The De-Trumpification of America -- life after the Trump revolution

[trustbutverify]

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

I think it would be more appropriate to say that we shouldn't continue the circus. Let him be mostly forgotten. I suppose it's unrealistic, but what I would love to see is a deep investigation into potential tax or other financial crimes, and to see it reported on page 3.

I've seen this "vapid crowds worship sociopathic populist while decent folk ignore them" movie before. It's not a happy ending.

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by CORed

I don't think Biden will need to tear down any wall. The Mexicans and the elements will take care of that.

I don't think either will happen. It's easier to go under, over, or through the walls than to tear them down. Since the walls are built of steel/concrete, it will take decades or longer for the elements to wear them down. More likely, crappy government construction would bring them down sooner.

[Lurch]

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

I agree with this broadly, but it's important to point out that this coming fascism will be enabled by milquetoast liberalism that refuses to deal with the real and immediate crisis that is creating an atmosphere of extreme desperation that is necessary for fascism to thrive.

As much as Trump was a reaction to failed promises of the Obama presidency, the next fascist will likely be a reaction to the effete technocratic liberalism on offer from the Biden administration. Fascists lie and engage in conspiratorial thinking, but there is absolutely a core of truth beneath all the nonsense to fuel the sense of grievance. The elites do detest ordinary Americans, the politicians are totally out of touch and don't care for our suffering, and nothing is going to be done to change that until they are removed from the levers of power.

For the fascists, that means seizing power and carving out a small position of comfort for the "real Americans" by crushing their political enemies and brutally exploiting and oppressing undesirable populations.

it would be nice if there were a response to these real grievances besides do-nothing neoliberalism and overt fascism, but I'm not really seeing much on offer on the national level.

Brunching our way to doom!

You point out the "do nothing" liberals/Dems, without reference to the conservative/Repub obstruction that the latter then use to say how the former "do nothing." McConnell made it his mission to become the Grim Reaper to Obama, and likely will be the stick in the spokes for Biden as well (unless the GA run-off turns out a miracle.) A cute play, this causing the opposition to be checked AND convincing people it's their own ineptitude.

[Meadmaker]

Originally Posted by trustbutverify

I've seen this "vapid crowds worship sociopathic populist while decent folk ignore them" movie before. It's not a happy ending.

I see what you mean.



I suppose hanging without a trial is right out?

Actually, the point of my page 3 comment would be that his post-White House legal troubles wouldn't be considered newsworthy by enough people to warrant coverage, so no vapid crowds, but it is somewhat unrealistic to expect. If he has to be newsworthy, then, let if be for legal troubles and property seizures. For my part, I would prefer being able to ignore him.

[trustbutverify]

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

I see what you mean.



I suppose hanging without a trial is right out?

Actually, the point of my page 3 comment would be that his post-White House legal troubles wouldn't be considered newsworthy by enough people to warrant coverage, so no vapid crowds, but it is somewhat unrealistic to expect. If he has to be newsworthy, then, let if be for legal troubles and property seizures. For my part, I would prefer being able to ignore him.

I'd love to ignore this cult and its filthy, deranged leader. But that might turn out to be a little dangerous.

[Meadmaker]

Originally Posted by trustbutverify

I'd love to ignore this cult and its filthy, deranged leader. But that might turn out to be a little dangerous.

It's the cult that's dangerous. Someone is going to see what happened in the last four years and decide there's a whole group waiting to be picked up. The next one won't be as childish, as personally repugnant, as out of touch with reality, as Donald Trump.

I have no idea how this plays out, and whether Trump plays an active role in it. i can't see him actually running, successfully anyway, in 2024, but someone will pick up that banner. And...I didn't see him running successfully in 2016, and I didn't see him making a close contest of it this year. Heck, in March, as it became obvious what a disaster his pandemic reaction was, I had fantasies about the Republicans dumping him as a candidate. So, political prognostication is probably not a good career choice for me.

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

It's the cult that's dangerous. Someone is going to see what happened in the last four years and decide there's a whole group waiting to be picked up. The next one won't be as childish, as personally repugnant, as out of touch with reality, as Donald Trump.

I have no idea how this plays out, and whether Trump plays an active role in it. i can't see him actually running, successfully anyway, in 2024, but someone will pick up that banner. And...I didn't see him running successfully in 2016, and I didn't see him making a close contest of it this year. Heck, in March, as it became obvious what a disaster his pandemic reaction was, I had fantasies about the Republicans dumping him as a candidate. So, political prognostication is probably not a good career choice for me.

Don't feel bad. Neither did most people who failed to realize just how many lunatics there are in this country. Thank goodness a lot of them were only suffering from temporary insanity.

[uke2se]

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Don't feel bad. Neither did most people who failed to realize just how many lunatics there are in this country. Thank goodness a lot of them were only suffering from temporary insanity.

I doubt their insanity was temporary. Trump gained votes from 2016 to 2020. Biden won because Democrats weren't (too) complacent this time around.

[SuburbanTurkey]

Originally Posted by Lurch

You point out the "do nothing" liberals/Dems, without reference to the conservative/Repub obstruction that the latter then use to say how the former "do nothing." McConnell made it his mission to become the Grim Reaper to Obama, and likely will be the stick in the spokes for Biden as well (unless the GA run-off turns out a miracle.) A cute play, this causing the opposition to be checked AND convincing people it's their own ineptitude.

apologies. I take it as granted for most people in such a discussion that mainstream conservatives are willing enablers of fascism.

If I have more criticism for milquetoast liberals, it's because I think they are sincere in their opposition to fascism and am frustrated by their counterproductive approaches to preventing it. I've already written off conservatives as willing enablers, but I should be clear that they are worthy of much more scorn and blame.

I just don't think there's much point in trying to criticize these conservatives that are so willing to boost fascists so long as they can protect their own power. They are lost.

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by uke2se

I doubt their insanity was temporary. Trump gained votes from 2016 to 2020. Biden won because Democrats weren't (too) complacent this time around.

I'm talking about the people who voted for Trump in 2016 but did not in 2020. They regained their sanity. The votes he gained in 2020 were from new voters who didn't bother to vote in 2016 or who came of age in the intervening years. They were always nuts.

[Stacyhs]

As of now, the success of the "de-Trumpification of America" looks bleak if we go by the large minority of idiots who literally buy into his "Stop the Steal" lie that are sending him money even now. They are so stupid that they either don't realize their money isn't actually being used to 'Fight the Steal' or they don't care. Any even half-way intelligent person would have seen by now what a monster he, how he is undermining and harming the very foundations our democracy, how he has caused the deaths of thousands of Americans even if they may agree with his politics. But no, they continue to not only to support him, but to idolize him. That is just sheer stupidity on a massive scale.

[The Great Zaganza]

Supporting Trump all the way off the cliff is less painful than reconciling one's cognitive bias with the fact that the never-Trumpers were right, all along.

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

Supporting Trump all the way off the cliff is less painful than reconciling one's cognitive bias with the fact that the never-Trumpers were right, all along.

Absolutely. People would rather die defending their hill than admit the damn hill was never worth it in the first place.

[Horatius]

Originally Posted by Horatius

One idea, that builds on ideas I've had for many years now, involves moving a whole lot of "work at home" workers out of the big cities and populous states into the small towns that are slowly drying up and dying.

Just bumping this idea from way back when, because I just saw this article:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/05/busin...rnd/index.html

Quote:

For anyone who finds the idea dreamy, Hawaii is offering free round trip tickets to Oahu to out-of-state remote workers who want to live and work there while contributing to the state's economy.
The state launched the temporary residency program, known as "Movers and Shakas," in collaboration with schools and businesses. It's accepting its first group of applicants until December 15.
"Movers and Shakas is a small step towards economic recovery and diversifying our economy," Jason Higa, the group's founder, told CNN.
"The pandemic," he said, "has normalized remote work for the foreseeable future, so we believe this situation presents an opportunity for local residents to return home, and for out of state professionals to experience Hawaii, not as tourists, but as contributing members of our community."

[Minoosh]

I am interested in tipping points, and how they can seem to happen so suddenly. Case in point, gay marriage. Something even Dems were against. And then within a few years people apparently decided en masse that it wasn't a big deal, yeah, gay people can get married. What changed?

So this comes to mind when thinking about de-Trumpification. There are people in the thrall of this man, but is there a chance that their mass worship will one day fall away, and like a miracle, it will just disappear?

Would it help at all if people who disagree start talking with each other? By this I mostly mean white people, because other demographics aren't so polarized. I can see demonizing 15 percent or so "deplorable" but this is almost half the country we're talking about. Normal people in most circumstances except IMO they have fallen into a mass delusion. If people don't keep telling them they're deluded, is there a chance they'll work it out for themselves?

[Norman Alexander]

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Absolutely. People would rather die defending their hill than admit the damn hill was never worth it never actually existed and that it was actually a ****-filled ditch in the first place.

They are worse.

[SuburbanTurkey]

It seems pretty clear now that fascist rallies and street violence will continue to be a problem well after Trump has left office. In all likelihood, the Proud Boys will hospitalize or even kill people on Joe's inauguration night in the streets of DC. The cops will continue to turn a blind eye to fascist violence.

It remains to be seen what Biden's administration intends to do about this.

[The Great Zaganza]

The FBI has a very successful track record of destroying organizations through infiltration etc. if there is a political and institutional will to do so.

[Safe-Keeper]

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

It seems pretty clear now that fascist rallies and street violence will continue to be a problem well after Trump has left office. In all likelihood, the Proud Boys will hospitalize or even kill people on Joe's inauguration night in the streets of DC. The cops will continue to turn a blind eye to fascist violence.

It remains to be seen what Biden's administration intends to do about this.

I might be confusing different brands of gravy seal, but I believe the Proud Boys hate the police as much as they hate liberals and freedom.

[SuburbanTurkey]

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper

I might be confusing different brands of gravy seal, but I believe the Proud Boys hate the police as much as they hate liberals and freedom.

They like cops that kick the **** out of their enemies and turn a blind eye to their own violent crimes, and don't like cops that arrest them when they commit violent felonies.

They're fascists. They will happily coordinate with fascist-friendly police departments. They aren't libertarian anarchist types that categorically dislike the police or the state. They just think that the police and the state should be their version of authoritarian.

[Dave Rogers]

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

The FBI has a very successful track record of destroying organizations through infiltration etc.

As has Trump with the Republican Party.

Dave

[Beelzebuddy]

Originally Posted by Minoosh

I am interested in tipping points, and how they can seem to happen so suddenly. Case in point, gay marriage. Something even Dems were against. And then within a few years people apparently decided en masse that it wasn't a big deal, yeah, gay people can get married. What changed?

Modern Family presented gay characters who weren't entirely defined by their sexuality. It seems a little facile just to lay it at the feet of media, but it reached a lot of households which previously only had mincing stereotypes to base their value judgements on.

[gnome]

So what I'm hearing is that the country evolved its views on LGBT marriage positively and we have Sofia Vergara's boobs to thank for it.

[SuburbanTurkey]

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

The FBI has a very successful track record of destroying organizations through infiltration etc. if there is a political and institutional will to do so.

Realistically, it should actually be quite easy to cripple a group like the Proud Boys. They have become quite comfortable over the last few years that they won't have any police interference, so they aren't really taking many steps to protect themselves from potential legal fallout. They routinely and openly discuss their plans to travel and engage in street fighting.

There is a decent number of them that coordinate to travel together to these various towns to engage in street violence. It should be relatively simple to charge most of the leadership and more violent individuals with criminal conspiracy and other organized criminal activity.

Several of the members regularly commit crimes on camera. Amateur antifa activists have documented numerous such examples.

The problem has always been getting local or federal police to actually care. Swinney, for example, was regularly committing felony assault on camera and brandishing firearms unlawfully before there was finally political will to actually arrest his ass. He's now facing some open-and-shut felonies that will likely see him in prison for decades.

Chanlder Pappas regularly open carries firearms at violent protests despite having active domestic violence orders against him that prohibit him to possess firearms.

I suspect that many of these people would still remain active if law enforcement started arresting their fellow fascist comrades, but it would greatly impact their ability to openly engage in organization violence and intimidation. If only the cops weren't on their side, that is.

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy

Modern Family presented gay characters who weren't entirely defined by their sexuality. It seems a little facile just to lay it at the feet of media, but it reached a lot of households which previously only had mincing stereotypes to base their value judgements on.

Agreed. When people begin to see others as real people they can relate to rather than stereotypes, attitudes begin to change. We saw this with Archie Bunker on All in the Family, too, back in the '70's.

Speaking of stereotypes, is anyone as offended by the commercial as I am?

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

[alfaniner]

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Agreed. When people begin to see others as real people they can relate to rather than stereotypes, attitudes begin to change. We saw this with Archie Bunker on All in the Family, too, back in the '70's.

Speaking of stereotypes, is anyone as offended by the commercial as I am?

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

I mentioned that series of commercials in the Commercials 2020 thread, and that one in particular. Theoretically, I suppose tolerance and acceptance is supposed to have come around enough that this sort of commercial should be mildly amusing at best. I wonder how it plays in the South.

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by alfaniner

I mentioned that series of commercials in the Commercials 2020 thread, and that one in particular. Theoretically, I suppose tolerance and acceptance is supposed to have come around enough that this sort of commercial should be mildly amusing at best. I wonder how it plays in the South.

I didn't know there was such a thread. I don't find it even mildly amusing. Maybe I'm just old enough to remember when that kind of stereotype was the norm for ridiculing gay men.

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

I didn't know there was such a thread. I don't find it even mildly amusing. Maybe I'm just old enough to remember when that kind of stereotype was the norm for ridiculing gay men.

I commented in the other thread... which I also didn't know existed.

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

Pretty sure it's not acting. Apparently he's Queer Eye star Jonathan Van Ness. He seems to be pretty flamboyant as a default... and apparently he's a huge gymnastics fan, and Van Ness identifies as non-binary.

I dunno where that resolves. If someone on their own completely embraces a stereotype that we've been conditioned to see as being offensive, is it funny or is it appalling?