IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags donald trump , Omarosa Manigault , Trump appointees , Trump supporters

Reply
Old 22nd August 2018, 11:53 PM   #481
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 14,180
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm being dead serious here but what does, in a democracy, "marginalize" mean that isn't just straight up voter fraud/disenfranchisement.

Now if your opinion is that one side has committed these acts and you are simply undoing them, fine that's perfectly valid.

But there is an air of... sour grapes to the whole "Oh we'll win as soon as the system is fair" argument.

You do have to ask yourself, if even as a hypothetical, what happens when you even the playing field... and you still lose?

So hypothetically... you get rid of gerrymandering. You get rid of voter ID laws. You create a perfectly fair electoral system over an infinite plane of uniform gravity in a friction-less vacuum and you assume perfectly spherical voters.... and you still lose. What then?
It means turn out the vote and make the majority count. I am very much arguing that there's cheating going on on the GOP side. This cheating is systematic and designed to overvalue the votes of some while undervaluing the votes of others. A clear tell of this is the fact that the GOP can't seem to win the popular vote but still wind up with the Presidency.

On the state level, gerrymandering has the same effect, as have the various programs of voter disenfranchisement and suppression that have been developed by GOP operatives.

Once these efforts to cheat the system are removed, the GOP will never win an election again - at least until they change their vicious policies - thus marginalizing the racist Trumpist vote.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2018, 02:06 AM   #482
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,632
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
You can't even ask if some of the gender differences in STEM is not just due to discrimination against women.
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
He was publicly shamed and fired.
Quote:
Yes that guy. What I have read of the memo was pretty badly mischaracterized at the in the media.
The memo also included stuff like "the Left tends to deny science concerning biological differences between people (e.g., IQ[8] and sex differences)."

What kind of "IQ differences" do some think "the left" wants to deny? See the bigoted unstated assumptions packed into there?

This person was not simply asking if some of the gender differences in STEM could be biological.
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2018, 02:27 AM   #483
Tommy Jeppesen
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,578
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
The memo also included stuff like "the Left tends to deny science concerning biological differences between people (e.g., IQ[8] and sex differences)."

What kind of "IQ differences" do some think "the left" wants to deny? See the bigoted unstated assumptions packed into there?

This person was not simply asking if some of the gender differences in STEM could be biological.
"The Left" is not just rational unbiased and non-bigoted liberals. So it is more accurate to start with some parts of "the Left".
As a part of "the Left", there are other parts of "the Left", that I disagree with and I will admit that. I try not to be tribal and biased simply because it is "the Left". Right now "the Right" is worse so it is not a claim of being equal. "The Right" is worse, but that won't stop me from speaking out against parts of "the Left".

So you want to concentrate on fighting "the Right"?!!
I fight all "flanks" from a position on "the Center(-Left)", because sometimes I am not on "the Left", sometimes I am in "the Center" and a few times I am on "the Right".
__________________
I don't believe in God and all the rest outside of methodological naturalism But I am a cognitive and ethical relativist/subjectivist and skeptic.
#JeSuisAhmed
Tommy Jeppesen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2018, 04:14 AM   #484
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 50,412
Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
"The Left" is not just rational unbiased and non-bigoted liberals. So it is more accurate to start with some parts of "the Left".
As a part of "the Left", there are other parts of "the Left", that I disagree with and I will admit that. I try not to be tribal and biased simply because it is "the Left". Right now "the Right" is worse so it is not a claim of being equal. "The Right" is worse, but that won't stop me from speaking out against parts of "the Left".
Yes the left refuses to accept the intellectual inferiority of certain races/sexes is clearly one of the biggest marks against it.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2018, 05:31 AM   #485
Tommy Jeppesen
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,578
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yes the left refuses to accept the intellectual inferiority of certain races/sexes is clearly one of the biggest marks against it.
Doubt it!
__________________
I don't believe in God and all the rest outside of methodological naturalism But I am a cognitive and ethical relativist/subjectivist and skeptic.
#JeSuisAhmed
Tommy Jeppesen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2018, 05:40 AM   #486
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 49,523
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I KNOW You are definitely right on a few occasions. A better phrasing would be to protect the integrity of our institutions.
That just sounds like protecting the integrity of our bodily fluids. Which is legit crazy talk.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2018, 08:17 AM   #487
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 28,190
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That just sounds like protecting the integrity of our bodily fluids. Which is legit crazy talk.
Hmmm. I don't get that. IMV, the institutions don't really matter, nor should be protected if they dont have integrity.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2018, 09:42 AM   #488
LSSBB
Devilish Dictionarian
 
LSSBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 20,058
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Hmmm. I don't get that. IMV, the institutions don't really matter, nor should be protected if they dont have integrity.
Hi think he is referring to Sterling Hayden in Dr. Strangelove.
__________________
"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles
LSSBB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2018, 01:06 PM   #489
tyr_13
Penultimate Amazing
 
tyr_13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 16,411
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Every other time I can think of from history, the people arguing that they must "protect our institutions" turned out to be the villains.
From your posting history, I land pretty much on your "side", but that phrasing makes me a little nervous.
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I KNOW You are definitely right on a few occasions. A better phrasing would be to protect the integrity of our institutions.

I chose that wording to attempt to have it resonate with conservatives actually. That it elicits trepidation from non-conservatives gives a kind of appropriate insight into some of the difficulties.

You're right that it has historically been employed as an appeal to tradition fallacy and to uphold abhorrent practices such as slavery. But if it isn't being used in that fashion (the institutes are actually worth preserving on their merits, not simply because they've been around) then the idea isn't inherently negative. Representative democracy, apolitical civil servants, avoiding even the appearance of conflicts of interest, are all worthwhile concepts that are under attack right now from the GOP, to a degree that's legitimately harmful.

Not giving in to their attacks and this tactic is more important than appearing reasonable. Being reasonable is much more important than appearing it. Where genuine common ground can be found, great, but them calling something 'common ground' does not make it so. The GOP, as a whole and especially the leadership will the full support of 90% of their base, are not arguing nor behaving in good faith. Even to each other, their deals and promises are currently worthless. It is time for them to search for the common ground and convince everyone else.
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing.
"Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel
Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong
tyr_13 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2018, 01:12 PM   #490
LSSBB
Devilish Dictionarian
 
LSSBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 20,058
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
I chose that wording to attempt to have it resonate with conservatives actually. That it elicits trepidation from non-conservatives gives a kind of appropriate insight into some of the difficulties.

You're right that it has historically been employed as an appeal to tradition fallacy and to uphold abhorrent practices such as slavery. But if it isn't being used in that fashion (the institutes are actually worth preserving on their merits, not simply because they've been around) then the idea isn't inherently negative. Representative democracy, apolitical civil servants, avoiding even the appearance of conflicts of interest, are all worthwhile concepts that are under attack right now from the GOP, to a degree that's legitimately harmful.

Not giving in to their attacks and this tactic is more important than appearing reasonable. Being reasonable is much more important than appearing it. Where genuine common ground can be found, great, but them calling something 'common ground' does not make it so. The GOP, as a whole and especially the leadership will the full support of 90% of their base, are not arguing nor behaving in good faith. Even to each other, their deals and promises are currently worthless. It is time for them to search for the common ground and convince everyone else.
I see, you were assuming GOP "conservatives" were really conservative, and not reactionary.
__________________
"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles
LSSBB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2018, 08:15 PM   #491
The Norseman
Meandering fecklessly
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,424
Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
For at least the last three decades, right-wing propaganda has been devoted to driving a wedge down the country, hoping to end up with the bigger half and insisting that the only common ground has to be on their side of the divide. We can't get them to change the game; all we can do now is play to win it.
No, the rules of the game need to be thrown away. There's no way to win when they literally write those rules.


Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That just sounds like protecting the integrity of our bodily fluids. Which is legit crazy talk.
I thought you hated analogies and decried their use. What do bodily fluids have anything to do with anything?
The Norseman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2018, 08:26 PM   #492
LSSBB
Devilish Dictionarian
 
LSSBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 20,058
Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
No, the rules of the game need to be thrown away. There's no way to win when they literally write those rules.



I thought you hated analogies and decried their use. What do bodily fluids have anything to do with anything?
What is this younger generation coming to? Have classics such as Dr. Strangelove been relegated to the dustbin of history?
__________________
"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles
LSSBB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2018, 08:34 PM   #493
Mike!
Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Respect it!
 
Mike!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Ponylandistan! Where the bacon grows on trees! Can it get any better than that? I submit it can not!
Posts: 40,178
Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
What is this younger generation coming to? Have classics such as Dr. Strangelove been relegated to the dustbin of history?
Can we get an amen, brother!
__________________
"Never judge a man until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes...
Because then it won't really matter, you’ll be a mile away and have his shoes."
Mike! is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2018, 08:41 PM   #494
beachnut
Penultimate Amazing
 
beachnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 25,831
Common ground? lol, trump supporters (aka the cult) have no clue trump lies orders of magnitude more than any president in history : and they have no clue what order of magnitudes means until they look it up - just like trump would but he has no clue how to look it up.

Not to mention, oops, the biggest name calling president in history, and the president who has insulted the most people/places and things in history. Common ground, there has to be critical thinking skills to have common ground, the trump cult has none.
__________________
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen" - Albert Einstein
"... education as the means of developing our greatest abilities" - JFK
https://folding.stanford.edu/ fold with your computer - join team 13232
beachnut is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2018, 09:01 PM   #495
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 49,523
Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
What is this younger generation coming to? Have classics such as Dr. Strangelove been relegated to the dustbin of history?
Right?

People getting upset because "protect our institutions" sounds too fascist. But "protect the integrity of our institutions" doesn't sound obviously crazy?
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2018, 09:25 PM   #496
The Norseman
Meandering fecklessly
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,424
Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
What is this younger generation coming to? Have classics such as Dr. Strangelove been relegated to the dustbin of history?
Mea culpa. One of the classics I have not seen.

Quote marks would have helped though.
The Norseman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2018, 07:47 AM   #497
Tony
Penultimate Amazing
 
Tony's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,408
Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
A Democratic President behaving as a national embarrassment on the world stage (sucking up to Putin at Helsinki, caging children, kowtowing to Kim, etc., etc., etc.) would suffer serious pushback from his Party and voters. But with Trump's supporters it's "America, **** yeah!"

The Dems ousted a Senator of theirs based on a single (adult) person's claims of sexual impropriety, but the Repubs elect "Grab 'em by the pussy!" Trump while he was also standing accused by more than a dozen women, *and* they tried to elect another creep for Senator accused of molesting teens.

Indeed. Where's the common ground?
I think you’re right. Which is unfortunate. Republicans understand the game is about power. Democrats remove effective people from power over non-issues. It’s a shame Democrats are stupid enough to think that having a veneer of morality is more important than achieving their political goals.
__________________
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle

Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Mark Twain

Last edited by Tony; 25th August 2018 at 08:42 AM.
Tony is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2018, 12:24 PM   #498
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
Originally Posted by Tony View Post
I think you’re right. Which is unfortunate. Republicans understand the game is about power. Democrats remove effective people from power over non-issues. It’s a shame Democrats are stupid enough to think that having a veneer of morality is more important than achieving their political goals.
The Democrats come by their positions because of issues of morality, particularly fairness. The Republicans are like the Inner Party in 1984: power solely for power's sake. And power is defined by the ability to hurt someone. In the Republican's case, brown people and the poor are who they like to hurt.

Last edited by Fudbucker; 25th August 2018 at 12:26 PM.
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2018, 01:07 PM   #499
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 48,282
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
The Democrats come by their positions because of issues of morality, particularly fairness. The Republicans are like the Inner Party in 1984: power solely for power's sake.
Isn't that always the case, that your side has pure motives and your opponents sordid ones. Which is really the perfect excuse to not find common ground, because what common ground can be found with villains.

This thread is a perfect encapsulation of the hypocrisy and irony of the "skeptic" approach to politics.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2018, 01:20 PM   #500
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Isn't that always the case, that your side has pure motives and your opponents sordid ones. Which is really the perfect excuse to not find common ground, because what common ground can be found with villains.

This thread is a perfect encapsulation of the hypocrisy and irony of the "skeptic" approach to politics.
Except when your side does have good motives and the other side has degenerated into a racist cult of personality.
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2018, 02:58 PM   #501
Tony
Penultimate Amazing
 
Tony's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,408
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
The Democrats come by their positions because of issues of morality, particularly fairness.
“Morality”? (warped and shallow as it may be) yes. Fairness? Not really. They are bankrolled by the same corporate kleptocrats that bankroll the republicans.

Quote:
The Republicans are like the Inner Party in 1984: power solely for power's sake. And power is defined by the ability to hurt someone. In the Republican's case, brown people and the poor are who they like to hurt.
That’s my point. It’s also my point that they are winning.
__________________
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle

Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Mark Twain

Last edited by Tony; 25th August 2018 at 03:00 PM.
Tony is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2018, 03:07 PM   #502
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
Originally Posted by Tony View Post
“Morality”? (warped and shallow as it may be) yes. Fairness? Not really. They are bankrolled by the same corporate kleptocrats that bankroll the republicans.
By fairness, I mostly mean civil rights, women's rights, and healthcare coverage. The Democrats have staked out morally principled positions. They are corporate lackeys in other respects, but in those areas I listed, they are doing good work.



Quote:
That’s my point. It’s also my point that they are winning.
I'd rather be Winston than O'brian. In other words, I'd rather lose fighting the good fight, then become like the GOP.
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2018, 03:20 PM   #503
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 22,777
Where can the common ground be with anyone who thinks there are good people supporting this?


__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2018, 04:01 PM   #504
LSSBB
Devilish Dictionarian
 
LSSBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 20,058
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
By fairness, I mostly mean civil rights, women's rights, and healthcare coverage. The Democrats have staked out morally principled positions. They are corporate lackeys in other respects, but in those areas I listed, they are doing good work.





I'd rather be Winston than O'brian. In other words, I'd rather lose fighting the good fight, then become like the GOP.
Not in every state. In at least one state I am very familiar with, the Democrats are driven by perpetuating their machine.
__________________
"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles
LSSBB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2018, 04:37 PM   #505
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Not in every state. In at least one state I am very familiar with, the Democrats are driven by perpetuating their machine.
I'm talking more about the national level. I will put up with a lot if it means gays don't lose their right to marry, women don't have to get back-alley abortions, SCOTUS upholds union rights, etc.
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2018, 05:41 PM   #506
LSSBB
Devilish Dictionarian
 
LSSBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 20,058
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
I'm talking more about the national level. I will put up with a lot if it means gays don't lose their right to marry, women don't have to get back-alley abortions, SCOTUS upholds union rights, etc.
Would you put up with a lying, misogynistic, extremely narcissitic president to get those things?
__________________
"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles
LSSBB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2018, 07:54 PM   #507
Delvo
Дэлво Δελϝο דֶלְבֹֿ देल्वो
 
Delvo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: North Tonawanda, NY
Posts: 9,281
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
I'd rather lose fighting the good fight, then become like the GOP.
Why not just pick one instead of doing first one and then the other?
Delvo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2018, 08:25 PM   #508
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,632
Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Would you put up with a lying, misogynistic, extremely narcissitic president to get those things?
I don't think I'd vote for someone like that, because I wouldn't trust them to really intend to try their best to implement the policies they claim to want to implement.
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan

Last edited by kellyb; 25th August 2018 at 09:27 PM.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2018, 09:19 PM   #509
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Would you put up with a lying, misogynistic, extremely narcissitic president to get those things?
No. I would force the person to resign and let the VP take over. Why the GOP has failed to do this, when they have a perfectly capable VP, is a total mystery to me.
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2018, 09:33 PM   #510
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
 
thaiboxerken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 31,706
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
No. I would force the person to resign and let the VP take over. Why the GOP has failed to do this, when they have a perfectly capable VP, is a total mystery to me.
Cowardice. They are afraid of Cult 45.
__________________
1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.
thaiboxerken is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2018, 09:35 PM   #511
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,632
Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Would you put up with a lying, misogynistic, extremely narcissitic president to get those things?
More thoughts on this question:

The misogyny would be gross, but nowhere near worth consideration regarding grounds for impeachment, assuming in this scenario I'm a member of congress.

The lying and narcissism would only come into play regarding impeachment if it was so severe it qualified as "pathological" - aka "bat**** insane pathological lying and "personality disordered" narcissism".

I think Bill Clinton was a pretty vile individual overall - lying, misogynistic, and extremely narcissitic.
But he was not bat**** insane.
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan

Last edited by kellyb; 25th August 2018 at 09:44 PM.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2018, 09:42 PM   #512
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,632
Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Cowardice. They are afraid of Cult 45.
Part that, part the fact that they're getting their policies pushed through now because of him, with regards to tax cuts designed to make "entitlement reform" an "emergency" in the near future (according to their voodoo/scam economic religion where a ballooning deficit means "impending inflation") and making the rich, richer and the poor, poorer. Also, the "freedom" of industry to pollute, etc.

But yes, they also fear Trump's voter-base cult's wrath, too, when it comes to their own job security.
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan

Last edited by kellyb; 25th August 2018 at 09:45 PM.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2018, 10:32 PM   #513
The Norseman
Meandering fecklessly
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,424
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
I'm talking more about the national level. I will put up with a lot if it means gays don't lose their right to marry, women don't have to get back-alley abortions, SCOTUS upholds union rights, etc.
Have you not been paying attention?

The Supreme court has recently declared that Christians can discriminate against gays, anti-abortion people can lie to vulnerable women seeking information, anti-abortion clinics do not have to provide information regarding abortion, and another hit against unions when they falsely/erroneously claimed that union dues were being used to support political parties and thus made it that non-union people were freed from having to pay dues at all, further weakening unions.

That's just the top of my head and only recently too.
The Norseman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th August 2018, 04:58 AM   #514
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 22,777
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Isn't that always the case, that your side has pure motives and your opponents sordid ones. Which is really the perfect excuse to not find common ground, because what common ground can be found with villains.

This thread is a perfect encapsulation of the hypocrisy and irony of the "skeptic" approach to politics.
What is your opinion on Trump meeting with a prominent QAnon proponent?

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefi...theory-in-oval

Quote:
The Daily Beast first reported on Friday that YouTube conspiracy theorist Lionel Lebron was at the White House for an event and that during his visit he posed for photos with Trump in the Oval Office.

"There simply are no words to explicate this profound honor," Lebron wrote on Instagram while sharing a photo of him and Trump.
That is not exactly helping rational people make bridges to the Trump support
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th August 2018, 05:12 AM   #515
Garrison
Philosopher
 
Garrison's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 5,520
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Where can the common ground be with anyone who thinks there are good people supporting this?

So that's just a phony someone mocked up? Please tell me that's the case...
__________________
So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/
And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX
Garrison is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th August 2018, 05:17 AM   #516
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 22,777
My understanding is that it was genuine.

Helpful as it isn't exactly a dogwhistle, but does use images that the right like to think of as deniable - (Pepe the frog) for example.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:03 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.