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17th August 2007, 10:11 PM | #1 |
Critical Thinker
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I ruined my friend's woo
LOL! A friend of mine whom I hadn't seen in quite a while told me she'd been having some problems with her wrist, and had undergone acupuncture sessions to relieve the pain and stiffness. (paid for by medical insurance, of course!)
Naturally, I told her that acupuncture is woo. She went to her next scheduled session, and whatever placebo effect she experienced has mysteriously vanished, and now the acupuncture doesn't work for her. She half-pretended to be angry at me, I really ruined that for her. Interestingly enough, she was talking to the practitioner about it, and this woman admitted she was skeptical and didn't think acupuncture could actually do anything beneficial. However, some people seem to think it works and they're willing to pay $40 for her to stick some pins in them and twist them. One lady apparently shows up once a week or so with the sniffles, and only acupuncture can do the trick. The human mind is a bizarre thing. |
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18th August 2007, 12:24 AM | #2 |
New Blood
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fMRI evidence for acupuncture?
There is some evidence that acupuncture is valid. See especially the paper of Z.H. Cho et al. [PNAS 95: 2670-2673 (1998)], which is available online.
The paper is entitled "New findings of the correlation between acupoints and corresponding brain cortices using functional MRI". Briefly, the authors found that when acupoints were stimulated, the corresponding (according to acupuncture) part of the brain was activated. |
18th August 2007, 12:36 AM | #3 |
Banned
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18th August 2007, 12:40 AM | #4 |
Space Shuttle Door Gunner
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"At some point, you just get past the horror of someone having these beliefs, and begin to enjoy the sheer comedy of it all." Complexity And I dont care if your name is Norm or Jack, Or Dick. I dont see why you have to post your name everytime you make a comment./ its IRRELIVANT -Rwalsh |
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18th August 2007, 01:41 AM | #5 |
Under the Amazing One's Wing
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I read an article not too long ago of a study that found that the acupucnture placebo effect was better than the pill placebo effect. They compared placebo pills with sticking trick needles in (like those trick knives where the blade goes inside the handle and doesn't penetrate the skin). The trick needles were significantly better at reducing pain than the fake pills.
I have a feeling that, generally, the more dramatic the useless cure is, the more effective it is. |
18th August 2007, 02:33 AM | #6 |
Path Crosser
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Since many health insurance plans these days are paying for acupuncture I would like to propose a new form of woo that should also allow me to get treatment for a small co-payment. It could even be argued to be derivative of acupuncture.
Tattoo Therapy. C'mon... $5 for a tattoo instead of $500? Who could resist. |
18th August 2007, 06:51 AM | #7 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I resisted when they offered me the $500.
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18th August 2007, 07:05 AM | #8 |
Penultimate Amazing
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May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. Nature's peace will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees. The winds will blow their own freshness into you, and the storms their energy, while cares will drop off like autumn leaves. - John Muir |
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18th August 2007, 07:22 AM | #9 |
New Blood
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Evidence for acupuncture
Zep, I have not followed all the literature. I just cited Cho et al. because it was the first paper to present solid scientific evidence. Cho et al. has about 200 citations on GoogleScholar. A quick look there shows that several other research groups independently obtained similar results (and have published such in the peer-reviewed literature).
NormalDude, your reply makes no sense; you should have read my comment before replying. Or go crazy and read the abstract, which I include below.
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18th August 2007, 08:32 AM | #10 |
Muse
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The study reported in this article seems to contradict the notion that specific TCM acupuncture points are in any way more effective than, well, using any old points...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/health/sto...170061,00.html |
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18th August 2007, 09:00 AM | #11 |
Space Shuttle Door Gunner
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"At some point, you just get past the horror of someone having these beliefs, and begin to enjoy the sheer comedy of it all." Complexity And I dont care if your name is Norm or Jack, Or Dick. I dont see why you have to post your name everytime you make a comment./ its IRRELIVANT -Rwalsh |
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18th August 2007, 09:25 AM | #12 |
New Blood
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study size, etc.
Normal Dude, those are different types of studies. The study with 500000 has numerous confounding variables; hence it is only indicative. The study with 12 would seem to have no such confounding, and had a clean, highly-significant correlation; hence it is near proof. Moreover, the latter study has been independently replicated several times.
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18th August 2007, 09:44 AM | #13 |
Illuminator
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18th August 2007, 09:50 AM | #14 |
Muse
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Could it be that acupunture somehow stimulates some parts of the brain, but this stimulation has no effect on the alleged sickness?.
That would reconcile both studies. |
18th August 2007, 09:50 AM | #15 |
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18th August 2007, 10:04 AM | #16 |
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But can acupuncture be justified in the 21st century when there are cheaper and more convenient methods of pain relief available which are equally as effective? Also from the Ernst article in the Guardian linked to by Jon White:
Quote:
From Bob Park in 2004 (the same year as the Ernst article):
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Wallace Sampson on acupuncture last year:
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18th August 2007, 10:17 AM | #17 |
Space Shuttle Door Gunner
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I chose my words badly, by saying I wasn't totally against it and bringing it up to the 21st century, I meant it should have to pass the same levels of scrutiny that other present day treatment options must pass; to date, I don't think it has held up to that standard.
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"At some point, you just get past the horror of someone having these beliefs, and begin to enjoy the sheer comedy of it all." Complexity And I dont care if your name is Norm or Jack, Or Dick. I dont see why you have to post your name everytime you make a comment./ its IRRELIVANT -Rwalsh |
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18th August 2007, 11:42 AM | #18 |
Alta Viro
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18th August 2007, 12:49 PM | #19 |
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According to the ‘Desktop Guide to Complementary and Alternative Medicine’ (2nd Edition, 2006), which provides an analysis of the most up-to-date research available on CAM therapies, the results of systematic reviews of acupuncture show that it is effective for chronic back pain, dental pain, fibromyalgia, gastrointestinal endoscopy, idiopathic headache, postoperative nausea and vomiting, oocyte retrieval, and osteoarthritis of the knee. However, the clinical evidence section concludes with this:
Quote:
And this 'Systematic review of systematic reviews of acupuncture published 1996-2005' concludes that systematic reviews have overstated the effectiveness of acupuncture by including studies that are likely to be biased and that they provide no robust evidence that acupuncture works for any indication: http://www.ingentaconnect.com/conten...f5ou8rc0.alice So it would seem that things aren’t looking too good for acupuncturists in the long run. |
19th August 2007, 12:54 AM | #20 |
New Blood
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Miss Anthrope, even having 500000 subjects, confounding variables can mean that there is no significant effect found, even though a smaller, but more accurate, study demonstrates conclusively that the effect is highly significant. As Capsid indicated, what matters is the statistical significance. The statistical significance here is far too high to be due to chance, especially considering the replications.
Bule Wode, the placebo effect is not in operation here. My earlier comments explained this. |
19th August 2007, 01:47 AM | #21 |
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"At some point, you just get past the horror of someone having these beliefs, and begin to enjoy the sheer comedy of it all." Complexity And I dont care if your name is Norm or Jack, Or Dick. I dont see why you have to post your name everytime you make a comment./ its IRRELIVANT -Rwalsh |
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19th August 2007, 01:52 AM | #22 |
Space Shuttle Door Gunner
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"At some point, you just get past the horror of someone having these beliefs, and begin to enjoy the sheer comedy of it all." Complexity And I dont care if your name is Norm or Jack, Or Dick. I dont see why you have to post your name everytime you make a comment./ its IRRELIVANT -Rwalsh |
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19th August 2007, 01:56 AM | #23 |
Graduate Poster
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No it is for a real experiment. There is a need to keep the test subjects to a minimum. 4 subjects are infected with a virus and compared to those who were given a vaccine. All 4 virus challenged subjects must be infected however for the statistical analysis to be valid.
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19th August 2007, 02:08 AM | #24 |
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"At some point, you just get past the horror of someone having these beliefs, and begin to enjoy the sheer comedy of it all." Complexity And I dont care if your name is Norm or Jack, Or Dick. I dont see why you have to post your name everytime you make a comment./ its IRRELIVANT -Rwalsh |
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19th August 2007, 05:51 AM | #25 |
Philosopher
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Here's a question I haven't seen posed, and I ask it somewhat out of professional interest: Are there any accredited courses or institutions for teaching acupuncture in the United States? If so, what is the accrediting organization?
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19th August 2007, 05:57 AM | #26 |
Scholar
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"My wrist hurts."
"Let me stick this needle in you, that'll get your mind off it!" |
19th August 2007, 11:18 AM | #27 |
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There is a college that teaches acupuncture in Santa Fe, NM - Southwest Acupuncture College. A friend just graduated from it, and I believe it was a 5-year course. Now she has to pass some state and national tests, then she can go into practice. I'm not sure about accreditation but hopefully you can find out from the link.
Here is the ironic thing: about 10 days ago this friend had a very serious fall from her horse. Where did she go for treatment? The emergency room at the hospital. She is taking full advantage of the Western medicine - pain killers, splints, antibiotics and a wheel chair. Now, I think that is only sensible of her. At least she is not such a fool as to try and treat a broken clavicle, 3 broken ribs, a broken leg and internal injuries with acupuncture and Chinese medicine. I just hope she gives the same advice to any future patients! |
19th August 2007, 02:34 PM | #28 |
Philosopher
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From your link (make of this what you will):
Quote:
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I don't care what you do to the women and children, leave me alone! |
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19th August 2007, 03:40 PM | #29 |
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General accreditation means very little. The gist is usually that the institution is financially stable and has the facilities that it claims to have. There are (or were) two accredited schools of astrology.
Then there are recognized "accreditation commissions" that leave the inmates in charge of the asylum, as is often the case in quackery. |
20th August 2007, 08:40 AM | #30 |
Illuminator
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