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Old 16th December 2016, 02:19 PM   #2721
jond
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Jabba -

I doubt I have ever read such a confusion of concepts in my life.

Let's examine the concept that you are the only thing you know exists. If that's true, then you don't know anything else exists - Mt. Rainier or anybody. Thus, you absolutely cannot determine the odds of you existing because you have no information whatsoever.

You cannot speculate as to how many possible people or arrangements of atoms there could be or how long the universe had to get any of it done because you don't know that the universe even exists. You cannot use this to devise odds of anything. And you certainly can't import an argument that nothing is knowable back into a structure where we agree things are knowable.

You cannot even state that you existed one minute ago. For all you know, you were fully formed just this moment complete with memories of things that never happened. Nor can you be certain you'll exist a minute from now. Because you know nothing other than that you exist.

Solipsism is nifty so long as you don't ask it to do anything, because it can't. It can just sit there being useless for describing any aspect of the universe - which is exactly what you are attempting to force it to do.





The confusion resides entirely within you. I'm not confused at all about what you are trying to say or why you're wrong.





Nope. A process is not a thing. An illusion is certainly not a thing. This becomes clear when we describe other bodily processes like, say, digestion. Is your digestion of the food you ate today the same digestion as yesterday or twenty years ago? Are there infinite possible digestions from which your digestion at this moment came to be, meaning that your digestion right now had an infinitely small chance of existing? Does this lead you to believe your digestion is immortal?

I hope you answered no. I hope you thought those questions were ridiculous. I hope you see that they are equally ridiculous when we substitute cognition for digestion.





That leads to nothing other than you knowing you exist at this moment. You can't even know whether you existed when you started reading this post. You certainly can't bring that back into an argument which depends on the axiom that the universe exists.





This is nonsense. You just argued that the opposite of this with your solipsism soliloquy.
How unfortunate it is that Jabba will ignore this excellent post.
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Old 16th December 2016, 02:24 PM   #2722
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- Would you be reincarnated if we produced an identical sense of self?
No. And that's why your argument is wrong.

(Although it would be a cool way to fool people into thinking there were another one of me, assuming the "duplicate" went along with the charade.)
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Old 16th December 2016, 06:04 PM   #2723
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
< snipped for brevity >

- My sense of self, even if just a process or illusion, is still the only 'thing' that I know exists.
- And, if it didn't exist, there might as well be nothing -- it would be as if there were nothing – because, this self is the only observer I have.
- And, if my self never exists, there might as well never be anything...

- See what I mean?
- Probably not. But, I’ll keep tryin.

< snipped for brevity >
Jabba: you made this same argument the last time you claimed that you were "special".

You were wrong then, and you are wrong now.

And please quit the pathetic attempts at humor, like this little misspelling.
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Old 16th December 2016, 06:39 PM   #2724
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- Would you be reincarnated if we produced an identical sense of self?
Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
As far as everyone else, including the copy of Dave, was concerned, yes, because the duplicate self would be identical in every respect to the original...
Dave,
-Does this mean that if we could produce a duplicate self, OOFLam would be wrong?
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Old 16th December 2016, 06:52 PM   #2725
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Originally Posted by jond View Post
How unfortunate it is that Jabba will ignore this excellent post.

Thanks.


Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
-Does this mean that if we could produce a duplicate self, OOFLam would be wrong?

Jiggawhaaa? First of all, OOFLam is a nonsense word that you made up. Nobody has ever agreed that your definition of it is either relevant or self-consistent. Asking someone whether your personal thing would be affected by some circumstance is like ... asking a neighbor if his driveway repaving changes your view of the James Buchanan presidency.


Second, there's no such thing as a duplicate self because the "self" is a process, not a thing. If I go 60 mph in my car today, tomorrow when I hit 60 mph it will not be a duplicate 60 mph. There's no such concept. It doesn't exist. This, sir, is an ex-parrot.
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Old 16th December 2016, 07:01 PM   #2726
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
One wonders what definition of 'organic' you are using.

Maybe the Chinese definition.
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Old 16th December 2016, 11:45 PM   #2727
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- My best guess, so far, as to why the current existence of MPSoCS...

It didn't work, Jabba: everyone realised that "MPSoCS" is just another term you are using for the same concept. Perhaps you should try underlining it or putting it in italics.
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Old 17th December 2016, 12:26 AM   #2728
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Clearly, we have spent a goodly amount of time dealing with this issue -- so, much of what I have to say I have said already. Hopefully, I can add something more convincing, or just say what I've already said more convincingly.
The problem isn't that you haven't expressed your arguments convincingly enough, Jabba. We all understand your arguments, and your reasoning process. The problem is that your arguments are wrong.

Instead of simply repeating yourself, why not go back to where you last made these arguments (or the time before that, or the time before that) and this time actually read and try to understand the responses you got? The mistakes you are making have already been explained to you patiently, in detail, and in the simplest possible terms. If you make them again there are people here who will once again explain them to you patiently, in detail, and in the simplest possible terms. but you really are wasting their time and yours. Just re-read and try to understand what you have already been told.
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Old 17th December 2016, 12:33 AM   #2729
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Jabba speak English. Nothing you've said needs or deserves its own new special made up term.
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Old 17th December 2016, 03:21 AM   #2730
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Jiggawhaaa? First of all, OOFLam is a nonsense word that you made up. Nobody has ever agreed that your definition of it is either relevant or self-consistent. Asking someone whether your personal thing would be affected by some circumstance is like ... asking a neighbor if his driveway repaving changes your view of the James Buchanan presidency.


Second, there's no such thing as a duplicate self because the "self" is a process, not a thing. If I go 60 mph in my car today, tomorrow when I hit 60 mph it will not be a duplicate 60 mph. There's no such concept. It doesn't exist. This, sir, is an ex-parrot.
This is a lucid, intelligent, well thought out post, all the contrary of Jabba's
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Old 17th December 2016, 03:47 AM   #2731
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Jabba speak English. Nothing you've said needs or deserves its own new special made up term.
I for one love the used car sales style of Jabba's and how he tries to convince anyone about the great value of his soylent green.

He's just looking for someone to partially agree with his nonsense, only for instinctive reasons (probably his unoriginal "philosophy" of eternal souls takes its drive from his survival instinct with a narcissistic component), and that's why he wouldn't stop. You can't reason with individuals in such state, the same way you can't reason to prevent your dog from humping legs.

That's why he just addresses the ones whom he detects "doable" and ignores those who seem to be unlikely to yield. Make no mistake, the whole thing is as primitive as that.

That doesn't mean it is not amusing and that we shouldn't stop doing what we do.
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Old 17th December 2016, 08:38 AM   #2732
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
-Does this mean that if we could produce a duplicate self, OOFLam would be wrong?
No. Because two is more than one.
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Old 17th December 2016, 10:09 AM   #2733
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Does this mean that if we could produce a duplicate self, OOFLam would be wrong?
Don't change the thought experiment. By "produce a duplicate self" you don't get to sneak in your begged question. The thought experiment is to produce an exactly duplicate organism. Under the scientific model, the duplicate organism would have the same sense of self -- an identical consciousness -- as the original, although they would begin to diverge from that moment on. There would be two organisms, not one. Each would thereafter have an independent life. Consciousness would manifest itself as an emergent property in each organism. No, not two "consciousnesses," just consciousness. Emergent properties don't come in discrete units, and you really need to stop trying to force "consciousness" or "self" or "sense of self" to mean an immortal soul or any other entity.

I have no clue why you're trying to tie the outcome of the thought experiment to the truth value of "one finite life." It's a thought experiment. Its purpose is as a framework for hypothetical reasoning. Hypothetically if you could keep cloning an organism you might hypothetically achieve some form of immortality. But as it affects your argument, it's tantamount to your old chestnuts that boil down to, "If I had any evidence, would you agree I had proven my case?"
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Old 17th December 2016, 10:20 AM   #2734
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What happens if we go 2020/1 years back in time and duplicate baby Jesus?
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Old 17th December 2016, 11:15 AM   #2735
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
What happens if we go 2020/1 years back in time and duplicate baby Jesus?
Then you'd need two shrouds.
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Old 17th December 2016, 11:26 AM   #2736
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Then you'd need two shrouds.
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Old 17th December 2016, 10:24 PM   #2737
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Then you'd need two shrouds.
...and eight legs, no?
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Old 17th December 2016, 10:58 PM   #2738
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Jabba.

Take a match and light it. You now have a fire. Take the first match and light a second match. You now have two fires. Blow out one of the matches. You now have one fire.

Did any part of that not make sense? Did you just have a crisis of faith over which one is the original fire and if the second fire became the first fire or if the matches had some special magical fire that was in them just waiting to be let out or where the first fire went when you blew it out?

No? Okay then.
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Old 17th December 2016, 11:45 PM   #2739
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Did any part of that not make sense?
The two sentences where you typed 'know' instead of 'now' didn't even make grammatical sense.

More seriously - that was a good effort, but Jabba still won't see it because he doesn't want to.
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Old 18th December 2016, 06:14 AM   #2740
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
The two sentences where you typed 'know' instead of 'now' didn't even make grammatical sense.

More seriously - that was a good effort, but Jabba still won't see it because he doesn't want to.
I am fond of that analogy though.

The flame is a process.
Once the fuel runs out, the flame dies.
The flame is in all likelihood unique in its particular configuration.
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Old 18th December 2016, 08:48 AM   #2741
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
-Does this mean that if we could produce a duplicate self, OOFLam would be wrong?
Exactly why do you think that?

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Old 18th December 2016, 08:57 AM   #2742
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
-Does this mean that if we could produce a duplicate self, OOFLam would be wrong?

Once more with feeling: The self is not a thing.
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Old 18th December 2016, 09:18 AM   #2743
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
-Does this mean that if we could produce a duplicate self, OOFLam would be wrong?
You wouldn't be trying to put words in his mouth, would you?
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Old 18th December 2016, 07:01 PM   #2744
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
Once more with feeling: The self is not a thing.

And to quote "Once More With Feeling":

I've been making shows of trading blows
Just hoping no one knows
That I'm just going through the motions
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Old 18th December 2016, 07:11 PM   #2745
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Exactly why do you think that?

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Old 18th December 2016, 07:40 PM   #2746
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Does this mean that if we could produce a duplicate self, OOFLam would be wrong?
Jabba how in the name of the Dunder-Mifflin paper company are any of us supposed to have any clue how the term we have no idea how you are using ("self") and the term you've completely made up ("OOFLam") are supposed to interact?

Jabba I have no more idea if a reproduced self as you use the term would prove the meaningless nonsense that is OOFLam wrong any more then I know if a Jabberwocky and a Wendigo would be able to have viable offspring.
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Old 19th December 2016, 09:16 AM   #2747
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
...or oxygen deprivation during NDEs ... but the true believers will find there new evidence for their arbitrary "souls" to be eternal. What an immorality!
You can also get to the 'the cave' or the 'tunnel of light' by pressing on your eyeballs with the lids closed.

I can open gates to other dimensions!
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Old 19th December 2016, 09:18 AM   #2748
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Jabba.

Take a match and light it. You now have a fire. Take the first match and light a second match. You now have two fires. Blow out one of the matches. You now have one fire.

Did any part of that not make sense? Did you just have a crisis of faith over which one is the original fire and if the second fire became the first fire or if the matches had some special magical fire that was in them just waiting to be let out or where the first fire went when you blew it out?

No? Okay then.
The buddhist conundrum, which many people bend out of shape, usually when they talk about the room that the lamp is re-lit in.

It is Proof of Mind!

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Old 19th December 2016, 09:20 AM   #2749
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Originally Posted by The Sparrow View Post
I am fond of that analogy though.

The flame is a process.
Once the fuel runs out, the flame dies.
The flame is in all likelihood unique in its particular configuration.
That is remarkable, what is the chance that a single flame would exist?

And that it implies the Eternal Flame!

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Old 19th December 2016, 09:27 AM   #2750
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
You can also get to the 'the cave' or the 'tunnel of light' by pressing on your eyeballs with the lids closed.

I can open gates to other dimensions!
I used to do that when I was a child, and I only managed to get the pointillistic geometrical patterns, mostly in green and red that were depicted 20 to 50 thousand years ago in ancient caves (a fact I learnt like 35 years later).
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Old 19th December 2016, 09:32 AM   #2751
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
I used to do that when I was a child, and I only managed to get the pointillistic geometrical patterns, mostly in green and red that were depicted 20 to 50 thousand years ago in ancient caves (a fact I learnt like 35 years later).

I'm getting odd patterns of light. I remember dancing geometric patterns in color when I was a child. Now I'm worried about that.
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Old 19th December 2016, 09:56 AM   #2752
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
I'm getting odd patterns of light. I remember dancing geometric patterns in color when I was a child. Now I'm worried about that.
Me too ... I suspect I may have IOP higher than normal, and as I am in a cavalcade towards type II diabetes it wouldn't surprise me if I have some metabolic problems at retinal level.

I also remember I suffered severe orthostatic hypotension as a pre-teen and I saw all tinted in orange when I stood up quickly. I came to know later that as a typical description of how an abduction by UFOs start (Why should I be so rational at a tender age? I lost the opportunity of a life of permanent dopey awe)
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Old 19th December 2016, 10:03 AM   #2753
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It has been silent for a while from the OP, which means
-a fringe reset to a different sub sub sub topic
-a 75 line post is coming again where he re-states with slightly different punctuation what he has restated many times already.
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Old 19th December 2016, 10:10 AM   #2754
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Originally Posted by The Sparrow View Post
It has been silent for a while from the OP, which means
-a fringe reset to a different sub sub sub topic
-a 75 line post is coming again where he re-states with slightly different punctuation what he has restated many times already.
Naw, it comes with being immortal. You have plenty of time for everything so there's no rush. Back when I was immortal I was the same way.
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Old 19th December 2016, 10:13 AM   #2755
aleCcowaN
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Originally Posted by The Sparrow View Post
It has been silent for a while from the OP, which means
-a fringe reset to a different sub sub sub topic
-a 75 line post is coming again where he re-states with slightly different punctuation what he has restated many times already.
Probably. There is nobody left whom he's talking to who don't pose challenging questions back.

The fringe reset may be blog posts in the usual venues telling a distorted story of the debate here and how he's rightfully winning it.

Anything if that avoids further contamination and forum level going to the dogs.

At least that Bayesian nonsense has died.
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Old 19th December 2016, 10:14 AM   #2756
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Naw, it comes with being immortal. You have plenty of time for everything so there's no rush. Back when I was immortal I was the same way.
What was it like? Were you bored? I'd figure after the 10 billionth pizza, I would have had enough of life.
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Old 19th December 2016, 10:29 AM   #2757
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Originally Posted by The Sparrow View Post
What was it like? Were you bored? I'd figure after the 10 billionth pizza, I would have had enough of life.
I don't know how it might have been, my immortality only lasted through my 20's. But it was great while it did.
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Old 19th December 2016, 11:10 AM   #2758
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
I don't know how it might have been, my immortality only lasted through my 20's. But it was great while it did.
Perhaps Jabba can help. Being immortal I'm sure he has memories of his zillion past lives and thus can speak to what it is like living forever.

Unless of course he has no memories of past lives, or in fact anything before he was age 5, in which case, being immortal would feel and be exactly like this is the only life you've ever had or will have.
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Old 21st December 2016, 09:08 AM   #2759
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave and Sparrow,
- I see this as equivalent to the Mt Rainier and the Texas Sharpshooter arguments. Do you agree?
- If so, I agree that this issue deserves more consideration. And, for now at least, I also think that it is the weakest part of my argument.
Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
Yes.
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,

- Good.
- Sorry this is taking so long, but for me, the issue/reasoning is very complicated and difficult to put together (though, I feel 99% sure I'm right).

- How is my sense of a particular and continuous self different from Mt Rainier, a bucket of sand thrown on a floor and random bullet holes on the side of a barn -- when it comes to the likelihood of my current existence -- given modern science vs the likelihood of Mt Rainier, etc, given modern science? (Sorry about that.)
- Apparently, a personal sense of continuous self is an intrinsic/inherent aspect of (the emergent property of) consciousness, and it cannot be reproduced -- when there is no aspect of the other situations that cannot be reproduced.

- That is a way that it's different -- but, does that difference make my sense of self a legitimate "E" in the Bayes formula for P(H|E), when the existence of Mt Rainier is not? I'll be back.
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- My best guess, so far, as to why the current existence of MPSoCS (my particular sense of continuous self) makes for a legitimate Bayesian target, when other extremely unlikely 'events' (such as Mt Rainier) do not, is that in order to make for such a target, it needs to be set apart from other selves in a critical way (like the 2nd cousin of the controller of the lottery in regard to winning the lottery).
- And, at least in a sense, it is -- in that the other selves are only apparent -- mine is for sure. (Keep in mind that I accept that MPSoCS may be only a process or illusion -- just that, in such a sense, it is real.)
- Anyway, so far, I think that is the critical factor -- even though, I fully expect that your MPSoCS is also set apart...
- Confusing, but...

- Clearly, we have spent a goodly amount of time dealing with this issue -- so, much of what I have to say I have said already. Hopefully, I can add something more convincing, or just say what I've already said more convincingly.

- My sense of self, even if just a process or illusion, is still the only 'thing' that I know exists.
- And, if it didn't exist, there might as well be nothing -- it would be as if there were nothing – because, this self is the only observer I have.
- And, if my self never exists, there might as well never be anything...
- See what I mean?
- Probably not. But, I’ll keep tryin.

- And then, as there is no pool of potential selves, there is no limit as to the number of selves possible. I was, in that sense, brand new -- created out of nothing (an inherent part of an emergent property)-- and the likelihood of my self currently existing -- given OOFLam -- is only 7 billion over infinity.
- My existence under OOFLam would be an ENORMOUS coincident. I would be DAMNED lucky! And, I’m the only one I have!
Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
As far as everyone else, including the copy of Dave, was concerned, yes, because the duplicate self would be identical in every respect to the original...
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
-Does this mean that if we could produce a duplicate self, OOFLam would be wrong?
Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
No. Because two is more than one.
- I've been sick...

- But reincarnation is one of the alternatives under ~OOFLam. If there is such a thing as reincarnation, OOFLam is wrong.
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Old 21st December 2016, 09:16 AM   #2760
godless dave
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I didn't say producing a copy of myself would result in reincarnation. I said it would feel like reincarnation to the copy, because the copy would be identical to the original. It would look like reincarnation to everyone but the original, because the copy would be identical to the original.

Even the original could never be sure that he was the original, just as I cannot be sure I was not replaced by a copy with my memories sometime last night, or even within the last 15 seconds. I can be pretty confident that didn't happen because the technology to do such a thing doesn't exist, but if it did, I would not be able to tell if I were the original or a copy.

Regardless, an identical copy is a separate object from the original. If you have two identical quarters in your pocket, do you have 25 cents or 50 cents?
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