|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
27th February 2007, 01:56 AM | #201 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,842
|
The use of "most likely" is perfectly acceptable term in science IMO. Science uses statistical analyses to give probabities of an outcome and therefore what is most likely. It's all a numbers game and it is most likely that a scientist will not give an absolute conclusion.
|
27th February 2007, 02:11 AM | #202 |
Muse
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 577
|
Wow. It's amazing all the different dramas going on at the same time in this forum. This thread escaped me until today... good times.
Eos, katana, JJM, Ben Tillly, debv, etc., (sorry to those I missed, of course) thanks for the good posts! nraden - thanks for the comic relief. I wish you were one of a kind... |
__________________
I am the first mammal to wear pants, yeah... - "Do the Evolution" - Pearl Jam www.stopsylvia.com |
|
27th February 2007, 05:04 AM | #203 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 18,774
|
|
27th February 2007, 09:54 AM | #204 |
Student
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 44
|
|
27th February 2007, 01:52 PM | #205 |
Mad Scientist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 13,749
|
|
__________________
Motion affecting a measuring device does not affect what is actually being measured, except to inaccurately measure it. the immaterial world doesn't matter, cause it ain't matter-Jeff Corey my karma ran over my dogma-vbloke The Lateral Truth: An Apostate's Bible Stories by Rebecca Bradley, read it! |
|
27th February 2007, 10:34 PM | #206 |
Student
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 46
|
|
27th February 2007, 10:36 PM | #207 |
Student
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 46
|
|
27th February 2007, 10:39 PM | #208 |
Student
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 46
|
|
27th February 2007, 10:44 PM | #209 |
Student
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 44
|
Don't worry folks, a substantive defense is forthcoming... wait for it...
|
27th February 2007, 10:50 PM | #210 |
Student
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 46
|
I have absolutely no evidence of that. For people who castigate Wiley for not having a "gold standard" study behind the protocol, why are you so willing to accept the claims of someone about being "hurt" by the protocol? Where are the doctors? Where are the records, blood work, charts? They have never been produced. I know of at least one of those stories on debv's website that is completely fabricated.
The one person they produced for 20/20 failed the test Wiley arranged to MD's in Santa Barbara to examione these cases, and the women too, FREE OF CHARGE, but not a single one materialized. There are hundreds (at least) of women that Wiley follows on a regualr basis and these problems have not occured. Go to the website, call a doctor listed there and ask them if their patients experienced these symtoms. And unless you do, don't bring it up, because it's hypocritical. Quit wasting my time. |
27th February 2007, 10:56 PM | #211 |
Student
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 44
|
|
27th February 2007, 11:03 PM | #212 |
Student
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 44
|
|
27th February 2007, 11:37 PM | #213 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 14,076
|
I'll only speak for myself and say that I wouldn't "accept the claims" of anyone without evidence. You know, like claims that somehow women will live longer and healthier lives thanks to an overdose (at least compared to mainstream recommended minimum and maximum dosages) of female hormones. Trying to shift the attention away from Wiley having no proper scientific evidence to support her protocol probably isn't going to go over in this forum.
Quote:
In addition to addressing debv's question about your claim that Wiley is not "prescribing" (despite the video evidence), I'd also ask you to address my contention that profit is the primary motive here and that Wiley is, despite your earlier contention to the contrary, providing [expensive] training to both doctors and pharmacists during the "certification" process. In closing, I'll note that I'm not impressed by the semantical game of "recommending" as opposed to "prescribing." That's a quack's way of avoiding legal trouble and little more. |
28th February 2007, 01:44 AM | #214 |
Student
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 44
|
Neil Raden, 10/30/2006:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
1st March 2007, 09:36 PM | #215 |
Student
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 46
|
Do you know what the "mainstream recommended" doses are? Are you aware that most of these doses are oral? The Wiley Protocol is topical. It's what shows up in serum that counts. Can you tell me what recommended mainstream serum levels are? Besides, mainstream and BHRT don't belong in the same sentence. Mainstream is Premarin or Prometrium or nothing at all. But if you want to look at doses, try the Estrasorb patch. The recommended dose of that is very close to Wiley.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
2. Doctors do not need to attend Wiley's class to prescribe. They're doctors, they can do what they want. They don't even need to attend the class to appear on the website. They just have to be good doctors, as judged by their patients, which may be the most radical part of Wiley's program 3. What the hell is wrong with making a profit? I know yuour contention is that that is the ONLY motive for promoting this, but you're wrong. Besides, do you have any idea how money all of the doctors make on BHRT, and the pharmacists? Or, for that matter, supplements?
Quote:
|
1st March 2007, 10:12 PM | #216 |
Mad Scientist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 13,749
|
Fact: Taking too many hormones as prescribed by an ignoramous doesn't cure anything.
Fact: Your wife has harmed people. Fact: There is actually no reason to take too many hormones and expect anything but side effects. I pointed out all this and WHY, wayyy in the beginning of this topic. There has only been evidence of your ignorance, and circular whining. Why are you still here? You have nothing to post but questions in response to questions.
Quote:
It'd be about TIME. When are you going to understand that hormones are hormones? It doesn't matter if you get lactase from a plant or animal source, it is still just going to break down lactose molecules. It doesn't matter where you get a hormone that does what it does in the human body. It will still do the same thing, no matter where it comes from originally. What you blather on about is about as logical as saying water isolated from a cow is BAD for you compared to water from grass. |
__________________
Motion affecting a measuring device does not affect what is actually being measured, except to inaccurately measure it. the immaterial world doesn't matter, cause it ain't matter-Jeff Corey my karma ran over my dogma-vbloke The Lateral Truth: An Apostate's Bible Stories by Rebecca Bradley, read it! |
|
2nd March 2007, 06:16 AM | #217 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 14,076
|
Well, there are many brands and dosages of estradiol patches, none of which carry the brand name Estrasorb (which is an "estradiol topical emulsion" - you know, a cream, which is something you should know) so I'll give a couple examples - note that I'm looking at doses for "vasomotor symptoms" which in layman's parlance means "hot flashes"; doses for osteoporosis prevention vary only slightly, if at all:
1. Climara comes in a patch applied weekly, delivering 0.025 mg (note those two zeros, they appear often in estradiol dosing) daily. Not only is more than that not recommended except in cases where women have severe symptoms, but the recommendation is to reevaluate every 3-6 months and determine whether or not treatment should be continued. In other words, it's not intended to be used indefinitely. 2. Alora and Estraderm patches are applied twice weekly, delivering 0.05 mg daily. Cautions [obviously] similar to above. 3. Vivelle patch is also applied twice weekly, delivering 0.0375 mg daily. Note: The above numbers come from my "Ready Reference Bookshelf" drug reference, by Lippincott Williams & Wilkins, 2005 edition (in my job - medical transcription - I use the web to supplement when necessary on newer drugs). But, why don't we deal with creams? 1. We'll start with Estrasorb since you mentioned it, despite being incorrect about its delivery mechanism. Each packet of Estrasorb contains 1.74 gm of drug product, providing systemic delivery of 0.05 mg of estradiol per day. The daily recommended dosing is two packets, effectively delivering 0.1 mg of estradiol. Note that this is the maximum tested dose of the product, at least as reported by Esprit Pharma in their "prescribing information." Further, check out the precautions section of the prescribing instructions for a great deal more information on the number of complications possible, which also provides good reasons why someone without a medical degree shouldn't be making "recommendations" to patients. 2. Most other estradiol creams that I can find are intended for vaginal use, specifically for vulvar/vaginal atrophy, so I'll cover Estrace (perhaps the most common) as an example. The cream itself is the same as that described in the excerpt debv posted earlier, 0.1 mg per gram of cream. The "usual dosage" of Estrace is to apply 2-4 gm vaginally daily for one or two weeks, then reduce to half initial dosage for one or two weeks and, if necessary, a maintenance dosage of 1 gm 1-3 times per week. There's a pattern here. The goal is to minimize the dosage of such hormones because they can be dangerous, and it doesn't matter whether they're bioidentical or not (hello, "identical"). I watched the videos debv posted and they show Wiley "recommending" dosages three or more times the above properly tested recommendations. Further, these hormones aren't intended, nor should they be used, as a "cure-all" and there's no evidence that a woman on said hormones will live longer than one who doesn't take them. In fact, considering the risks of complications, it would seem very wise to minimize a woman's reliance on them.
Quote:
As for not having any "idea how much evidence there is," you can shut me up right now by providing one properly controlled, double-blinded, peer-reviewed study of the Wiley Protocol, particularly in comparison to "traditional" hormonal therapy. While I'd expect more than one (many) to be done over time, all it would take is one and I won't say another word.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
b) You've made that assertion before, that doctors are raking in the bucks on prescribing non-bioidentical hormone replacement therapy. It's way past time for you to start providing evidence for this Wyeth/Premarin/doctor/pharmacist conspiracy or drop it.
Quote:
Again, I'll restate what I said above. Give proof of real testing as opposed to simply considering anyone on the "protocol" as a study participant. Short of that, it's just snake oil...dangerous snake oil. |
2nd March 2007, 07:42 PM | #218 |
Student
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 46
|
A daily dose of Estrasorb is 3.5gm on the skin. The baseline dose for Wiley is 8gm. It escalates rapidly for a few days around day 12, then drops back, but over a period of a month, the total APPLIED TO THE SKIN amount is 248gm or roughly 8gm per day. Keep in mind that the women on debv's list routinely use much more estradiol than this. We don't know what the delivered amount means, that is just a statistic. Women are not flat, their levels fluctuate. Wiley measures serum concentrations at the peak, Day 12, and looks for levels in the 200-400 range. That is not high for a healthy adult woman.
So Wiley is roughly twice the applied amount of Estrasorb, at the recommended level, but given the political environment around HRT, those levels are low. Wiley is not "supra-pharmalogical" as reported elsewhere and quoted here, WITHOUT FACT CHECKING.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
2nd March 2007, 08:05 PM | #219 |
Mad Scientist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 13,749
|
I see. You're just hanging around for the last word. That's another thread though.
|
__________________
Motion affecting a measuring device does not affect what is actually being measured, except to inaccurately measure it. the immaterial world doesn't matter, cause it ain't matter-Jeff Corey my karma ran over my dogma-vbloke The Lateral Truth: An Apostate's Bible Stories by Rebecca Bradley, read it! |
|
2nd March 2007, 09:41 PM | #220 |
Student
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 44
|
|
2nd March 2007, 10:46 PM | #221 |
Student
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 46
|
|
3rd March 2007, 07:45 PM | #222 |
Mad Scientist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 13,749
|
You need me to add more relevance? The threads and information at the beginning weren't enough?
What about you? same old nonsensical circular whining with absolutely no answers to questions posted over and over again. It's yourself and Wiley that should be embarrassed. |
__________________
Motion affecting a measuring device does not affect what is actually being measured, except to inaccurately measure it. the immaterial world doesn't matter, cause it ain't matter-Jeff Corey my karma ran over my dogma-vbloke The Lateral Truth: An Apostate's Bible Stories by Rebecca Bradley, read it! |
|
20th April 2007, 01:11 AM | #223 |
Student
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 44
|
Wiley's Wikipedia Page
Our compatriot, nraden, created a Wikipedia page for T.S. Wiley a while back. Sometimes he makes contributions as Wikipedian Nraden (though he hasn't so far declared his affiliation with T.S. Wiley -- namely, that he is her husband) and sometimes anonymously as 72.205.193.253 (evidence: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2133249#post2133249) -- though to be fair, those contributions could conceivably have come from anyone in the Wiley household.
He seems to want to suppress certain information, like the fact that his wife has been claiming a B.A. in anthropology, even though she never got a college degree. I've contributed some details that never came up in this thread, including what Wiley actually claims in her book, Sex, Lies, and Menopause. Just thought you might want to know. |
22nd April 2007, 11:14 PM | #224 |
Student
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 44
|
Last Thursday, T.S. Wiley appeared as a witness before the Senate Special Committee on Aging for their hearing, Bioidentical Hormones: Sound Science or Bad Medicine?
Video Her testimony begins at about 1:19:48. Given what has come up in this thread, you might find particularly curious her statement at 1:38:33: "I don't ever involve myself with individual patient response. That belongs to their doctor." There is also her assertion that the only adverse events reported from the Wiley Protocol have been just two blood clots. And one might wonder what progesterone treatment of people with head trauma has to do with treatment of climacteric symptoms. See also: http://wileywatch.org/letter_to_senator_smith. |
23rd April 2007, 03:28 AM | #225 |
Illuminator
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 4,812
|
|
23rd April 2007, 01:27 PM | #226 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 445
|
|
__________________
"Democracy is the worst form of government.. except for all the others" -- Winston Churchill |
|
23rd April 2007, 04:08 PM | #227 |
Student
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 44
|
Also, recall what nraden wrote on November 28:
Present tense, "is conducting". But, pressed, he positively refused to provide any details that could be used to verify this -- and just to spite me, ostensively -- beyond that it's the University of Texas. T.S. Wiley's testimony, April 19:
Quote:
|
24th April 2007, 12:16 AM | #228 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 445
|
Am I the only one here who thinks Ms. Wiley should be thrown in jail?
OK, that was a rhetorical question. |
__________________
"Democracy is the worst form of government.. except for all the others" -- Winston Churchill |
|
24th April 2007, 04:42 AM | #229 |
Illuminator
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 4,812
|
Well, it has crossed MY mind that what she is doing is a criminal act. She is knowingly providing women with what I believe to be harmful, if not potentially life-threatening, compounds. She is deliberately providing them with inaccurate information, is deceiving them about her credentials, and is making a profit in the process. The first woman who got a blood clot should have sued the pants off this [rule 8]. It just bothers me to no end that the FDA permits this kind of practice, and I feel the same way about the way that it turns a blind eye to the supplement/herbal remedy industry. Why did it take people dying from taking ephedra for them to step in? Why is our friggin' Senate listening to this fear-mongering fraud committing what amounts to, in my humble opinion, medical malpractice? Oh, that's right. It's our stupid government. OK. End of rant (for now ). |
24th April 2007, 05:44 AM | #230 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,853
|
|
24th April 2007, 05:58 AM | #231 |
Illuminator
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 4,812
|
|
24th April 2007, 09:44 AM | #232 |
Student
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 44
|
Last night T.S. Wiley issued an e-mail responding to the letter to Senator Smith. And I responded to T.S. Wiley.
http://wileywatch.org/t_s_wiley_responds I hope that answers your question, osmosis. |
24th April 2007, 10:19 AM | #233 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 3,431
|
debv, hurrah for keeping on this.
|
__________________
'Lord Emsworth, that amiable but bone-headed peer, stood at the window drooping like a wet sock.' -PG Wodehouse, The Crime Wave at Blandings |
|
24th April 2007, 05:06 PM | #234 |
I'm watching you
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 5,320
|
|
24th April 2007, 05:08 PM | #235 |
Illuminator
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 4,812
|
|
24th April 2007, 09:54 PM | #236 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 445
|
|
__________________
"Democracy is the worst form of government.. except for all the others" -- Winston Churchill |
|
24th April 2007, 11:42 PM | #237 |
Student
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 44
|
I neglected to point out that the study mentioned by nraden on November 28, the (proposed) trial that "has no connection to Wiley at all," is to be headed up by Julie Taguchi, MD, a long-time pillar of T.S. Wiley's Oz-like credibility.
I know it must seem like I never get tired of pointing out Neil Raden's lies, but it seems he never gets tired of accommodating me. |
25th April 2007, 12:13 AM | #238 |
Student
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 44
|
Oh and thank you bluess.
|
25th April 2007, 04:54 AM | #239 |
I'm watching you
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 5,320
|
|
25th April 2007, 05:01 AM | #240 |
Illuminator
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 4,812
|
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|