IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags donald trump , racism issues , racists , Trump controversies , Trump supporters

Reply
Old 26th September 2017, 11:08 AM   #81
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 91,292
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Racism is emotional and not based on reason
Can't it be based on erroneous data or some dispassionate perspective? I would think so.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2017, 11:13 AM   #82
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 22,778
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Can't it be based on erroneous data or some dispassionate perspective? I would think so.
Obviously it *could* be. In practice, it doesn't seem to be.

I have a book from the 1950s by Hans Eysenk which includes a chapter on the psychology of antisemitism, and he notes that antisemites in that era tended to hold mutually contradictory views about Jews, for example that they kept separate from society and didn't work, and also that they were steeling jobs by undercutting non Jews, and infiltrating all levels of society with a Jewish agenda.

When I have time, I might find the reference.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2017, 11:15 AM   #83
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 91,292
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I have a book from the 1950s by Hans Eysenk which includes a chapter on the psychology of antisemitism, and he notes that antisemites in that era tended to hold mutually contradictory views about Jews, for example that they kept separate from society and didn't work, and also that they were steeling jobs by undercutting non Jews, and infiltrating all levels of society with a Jewish agenda.
Sounds like they were latching on to any excuse to hate them. I wonder what was the root cause of it, however.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2017, 11:18 AM   #84
Imhotep
Graduate Poster
 
Imhotep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Midwest USA
Posts: 1,025
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Great thinkers don't seem to be able to dissuade racists through argument. This is, of course, not intended to say that such arguments shouldn't be had necessarily, but that your prediction seems fantastic.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
I don't think it's the current racists that will be convinced either. It's the next couple of generations that will.

Last edited by Imhotep; 26th September 2017 at 11:19 AM.
Imhotep is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2017, 11:21 AM   #85
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 22,778
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Sounds like they were latching on to any excuse to hate them. I wonder what was the root cause of it, however.
I'd guess that they'd been brought up to hate. Nothing more. It's hard to unlearn what you learned as a kid at an emotional level.

ETA: especially when you haven't been given any reason to try to unlearn it.

It also seems standard conspiracy theory material.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

Last edited by jimbob; 26th September 2017 at 11:23 AM.
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2017, 01:47 PM   #86
phiwum
Penultimate Amazing
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 12,718
Originally Posted by Imhotep View Post
I don't think it's the current racists that will be convinced either. It's the next couple of generations that will.
I wonder what sort of great thinkers you have in mind.

I hate to say it, because it betrays a cynicism about the power of reason that I wish I didn't have, but marketing is your best bet and marketing doesn't require that we first have a dialogue about our beliefs and prejudices.

Now, all that said, I'm not arguing in favor of hate speech laws or anything of the sort. I like that freedom of speech in the U.S. is quite broad. I just don't think "Let's all have a chat about our opinions and then the big thinkers will reason us out of the worst ones and into the best ones" is a promising strategy, not even in a couple of generations.
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2017, 07:26 PM   #87
Stacko
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,837
With the lawless racist theocrat, Roy Moore, beating Trump and McConnell backed conventionalish, Luther Strange, in Alabama, it seems a hardcore portion of GOP base that wants more open bigotry has been activated. Trump may be more the result of these people coalescing in pursuit of that goal than the catalyst.
Stacko is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2017, 07:38 PM   #88
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 41,468
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's hard to take your concern seriously when all you bring is sarcasm. It gives the impression you don't even take it seriously yourself.

Anyway, your argument is both a non sequitur and contrafactual. And "those on the right" is a pretty weaselly phrasing. You were having a conversation with other members here. You don't need to appeal to an anonymous other group, "those on the right". You can actually address the claims and arguments made by the members involved in the conversation. Assuming any of them have actually said what you're claiming. So c'mon: Put aside the sarcasm and the elisions, and have at it.
What a strange post! Have you taken up tone policing, now? The thread hadn't seen any activity in a bit. I ran across this old article compliments of another poster in another thread.

It struck me that the enablers and apologists always demand firm evidence that any misanthropic deed we post be proven to be Trump related. Since this one has his very words saying that he's got Trump in office so he is going to merrily discriminate based on her "race".

As usual, you have no problems nitpicking the terms used, but you don't address the issue! Here's a bigot who felt so enabled by the Orange Cheeto that he decided to exercise his rights to be a bigot.

That seems pretty clear.
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2017, 07:41 PM   #89
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 41,468
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's hard to take your concern seriously when all you bring is sarcasm. It gives the impression you don't even take it seriously yourself.

Anyway, your argument is both a non sequitur and contrafactual. And "those on the right" is a pretty weaselly phrasing. You were having a conversation with other members here. You don't need to appeal to an anonymous other group, "those on the right". You can actually address the claims and arguments made by the members involved in the conversation. Assuming any of them have actually said what you're claiming. So c'mon: Put aside the sarcasm and the elisions, and have at it.
What a strange post! Have you taken up tone policing, now? The thread hadn't seen any activity in a bit. I ran across this old article compliments of another poster in another thread.

It struck me that the enablers and apologists always demand firm evidence that any misanthropic deed we post be proven to be Trump related. Since this one has his very words saying that he's got Trump in office so he is going to merrily discriminate based on her "race".

As usual, you have no problems nitpicking the terms used, but you don't address the issue! Here's a bigot who felt so enabled by the Orange Cheeto that he decided to exercise his rights to be a bigot.

That seems pretty clear.

ETA: Hilited bit.... turns out that's wrong. What it hadn't seen was much activity related to the topic of the thread.
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th September 2017, 03:14 AM   #90
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 50,412
Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
With the lawless racist theocrat, Roy Moore, beating Trump and McConnell backed conventionalish, Luther Strange, in Alabama, it seems a hardcore portion of GOP base that wants more open bigotry has been activated. Trump may be more the result of these people coalescing in pursuit of that goal than the catalyst.
The bigots certainly cite trump a lot when harassing people. But for some reason we are supposed to ignore all that. Hell during the campaign his campaign slogans were used in racial harassment, that should give people a clue about what he was all about.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2018, 04:22 PM   #91
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 32,373
Scientific American: Do Trump Tweets Spur Hate Crimes?

Quote:
Muller and Schwarz analyzed the relationship between Trumpís tweets and anti-Muslim hate crimes by drawing upon a number of data sources, including the FBIís hate crime data between the years 1990 and 2016 as well as Twitter usage across the country. First, they documented that the number of anti-Muslim hate crimes recorded by the FBI increased during Trumpís presidency. In fact, anti-Muslim crimes have been more prevalent under Trump compared to any other previous president, including George W. Bush following 9/11. Second, the researchers found strong statistical correlations between the number of Islam-related tweets made by Trump in a single week and the number of anti-Muslim hate crimes that took place in the days and weeks that followed. Trumpís anti-Islam tweets were only correlated with anti-Muslim crimes and not other types of hate crimes. Therefore, it seems likely that it was the specific content of Trumpís tweets, and not growing anti-minority sentiment in general, that were linked to the uptick in anti-Muslim hate crimes.
However:
Quote:
While highly suggestive, a major limitation of this research is that it is correlational not causal. In order to prove that Trumpís tweets truly caused an increase in hate crimes, the researchers would need to run a carefully controlled experiment showing that exposure to such messages leads people to act out in hateful ways. This research also does not prove that Trumpís tweets cause people to hold prejudicial views towards Muslims. In fact, the researchers themselves do not seem to believe this. Instead, they point out that their findings are consistent with the idea that Trumpís presidency has made it more socially acceptable for many people to express prejudicial or hateful views that they already possessed prior to his election.
FWIW
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"Itís easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.
Upchurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2018, 04:47 PM   #92
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 20,129
You could just ask the people that do it. How many have actually admitted that Trump gives them permission? More than a few
__________________
"As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets
pgwenthold is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2018, 05:36 PM   #93
Tsukasa Buddha
Other (please write in)
 
Tsukasa Buddha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,294
Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
You could just ask the people that do it. How many have actually admitted that Trump gives them permission? More than a few
Just the other day:

Quote:
That's when the woman yelled "Go back to Mexico!" at his mother, Guzman told CNN.

The video starts with the woman holding her middle finger up to Guzmanís face as he says, "I donít know why you hate us. Why do you hate us?" To which she responds, "Because youíre Mexicans."


"Weíre honest people right here," he says. The woman laughs.

"Yeah, rapists," she says, and as Guzman tries to interject, she continues: "And animals. And drug dealers. Drug dealers, rapists and animals. Even the president of the United States says so."
Linky.
__________________
As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn
Tsukasa Buddha is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2018, 07:25 PM   #94
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 50,310
Support Trump, Support Bigotry.
It's that simple.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2018, 07:31 PM   #95
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 50,310
ANd with Trump emboldended by the Supreme Court decision we ain't seen nothing yet.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:53 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.