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Old 24th December 2016, 10:22 AM   #2801
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Why would you say that?
Fletcher: Your honor I object!
Judge: Why?
Fletcher: Because it's devastating to my case!

I think that about sums it up.
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Old 24th December 2016, 10:22 AM   #2802
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Originally Posted by The Sparrow
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- I would say that your sense of self is different -- it is not the result of your chemistry. There is nothing about the banana that isn't reproducible, but your sense of self is not at all reproducible.
Of course you would say that. All you need to do now is prove it.
It is different because of the soul ... and as it is different ... it must exist that soul!

It's circular Jabbastic thinking. Let's see how he now waltzes us into the V reincarnation of this thread, in what he believes to be this:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 24th December 2016, 10:28 AM   #2803
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- I would say that your sense of self is different -- it is not the result of your chemistry. There is nothing about the banana that isn't reproducible, but your sense of self is not at all reproducible.
Then you're not talking about H. Under H my self is the result of my chemistry, and is in principle reproducible just as much as the banana is, as we just discussed a few posts back. To reproduce is to make a copy. Making a copy of the banana would result in a second banana identical to, but separate from, the first. Making a copy of my body would result in a second body, with a sense of self, identical to but separate from the first.

Under H, everything about the sense of self depends on the physical body. That's why H results in each of us having one finite life, no more and no less.
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Old 24th December 2016, 10:29 AM   #2804
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Originally Posted by The Sparrow View Post
And the exact could be said for every banana that has existed and will exist.
OR any other fruit for that matter. I also don't get how he gets from one to the other. Once again, it is texas sharpshooter. Jabba's existence is not a target. It was not a target before he existed.

Jabba you are just repeating the same thing over and over again using slightly different words, and you aren't addressing or even reading the problems with it. Do you think after the 1000th time this strategy will work?
This particular iteration of the thread has over 2700 posts, and not a thing has changed or moved since the start of it.
Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
It would be the Texas sharpshooter fallacy if Jabba were using anything like the actual odds of a specific individual existing under the scientific understanding of biology. But he doesn't even get that far: he uses some number where the numerator is, for some reason, the number of people alive now and the denominator is the number of possible human beings in the entire lifespan of the universe. The latter is based on his claim that each person's sense of self comes from nowhere, rather than being the result of biological processes.
Dave and Sparrow,
- Again, there is an aspect of a person (the sense of self) that is not reproducible. I assume that there is no such aspect in a banana.
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Old 24th December 2016, 10:32 AM   #2805
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- I would say that your sense of self is different -- it is not the result of your chemistry. There is nothing about the banana that isn't reproducible, but your sense of self is not at all reproducible.
That's because it's a process, not a thing. The same yellow of a banana couldn't be reproduced either.
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Old 24th December 2016, 10:32 AM   #2806
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave and Sparrow,
- Again, there is an aspect of a person (the sense of self) that is not reproducible. I assume that there is no such aspect in a banana.
Again you can't just keep stating this over and over as if it were true.
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Old 24th December 2016, 10:35 AM   #2807
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
I would say that your sense of self is different -- it is not the result of your chemistry.
First, "of your chemistry" is a recurring straw man in your argument. The sense of self is an emergent property of a functioning brain an nervous system. There are many more components and effects there than mere "chemistry."

Second, you haven't shown how a sense of self is different than any other property. You're trying to show that a soul exists so that you can say life isn't vested in the organism. You're trying to show that there exists something in the organism, as formulated H in science, that can't be produced by the organism. Simply declaring that it must exist is as circular as reasoning can get.

Quote:
There is nothing about the banana that isn't reproducible, but your sense of self is not at all reproducible.
Where to begin? You talk about "your" sense of self. There is only "the" sense of self, the emergent property of a functioning brain. You continue to use language that incorrectly describes the conditions under H, and which reinforces your error that the sense of self under H is a countable "thing." You need to divest yourself of that misconception.

No two bananas are exactly alike. Yet two bananas are each expressions of the emergent property of bananahood. There is no element of that property that does not derive from the processes of growing a banana. Similarly there is no element of the self that does not derive from the process of growing a human being.

Finally, you misunderstood what the banana example does to your argument. You want to say there is an infinite number of Potential Selves, so that you can get your Big Denominator, wave the Bayesian wand, and conjure yourself up a "virtually zero" likelihood of you existing without a soul. Accordingly, there must be an infinite number of Potential Bananas, therefore no single banana has a non-zero likelihood of existing. In fact your fallacy holds for all X. There is an infinite number of Potential X, therefore no X can possibly exist.

I'm sure you'll try again to point out that Xes and bananas are different from selves. That's the problem. Your argument holds only for selves because you beg the question of what a self is. You simply define it to be fundamentally identical to the soul you're trying to prove. The sense of self under H is no different from bananahood or X-hood or any other emergent property. It doesn't come in distinct quantities. There is no such thing as a "potential" self that you can count. Your argument is simply numerically wrong.
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Old 24th December 2016, 11:22 AM   #2808
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Truly Effective Debate.
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Old 24th December 2016, 11:26 AM   #2809
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- I would say that your sense of self is different -- it is not the result of your chemistry. There is nothing about the banana that isn't reproducible, but your sense of self is not at all reproducible.
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave and Sparrow,
- Again, there is an aspect of a person (the sense of self) that is not reproducible. I assume that there is no such aspect in a banana.
Jabba the mistakes you are making have been explained to you patiently, in detail. and in the simplest possible terms, many many times. Why are you simply repeating them as if it was the first time you'd ever made them? Go back and read the responses you got any of the previous times you posted the same faulty arguments, and this time try to understand them.
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Old 24th December 2016, 11:28 AM   #2810
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- I would say that your sense of self is different -- it is not the result of your chemistry. There is nothing about the banana that isn't reproducible, but your sense of self is not at all reproducible.
You would (and frequently do) say any manner of things, but you don't provide any evidence and scarcely any logic.
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Old 24th December 2016, 11:45 AM   #2811
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave and Sparrow,
- Again, there is an aspect of a person (the sense of self) that is not reproducible. I assume that there is no such aspect in a banana.

You're just repeating your claim, and providing nothing whatsoever to support it.

Fail.
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Old 24th December 2016, 12:55 PM   #2812
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave and Sparrow,
- Again, there is an aspect of a person (the sense of self) that is not reproducible. I assume that there is no such aspect in a banana.
You're just saying the same thing with more emotional insistence.
I asked for proof, or even evidence.
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Old 24th December 2016, 01:23 PM   #2813
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave and Sparrow,
- Again, there is an aspect of a person (the sense of self) that is not reproducible. I assume that there is no such aspect in a banana.

Wrong and wrong. Why do you claim a sense of self is not reproducible? It is reproduced every time you lose and regain consciousness.
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Old 24th December 2016, 01:28 PM   #2814
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave and Sparrow,
- Again, there is an aspect of a person (the sense of self) that is not reproducible. I assume that there is no such aspect in a banana.
Originally Posted by The Sparrow View Post
You're just saying the same thing with more emotional insistence.
I asked for proof, or even evidence.
Sparrow,
- Are you asking for evidence that there is an aspect of a person that cannot be reproduced -- or, are you asking for evidence that there is no such aspect in a banana?
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Old 24th December 2016, 01:38 PM   #2815
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Sparrow,
- Are you asking for evidence that there is an aspect of a person that cannot be reproduced -- or, are you asking for evidence that there is no such aspect in a banana?
As if you didn't realize any piece of evidence from you would be a complete novelty here.

«Are you asking the first 50% of a piece of evidence or are you asking the last 50% of it? Or is it the 50% in the middle?»

«if you want all the words in that piece of evidence starting with an a, press 9 ... you pressed "human have souls and souls are immortal" ... thank you, have a nice day! .... [TONE]»
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Old 24th December 2016, 01:53 PM   #2816
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Sparrow,
- Are you asking for evidence that there is an aspect of a person that cannot be reproduced -- or, are you asking for evidence that there is no such aspect in a banana?
Either. Or. Both. Doesn't matter because there's zero chance you'll provide it.

I could ask you for next week's lottery numbers for all the difference it's gonna make.
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Old 24th December 2016, 01:53 PM   #2817
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
Wrong and wrong. Why do you claim a sense of self is not reproducible? It is reproduced every time you lose and regain consciousness.
No idea. Go under general anaesthetic and the light bulb is simply switched off. Weird experience but there you are. Odd as the sensation (of lack thereof) if consciousness can clearly be eliminated by drugs interacting with a brain, clearly, a brain has something to do with it.

Jabba claims that something is external. Were that true, we would have evidence of it. Not I, nor anyone I know has had any such experience.

This is, of course, why Jabba gloms onto the NDE/OOBE experiences. It is all he has.

There are two points to make here.

Anyone in a position to require such a thing is having serious drug regimes. One might as well ask a heroin addict to interpret the bible, or Harry Potter, or whatever.

Second, I have been that soldier more than once. So have my long deceased parents. It is very strange to observe, utterly confusing at the start, hallucinogenetic even.

When one comes out of it, one can acknowledge that one was spaced out on drugs, which is reasonable. Or one could claim that they had a divine revelation, which is not.

It might be that Jabba's claim is true, I have no idea. Maybe he really is 70+ and never underwent any surgery ever. Maybe he has never experienced having his consciousness being switched off at will.

It matters not. The important question is that if I were to anaesthetise anyone , that's it. It is a purely physical function.
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Old 24th December 2016, 02:20 PM   #2818
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
Wrong and wrong. Why do you claim a sense of self is not reproducible? It is reproduced every time you lose and regain consciousness.
Hokulele,
- My claim is that a human has an aspect that cannot be reproduced chemically (the particular sense of self)-- but that a banana doesn't. And, by having such an aspect, the likelihood of the particular human existing at any particular time is virtually zero -- but, not so the banana. The human has an identity, a self -- the banana does not.
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Last edited by Jabba; 24th December 2016 at 02:22 PM.
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Old 24th December 2016, 02:24 PM   #2819
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Hokulele,
- My claim is that a human has an aspect that cannot be reproduced chemically (the sense of self)-- but that a banana doesn't. And, by having such an aspect, the likelihood of the particular human existing at any particular time is virtually zero -- but, not so the banana. The human has an identity, a self -- the banana does not.
Jesus Christ it's like having a discussion with that guy from Memento

How is that after 5 years you are still literally at the exact starting point?

WE ALL KNOW WHAT YOUR CLAIM IS JABBA!

Your claim is wrong. You have failed to support it. Stop just making it over and over.
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Old 24th December 2016, 02:29 PM   #2820
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Sparrow,
- Are you asking for evidence that there is an aspect of a person that cannot be reproduced -- or, are you asking for evidence that there is no such aspect in a banana?
Actual evidence of any part of your claim would be a pleasant surprise. You are claiming there exists a unique entity that transcends the physical organism and can thus be termed immortal. You have provided no evidence that any such thing exists. The closest you've come is to attribute various extraordinary anecdotes to it. Under H, a human being has no more mystique than a banana, in terms of how they come into existence and how that existence gives rise to certain emergent properties in each case. Necessarily under H, if you reproduce that existence you reproduce the properties, emergent or otherwise. Your only response is merely a bare assertion to the contrary. You simply declare a human being has some irreproducible "thing," and that there are an infinite number of "potential" such things. This is your QED, so you don't get to simply declare it to be so and call it done. That's what you need to prove, not a stepping-stone on the way to proving it.
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Old 24th December 2016, 02:33 PM   #2821
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Hokulele,
- My claim is that a human has an aspect that cannot be reproduced chemically (the particular sense of self)-- but that a banana doesn't. And, by having such an aspect, the likelihood of the particular human existing at any particular time is virtually zero -- but, not so the banana. The human has an identity, a self -- the banana does not.
Jabba the mistakes you are making have been explained to you patiently, in detail. and in the simplest possible terms, many many times. Why are you simply repeating them as if it was the first time you'd ever made them? Go back and read the responses you got any of the previous times you posted the same faulty arguments, and this time try to understand them
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Old 24th December 2016, 02:37 PM   #2822
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
My claim is that a human has an aspect that cannot be reproduced chemically (the particular sense of self)-- but that a banana doesn't.
Yes, you claim there is a unique immortal soul. Only you don't get to assume that for the purposes of falsifying the scientific hypothesis H, which is what you're trying to do in the false hope that it will indirectly prove something besides H. Under H, the self is an emergent property of the organism and has no meaning outside the existence of the organism.

Quote:
The human has an identity, a self -- the banana does not.
Not under H. In your fantasy world you can imbue people or bananas with whatever ineffable essences you want. However, if you're trying to falsify H, you don't get to just make stuff up like that. If you want to falsify H you have to falsify what H really is, not what you rewrite it to be. You're essentially saying that H doesn't work because it can't produce the kind of soul you think exists. But its existence is what you're trying to prove. So your argument boils down to claiming to have falsified H because it isn't what you believe.
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Old 24th December 2016, 02:38 PM   #2823
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Jesus Christ it's like having a discussion with that guy from Memento

How is that after 5 years you are still literally at the exact starting point?

WE ALL KNOW WHAT YOUR CLAIM IS JABBA!

Your claim is wrong. You have failed to support it. Stop just making it over and over.
Jabba has only succeeded at stagnation. Why is he going to start now providing evidence he cannot even spot as evidence? His whole game is to keep his share of posts and act nice, as if he's some sort of loving Gepetto, and tell elsewhere he's being mistreated here, so nice he's always been and all.

He just has to do that for months or a few years. Then, he'll be dead.
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Old 24th December 2016, 02:45 PM   #2824
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
How is that after 5 years you are still literally at the exact starting point?
Because he's stuck in a familiar loop. As I write above, he seems to think falsifying H is largely a matter of simply showing that it's not what he believes. Yes, it's a bit more complicated than that, but what it means is that he doesn't consider the possibility he might be wrong. He's wedded so emotionally to the belief that he has a soul that he argues as if the falsify of H (the scientific conclusion) is a foregone conclusion and he just has to figure out how.

Congruently, he doesn't argue as if his claim has been refuted. He argues as if his claim simply hasn't been understood. That is, he is so sure of his conclusion that he believes it to be self-evidently true, and that the only way anyone could possibly concoct a scientific or mathematically sound refutation of it is that if the theory itself were not properly expounded or understood. He sometimes attributes this to a supposedly defective way his critics think; they simply aren't as brilliant as he is in particular ways so they miss his point. It simply doesn't enter into his argument the possibility that he's wrong.

As for longevity, that also derives from the firm, unshakable belief that he cannot possibly be wrong. If the threads containing his claims continue to count up new posts, he considers the subject alive and kicking even if it's all repetition. He attributes the need for repetition to his critics' unwillingness or inability to see the indisputable logic of his argument. And sometimes this has descended into insinuations that his critics are deliberately "failing" to understand. In any case, it's all solved by repeating his claims over and over again until someone "gets it."

It's all a very tight ball of circular reasoning. He simply argues as if any refutation or rejection of his claim must necessarily be false, even if he can't immediately see how.
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Old 24th December 2016, 02:47 PM   #2825
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Hokulele,
- My claim is that a human has an aspect that cannot be reproduced chemically (the particular sense of self)-- but that a banana doesn't. And, by having such an aspect, the likelihood of the particular human existing at any particular time is virtually zero -- but, not so the banana. The human has an identity, a self -- the banana does not.

You are still wrong, and your fixation with bananas is simply a red herring. Please provide evidence that this sense of self cannot be reproduced. As I stated, it is constantly being reproduced, and there is a world of documentation on how altering the body's chemistry can also alter the sense of self.

If you would love an easy to read and highly entertaining introduction to neuroscience, and how a sense of self is generated, I recommend anything by V.S. Ramachandran, particularly his first popular science book, Phantoms in the Brain: Probing the Mysteries of the Human Mind.

https://www.amazon.com/Phantoms-Brai.../dp/0688172172
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Old 24th December 2016, 03:19 PM   #2826
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Congruently, he doesn't argue as if his claim has been refuted. He argues as if his claim simply hasn't been understood. That is, he is so sure of his conclusion that he believes it to be self-evidently true, and that the only way anyone could possibly concoct a scientific or mathematically sound refutation of it is that if the theory itself were not properly expounded or understood.
And this is 100% correct.

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Jabba. Please answer this question. Do not ignore it.

Do you understand on any level that the problem is NOT that we simply don't understand you claim and that you simply need to restate it again and again until we do?

We all understand exactly what you are claiming. We are telling you that it is wrong.

Simply stating your opinion again, either verbatim or in yet another reword, will NOT advance this discussion, will not get us to agree with you, and is most certainly NOT "effective debate" (or indeed even ineffective debate or debate of any kind.)

Do you understand what I just said?
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Last edited by JoeBentley; 24th December 2016 at 03:20 PM.
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Old 24th December 2016, 08:03 PM   #2827
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Jabba,

Can you replicate a human exactly? Of course not. Such technology does not exist at present.

Given that it does not, upon what basis are you claiming how it would work and how do you know that?

You are simply making claims which you can neither demonstrate or even know. And which disagree with the bible.

In itself, that is odd, given how much effort you expended in the shroud thread. Are you a biblical believer, or are you not? Because you seem to oscillate between christian and pagan beliefs as is convenient to your argument du jour. So much so that said beliefs are self contradictory.

For example, if the shroud is genuine and we all have souls, the shroud should be passe. You are attempting to argue that we all have souls. Shrouds would, in that case, would be common. Except they are not.

And why have you kept dodging the population problem? I outlined it in numbers. You kicked to touch by saying that you couldn't explain it and ignored it ever since. Because reasons.
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Old 24th December 2016, 11:04 PM   #2828
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Hokulele,
- My claim is that a human has an aspect that cannot be reproduced chemically (the particular sense of self)-- but that a banana doesn't. And, by having such an aspect, the likelihood of the particular human existing at any particular time is virtually zero -- but, not so the banana. The human has an identity, a self -- the banana does not.


And there it is all gift-wrapped for Christmas. Humans are different from Bananas because humans have souls. This proves that humans have souls.

Jabba, seriously, bananas have plenty of ongoing processes - ripening, tasking good with ice cream, turning brown on the counter ... these processes occur whenever you have a functioning banana. There is no difference except that you want there to be a difference.
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Old 25th December 2016, 01:25 AM   #2829
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
And there it is all gift-wrapped for Christmas. Humans are different from Bananas because humans have souls. This proves that humans have souls.
It's a special kind of pleading.
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Old 25th December 2016, 01:55 AM   #2830
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Truly Effective Debate.
Soon to be 45 years of futility!
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Old 25th December 2016, 03:13 AM   #2831
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Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
It's a special kind of pleading.
It's fruitile.
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Old 25th December 2016, 03:54 AM   #2832
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- My claim is that a human has an aspect that cannot be reproduced chemically (the particular sense of self)-- but that a banana doesn't. And, by having such an aspect, the likelihood of the particular human existing at any particular time is virtually zero --

Jabba,
- If "selves", as you define them, exist, what is the likelihood that a "self" - any "self" - occupying your body would think that it is you?



ETA: I am not accepting that "selves", as you define them, exist or are a legitimate part of H.
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Old 25th December 2016, 04:16 AM   #2833
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
It's fruitile.
Fruitile ... and holesome
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Old 25th December 2016, 04:30 AM   #2834
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
Fruitile ... and holesome
My New Year's resolution is to work "prehensile" into as many conversations as possible. I find the universe cooperates most when you demand the least.
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Old 25th December 2016, 04:41 AM   #2835
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
My New Year's resolution is to work "prehensile" into as many conversations as possible. I find the universe cooperates most when you demand the least.
I prehen what you're saying...
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Old 25th December 2016, 04:52 AM   #2836
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
I prehen what you're saying...
"The rope was pretensile."

I admire your linguistic jujitsu, especially as an ESL practitioner. The ability to construct neologisms with punny flavors is a hallmark of fluency and a creative mind.

Would you like to marry my daughter?
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Old 25th December 2016, 05:20 AM   #2837
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
"The rope was pretensile."

I admire your linguistic jujitsu, especially as an ESL practitioner. The ability to construct neologisms with punny flavors is a hallmark of fluency and a creative mind.

Would you like to marry my daughter?
Is she a redhead?
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Old 25th December 2016, 05:21 AM   #2838
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Sparrow,
- Are you asking for evidence that there is an aspect of a person that cannot be reproduced -- or, are you asking for evidence that there is no such aspect in a banana?
The former.
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Old 25th December 2016, 05:34 AM   #2839
marplots
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
Is she a redhead?
Brunette
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Old 25th December 2016, 05:38 AM   #2840
aleCcowaN
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
"The rope was pretensile."

I admire your linguistic jujitsu, especially as an ESL practitioner. The ability to construct neologisms with punny flavors is a hallmark of fluency and a creative mind.

Would you like to marry my daughter?
Thank you very much, but I don't believe in marriage (and there's someone who would take offence if I accepted that).

Take into account I have a treasure of English just for speaking Spanish:

prensil (adapted for seizing, grasping, or taking hold of something)
aprehender (catch, arrest / seize / get the gist of a concept)
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