ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Closed Thread
Old 28th December 2016, 09:23 AM   #2881
aleCcowaN
imperfecto del subjuntivo
 
aleCcowaN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 7,490
Originally Posted by CriticalThanking View Post
Jabba, I'll play. You claim the banana and the soul are different. Please enumerate the testable qualities of a soul and I will compare them to those of a banana.
Yes, but as, unlike the banana, the soul lacks any property that can't be fathomed in a material world, Jabba is going to assume its representation. That was the whole thing from the very beginning
__________________
Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated, or covfefe your soul!
These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out.
I got tired of the actual schizophrenics that are taking hold part of the forum and decided to do something about it.
aleCcowaN is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 28th December 2016, 10:03 AM   #2882
Jabba
Illuminator
 
Jabba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,742
Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
The likelihood is not something over infinity for E|H.
Dave,
- If there is no pool of potential selves, there is no limit to the number of of potential selves -- and, I think you've already agreed that there is no pool of potential selves.
__________________
"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski
"Most good ideas don't work." Jabba
"Et tamen salsus est ratio plerumque recta ad unum." Jabba's Razor
Jabba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 28th December 2016, 10:13 AM   #2883
jond
Master Poster
 
jond's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,850
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- If there is no pool of potential selves, there is no limit to the number of of potential selves -- and, I think you've already agreed that there is no pool of potential selves.
There is no such thing as a potential self. The self is a process, not a thing. Is there potential yellow?
jond is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 28th December 2016, 10:22 AM   #2884
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 28,796
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- If there is no pool of potential selves, there is no limit to the number of of potential selves -- and, I think you've already agreed that there is no pool of potential selves.

Jabba,
- In the hypothesis you need to disprove there are no "potential selves": your consciousness is whatever consciousness your brain produces. Once your body exists and functions the likelihood of it producing your consciousness is 1.
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 28th December 2016, 10:22 AM   #2885
godless dave
Great Dalmuti
 
godless dave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,944
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- If there is no pool of potential selves, there is no limit to the number of of potential selves -- and, I think you've already agreed that there is no pool of potential selves.
There is no limit to the number of potential bananas or potential Volkswagens.

We've been over this before.

At the time you were born, the number of potential selves that could have been born was limited by the number of humans of reproductive age and all the different ways they could combine their genetic material to produce offspring. That's a large number of possibilities, but it's not infinite.

Right now you already exist, so the number of potential selves is irrelevant to the likelihood of your current existence.
__________________
"If it's real, then it gets more interesting the closer you examine it. If it's not real, just the opposite is true." - aggle-rithm

Last edited by godless dave; 28th December 2016 at 10:25 AM.
godless dave is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 28th December 2016, 10:24 AM   #2886
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 28,796
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- If there is no pool of potential selves, there is no limit to the number of of potential selves -- and, I think you've already agreed that there is no pool of potential selves.

Jabba,
- If there were an infinite number of "potential selves", what is the likelihood that the one that happened to occupy your body would think it was you?
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 28th December 2016, 10:32 AM   #2887
aleCcowaN
imperfecto del subjuntivo
 
aleCcowaN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 7,490
And Jabba, the rhetorical bobo doll, achieves again dodging he being collectively trapped by the inconsistencies of his pseudo-argument and he's again repetitively discussing partial aspects of his poor reasoning with different interlocutors.

Entropy has won again.
__________________
Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated, or covfefe your soul!
These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out.
I got tired of the actual schizophrenics that are taking hold part of the forum and decided to do something about it.
aleCcowaN is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 28th December 2016, 10:32 AM   #2888
John Jones
Penultimate Amazing
 
John Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,838
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- If there is no pool of potential selves, there is no limit to the number of of potential selves -- and, I think you've already agreed that there is no pool of potential selves.
This has been getting monotonous for a long time.
__________________
Credibility is not a boomerang. If you throw it away, it's not coming back.
John Jones is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 28th December 2016, 10:47 AM   #2889
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 9,185
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- If there is no pool of potential selves, there is no limit to the number of of potential selves -- and, I think you've already agreed that there is no pool of potential selves.
Jabba the mistakes you are making have been explained to you patiently, in detail. and in the simplest possible terms, many many times. Why are you simply repeating them as if it was the first time you'd ever made them? Go back and read the responses you got any of the previous times you posted the same faulty arguments, and this time try to understand them.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 28th December 2016, 10:48 AM   #2890
godless dave
Great Dalmuti
 
godless dave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,944
Maybe I can save time by anticipating Jabba's response.

Jabba will probably start talking about how P(E|H) is some number over infinity because there are an infinite number of potential selves. He will then base this on there being some aspect of the self that isn't determined by the physical body. We'll have the 2>1 discussion again. Jabba will abandon (but not retract) his claim that H includes some aspect of the self that isn't determined by the physical body. Instead he will talk about ways an immaterial self might exist whose every aspect isn't dependent on a physical body, and that if reincarnation is real, it would require the existence of just such an immaterial self. Then someone will ask him for evidence or reasoning that suggests reincarnation is real, and he'll come back to his Bayesian formula which is based on the claim that P(E|H) is some number over infinity because there are an infinite number of potential selves. He will then pretend to be surprised that we object to the claim that P(E|H) is some number over infinity. Which is where we are now.
__________________
"If it's real, then it gets more interesting the closer you examine it. If it's not real, just the opposite is true." - aggle-rithm
godless dave is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 28th December 2016, 11:27 AM   #2891
jt512
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,578
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
jt,
- What if the prior probabilities are 99% for H, 1% for ~H and the likelihoods are something over infinity for E|H and about 60% for E|~H?

What if, instead, you write is this:

Originally Posted by jabba
My basic question is whether or not we can say that an hypothesis is probably wrong, if the likelihood of an event -- given the hypothesis -- is virtually zero, and the event occurs. If the likelihood is something over infinity, would seem like we could.
jt512 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 28th December 2016, 11:46 AM   #2892
jond
Master Poster
 
jond's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,850
Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
Maybe I can save time by anticipating Jabba's response.

Jabba will probably start talking about how P(E|H) is some number over infinity because there are an infinite number of potential selves. He will then base this on there being some aspect of the self that isn't determined by the physical body. We'll have the 2>1 discussion again. Jabba will abandon (but not retract) his claim that H includes some aspect of the self that isn't determined by the physical body. Instead he will talk about ways an immaterial self might exist whose every aspect isn't dependent on a physical body, and that if reincarnation is real, it would require the existence of just such an immaterial self. Then someone will ask him for evidence or reasoning that suggests reincarnation is real, and he'll come back to his Bayesian formula which is based on the claim that P(E|H) is some number over infinity because there are an infinite number of potential selves. He will then pretend to be surprised that we object to the claim that P(E|H) is some number over infinity. Which is where we are now.
Seems like you've been through this loop before. Seems like you've been through this loop before. Seems like you've been through this loop before...
jond is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 28th December 2016, 12:24 PM   #2893
JoeBentley
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeBentley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 7,264
Jabba what is the probability of a potential Jabba-self that's actually going to listen to anything anyone's saying?
__________________
Hemingway once wrote that "The world is a fine place and worth fighting for." I agree with the second part.
JoeBentley is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 28th December 2016, 01:06 PM   #2894
MRC_Hans
Penultimate Amazing
 
MRC_Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 20,010
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
jt,
- What if the prior probabilities are 99% for H, 1% for ~H and the likelihoods are something over infinity for E|H and about 60% for E|~H?
What if ... the moon is made of green cheese?

Hans
__________________
If you love life, you must accept the traces it leaves.
MRC_Hans is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 28th December 2016, 02:35 PM   #2895
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
 
Dancing David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 38,442
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- If there is no pool of potential selves, there is no limit to the number of of potential selves -- and, I think you've already agreed that there is no pool of potential selves.
Sophistry shall avail you not!

The body that is your 'self' changes every moment of every day... therefore however you can to slice the temporal events of the body you could say your 'self' changes for every chemical reaction that occurs in your body.

Certainly a huge number of changes for people to pretend a continuity of self over
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn
And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch
You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager
Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar
Dancing David is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 28th December 2016, 05:44 PM   #2896
Loss Leader
Would Be Ringing (if a bell)
Moderator
 
Loss Leader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 23,064
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
jt,
- What if the prior probabilities are 99% for H, 1% for ~H and the likelihoods are something over infinity for E|H and about 60% for E|~H?

And what if cat were spelled d..o..g?
__________________
I have the honor to be
Your Obdt. St

L. Leader
Loss Leader is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 28th December 2016, 06:05 PM   #2897
JoeBentley
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeBentley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 7,264
Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Sophistry shall avail you not!
This doesn't even rise to the level of sophistry. It's not even semantics. It's randomness with an agenda. It's achieved a level I've never encountered before in that it's not even interesting as a fictional story.

I mean I've watched and enjoyed fictional works about aliens and Bigfoot and ghosts and government conspiracies and big old stodgy science proven wrong, as skeptical and reason-focused as I am I can enjoy those things conceptually in the abstract when removed from someone trying to argue them in real life but I'm sorry I don't see me watching a movie about some guy failing to prove immortality throughout an entire 25 season TV show where every episode follows the same script and there's no plot development.
__________________
Hemingway once wrote that "The world is a fine place and worth fighting for." I agree with the second part.
JoeBentley is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 29th December 2016, 12:44 AM   #2898
MetalPig
Master Poster
 
MetalPig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: 22, Acacia Avenue
Posts: 2,782
Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
And what if cat were spelled d..o..g?
It would still have 4 legs.
__________________
Just drive.
MetalPig is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 29th December 2016, 06:15 AM   #2899
MRC_Hans
Penultimate Amazing
 
MRC_Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 20,010
Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Jabba,
- If there were an infinite number of "potential selves", what is the likelihood that the one that happened to occupy your body would think it was you?
This.

Since a self will be the product of a sequence of variants with a virtually infinite number of possibilities, one can, of one wishes to do so, say that there is an infinite number of potential selves.

Thus, the one that currently expresses Jabba is one of a huge, but not infinite number. However, the probability that this particular self will perceive itself as Jabba is very close to 1 (certain mental disturbances can cause exceptions, but we assume that Jabba does not suffer from such).

Therefore, Jabba's claim that his existence is improbable is wrong. Any rational entity contemplating its own existence will find itself within its particular self. Water puddle or Texas sharpshooter analogies.

Hans
__________________
If you love life, you must accept the traces it leaves.
MRC_Hans is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 29th December 2016, 06:29 AM   #2900
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 28,796
Remember also that Jabba (in an attempt to dig himself out of a different hole) has defined the disembodied "self" as having no characteristics, all the characteristics of the embodied "self" being supplied by the body. By his own argument, whatever "self" wound up in his body would be Jabba.

ETA: Not that "selves" exist in the way Jabba defines them.
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

Last edited by Mojo; 29th December 2016 at 06:37 AM.
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 29th December 2016, 08:32 AM   #2901
Loss Leader
Would Be Ringing (if a bell)
Moderator
 
Loss Leader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 23,064
Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Remember also that Jabba (in an attempt to dig himself out of a different hole) has defined the disembodied "self" as having no characteristics, all the characteristics of the embodied "self" being supplied by the body. By his own argument, whatever "self" wound up in his body would be Jabba.

ETA: Not that "selves" exist in the way Jabba defines them.

He also refuses to believe that the self changes. At least, he's never answered any of my questions about whether he is the same person he was thirty years ago - likes, dislikes, cares, memories, even food preferences.

He'll happily call the soul a "process" or "illusion" just so long as those are understood to mean "an unchanging thing."
__________________
I have the honor to be
Your Obdt. St

L. Leader
Loss Leader is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 29th December 2016, 09:10 AM   #2902
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 28,796
Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
He'll happily call the soul a "process" or "illusion" just so long as those are understood to mean "an unchanging thing."

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that’s all."
Alice was too much puzzled to say anything, so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. "They’ve a temper, some of them—particularly verbs, they’re the proudest—adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs—however, I can manage the whole lot! Impenetrability! That’s what I say!"

Source
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 29th December 2016, 09:12 AM   #2903
jond
Master Poster
 
jond's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,850
Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
He also refuses to believe that the self changes. At least, he's never answered any of my questions about whether he is the same person he was thirty years ago - likes, dislikes, cares, memories, even food preferences.

He'll happily call the soul a "process" or "illusion" just so long as those are understood to mean "an unchanging thing."
Indeed, just as he ignored my question about whether he thought his father's direction to never give up was part of his self.
jond is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 29th December 2016, 12:02 PM   #2904
Jabba
Illuminator
 
Jabba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,742
-
Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
The likelihood is not something over infinity for E|H.
Dave,
- If there is no pool of potential selves, there is no limit to the number of of potential selves -- and, I think you've already agreed that there is no pool of potential selves.
- Or, how about this? What would limit the number of potential selves? Why couldn't we just keep recycling?
__________________
"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski
"Most good ideas don't work." Jabba
"Et tamen salsus est ratio plerumque recta ad unum." Jabba's Razor
Jabba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 29th December 2016, 12:09 PM   #2905
godless dave
Great Dalmuti
 
godless dave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,944
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Dave,
- If there is no pool of potential selves, there is no limit to the number of of potential selves -- and, I think you've already agreed that there is no pool of potential selves.
- Or, how about this? What would limit the number of potential selves? Why couldn't we just keep recycling?
As I said just a few posts ago:

Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
There is no limit to the number of potential bananas or potential Volkswagens.

We've been over this before.

At the time you were born, the number of potential selves that could have been born was limited by the number of humans of reproductive age and all the different ways they could combine their genetic material to produce offspring. That's a large number of possibilities, but it's not infinite.

Right now you already exist, so the number of potential selves is irrelevant to the likelihood of your current existence.
__________________
"If it's real, then it gets more interesting the closer you examine it. If it's not real, just the opposite is true." - aggle-rithm
godless dave is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 29th December 2016, 12:23 PM   #2906
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 28,796
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Why couldn't we just keep recycling?

Because you aren't immortal. Sooner or later you will have to stop.
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 29th December 2016, 12:56 PM   #2907
Hokulele
Deleterious Slab of Damnation
 
Hokulele's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The Biggest Little City in the World
Posts: 29,428
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Or, how about this? What would limit the number of potential selves? Why couldn't we just keep recycling?

The fact that they aren't things limits their number to zero.
__________________
"Oh god...What have you done, zooterkin? WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?!?!?!" - Cleon
Hokulele is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 29th December 2016, 12:57 PM   #2908
Loss Leader
Would Be Ringing (if a bell)
Moderator
 
Loss Leader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 23,064
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Or, how about this? What would limit the number of potential selves? Why couldn't we just keep recycling?

The fact that they're not things. You can't recycle a process. Going 60 mph is not recycling the last time your car went 60 mph.

Also, so long as you're making stuff up, do you have any evidence that the soul doesn't get recycled? You claim that the scientific model says the soul isn't recycled but is brand new each time. Yet, the scientific model doesn't say anything at all about a soul. So, why can't I claim that there are only nine souls, and they are being constantly recycled?

Since time means nothing to the great recycler, he can even go back in time to reuse souls even when they're already experiencing one life. Maybe the couples who are soul-mates actually are the same soul finding itself.

None of this has any evidence in the scientific model, but then neither does anything else you say.
__________________
I have the honor to be
Your Obdt. St

L. Leader
Loss Leader is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 29th December 2016, 02:10 PM   #2909
JoeBentley
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeBentley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 7,264
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
If there is no pool of potential selves, there is no limit to the number of of potential selves
What kind of sense does that make?

Since you can't prove some mythical "Pool of selves" exists that's evidence of an unlimited number of them?

No. You're wrong.

There's no "Pool of potential selves" because there are no potential selves in the way you're using the concept. It is impossible for you to not understand this.
__________________
Hemingway once wrote that "The world is a fine place and worth fighting for." I agree with the second part.

Last edited by JoeBentley; 29th December 2016 at 02:16 PM.
JoeBentley is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 29th December 2016, 03:04 PM   #2910
Agatha
Winking at the Moon
Moderator
 
Agatha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 11,451
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- If there is no pool of potential selves, there is no limit to the number of of potential selves -- and, I think you've already agreed that there is no pool of potential selves.
No. Nonononono. There is no pool of potential selves because there is no such thing as a potential self. Your if-then statement is missing the point that there is no such thing as a potential self.

It is true that there is no pool of potential selves. But that does not mean that the number of potential selves are infinite, it means that the number of potential selves is zero. Zip, none, nada, nil, zero.

The self, the consciousness (or whatever is your current euphemism for a soul) is a process, not a thing. It is dynamic and uncountable. Unless and until you grasp the difference between things and processes, you are doomed to repeat the same silly mistakes that have characterised this thread from the get-go.
__________________
London, Hamburg, Paris, Rome, Rio, Hong Kong, Tokyo; L.A., New York, Amsterdam, Monte Carlo, Shard End and...

Vodka kills salmonella and all other enemies of freedom for sure - Nationalcosmopolitan
Agatha is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 29th December 2016, 03:57 PM   #2911
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
 
Dancing David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 38,442
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Dave,
- If there is no pool of potential selves, there is no limit to the number of of potential selves -- and, I think you've already agreed that there is no pool of potential selves.
- Or, how about this? What would limit the number of potential selves? Why couldn't we just keep recycling?
Would every chemical change in your body create a new self.

(Fallacy of construction and false dichotomy on your part)
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn
And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch
You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager
Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar
Dancing David is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 29th December 2016, 04:04 PM   #2912
JoeBentley
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeBentley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 7,264
It's like a weird inverse Ship of Theseus.
__________________
Hemingway once wrote that "The world is a fine place and worth fighting for." I agree with the second part.
JoeBentley is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 29th December 2016, 04:08 PM   #2913
Jabba
Illuminator
 
Jabba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,742
Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
There is no limit to the number of potential bananas or potential Volkswagens.

We've been over this before.

At the time you were born, the number of potential selves that could have been born was limited by the number of humans of reproductive age and all the different ways they could combine their genetic material to produce offspring. That's a large number of possibilities, but it's not infinite.

Right now you already exist, so the number of potential selves is irrelevant to the likelihood of your current existence.
Dave,
- Wouldn't you say that one of Cleopatra's ova and one of my sperm cells would represent a potential self that never had a chance? And, in determining the number of potential selves, shouldn't we count potential selves that never had a chance?
__________________
"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski
"Most good ideas don't work." Jabba
"Et tamen salsus est ratio plerumque recta ad unum." Jabba's Razor
Jabba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 29th December 2016, 04:33 PM   #2914
Hokulele
Deleterious Slab of Damnation
 
Hokulele's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The Biggest Little City in the World
Posts: 29,428
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- Wouldn't you say that one of Cleopatra's ova and one of my sperm cells would represent a potential self that never had a chance? And, in determining the number of potential selves, shouldn't we count potential selves that never had a chance?

No. The self is not a thing.
__________________
"Oh god...What have you done, zooterkin? WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?!?!?!" - Cleon
Hokulele is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 29th December 2016, 04:59 PM   #2915
godless dave
Great Dalmuti
 
godless dave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,944
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- Wouldn't you say that one of Cleopatra's ova and one of my sperm cells would represent a potential self that never had a chance? And, in determining the number of potential selves, shouldn't we count potential selves that never had a chance?
No, because your existence depends on the existence of people who were alive at the same time Cleopatra was. Impossible selves aren't potential selves.
__________________
"If it's real, then it gets more interesting the closer you examine it. If it's not real, just the opposite is true." - aggle-rithm
godless dave is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 29th December 2016, 05:08 PM   #2916
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 28,796
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- Wouldn't you say that one of Cleopatra's ova and one of my sperm cells would represent a potential self that never had a chance? And, in determining the number of potential selves, shouldn't we count potential selves that never had a chance?

Jabba,
- The human genome has a finite number of base pairs. This means that there are only a finite number of possible sequences. You have already been told this. Repeatedly.

ETA: That is not the only thing wrong with your argument; it's just the one I am pointing out in this post.
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

Last edited by Mojo; 29th December 2016 at 05:14 PM.
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 29th December 2016, 05:55 PM   #2917
Loss Leader
Would Be Ringing (if a bell)
Moderator
 
Loss Leader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 23,064
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- Wouldn't you say that one of Cleopatra's ova and one of my sperm cells would represent a potential self that never had a chance? And, in determining the number of potential selves, shouldn't we count potential selves that never had a chance?

There is no such thing as a "potential self."
__________________
I have the honor to be
Your Obdt. St

L. Leader
Loss Leader is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 29th December 2016, 06:33 PM   #2918
John Jones
Penultimate Amazing
 
John Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,838
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Dave,
- If there is no pool of potential selves, there is no limit to the number of of potential selves [...]
Non sequitur

This has all been patiently and carefully explained to you dozens of times over the last 4 or 5 years in the simplest of all possible terms.

You keep ignoring all these explanations and repeating the same baseless claims time after time.
__________________
Credibility is not a boomerang. If you throw it away, it's not coming back.

Last edited by John Jones; 29th December 2016 at 06:35 PM.
John Jones is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 29th December 2016, 07:22 PM   #2919
JoeBentley
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeBentley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 7,264
Jabba what possible combinations of words can anyone make that will result in you responding with anything that would look out of place on Tvtrope's "Insane Troll Logic" page?
__________________
Hemingway once wrote that "The world is a fine place and worth fighting for." I agree with the second part.
JoeBentley is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th December 2016, 02:21 AM   #2920
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 9,185
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
jt,
- What if the prior probabilities are 99% for H, 1% for ~H and the likelihoods are something over infinity for E|H and about 60% for E|~H?
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Dave,
- If there is no pool of potential selves, there is no limit to the number of of potential selves -- and, I think you've already agreed that there is no pool of potential selves.
- Or, how about this? What would limit the number of potential selves? Why couldn't we just keep recycling?
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- Wouldn't you say that one of Cleopatra's ova and one of my sperm cells would represent a potential self that never had a chance? And, in determining the number of potential selves, shouldn't we count potential selves that never had a chance?

Jabba the mistakes you are making have been explained to you patiently, in detail. and in the simplest possible terms, many many times. Why are you simply repeating them as if it was the first time you'd ever made them? Go back and read the responses you got any of the previous times you posted the same faulty arguments, and this time try to understand them.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Closed Thread

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:37 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.