloride crystals are large, and the potassium chloride crystals are small. Then the potassium chloride crystals will dissolve faster, and their initial impact on taste will be more intense than would happen if you reversed the sizes of the crystals. Cheers, Ben |
21st November 2006, 12:17 PM | #54 |
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Although I don't have a degree in anthropolgy (apparently, not required), I have contributed to the understanding of steroid biosynthesis:
"Mechanism of Mevalonate Pyrophosphate Decarboxylase" - Biochemistry, 1994, 33:45 pp. 13355-13362. Despite this, I find the metabolism and pharmacology of steroids quite complex. So, please forgive some naive questions. Where do the Wiley compounders get their "identical" hormones? For a while the local quacks were promoting "bioidentical" phytoestrogens. Doesn't the prefix "phyto" mean plant-derived? More recently, the quacks have been advertizing "bioequivalent" hormones; do you suppose they recognized the problem? Isn't a mare (mammal) more likely to provide "identical" hormones than shrubbery? Also, Mr. Raden wrote of Premarin as "a conjugate of 39 SUBSTANCES." What does this mean? Apparently Raden does not understand his own homework. From the Merck Manual (11th edition), it is a "form of conjugated estrogens." Now, I don't know exactly to what those estrogens are conjugated; but it has a meaning which a scientist can comprehend. |
21st November 2006, 12:23 PM | #55 |
Illuminator
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Let me make sure I undersand. You came onto our site, one based on a respect for critical thinking, you made claims, those claims have been questioned, and now you respond by offering a deal with (I guess) me that requires me to go to a site whose rules preclude my ability to call their claims into question just so you will never write another thing about Wiley?
Why don't you tell us what reasons you have for writing another thing about Wiley independent of that site? When Debv makes a claim, we will expect no less of her than we did of you. Having said that, the one that she has made so far should rightfully be answered by you and that is that you're T.S. Wiley's husband. It's one which you, quite conspicuously, have not denied. |
Last edited by Katana; 21st November 2006 at 01:37 PM. Reason: word fragment that I didn't completely delete |
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21st November 2006, 01:31 PM | #56 |
Student
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Please, scrutinize. I'm confident what you find will only substantiate what I and my "cohorts" have said about the Wiley protocol and its stakeholders. If it turns up any errors and inaccuracies, I'll gladly correct them. I don't recall that it's happened yet, but I'm fallible and at times have to rely on judgments of character. Allegations I've made but have not (yet) substantiated, I don't expect anyone to take on faith.
It's nice that for once I'm not the one pointing out the diversionary tactics. Neil's comments and arguments predominantly consist of ad hominem, recriminations, and general water-muddying, and I don't allow that sort of junk through. (My site, BTW, is Wiley Watch. I hope it's okay to mention that, though forum policy prevents me from linking.) EDIT: http://wileywatch.org. The only cash flow from it is the one going out of my pockets. Thanks, Huntsman. |
21st November 2006, 01:38 PM | #57 |
Merchant of Doom
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debv:
We generally don't have problems with linking, as long as it isn't commercial in nature (i.e.-"Cum C my l33t new sit and by my stuff!!1!1!"). The no linking rule is primarily to stop spam-bots that create a forum account and post hundreds of links in every thread. If you type in your web site without the "http:" and "www" part, it should accept it (not as a link, but we can cut 'n' paste) |
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History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it just yells "Can't you remember anything I told you?" and lets fly with a club. - John w. Campbell |
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21st November 2006, 01:40 PM | #58 |
Graduate Poster
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And finishing Huntsman's thought..... you'll be able to post links after some small number of posts (10 or 20 I think).
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21st November 2006, 01:41 PM | #59 |
Merchant of Doom
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History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it just yells "Can't you remember anything I told you?" and lets fly with a club. - John w. Campbell |
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21st November 2006, 09:10 PM | #60 |
Mad Scientist
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debv, so good to have you here-awesome website you have, and Katana, you're the coolest too.
Here I was kind of hoping for a new woo to toy with, but don't really have time anyway, unless ol' raden wants to go for a few more rounds That big hypocrite is essentially just parroting the same old same old though. Can't any of these people ever come up with something original? |
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Motion affecting a measuring device does not affect what is actually being measured, except to inaccurately measure it. the immaterial world doesn't matter, cause it ain't matter-Jeff Corey my karma ran over my dogma-vbloke The Lateral Truth: An Apostate's Bible Stories by Rebecca Bradley, read it! |
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21st November 2006, 09:31 PM | #61 |
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
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It's not hormones making you old, it's you body stopping regenerating itself around 50.
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We do these things not because they are easy, but because we thought they were going to be easy. Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. “Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos |
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21st November 2006, 09:47 PM | #62 |
Perfectly Poisonous Person
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Perhaps... but this is so much more amusing:
http://wileywatch.org/ts_wileys_credentials
Quote:
I'm not sure about the whole bunch of these "researchers." A search on www.pubmed.gov on "hormones menopause" finds that there is lots of research, much of it contradictory to other studies. There is this one that does not recommend "bioidentical" hormone replacement ... and it is from the "Southwest College of Naturapathic Medicine" (a type of research facility we kind of at look skeptically). Then I found this editorial (Pubmed also indexes non-peer reviewed stuff like letters and editorials): http://www.menopause.org.au/public/m...tail.asp?ID=72 It ends with this comment:
Quote:
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I used to be intelligent... but then I had kids "HCN, I hate you!" ( so sayeth Deetee at http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1077344 )... What I get for linking to http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/ |
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21st November 2006, 09:57 PM | #63 |
Mad Scientist
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Thank you HCN. These quacks go on about the the greed of "big pharma", but profit from the kindness extended to them by folks they are now slapping in the face. Crude crude, crud crud crud. Wiley and her hubby are despicable. Somers is rotten by association and for profiting with these wolves in sheep coverings.
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Motion affecting a measuring device does not affect what is actually being measured, except to inaccurately measure it. the immaterial world doesn't matter, cause it ain't matter-Jeff Corey my karma ran over my dogma-vbloke The Lateral Truth: An Apostate's Bible Stories by Rebecca Bradley, read it! |
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21st November 2006, 10:00 PM | #64 |
Thinker
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Beware the dihydrogen monoxide
Yeah, that nasty di-hydrogen monoxide kills thousands every year, either through accidental inhalation or some other isideous means.
I remember when a serious news site linked to a joke di-hydrogen monoxide site. They didn't realize the joke! I'm sure you can find the site still by internet searching for di-hydrogen monoxide. (something like: www dmho org - fill in the dots) It has such an evil sounding chemical name and all, too - that monoxide stuff... On the other hand, all those purveyors of "natural" medicine are doing a world of disservice. My wife often buys into the its natural so it must be ok from time to time (and it doesn't work to point out arsenic is natural). jbs |
21st November 2006, 10:27 PM | #65 |
Thinker
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You should be able to edit your profile to put your web site there. If you click on a member name you get a little drop down with a bunch of options. On my name one option is to visit my home page (not that I specifically recommend anyone follow it - it has nothing to do with critical thinking - on the other hand if you're interested in who I am - go for it).
And cudos on your web site. It looks well done and seems quite informative. Thanks. jbs |
21st November 2006, 11:12 PM | #66 |
Mad Scientist
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Here's the link to our newbie's web: http://www.wileywatch.org/
I did a search on Wiley, and this great site didn't come up for me. Are there tags or something that can be attached to the website? |
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Motion affecting a measuring device does not affect what is actually being measured, except to inaccurately measure it. the immaterial world doesn't matter, cause it ain't matter-Jeff Corey my karma ran over my dogma-vbloke The Lateral Truth: An Apostate's Bible Stories by Rebecca Bradley, read it! |
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21st November 2006, 11:46 PM | #67 |
Student
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(laughing) No, I don't believe it's within Bent's character to aspire to or ever accept the title "guru". As for PhDs, he has two of them.
I consider him a very kind and honest man, but he inadvertently helped T.S. Wiley acquire a status she should never have had, and perhaps a lot of suffering might have been averted had he not. I get a real sense that he regrets it, and I think his assistance and forthcomingness are a testament to his character.
Originally Posted by Eos of the Eons
I've been watching the Wiley camp for over a year and a half, taking careful records of just about everything. Wiley Watch actually first launched well over a year ago, but we knew that Suzanne Somers would be endorsing Wiley in her next book, and we decided at some point that it would be better to wait. It seemed there was no point in going after Wiley at a time when nobody knew who she was nor cared. Basically, we realized that the fame and attention Wiley desired would instead end up being her gravest threat. So we lay low and stockpiled information. As a nice side-effect, I think this gave them a false sense of security. Wiley Watch hadn't spent much ammunition yet and went without updates for many months at a time. About two months ago, before Somers' book came out, Neil Raden wrote to his circle of Wiley enthusiasts, "What they [Wiley critics] don't understand is that WP is a lot bigger than they are the train has already left the station. They have no idea what's already happened and is going to emerge in the next few months, it can't be stopped. Just ignore them, that's the best approach (and it always gives them ulcers)." I think it's more accurate to say that we knew what was coming and they didn't. And I don't think Suzanne Somers did either. (And I can assure you, many women who have spoken up wish Neil Raden would ignore them. But of course he's talking to his flock here...) Anyway, when the book came out, Wiley Watch relaunched in the form you see today and the game is now on. If I could place a bet, I would wager that Suzanne Somers is going to really, REALLY regret this... |
22nd November 2006, 12:00 AM | #68 |
Student
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I may be a newbie but I've loved Mr. Randi since I was a teenager.
What was your search term? When I search "wiley protocol", we're #2 on Google and #1 on Yahoo -- ahead of Wiley herself. We're not so high on "t.s. wiley" and I'm working on "neil raden", just because I believe in justice. It's my understanding that search engines don't give much or any weight to meta tags these days. |
22nd November 2006, 07:58 AM | #69 |
Illuminator
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22nd November 2006, 09:30 AM | #70 |
Happy-go-lucky Heretic
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When I posted this thread I expected maybe a few comments and then it would fade away.
But once again the members of this forum (too many to name) have proved to me their willingness to call to account anyone making an absurd claim. Whether the claim is scientific, medical, paranormal, whatever, there is always someone ready to say "prove it". There usually are well thought out comments and research during the debate. And what really impresses me about this group is the maturity of the discussion; it rarely falls to the level of personal attacks and name-calling. I had to make this comment praising you before my coffee kicked in and I talked myself out of it. The members of this forum are the best. Carry on. |
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Stupidity is a condition. Ignorance is a choice. - Wiley All great truths begin as blasphemies. - George Bernard Shaw God is evil. As soon as you accept that, it all makes sense. - Sledge |
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22nd November 2006, 09:39 AM | #71 |
Merchant of Doom
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History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it just yells "Can't you remember anything I told you?" and lets fly with a club. - John w. Campbell |
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22nd November 2006, 11:48 AM | #72 |
Student
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Yes, this has been very refreshing for me. Thank you!
And thank you for the nice comments about the site. |
22nd November 2006, 04:04 PM | #73 |
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
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Erm... no. That's a truism not even related to what was being discussed. Serenity's assertion was the crystal size of sodium chloride affects how it tastes; which is demonstrably untrue. That different salts taste different, regardless of crystal size and dissolve rates, is a given.
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When you say that fascists should only be defeated through debate, what you're really saying is that the marginalized and vulnerable should have to endlessly argue for their right to exist; and at no point should they ever be fully accepted, and the debate considered won. |
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22nd November 2006, 04:36 PM | #74 |
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23rd November 2006, 10:08 PM | #75 |
Mad Scientist
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If I may pry a bit more, may I ask Debv what her stance is on biodenticals vs fda approved treatments? I find her site a bit fuzzy on that, and would like to see more on exposing the fallacies of "bioidenticals" in general, and was wondering about thoughts on that? A little science taking down bioidenticals would be the icing on the cake of a site, so to speak.
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Motion affecting a measuring device does not affect what is actually being measured, except to inaccurately measure it. the immaterial world doesn't matter, cause it ain't matter-Jeff Corey my karma ran over my dogma-vbloke The Lateral Truth: An Apostate's Bible Stories by Rebecca Bradley, read it! |
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24th November 2006, 04:23 AM | #76 |
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I posted a facetiously-worded set of questions about bioidenticals. I am a chemist and I really can't sort out the claims; but it seems to me the proponents can't do so, either. The Larry King transcript that Debv's site linked (thank you) shows bioident proponents arguing with the bioident program promoted by TS Wiley, et al.
I finally found this by working my way through the Mayo Clinic web site (wwwdotmayoclinicdotcom). Go to the CAM area, and then go to the herbs and supplements.
Quote:
Note about the MAyo Clinic site- some of the articles, like this one, provide critical analysis. Others are by woo-proponents trying to sound critical. For example, the "homeopathy" article says it is controversial. There is no scientific controversy concerning homeopathy. Proponents would have you think there is one, so they create a social controversy and hope the public can't tell the difference. (Creationists did the same when promoting Intelligent Design as "science.") Thus, the article on homeopathy is unreliable. Considering the mix of critical and uncritical arguments, it seems the Mayo Clinic has no quality-control over the site. |
24th November 2006, 08:30 AM | #77 |
Mad Scientist
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Thank you JJM, and I asked some point blank questions myself that haven't been addressed by folks selling "plant" bioidenticals. I'm definitely seeing the woo claims as false, misleading, and set up to misinform the masses to make them fear anything they aren't selling.
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Motion affecting a measuring device does not affect what is actually being measured, except to inaccurately measure it. the immaterial world doesn't matter, cause it ain't matter-Jeff Corey my karma ran over my dogma-vbloke The Lateral Truth: An Apostate's Bible Stories by Rebecca Bradley, read it! |
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24th November 2006, 10:41 AM | #78 |
Student
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I don't know enough about that debate to take a stand on it. I barely have enough time to put into the Wiley issue.
It's certainly nonsense, as has been pointed out here, to claim that bioidenticals are safe because they're "natural". (And it seems Wiley wants to have her cake and eat it too, advocating that peri- to post-menopausal women artificially elevate their hormone levels to those of a 20-year-old -- at times a pregnant one.) Whatever their source, (exogenous) hormones and hormone-like substances are powerful drugs. I'm more focused on the collosal irresponsibility of advocating massive doses of these drugs, based on little more than a conjecture, a "thought experiment", -- that doing so will prevent and cure age-related diseases and may lead to immortality. (According to Raden, Wiley says, "My clinical study is millions of young women." It's revolutionary science.) And of course I'm focused on the disingenuous behavior I have observed from the stakeholders in this scheme. I might have lost interest in the Wiley Protocol long ago had I not observed that Raden and one of the Wiley pharmacists were using fake names on a message board to attack women -- the women who were coming forward and reporting that the protocol was making them sick. (It was easy to spot. Every post had the IP address it originated from. I don't think they knew what those four numbers meant. I was able to get a copy of the logs for the board which showed that these posts were not only coming from the same IP addresses, but almost certainly the same web browsers.) That pharmacist, incidentally, was also posting fake glowing testimonials about her own pharmacy, which it seems to me is clearly illegal under the California Business and Professions Code. This was reported to the California Board of Pharmacy, who inexplicably took no action. On another note, I see that nraden has not returned to this board since throwing out his challenge. |
24th November 2006, 10:59 AM | #79 |
Mad Scientist
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Thank you debv.
Quote:
nraden caught my eye on another board when I searched for "wiley" on google. It must be nice to have time to troll boards with biased and overblown claims for Wiley. So professional. I sure want they are selling! |
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Motion affecting a measuring device does not affect what is actually being measured, except to inaccurately measure it. the immaterial world doesn't matter, cause it ain't matter-Jeff Corey my karma ran over my dogma-vbloke The Lateral Truth: An Apostate's Bible Stories by Rebecca Bradley, read it! |
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24th November 2006, 11:38 AM | #80 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I will admit to a bias on this issue, but I think you are being unreasonable. <g>
I agree that the article on homeopathy is couched in somewhat concilliatory terms (as are some of the other articles on sCAM), but I think that reflects the fact that the Mayo Clinic recognizes that many people are inclined to use sCAM and doesn't want to alienate them. Knowing the author of that article, rather than a woo-proponent trying to sound critical, he is more like a proponent of conventional medicine trying to not sound critical. This article in that same section at least focuses on the issue of scams and wishful thinking. http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/alt...dicine/SA00078 And their information on supplements is very good, including a grade for the kind of evidence for each indication. Linda |
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