Where is the Common Ground? - Page 13

uke2se · 22nd August 2018, 11:53 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

I'm being dead serious here but what does, in a democracy, "marginalize" mean that isn't just straight up voter fraud/disenfranchisement.

Now if your opinion is that one side has committed these acts and you are simply undoing them, fine that's perfectly valid.

But there is an air of... sour grapes to the whole "Oh we'll win as soon as the system is fair" argument.

You do have to ask yourself, if even as a hypothetical, what happens when you even the playing field... and you still lose?

So hypothetically... you get rid of gerrymandering. You get rid of voter ID laws. You create a perfectly fair electoral system over an infinite plane of uniform gravity in a friction-less vacuum and you assume perfectly spherical voters.... and you still lose. What then?

It means turn out the vote and make the majority count. I am very much arguing that there's cheating going on on the GOP side. This cheating is systematic and designed to overvalue the votes of some while undervaluing the votes of others. A clear tell of this is the fact that the GOP can't seem to win the popular vote but still wind up with the Presidency.

On the state level, gerrymandering has the same effect, as have the various programs of voter disenfranchisement and suppression that have been developed by GOP operatives.

Once these efforts to cheat the system are removed, the GOP will never win an election again - at least until they change their vicious policies - thus marginalizing the racist Trumpist vote.

kellyb · 23rd August 2018, 02:06 AM

Originally Posted by ahhell

You can't even ask if some of the gender differences in STEM is not just due to discrimination against women.

Originally Posted by ahhell

He was publicly shamed and fired.

Quote:

Yes that guy. What I have read of the memo was pretty badly mischaracterized at the in the media.

The memo also included stuff like "the Left tends to deny science concerning biological differences between people (e.g., IQ[8] and sex differences)."

What kind of "IQ differences" do some think "the left" wants to deny? See the bigoted unstated assumptions packed into there?

This person was not simply asking if some of the gender differences in STEM could be biological.

Tommy Jeppesen · 23rd August 2018, 02:27 AM

Originally Posted by kellyb

The memo also included stuff like "the Left tends to deny science concerning biological differences between people (e.g., IQ[8] and sex differences)."

What kind of "IQ differences" do some think "the left" wants to deny? See the bigoted unstated assumptions packed into there?

This person was not simply asking if some of the gender differences in STEM could be biological.

"The Left" is not just rational unbiased and non-bigoted liberals. So it is more accurate to start with some parts of "the Left".
As a part of "the Left", there are other parts of "the Left", that I disagree with and I will admit that. I try not to be tribal and biased simply because it is "the Left". Right now "the Right" is worse so it is not a claim of being equal. "The Right" is worse, but that won't stop me from speaking out against parts of "the Left".

So you want to concentrate on fighting "the Right"?!!
I fight all "flanks" from a position on "the Center(-Left)", because sometimes I am not on "the Left", sometimes I am in "the Center" and a few times I am on "the Right".

ponderingturtle · 23rd August 2018, 04:14 AM

Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen

"The Left" is not just rational unbiased and non-bigoted liberals. So it is more accurate to start with some parts of "the Left".
As a part of "the Left", there are other parts of "the Left", that I disagree with and I will admit that. I try not to be tribal and biased simply because it is "the Left". Right now "the Right" is worse so it is not a claim of being equal. "The Right" is worse, but that won't stop me from speaking out against parts of "the Left".

Yes the left refuses to accept the intellectual inferiority of certain races/sexes is clearly one of the biggest marks against it.

Tommy Jeppesen · 23rd August 2018, 05:31 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Yes the left refuses to accept the intellectual inferiority of certain races/sexes is clearly one of the biggest marks against it.

Doubt it!

theprestige · 23rd August 2018, 05:40 AM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

I KNOW You are definitely right on a few occasions. A better phrasing would be to protect the integrity of our institutions.

That just sounds like protecting the integrity of our bodily fluids. Which is legit crazy talk.

acbytesla · 23rd August 2018, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

That just sounds like protecting the integrity of our bodily fluids. Which is legit crazy talk.

Hmmm. I don't get that. IMV, the institutions don't really matter, nor should be protected if they dont have integrity.

LSSBB · 23rd August 2018, 09:42 AM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Hmmm. I don't get that. IMV, the institutions don't really matter, nor should be protected if they dont have integrity.

Hi think he is referring to Sterling Hayden in Dr. Strangelove.

tyr_13 · 23rd August 2018, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by Distracted1

Every other time I can think of from history, the people arguing that they must "protect our institutions" turned out to be the villains.
From your posting history, I land pretty much on your "side", but that phrasing makes me a little nervous.

Originally Posted by acbytesla

I KNOW You are definitely right on a few occasions. A better phrasing would be to protect the integrity of our institutions.

I chose that wording to attempt to have it resonate with conservatives actually. That it elicits trepidation from non-conservatives gives a kind of appropriate insight into some of the difficulties.

You're right that it has historically been employed as an appeal to tradition fallacy and to uphold abhorrent practices such as slavery. But if it isn't being used in that fashion (the institutes are actually worth preserving on their merits, not simply because they've been around) then the idea isn't inherently negative. Representative democracy, apolitical civil servants, avoiding even the appearance of conflicts of interest, are all worthwhile concepts that are under attack right now from the GOP, to a degree that's legitimately harmful.

Not giving in to their attacks and this tactic is more important than appearing reasonable. Being reasonable is much more important than appearing it. Where genuine common ground can be found, great, but them calling something 'common ground' does not make it so. The GOP, as a whole and especially the leadership will the full support of 90% of their base, are not arguing nor behaving in good faith. Even to each other, their deals and promises are currently worthless. It is time for them to search for the common ground and convince everyone else.

LSSBB · 23rd August 2018, 01:12 PM

Originally Posted by tyr_13

I chose that wording to attempt to have it resonate with conservatives actually. That it elicits trepidation from non-conservatives gives a kind of appropriate insight into some of the difficulties.

You're right that it has historically been employed as an appeal to tradition fallacy and to uphold abhorrent practices such as slavery. But if it isn't being used in that fashion (the institutes are actually worth preserving on their merits, not simply because they've been around) then the idea isn't inherently negative. Representative democracy, apolitical civil servants, avoiding even the appearance of conflicts of interest, are all worthwhile concepts that are under attack right now from the GOP, to a degree that's legitimately harmful.

Not giving in to their attacks and this tactic is more important than appearing reasonable. Being reasonable is much more important than appearing it. Where genuine common ground can be found, great, but them calling something 'common ground' does not make it so. The GOP, as a whole and especially the leadership will the full support of 90% of their base, are not arguing nor behaving in good faith. Even to each other, their deals and promises are currently worthless. It is time for them to search for the common ground and convince everyone else.

I see, you were assuming GOP "conservatives" were really conservative, and not reactionary.

The Norseman · 23rd August 2018, 08:15 PM

Originally Posted by WilliamSeger

For at least the last three decades, right-wing propaganda has been devoted to driving a wedge down the country, hoping to end up with the bigger half and insisting that the only common ground has to be on their side of the divide. We can't get them to change the game; all we can do now is play to win it.

No, the rules of the game need to be thrown away. There's no way to win when they literally write those rules.

Originally Posted by theprestige

That just sounds like protecting the integrity of our bodily fluids. Which is legit crazy talk.

I thought you hated analogies and decried their use. What do bodily fluids have anything to do with anything?

LSSBB · 23rd August 2018, 08:26 PM

Originally Posted by The Norseman

No, the rules of the game need to be thrown away. There's no way to win when they literally write those rules.

I thought you hated analogies and decried their use. What do bodily fluids have anything to do with anything?

What is this younger generation coming to? Have classics such as Dr. Strangelove been relegated to the dustbin of history?

Mike! · 23rd August 2018, 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by LSSBB

What is this younger generation coming to? Have classics such as Dr. Strangelove been relegated to the dustbin of history?

Can we get an amen, brother!

beachnut · 23rd August 2018, 08:41 PM

Common ground? lol, trump supporters (aka the cult) have no clue trump lies orders of magnitude more than any president in history : and they have no clue what order of magnitudes means until they look it up - just like trump would but he has no clue how to look it up.

Not to mention, oops, the biggest name calling president in history, and the president who has insulted the most people/places and things in history. Common ground, there has to be critical thinking skills to have common ground, the trump cult has none.

theprestige · 23rd August 2018, 09:01 PM

Originally Posted by LSSBB

What is this younger generation coming to? Have classics such as Dr. Strangelove been relegated to the dustbin of history?

Right?

People getting upset because "protect our institutions" sounds too fascist. But "protect the integrity of our institutions" doesn't sound obviously crazy?

The Norseman · 23rd August 2018, 09:25 PM

Originally Posted by LSSBB

What is this younger generation coming to? Have classics such as Dr. Strangelove been relegated to the dustbin of history?

Mea culpa. One of the classics I have not seen.

Quote marks would have helped though.

Tony · 25th August 2018, 07:47 AM

Originally Posted by Lurch

A Democratic President behaving as a national embarrassment on the world stage (sucking up to Putin at Helsinki, caging children, kowtowing to Kim, etc., etc., etc.) would suffer serious pushback from his Party and voters. But with Trump's supporters it's "America, **** yeah!"

The Dems ousted a Senator of theirs based on a single (adult) person's claims of sexual impropriety, but the Repubs elect "Grab 'em by the pussy!" Trump while he was also standing accused by more than a dozen women, *and* they tried to elect another creep for Senator accused of molesting teens.

Indeed. Where's the common ground?

I think you’re right. Which is unfortunate. Republicans understand the game is about power. Democrats remove effective people from power over non-issues. It’s a shame Democrats are stupid enough to think that having a veneer of morality is more important than achieving their political goals.

Fudbucker · 25th August 2018, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by Tony

I think you’re right. Which is unfortunate. Republicans understand the game is about power. Democrats remove effective people from power over non-issues. It’s a shame Democrats are stupid enough to think that having a veneer of morality is more important than achieving their political goals.

The Democrats come by their positions because of issues of morality, particularly fairness. The Republicans are like the Inner Party in 1984: power solely for power's sake. And power is defined by the ability to hurt someone. In the Republican's case, brown people and the poor are who they like to hurt.

Ziggurat · 25th August 2018, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by Fudbucker

The Democrats come by their positions because of issues of morality, particularly fairness. The Republicans are like the Inner Party in 1984: power solely for power's sake.

Isn't that always the case, that your side has pure motives and your opponents sordid ones. Which is really the perfect excuse to not find common ground, because what common ground can be found with villains.

This thread is a perfect encapsulation of the hypocrisy and irony of the "skeptic" approach to politics.

Fudbucker · 25th August 2018, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Isn't that always the case, that your side has pure motives and your opponents sordid ones. Which is really the perfect excuse to not find common ground, because what common ground can be found with villains.

This thread is a perfect encapsulation of the hypocrisy and irony of the "skeptic" approach to politics.

Except when your side does have good motives and the other side has degenerated into a racist cult of personality.

Tony · 25th August 2018, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by Fudbucker

The Democrats come by their positions because of issues of morality, particularly fairness.

“Morality”? (warped and shallow as it may be) yes. Fairness? Not really. They are bankrolled by the same corporate kleptocrats that bankroll the republicans.

Quote:

The Republicans are like the Inner Party in 1984: power solely for power's sake. And power is defined by the ability to hurt someone. In the Republican's case, brown people and the poor are who they like to hurt.

That’s my point. It’s also my point that they are winning.

Fudbucker · 25th August 2018, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by Tony

“Morality”? (warped and shallow as it may be) yes. Fairness? Not really. They are bankrolled by the same corporate kleptocrats that bankroll the republicans.

By fairness, I mostly mean civil rights, women's rights, and healthcare coverage. The Democrats have staked out morally principled positions. They are corporate lackeys in other respects, but in those areas I listed, they are doing good work.

Quote:

That’s my point. It’s also my point that they are winning.

I'd rather be Winston than O'brian. In other words, I'd rather lose fighting the good fight, then become like the GOP.

jimbob · 25th August 2018, 03:20 PM

Where can the common ground be with anyone who thinks there are good people supporting this?

LSSBB · 25th August 2018, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by Fudbucker

By fairness, I mostly mean civil rights, women's rights, and healthcare coverage. The Democrats have staked out morally principled positions. They are corporate lackeys in other respects, but in those areas I listed, they are doing good work.

I'd rather be Winston than O'brian. In other words, I'd rather lose fighting the good fight, then become like the GOP.

Not in every state. In at least one state I am very familiar with, the Democrats are driven by perpetuating their machine.

Fudbucker · 25th August 2018, 04:37 PM

Originally Posted by LSSBB

Not in every state. In at least one state I am very familiar with, the Democrats are driven by perpetuating their machine.

I'm talking more about the national level. I will put up with a lot if it means gays don't lose their right to marry, women don't have to get back-alley abortions, SCOTUS upholds union rights, etc.

LSSBB · 25th August 2018, 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by Fudbucker

I'm talking more about the national level. I will put up with a lot if it means gays don't lose their right to marry, women don't have to get back-alley abortions, SCOTUS upholds union rights, etc.

Would you put up with a lying, misogynistic, extremely narcissitic president to get those things?

Delvo · 25th August 2018, 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by Fudbucker

I'd rather lose fighting the good fight, then become like the GOP.

Why not just pick one instead of doing first one and then the other?

kellyb · 25th August 2018, 08:25 PM

Originally Posted by LSSBB

Would you put up with a lying, misogynistic, extremely narcissitic president to get those things?

I don't think I'd vote for someone like that, because I wouldn't trust them to really intend to try their best to implement the policies they claim to want to implement.

Fudbucker · 25th August 2018, 09:19 PM

Originally Posted by LSSBB

Would you put up with a lying, misogynistic, extremely narcissitic president to get those things?

No. I would force the person to resign and let the VP take over. Why the GOP has failed to do this, when they have a perfectly capable VP, is a total mystery to me.

thaiboxerken · 25th August 2018, 09:33 PM

Originally Posted by Fudbucker

No. I would force the person to resign and let the VP take over. Why the GOP has failed to do this, when they have a perfectly capable VP, is a total mystery to me.

Cowardice. They are afraid of Cult 45.

kellyb · 25th August 2018, 09:35 PM

Originally Posted by LSSBB

Would you put up with a lying, misogynistic, extremely narcissitic president to get those things?

More thoughts on this question:

The misogyny would be gross, but nowhere near worth consideration regarding grounds for impeachment, assuming in this scenario I'm a member of congress.

The lying and narcissism would only come into play regarding impeachment if it was so severe it qualified as "pathological" - aka "bat**** insane pathological lying and "personality disordered" narcissism".

I think Bill Clinton was a pretty vile individual overall - lying, misogynistic, and extremely narcissitic.
But he was not bat**** insane.

kellyb · 25th August 2018, 09:42 PM

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

Cowardice. They are afraid of Cult 45.

Part that, part the fact that they're getting their policies pushed through now because of him, with regards to tax cuts designed to make "entitlement reform" an "emergency" in the near future (according to their voodoo/scam economic religion where a ballooning deficit means "impending inflation") and making the rich, richer and the poor, poorer. Also, the "freedom" of industry to pollute, etc.

But yes, they also fear Trump's voter-base cult's wrath, too, when it comes to their own job security.

The Norseman · 25th August 2018, 10:32 PM

Originally Posted by Fudbucker

I'm talking more about the national level. I will put up with a lot if it means gays don't lose their right to marry, women don't have to get back-alley abortions, SCOTUS upholds union rights, etc.

Have you not been paying attention?

The Supreme court has recently declared that Christians can discriminate against gays, anti-abortion people can lie to vulnerable women seeking information, anti-abortion clinics do not have to provide information regarding abortion, and another hit against unions when they falsely/erroneously claimed that union dues were being used to support political parties and thus made it that non-union people were freed from having to pay dues at all, further weakening unions.

That's just the top of my head and only recently too.

jimbob · 26th August 2018, 04:58 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Isn't that always the case, that your side has pure motives and your opponents sordid ones. Which is really the perfect excuse to not find common ground, because what common ground can be found with villains.

This thread is a perfect encapsulation of the hypocrisy and irony of the "skeptic" approach to politics.

What is your opinion on Trump meeting with a prominent QAnon proponent?

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefi...theory-in-oval

Quote:

The Daily Beast first reported on Friday that YouTube conspiracy theorist Lionel Lebron was at the White House for an event and that during his visit he posed for photos with Trump in the Oval Office.

"There simply are no words to explicate this profound honor," Lebron wrote on Instagram while sharing a photo of him and Trump.

That is not exactly helping rational people make bridges to the Trump support

Garrison · 26th August 2018, 05:12 AM

Originally Posted by jimbob

Where can the common ground be with anyone who thinks there are good people supporting this?

So that's just a phony someone mocked up? Please tell me that's the case...

jimbob · 26th August 2018, 05:17 AM

My understanding is that it was genuine.

Helpful as it isn't exactly a dogwhistle, but does use images that the right like to think of as deniable - (Pepe the frog) for example.

22nd August 2018, 11:53 PM	#481
uke2se Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 14,180	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue I'm being dead serious here but what does, in a democracy, "marginalize" mean that isn't just straight up voter fraud/disenfranchisement. Now if your opinion is that one side has committed these acts and you are simply undoing them, fine that's perfectly valid. But there is an air of... sour grapes to the whole "Oh we'll win as soon as the system is fair" argument. You do have to ask yourself, if even as a hypothetical, what happens when you even the playing field... and you still lose? So hypothetically... you get rid of gerrymandering. You get rid of voter ID laws. You create a perfectly fair electoral system over an infinite plane of uniform gravity in a friction-less vacuum and you assume perfectly spherical voters.... and you still lose. What then? It means turn out the vote and make the majority count. I am very much arguing that there's cheating going on on the GOP side. This cheating is systematic and designed to overvalue the votes of some while undervaluing the votes of others. A clear tell of this is the fact that the GOP can't seem to win the popular vote but still wind up with the Presidency. On the state level, gerrymandering has the same effect, as have the various programs of voter disenfranchisement and suppression that have been developed by GOP operatives. Once these efforts to cheat the system are removed, the GOP will never win an election again - at least until they change their vicious policies - thus marginalizing the racist Trumpist vote.
	__________________ Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1

23rd August 2018, 02:06 AM	#482
kellyb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 12,632	Originally Posted by ahhell You can't even ask if some of the gender differences in STEM is not just due to discrimination against women. Originally Posted by ahhell He was publicly shamed and fired. Quote: Yes that guy. What I have read of the memo was pretty badly mischaracterized at the in the media. The memo also included stuff like "the Left tends to deny science concerning biological differences between people (e.g., IQ[8] and sex differences)." What kind of "IQ differences" do some think "the left" wants to deny? See the bigoted unstated assumptions packed into there? This person was not simply asking if some of the gender differences in STEM could be biological.
	__________________ "We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan

23rd August 2018, 02:27 AM	#483
Tommy Jeppesen Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 3,578	Originally Posted by kellyb The memo also included stuff like "the Left tends to deny science concerning biological differences between people (e.g., IQ[8] and sex differences)." What kind of "IQ differences" do some think "the left" wants to deny? See the bigoted unstated assumptions packed into there? This person was not simply asking if some of the gender differences in STEM could be biological. "The Left" is not just rational unbiased and non-bigoted liberals. So it is more accurate to start with some parts of "the Left". As a part of "the Left", there are other parts of "the Left", that I disagree with and I will admit that. I try not to be tribal and biased simply because it is "the Left". Right now "the Right" is worse so it is not a claim of being equal. "The Right" is worse, but that won't stop me from speaking out against parts of "the Left". So you want to concentrate on fighting "the Right"?!! I fight all "flanks" from a position on "the Center(-Left)", because sometimes I am not on "the Left", sometimes I am in "the Center" and a few times I am on "the Right".
	__________________ I don't believe in God and all the rest outside of methodological naturalism But I am a cognitive and ethical relativist/subjectivist and skeptic. #JeSuisAhmed

23rd August 2018, 04:14 AM	#484
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 50,412	Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen "The Left" is not just rational unbiased and non-bigoted liberals. So it is more accurate to start with some parts of "the Left". As a part of "the Left", there are other parts of "the Left", that I disagree with and I will admit that. I try not to be tribal and biased simply because it is "the Left". Right now "the Right" is worse so it is not a claim of being equal. "The Right" is worse, but that won't stop me from speaking out against parts of "the Left". Yes the left refuses to accept the intellectual inferiority of certain races/sexes is clearly one of the biggest marks against it.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

23rd August 2018, 05:31 AM	#485
Tommy Jeppesen Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 3,578	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle Yes the left refuses to accept the intellectual inferiority of certain races/sexes is clearly one of the biggest marks against it. Doubt it!
	__________________ I don't believe in God and all the rest outside of methodological naturalism But I am a cognitive and ethical relativist/subjectivist and skeptic. #JeSuisAhmed

23rd August 2018, 05:40 AM	#486
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 49,523	Originally Posted by acbytesla I KNOW You are definitely right on a few occasions. A better phrasing would be to protect the integrity of our institutions. That just sounds like protecting the integrity of our bodily fluids. Which is legit crazy talk.

23rd August 2018, 08:17 AM	#487
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,190	Originally Posted by theprestige That just sounds like protecting the integrity of our bodily fluids. Which is legit crazy talk. Hmmm. I don't get that. IMV, the institutions don't really matter, nor should be protected if they dont have integrity.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

23rd August 2018, 09:42 AM	#488
LSSBB Devilish Dictionarian Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery Posts: 20,058	Originally Posted by acbytesla Hmmm. I don't get that. IMV, the institutions don't really matter, nor should be protected if they dont have integrity. Hi think he is referring to Sterling Hayden in Dr. Strangelove.
	__________________ "You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles

23rd August 2018, 01:06 PM	#489
tyr_13 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 16,411	Originally Posted by Distracted1 Every other time I can think of from history, the people arguing that they must "protect our institutions" turned out to be the villains. From your posting history, I land pretty much on your "side", but that phrasing makes me a little nervous. Originally Posted by acbytesla I KNOW You are definitely right on a few occasions. A better phrasing would be to protect the integrity of our institutions. I chose that wording to attempt to have it resonate with conservatives actually. That it elicits trepidation from non-conservatives gives a kind of appropriate insight into some of the difficulties. You're right that it has historically been employed as an appeal to tradition fallacy and to uphold abhorrent practices such as slavery. But if it isn't being used in that fashion (the institutes are actually worth preserving on their merits, not simply because they've been around) then the idea isn't inherently negative. Representative democracy, apolitical civil servants, avoiding even the appearance of conflicts of interest, are all worthwhile concepts that are under attack right now from the GOP, to a degree that's legitimately harmful. Not giving in to their attacks and this tactic is more important than appearing reasonable. Being reasonable is much more important than appearing it. Where genuine common ground can be found, great, but them calling something 'common ground' does not make it so. The GOP, as a whole and especially the leadership will the full support of 90% of their base, are not arguing nor behaving in good faith. Even to each other, their deals and promises are currently worthless. It is time for them to search for the common ground and convince everyone else.
	__________________ Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong

23rd August 2018, 01:12 PM	#490
LSSBB Devilish Dictionarian Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery Posts: 20,058	Originally Posted by tyr_13 I chose that wording to attempt to have it resonate with conservatives actually. That it elicits trepidation from non-conservatives gives a kind of appropriate insight into some of the difficulties. You're right that it has historically been employed as an appeal to tradition fallacy and to uphold abhorrent practices such as slavery. But if it isn't being used in that fashion (the institutes are actually worth preserving on their merits, not simply because they've been around) then the idea isn't inherently negative. Representative democracy, apolitical civil servants, avoiding even the appearance of conflicts of interest, are all worthwhile concepts that are under attack right now from the GOP, to a degree that's legitimately harmful. Not giving in to their attacks and this tactic is more important than appearing reasonable. Being reasonable is much more important than appearing it. Where genuine common ground can be found, great, but them calling something 'common ground' does not make it so. The GOP, as a whole and especially the leadership will the full support of 90% of their base, are not arguing nor behaving in good faith. Even to each other, their deals and promises are currently worthless. It is time for them to search for the common ground and convince everyone else. I see, you were assuming GOP "conservatives" were really conservative, and not reactionary.
	__________________ "You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles

23rd August 2018, 08:15 PM	#491
The Norseman Meandering fecklessly Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 8,424	Originally Posted by WilliamSeger For at least the last three decades, right-wing propaganda has been devoted to driving a wedge down the country, hoping to end up with the bigger half and insisting that the only common ground has to be on their side of the divide. We can't get them to change the game; all we can do now is play to win it. No, the rules of the game need to be thrown away. There's no way to win when they literally write those rules. Originally Posted by theprestige That just sounds like protecting the integrity of our bodily fluids. Which is legit crazy talk. I thought you hated analogies and decried their use. What do bodily fluids have anything to do with anything?

23rd August 2018, 08:26 PM	#492
LSSBB Devilish Dictionarian Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery Posts: 20,058	Originally Posted by The Norseman No, the rules of the game need to be thrown away. There's no way to win when they literally write those rules. I thought you hated analogies and decried their use. What do bodily fluids have anything to do with anything? What is this younger generation coming to? Have classics such as Dr. Strangelove been relegated to the dustbin of history?
	__________________ "You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles

23rd August 2018, 08:34 PM	#493
Mike! Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Respect it! Join Date: May 2010 Location: Ponylandistan! Where the bacon grows on trees! Can it get any better than that? I submit it can not! Posts: 40,178	Originally Posted by LSSBB What is this younger generation coming to? Have classics such as Dr. Strangelove been relegated to the dustbin of history? Can we get an amen, brother!
	__________________ "Never judge a man until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes... Because then it won't really matter, you’ll be a mile away and have his shoes."

23rd August 2018, 08:41 PM	#494
beachnut Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Dog House Posts: 25,831	Common ground? lol, trump supporters (aka the cult) have no clue trump lies orders of magnitude more than any president in history : and they have no clue what order of magnitudes means until they look it up - just like trump would but he has no clue how to look it up. Not to mention, oops, the biggest name calling president in history, and the president who has insulted the most people/places and things in history. Common ground, there has to be critical thinking skills to have common ground, the trump cult has none.
	__________________ "Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen" - Albert Einstein "... education as the means of developing our greatest abilities" - JFK https://folding.stanford.edu/ fold with your computer - join team 13232

23rd August 2018, 09:01 PM	#495
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 49,523	Originally Posted by LSSBB What is this younger generation coming to? Have classics such as Dr. Strangelove been relegated to the dustbin of history? Right? People getting upset because "protect our institutions" sounds too fascist. But "protect the integrity of our institutions" doesn't sound obviously crazy?

23rd August 2018, 09:25 PM	#496
The Norseman Meandering fecklessly Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 8,424	Originally Posted by LSSBB What is this younger generation coming to? Have classics such as Dr. Strangelove been relegated to the dustbin of history? Mea culpa. One of the classics I have not seen. Quote marks would have helped though.

25th August 2018, 07:47 AM	#497
Tony Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 15,408	Originally Posted by Lurch A Democratic President behaving as a national embarrassment on the world stage (sucking up to Putin at Helsinki, caging children, kowtowing to Kim, etc., etc., etc.) would suffer serious pushback from his Party and voters. But with Trump's supporters it's "America, **** yeah!" The Dems ousted a Senator of theirs based on a single (adult) person's claims of sexual impropriety, but the Repubs elect "Grab 'em by the pussy!" Trump while he was also standing accused by more than a dozen women, and they tried to elect another creep for Senator accused of molesting teens. Indeed. Where's the common ground? I think you’re right. Which is unfortunate. Republicans understand the game is about power. Democrats remove effective people from power over non-issues. It’s a shame Democrats are stupid enough to think that having a veneer of morality is more important than achieving their political goals.
	__________________ It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Mark Twain Last edited by Tony; 25th August 2018 at 08:42 AM.

25th August 2018, 12:24 PM	#498
Fudbucker Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 8,537	Originally Posted by Tony I think you’re right. Which is unfortunate. Republicans understand the game is about power. Democrats remove effective people from power over non-issues. It’s a shame Democrats are stupid enough to think that having a veneer of morality is more important than achieving their political goals. The Democrats come by their positions because of issues of morality, particularly fairness. The Republicans are like the Inner Party in 1984: power solely for power's sake. And power is defined by the ability to hurt someone. In the Republican's case, brown people and the poor are who they like to hurt.
Fudbucker Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 8,537	Last edited by Fudbucker; 25th August 2018 at 12:26 PM.

25th August 2018, 01:07 PM	#499
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 48,282	Originally Posted by Fudbucker The Democrats come by their positions because of issues of morality, particularly fairness. The Republicans are like the Inner Party in 1984: power solely for power's sake. Isn't that always the case, that your side has pure motives and your opponents sordid ones. Which is really the perfect excuse to not find common ground, because what common ground can be found with villains. This thread is a perfect encapsulation of the hypocrisy and irony of the "skeptic" approach to politics.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

25th August 2018, 01:20 PM	#500
Fudbucker Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 8,537	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Isn't that always the case, that your side has pure motives and your opponents sordid ones. Which is really the perfect excuse to not find common ground, because what common ground can be found with villains. This thread is a perfect encapsulation of the hypocrisy and irony of the "skeptic" approach to politics. Except when your side does have good motives and the other side has degenerated into a racist cult of personality.
Fudbucker Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 8,537

25th August 2018, 02:58 PM	#501
Tony Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 15,408	Originally Posted by Fudbucker The Democrats come by their positions because of issues of morality, particularly fairness. “Morality”? (warped and shallow as it may be) yes. Fairness? Not really. They are bankrolled by the same corporate kleptocrats that bankroll the republicans. Quote: The Republicans are like the Inner Party in 1984: power solely for power's sake. And power is defined by the ability to hurt someone. In the Republican's case, brown people and the poor are who they like to hurt. That’s my point. It’s also my point that they are winning.
	__________________ It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Mark Twain Last edited by Tony; 25th August 2018 at 03:00 PM.

25th August 2018, 03:07 PM	#502
Fudbucker Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 8,537	Originally Posted by Tony “Morality”? (warped and shallow as it may be) yes. Fairness? Not really. They are bankrolled by the same corporate kleptocrats that bankroll the republicans. By fairness, I mostly mean civil rights, women's rights, and healthcare coverage. The Democrats have staked out morally principled positions. They are corporate lackeys in other respects, but in those areas I listed, they are doing good work. Quote: That’s my point. It’s also my point that they are winning. I'd rather be Winston than O'brian. In other words, I'd rather lose fighting the good fight, then become like the GOP.
Fudbucker Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 8,537

25th August 2018, 03:20 PM	#503
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 22,777	Where can the common ground be with anyone who thinks there are good people supporting this?
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

25th August 2018, 04:01 PM	#504
LSSBB Devilish Dictionarian Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery Posts: 20,058	Originally Posted by Fudbucker By fairness, I mostly mean civil rights, women's rights, and healthcare coverage. The Democrats have staked out morally principled positions. They are corporate lackeys in other respects, but in those areas I listed, they are doing good work. I'd rather be Winston than O'brian. In other words, I'd rather lose fighting the good fight, then become like the GOP. Not in every state. In at least one state I am very familiar with, the Democrats are driven by perpetuating their machine.
	__________________ "You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles

25th August 2018, 04:37 PM	#505
Fudbucker Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 8,537	Originally Posted by LSSBB Not in every state. In at least one state I am very familiar with, the Democrats are driven by perpetuating their machine. I'm talking more about the national level. I will put up with a lot if it means gays don't lose their right to marry, women don't have to get back-alley abortions, SCOTUS upholds union rights, etc.
Fudbucker Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 8,537

25th August 2018, 05:41 PM	#506
LSSBB Devilish Dictionarian Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery Posts: 20,058	Originally Posted by Fudbucker I'm talking more about the national level. I will put up with a lot if it means gays don't lose their right to marry, women don't have to get back-alley abortions, SCOTUS upholds union rights, etc. Would you put up with a lying, misogynistic, extremely narcissitic president to get those things?
	__________________ "You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles

25th August 2018, 07:54 PM	#507
Delvo Дэлво Δελϝο דֶלְבֹֿ देल्वो Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: North Tonawanda, NY Posts: 9,281	Originally Posted by Fudbucker I'd rather lose fighting the good fight, then become like the GOP. Why not just pick one instead of doing first one and then the other?

25th August 2018, 08:25 PM	#508
kellyb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 12,632	Originally Posted by LSSBB Would you put up with a lying, misogynistic, extremely narcissitic president to get those things? I don't think I'd vote for someone like that, because I wouldn't trust them to really intend to try their best to implement the policies they claim to want to implement.
	__________________ "We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan Last edited by kellyb; 25th August 2018 at 09:27 PM.

25th August 2018, 09:19 PM	#509
Fudbucker Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 8,537	Originally Posted by LSSBB Would you put up with a lying, misogynistic, extremely narcissitic president to get those things? No. I would force the person to resign and let the VP take over. Why the GOP has failed to do this, when they have a perfectly capable VP, is a total mystery to me.
Fudbucker Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 8,537

25th August 2018, 09:33 PM	#510
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 31,706	Originally Posted by Fudbucker No. I would force the person to resign and let the VP take over. Why the GOP has failed to do this, when they have a perfectly capable VP, is a total mystery to me. Cowardice. They are afraid of Cult 45.
	__________________ 1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.

25th August 2018, 09:35 PM	#511
kellyb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 12,632	Originally Posted by LSSBB Would you put up with a lying, misogynistic, extremely narcissitic president to get those things? More thoughts on this question: The misogyny would be gross, but nowhere near worth consideration regarding grounds for impeachment, assuming in this scenario I'm a member of congress. The lying and narcissism would only come into play regarding impeachment if it was so severe it qualified as "pathological" - aka "bat** insane pathological lying and "personality disordered" narcissism". I think Bill Clinton was a pretty vile individual overall - lying, misogynistic, and extremely narcissitic. But he was not bat** insane.
	__________________ "We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan Last edited by kellyb; 25th August 2018 at 09:44 PM.

25th August 2018, 09:42 PM	#512
kellyb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 12,632	Originally Posted by thaiboxerken Cowardice. They are afraid of Cult 45. Part that, part the fact that they're getting their policies pushed through now because of him, with regards to tax cuts designed to make "entitlement reform" an "emergency" in the near future (according to their voodoo/scam economic religion where a ballooning deficit means "impending inflation") and making the rich, richer and the poor, poorer. Also, the "freedom" of industry to pollute, etc. But yes, they also fear Trump's voter-base cult's wrath, too, when it comes to their own job security.
	__________________ "We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan Last edited by kellyb; 25th August 2018 at 09:45 PM.

25th August 2018, 10:32 PM	#513
The Norseman Meandering fecklessly Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 8,424	Originally Posted by Fudbucker I'm talking more about the national level. I will put up with a lot if it means gays don't lose their right to marry, women don't have to get back-alley abortions, SCOTUS upholds union rights, etc. Have you not been paying attention? The Supreme court has recently declared that Christians can discriminate against gays, anti-abortion people can lie to vulnerable women seeking information, anti-abortion clinics do not have to provide information regarding abortion, and another hit against unions when they falsely/erroneously claimed that union dues were being used to support political parties and thus made it that non-union people were freed from having to pay dues at all, further weakening unions. That's just the top of my head and only recently too.

26th August 2018, 04:58 AM	#514
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 22,777	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Isn't that always the case, that your side has pure motives and your opponents sordid ones. Which is really the perfect excuse to not find common ground, because what common ground can be found with villains. This thread is a perfect encapsulation of the hypocrisy and irony of the "skeptic" approach to politics. What is your opinion on Trump meeting with a prominent QAnon proponent? http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefi...theory-in-oval Quote: The Daily Beast first reported on Friday that YouTube conspiracy theorist Lionel Lebron was at the White House for an event and that during his visit he posed for photos with Trump in the Oval Office. "There simply are no words to explicate this profound honor," Lebron wrote on Instagram while sharing a photo of him and Trump. That is not exactly helping rational people make bridges to the Trump support
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

26th August 2018, 05:12 AM	#515
Garrison Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: UK Posts: 5,520	Originally Posted by jimbob Where can the common ground be with anyone who thinks there are good people supporting this? So that's just a phony someone mocked up? Please tell me that's the case...
	__________________ So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/ And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX