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Old 21st December 2016, 09:19 AM   #2761
JoeBentley
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
But reincarnation is one of the alternatives under ~OOFLam. If there is such a thing as reincarnation, OOFLam is wrong.
Jabba... nobody cares about your made up term OOFLam. Everything you say where you reference it is meaningless. Your transparent attempts at turning "mortality" into some mathematical long shot by conjuring needless new terms for it have been debunked more times then even the most tolerant person would deem necessary.
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Old 21st December 2016, 09:23 AM   #2762
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
But reincarnation is one of the alternatives under ~OOFLam.
The thought experiment is not reincarnation. And it's only a hypothetical, not something for which you have evidence. Sorry you've been sick, and I hope you feel better, but this is probably the most comical, frantic attempt at grabbing straws I've seen from you.
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Old 21st December 2016, 09:56 AM   #2763
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Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
If you have two identical quarters in your pocket, do you have 25 cents or 50 cents?
Because the other one is!
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Old 21st December 2016, 11:05 AM   #2764
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I've been sick...
A new iteration of the "poor old man" apologetic. If you were really sick, my sympathies. I don't believe it though.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- But reincarnation is one of the alternatives under ~OOFLam. If there is such a thing as reincarnation, OOFLam is wrong.
Think about that. Only One Finite Life At Most. Your definition. You claim that this somehow is violated by reincarnation. You will have to explain that. There is no evidence that reincarnation happens anywhere, ever. How can the observed facts be obviated by something that has been observed nowhere at any time?
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Old 21st December 2016, 12:00 PM   #2765
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Think about that. Only One Finite Life At Most. Your definition. You claim that this somehow is violated by reincarnation. You will have to explain that. There is no evidence that reincarnation happens anywhere, ever. How can the observed facts be obviated by something that has been observed nowhere at any time?

And back around we go to the desperate plea that some story that appears in a book about NDEs might show some small sliver of evidence that the immaterial soul exists.

"Please," Jabba will beg, "Please agree that souls exist so I can prove souls exist."
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Old 21st December 2016, 12:53 PM   #2766
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
"Please," Jabba will beg, "Please agree that souls exist so I can prove souls exist."
Isn't Jabba the reincarnation of Euclides? That way he could say "let's postulate all right angles are equal to one another and souls exist"
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Old 21st December 2016, 02:18 PM   #2767
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post

- But reincarnation is one of the alternatives under ~OOFLam. If there is such a thing as reincarnation, OOFLam is wrong.
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Old 22nd December 2016, 07:23 PM   #2768
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
And back around we go to the desperate plea that some story that appears in a book about NDEs might show some small sliver of evidence that the immaterial soul exists.

"Please," Jabba will beg, "Please agree that souls exist so I can prove souls exist."

Okay, it looks like we'll be taking a short break for Christmas.

If it is a matter of Jabba's health, I certainly wish him a speedy recovery. His philosophies are hopelessly borked, but my understanding is he's a kindly old man with children and grandchildren in upstate New York. Wishing him well.
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Old 22nd December 2016, 10:19 PM   #2769
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Okay, it looks like we'll be taking a short break for Christmas.

If it is a matter of Jabba's health, I certainly wish him a speedy recovery. His philosophies are hopelessly borked, but my understanding is he's a kindly old man with children and grandchildren in upstate New York. Wishing him well.
I doubt anyone bears ill will to jabba, just his idiotic ideas. But goodwill to all. Tis the season and what have you. Shut up, shut down and enjoy whatever time you have.
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Old 23rd December 2016, 07:56 AM   #2770
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Exclamation

Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
I didn't say producing a copy of myself would result in reincarnation. I said it would feel like reincarnation to the copy, because the copy would be identical to the original. It would look like reincarnation to everyone but the original, because the copy would be identical to the original.

Even the original could never be sure that he was the original, just as I cannot be sure I was not replaced by a copy with my memories sometime last night, or even within the last 15 seconds. I can be pretty confident that didn't happen because the technology to do such a thing doesn't exist, but if it did, I would not be able to tell if I were the original or a copy.

Regardless, an identical copy is a separate object from the original. If you have two identical quarters in your pocket, do you have 25 cents or 50 cents?
Dave,

- I didn't understand what you meant...

- Anyway, one step at a time.
- Do you accept that even if your self is only an illusion or process, it is still real? Your brain/body is alive, and it produces, or receives, a sense of continuous self?
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Old 23rd December 2016, 08:10 AM   #2771
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,

- I didn't understand what you meant...

- Anyway, one step at a time.
- Do you accept that even if your self is only an illusion or process, it is still real? Your brain/body is alive, and it produces, or receives, a sense of continuous self?
Under H, it produces it.
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Old 23rd December 2016, 08:12 AM   #2772
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,

- I didn't understand what you meant...

- Anyway, one step at a time.
- Do you accept that even if your self is only an illusion or process, it is still real? Your brain/body is alive, and it produces, or receives, a sense of continuous self?
(emphasis mine)
You realize, those 2 options, "produces or receives", are as opposite from each other as can be. OR are you just trying to sneak it in?
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Old 23rd December 2016, 08:49 AM   #2773
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Originally Posted by The Sparrow View Post
(emphasis mine)
You realize, those 2 options, "produces or receives", are as opposite from each other as can be. OR are you just trying to sneak it in?
He's doing the famous Jabbastic Trinity.
  1. Duhhh!!! I didn't understand your well laid, logical and sound argument
  2. But this concept I need blurred
  3. You DO agree it is a way you may accept and/or kaplan! the holly spirit, don't you?
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Old 23rd December 2016, 09:34 AM   #2774
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,

- I didn't understand what you meant...

[...]
Is there a name for a fallacy where one pleads ignorance, but still claims argumental integrity
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Old 23rd December 2016, 09:35 AM   #2775
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,

- I didn't understand what you meant...

- Anyway, one step at a time.
- Do you accept that even if your self is only an illusion or process, it is still real? Your brain/body is alive, and it produces, or receives, a sense of continuous self?
Under H, the sense of self is an emergent property of the organism. It is real. That does not mean it's tangible or a countable entity. It's a property. Properties are real, but they aren't things. Stop trying to equivocate up a definition du jour that just begs the same question in a new way.
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Old 23rd December 2016, 09:37 AM   #2776
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Is there a name for a fallacy where one pleads ignorance, but still claims argumental integrity
It's not so much a fallacy as it is the rhetorical technique of stonewalling.
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Old 23rd December 2016, 10:05 AM   #2777
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,

- I didn't understand what you meant...

- Anyway, one step at a time.
- Do you accept that even if your self is only an illusion or process, it is still real? Your brain/body is alive, and it produces, or receives, a sense of continuous self?
Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
Under H, it produces it.
- But, duplication of your brain would not reproduce the same sense of self? You would no longer be living -- it would be somebody else. And, you would never exist again.
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Old 23rd December 2016, 10:15 AM   #2778
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- But, duplication of your brain would not reproduce the same sense of self? You would no longer be living -- it would be somebody else. And, you would never exist again.
Yes. Just like my brain would never exist again. Because two identical things are two things, not one.
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Old 23rd December 2016, 10:21 AM   #2779
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- But, duplication of your brain would not reproduce the same sense of self? You would no longer be living -- it would be somebody else. And, you would never exist again.
What could that mean, when part of our sense of self is being embodied in the present moment uniquely?
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Old 23rd December 2016, 10:24 AM   #2780
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- But, duplication of your brain would not reproduce the same sense of self? You would no longer be living -- it would be somebody else. And, you would never exist again.
The sense of self is not a distinct, countable thing under H. You need to get out of that mindset. No matter how much you tap dance, the self under H is not a soul.
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Old 23rd December 2016, 10:25 AM   #2781
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
The sense of self is not a distinct, countable thing under H.
Even if we treat it like one it doesn't help his case.
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Old 23rd December 2016, 10:28 AM   #2782
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Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
Even if we treat it like one it doesn't help his case.
He thinks it does because he's on a quest for the Big Denominator. The thing he taps out as the "self" for the purposes of falsifying H must be countable so that it can number as infinity.
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Old 23rd December 2016, 11:53 AM   #2783
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Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
Yes. Just like my brain would never exist again. Because two identical things are two things, not one.
Dave,
- So, scientifically speaking, you never had to exist at all -- and Bayesian thinking, the likelihood of your current existence is virtually zero.
,
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Old 23rd December 2016, 11:58 AM   #2784
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- So, scientifically speaking, you never had to exist at all -- and Bayesian thinking, the likelihood of your current existence is virtually zero.
,
Erase scientifically and Bayesian from that phrase, they have nothing to do with the rest. They just are embellishments you placed to make it look cool and thread-related.

That done, your phrase boils down to one of many corollary of John Paulos' law of coincidences.
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Old 23rd December 2016, 12:00 PM   #2785
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- So, scientifically speaking, you never had to exist at all
Depends on how deterministic you think the universe is, but sure.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
-- and Bayesian thinking, the likelihood of your current existence is virtually zero.
,
No. I don't see how that follows.

The banana I'm about to have for a snack didn't have to exist, but the likelihood of its current existence is not virtually zero. My existence is no different.
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Old 23rd December 2016, 12:18 PM   #2786
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Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
Depends on how deterministic you think the universe is, but sure.



No. I don't see how that follows.

The banana I'm about to have for a snack didn't have to exist, but the likelihood of its current existence is not virtually zero. My existence is no different.
And the exact could be said for every banana that has existed and will exist.
OR any other fruit for that matter. I also don't get how he gets from one to the other. Once again, it is texas sharpshooter. Jabba's existence is not a target. It was not a target before he existed.

Jabba you are just repeating the same thing over and over again using slightly different words, and you aren't addressing or even reading the problems with it. Do you think after the 1000th time this strategy will work?
This particular iteration of the thread has over 2700 posts, and not a thing has changed or moved since the start of it.

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Old 23rd December 2016, 12:29 PM   #2787
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Jabba the mistakes you are making have been explained to you patiently, in detail. and in the simplest possible terms, many many times. Why are you simply repeating them as if it was the first time you'd ever made them? Go back and read the responses you got any of the previous times you posted the same faulty arguments, and this time try to understand them.
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Old 23rd December 2016, 12:31 PM   #2788
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
So, scientifically speaking, you never had to exist at all
That's correct. There is no lottery to win, no overarching framework you can speculate exists if only so you can contrive countability. If you exist, the properties associated with existence necessarily arise. If you do not exist, the properties of existence have nothing in which to arise. Properties are not things.

Quote:
...and Bayesian thinking, the likelihood of your current existence is virtually zero.
No, there's nothing validly Bayesian or logical about that. You're being shown the same reductio ad absurdum rebuttal you always get when you attempt this specious line of reasoning. One of these years you should consider it.
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Old 23rd December 2016, 12:36 PM   #2789
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- So, scientifically speaking, you never had to exist at all -- and Bayesian thinking, the likelihood of your current existence is virtually zero.
,


Let me know if you ever decide to grasp the fact that there is no such thing as "virtually zero."
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Old 23rd December 2016, 01:32 PM   #2790
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Originally Posted by The Sparrow View Post
And the exact could be said for every banana that has existed and will exist.
OR any other fruit for that matter. I also don't get how he gets from one to the other. Once again, it is texas sharpshooter. Jabba's existence is not a target. It was not a target before he existed.
It would be the Texas sharpshooter fallacy if Jabba were using anything like the actual odds of a specific individual existing under the scientific understanding of biology. But he doesn't even get that far: he uses some number where the numerator is, for some reason, the number of people alive now and the denominator is the number of possible human beings in the entire lifespan of the universe. The latter is based on his claim that each person's sense of self comes from nowhere, rather than being the result of biological processes.
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Old 23rd December 2016, 02:15 PM   #2791
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Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
It would be the Texas sharpshooter fallacy if Jabba were using anything like the actual odds of a specific individual existing under the scientific understanding of biology. But he doesn't even get that far: he uses some number where the numerator is, for some reason, the number of people alive now and the denominator is the number of possible human beings in the entire lifespan of the universe.

Not quite: Jabba's denominator is the number of "potential selves", which he claims are infinite. He has to stick infinity in there to make his strawman "H" impossible.

But this doesn't work, even if we were to accept his infinite number of "potential selves". All we have here is an entity that claims it is Jabba. But whichever of these "potential selves" happened to inhabit Jabba's body would think it was Jabba. Once Jabba's body exists the probability of the result we see is 1.

On the other hand, Jabba's argument relies on the self inhabiting his body being the One True Jabba. The self inhabiting Jabba's body will no doubt say that it is the OTJ, but if there are, as Jabba claims, an infinite number of "potential selves" that it could be, only one of which is the OTJ, then the likelihood that it is correct when it says this is one over infinity.

This means that it would appear that the "self" occupying Jabba's body is not the OTJ. Jabba can therefore avoid committing the Texas sharpshooter fallacy, but only at the expense of conceding that the event he is relying on to falsify his H hasn't happened.

Even if the rest of his "proof" was valid, it would still require the coming of the One True Jabba.
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Old 23rd December 2016, 07:26 PM   #2792
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
I didn't understand what you meant...
Well that's because you don't listen.

Quote:
Anyway, one step at a time.
You mean no steps at any time, ever. Just jog in place Jabba.

Quote:
Do you accept that even if your self is only an illusion or process, it is still real?
Ah so now you're going to try to paint consciousness as a biological process as being "an illusion."

You say "only a process" as if that means anything. Fire is a process, a chemical reaction. It's real. Your hairsplit means nothing.

Quote:
Your brain/body is alive, and it produces, or receives, a sense of continuous self?
It receives nothing. Your radio analogy is infantile.

This has all been explained to you before. Multiples times. Again and again.
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Old 24th December 2016, 02:31 AM   #2793
MRC_Hans
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Is there a name for a fallacy where one pleads ignorance, but still claims argumental integrity
It's called being willfully obtuse.

Hans
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Old 24th December 2016, 02:36 AM   #2794
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans
Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Is there a name for a fallacy where one pleads ignorance, but still claims argumental integrity
It's called being willfully obtuse.

Hans
I'd rather say malafides, chemically pure malafides.
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Old 24th December 2016, 05:20 AM   #2795
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Is there a name for a fallacy where one pleads ignorance, but still claims argumental integrity

Truly Effective Debate.
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Old 24th December 2016, 05:28 AM   #2796
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With the tinsy detail there are no TED talks associated to it but TED Snow Jobs«
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Old 24th December 2016, 09:48 AM   #2797
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Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
Depends on how deterministic you think the universe is, but sure.



No. I don't see how that follows.

The banana I'm about to have for a snack didn't have to exist, but the likelihood of its current existence is not virtually zero. My existence is no different.
Dave,
- I would say that your sense of self is different -- it is not the result of your chemistry. There is nothing about the banana that isn't reproducible, but your sense of self is not at all reproducible.
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Old 24th December 2016, 10:05 AM   #2798
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- I would say that your sense of self is different -- it is not the result of your chemistry. There is nothing about the banana that isn't reproducible, but your sense of self is not at all reproducible.
Dave:
Be your sense of self different!!
Be it not the result of your chemistry!!
Be the banana reproducible!!
Be your sense of self not reproducible!!
Be, I, Jabba the Thunder-lord, right!! (biography on the web)

It doesn't work.

When will you learn that you can't hide the sun behind your thumb?
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Old 24th December 2016, 10:10 AM   #2799
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- I would say that your sense of self is different -- it is not the result of your chemistry.

Why would you say that?
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Old 24th December 2016, 10:13 AM   #2800
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- I would say that your sense of self is different -- it is not the result of your chemistry. There is nothing about the banana that isn't reproducible, but your sense of self is not at all reproducible.
Of course you would say that. All you need to do now is prove it.
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