The People's Sheriff has man die of dehydration in his Jail - Page 2

Ladewig · 25th September 2016, 09:48 PM

Originally Posted by deadrose

That's the same reason for Keaton Farris' death in the Island County jail in 2015. They turned off the water to his cell after he flooded it. After 12 days of not eating, no medication, and less than 1 1/2 gallons (about 5.5 liters) of water given to him total, he died.

Our jails have become our de facto mental hospitals, and they provide little to no treatment.

The way the system is set up, being able to apply for benefits usually means you're coping well enough that you don't need them, so if you're dealing with a major mental illness and don't have someone willing to devote themselves to helping you negotiate the system, you'll fall through the cracks. This is one of the many reasons so many people are imprisoned in this country.

A frightening and saddening summation. But pointedly accurate.

quadraginta · 26th September 2016, 03:28 AM

Originally Posted by Macgyver1968

I normally avoid threads like this..but this is just messed up. Cops are human, just like the rest of us, and they make mistakes. Sometimes those mistakes cost people their lives. But this is straight up manslaughter.

<snip>

There was no "mistake" here, and it should be charged as murder.

And for more than one person as well.

This was simple murder. Premeditated. By a group.

The only thing I regret is that the culprits can't be sentenced to the same method of execution.

I'm sure the usual clique of cop groupies will twist out some perverted apologetics for this, and normally I would watch their desperate efforts with some amusement.

But not for something like this. There can be no excuse. It was nothing more than murder by prolonged torture. With no benefits beyond the personal satisfaction of the victim's sadistic captors.

quadraginta · 26th September 2016, 03:31 AM

Originally Posted by eeyore1954

Is it proof of anything about the county sheriff?

Is he responsible for the proper operation of his own jail?

If he isn't then who is?

cullennz · 26th September 2016, 03:32 AM

It's like Stanford experiment ugly on steroids

quadraginta · 26th September 2016, 03:39 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate a little more.

It was inevitable that someone would. I am disappointed that it is you. I would have expected one of our more foam-at-the-mouth hyper-conservative cop groupies.

Quote:

The article does not indicate whether these inmates were provided with water.

So here's one possible hypothetical: the prison is old and has periodic plumbing problems. Water to some cells gets turned off while plumbing get fixed. During that time, inmates are provided with drinking water. Everything's fine.

Now, that obviously didn't happen in THIS case, obviously this inmate wasn't given the water that he needed, but it may have happened in other cases. The story does not tell us why water was cut off in these other cases, and it does not tell us what happened while the water was cut off.

At the very least it told us that it had been made known to the guards that the man needed water.

Quote:

These are questions that should be asked and answered, because it's certainly possible that water was cut off for illegitimate reasons, and it's certainly possible that whatever the reason, adequate drinking water may not have been provided.

"Possible"?

"May not have..."?

Good grief.

Quote:

But it's also possible that the answers could demonstrate that there wasn't a pattern of abuse.

The pattern started as soon as any of the jailors were given notice by anyone that the man had no water and needed it.

People don't die overnight from dehydration. It takes days.

That, all by itself, was a "pattern of abuse". Days worth of a pattern.

TheGoldcountry · 26th September 2016, 03:56 AM

Originally Posted by cullennz

It's like Stanford experiment ugly on steroids

My thoughts exactly. There had to be a lot of people closing their eyes during this, it didn't happen in a moment, it took days.

thaiboxerken · 26th September 2016, 04:01 AM

Originally Posted by Ranb

Was that story about death in a jail or about Trump? The reporter managed to include Trump's name three times.

Ranb

Yes. Deaths like this are sure to be common place in Trump's America.

eeyore1954 · 26th September 2016, 05:21 AM

Originally Posted by quadraginta

Is he responsible for the proper operation of his own jail?

If he isn't then who is?

Yes he is. But one instance like this could happen under any one in his position. But the article I linked to could show this may not have been an isolated incident.

Thermal · 26th September 2016, 06:25 AM

Originally Posted by quadraginta

There was no "mistake" here, and it should be charged as murder.

And for more than one person as well.

This was simple murder. Premeditated. By a group.

The only thing I regret is that the culprits can't be sentenced to the same method of execution.

I'm sure the usual clique of cop groupies will twist out some perverted apologetics for this, and normally I would watch their desperate efforts with some amusement.

But not for something like this. There can be no excuse. It was nothing more than murder by prolonged torture. With no benefits beyond the personal satisfaction of the victim's sadistic captors.

No fan of cops, just reason. If the water was shut off for disciplinary reasons, such as urinating in a cup and throwing it at the guards, the guards may have been sadistically 'teaching him a lesson', not realizing that the other shift guards were also depriving him of water. Torture, yes, but not necessarily premeditated murder per se. No actual evidence of conspiracy yet.

quadraginta · 26th September 2016, 06:38 AM

Originally Posted by eeyore1954

Yes he is. But one instance like this could happen under any one in his position. But the article I linked to could show this may not have been an isolated incident.

The county jail is his personal fiefdom. If he did not have protocols in place with redundancy sufficient to prevent such an incident then he should have. Nobody else was in a position to.

If he did have such protocols in place and they were either ignored or intentionally violated then he should have had a system that addressed those possibilities.

Remember. This incident could not have happened overnight. It takes days for someone to die from dehydration. Long, slow, painful days.

If his control over the activities in that jail were so dismal as to allow such an occurrence without anyone in his chain of command even bringing the problem up for that length of time then he was at the very least criminally delinquent in his responsibilities. Incarceration involves a custodial responsibility for the welfare of those being detained under his authority.

He has failed that. Dismally. At the cost of someone's life.

Whether it was an isolated incident or not.

Dave Rogers · 26th September 2016, 06:40 AM

Originally Posted by MostlyDead

Torture, yes, but not necessarily premeditated murder per se. No actual evidence of conspiracy yet.

If it's premeditated torture, then it's a felony, which I would think therefore establishes malice aforethought. Alternatively, it can easily be argued that the prison staff displayed reckless indifference to human life. Murder encompasses criminal omissions as well as direct acts, and in this case there is a clear duty to act on the part of the prison staff. I honestly can't see any way that deliberately depriving an imprisoned man of water until he dies of dehydration can fall short of murder.

Dave

quadraginta · 26th September 2016, 06:47 AM

Originally Posted by MostlyDead

No fan of cops, just reason. If the water was shut off for disciplinary reasons, such as urinating in a cup and throwing it at the guards, the guards may have been sadistically 'teaching him a lesson', not realizing that the other shift guards were also depriving him of water.

How could they not realize? After days. With other inmates bringing it to their attention.

Quote:

Torture, yes, but not necessarily premeditated murder per se.

The level of intentional neglect was criminal. He died because of their continued, constant, and willful failure to address the problem.

Quote:

No actual evidence of conspiracy yet.

He spent days dying. Not one shift, or two, or three. That's enough for me to sniff a wardroom full of rats.

Either that or a staff comprised completely of insensate, insensible automatons, which would bring up the question of how they were found to be qualified for the post to begin with.

Which brings us back to the guy who does the hiring.

Thermal · 26th September 2016, 06:50 AM

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

If it's premeditated torture, then it's a felony, which I would think therefore establishes malice aforethought. Alternatively, it can easily be argued that the prison staff displayed reckless indifference to human life. Murder encompasses criminal omissions as well as direct acts, and in this case there is a clear duty to act on the part of the prison staff. I honestly can't see any way that deliberately depriving an imprisoned man of water until he dies of dehydration can fall short of murder.

Dave

I'm not sure how long each guards shift was, locally they work 4-6 hours in the block. If, and this is admittedly speculation, each guard thought that the prisoner was asking for water so he could throw another cup of urine on him, he may just be thinking 'not on my watch', which would be criminal negligence at the very least but not necessarily the more severe premeditated crimes.

quadraginta · 26th September 2016, 06:51 AM

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

If it's premeditated torture, then it's a felony, which I would think therefore establishes malice aforethought. Alternatively, it can easily be argued that the prison staff displayed reckless indifference to human life. Murder encompasses criminal omissions as well as direct acts, and in this case there is a clear duty to act on the part of the prison staff. I honestly can't see any way that deliberately depriving an imprisoned man of water until he dies of dehydration can fall short of murder.

Dave

Exactly.

quadraginta · 26th September 2016, 06:53 AM

Originally Posted by MostlyDead

I'm not sure how long each guards shift was, locally they work 4-6 hours in the block. If, and this is admittedly speculation, each guard thought that the prisoner was asking for water so he could throw another cup of urine on him, he may just be thinking 'not on my watch', which would be criminal negligence at the very least but not necessarily the more severe premeditated crimes.

What kind of shape do you think the guy was in two days before he died?

How about the day before?

Thermal · 26th September 2016, 06:57 AM

Originally Posted by quadraginta

How could they not realize? After days. With other inmates bringing it to their attention.

The level of intentional neglect was criminal. He died because of their continued, constant, and willful failure to address the problem.

He spent days dying. Not one shift, or two, or three. That's enough for me to sniff a wardroom full of rats.

Either that or a staff comprised completely of insensate, insensible automatons, which would bring up the question of how they were found to be qualified for the post to begin with.

Which brings us back to the guy who does the hiring.

I agree, except in the characterization of conspiracy to commit premeditated murder. I see this more as unbridled sadism and criminal neglect, looked at more harshly considering that this was not the first time (2011).

quadraginta · 26th September 2016, 07:12 AM

Originally Posted by MostlyDead

I agree, except in the characterization of conspiracy to commit premeditated murder. I see this more as unbridled sadism and criminal neglect, looked at more harshly considering that this was not the first time (2011).

In the days that went by while this man was slowly and painfully dying there will have been some point when it was unavoidable for them to be aware that it was happening, whether they admitted it to themselves or not.

Past that point their actions were premeditated. If not before.

Thermal · 26th September 2016, 07:21 AM

Originally Posted by quadraginta

In the days that went by while this man was slowly and painfully dying there will have been some point when it was unavoidable for them to be aware that it was happening, whether they admitted it to themselves or not.

Past that point their actions were premeditated. If not before.

Devil's advocate: if the prisoner had often moaned for water in the past, the guards may have thought of it as theatrics, and assumed he was being a pest rather than actually dying. If the guards changing shifts communicate less than we are assuming, it is plausible that they thought they were disciplining rather than torturing. Not likely, but possible. The description of conspiracy for premeditated murder as opposed to torture is my only contention here.

Ladewig · 26th September 2016, 07:27 AM

Originally Posted by quadraginta

What kind of shape do you think the guy was in two days before he died?

How about the day before?

Originally Posted by quadraginta

In the days that went by while this man was slowly and painfully dying there will have been some point when it was unavoidable for them to be aware that it was happening, whether they admitted it to themselves or not.

Past that point their actions were premeditated. If not before.

Exactly.

There must have been at least one daily check on each prisoner. At the very, very minimum, looking into each cell to see if the prisoner is alive. How could anyone not notice that the man was dying? How big of a idiot would one have to be to say that prisoner is faking the symptoms of dying by dehydration and I am not going to fall for it.

And because it happened on the sheriff's watch, then he (at the very minumum) needs to resign. A man died in a cruel and prolonged manner on his watch because of the incompetence, stupidity, and malice of those under his command.

ETA

Originally Posted by MostlyDead

Devil's advocate: if the prisoner had often moaned for water in the past, the guards may have thought of it as theatrics, and assumed he was being a pest rather than actually dying. If the guards changing shifts communicate less than we are assuming, it is plausible that they thought they were disciplining rather than torturing. Not likely, but possible. The description of conspiracy for premeditated murder as opposed to torture is my only contention here.

No, no, and hell no. See previous response above

MORE ETA
If you feloniously torture someone and he dies, it counts as first degree murder

Jules Galen · 26th September 2016, 07:30 AM

It is pretty plain that this was a Thomas' death was a murder conspiracy. Time to root out the evil that murdered him. Time to throw a lot of Guards and Supervisors in prison.

Horatius · 26th September 2016, 07:37 AM

Originally Posted by MostlyDead

Devil's advocate: if the prisoner had often moaned for water in the past, the guards may have thought of it as theatrics, and assumed he was being a pest rather than actually dying. If the guards changing shifts communicate less than we are assuming, it is plausible that they thought they were disciplining rather than torturing. Not likely, but possible. The description of conspiracy for premeditated murder as opposed to torture is my only contention here.

Yeah, except that the exact same thing has happened before in this jail. Did not even one person stop to ask, "Hey guys, are we sure this isn't like what happened the last time, when we all just stupidly assumed someone else was doing their *********** job?"

Ladewig · 26th September 2016, 07:40 AM

Originally Posted by MostlyDead

Devil's advocate: if the prisoner had often moaned for water in the past, the guards may have thought of it as theatrics, and assumed he was being a pest

the reason that should be wholly and firmly dismissed is that someone had previously died of dehydration!

ETA
Already mentioned in previous pist

Ziggurat · 26th September 2016, 07:46 AM

Originally Posted by quadraginta

It was inevitable that someone would. I am disappointed that it is you. I would have expected one of our more foam-at-the-mouth hyper-conservative cop groupies.

That sounds like you think nobody should play Devil's Advocate. I can't agree with that sentiment.

Quote:

"Possible"?

"May not have..."?

Good grief.

Hey, I'm working with what I've got. If I can't make a good case, then maybe there is no good case. But it's harder to conclude that if nobody tries.

Thermal · 26th September 2016, 08:03 AM

Originally Posted by Ladewig

Exactly.

There must have been at least one daily check on each prisoner. At the very, very minimum, looking into each cell to see if the prisoner is alive. How could anyone not notice that the man was dying? How big of a idiot would one have to be to say that prisoner is faking the symptoms of dying by dehydration and I am not going to fall for it.

And because it happened on the sheriff's watch, then he (at the very minumum) needs to resign. A man died in a cruel and prolonged manner on his watch because of the incompetence, stupidity, and malice of those under his command.

ETA

No, no, and hell no. See previous response above

MORE ETA
If you feloniously torture someone and he dies, it counts as first degree murder

Originally Posted by Jules Galen

It is pretty plain that this was a Thomas' death was a murder conspiracy. Time to root out the evil that murdered him. Time to throw a lot of Guards and Supervisors in prison.

Originally Posted by Ladewig

the reason that should be wholly and firmly dismissed is that someone had previously died of dehydration!

ETA
Already mentioned in previous pist

Yes, and according to article below, he was also refusing food prior to his murder'

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crim...icle-1.2798787

Thermal · 26th September 2016, 08:14 AM

If he was bipolar and refusing food, as reported, it is entirely plausible that he was receiving water, dumping it out and throwing it and asking for more. The refusal of food, if true, adds a different interpretation.

Jules Galen · 26th September 2016, 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by MostlyDead

Yes, and according to article below, he was also refusing food prior to his murder'

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crim...icle-1.2798787

Next thing they'll be saying was that Thomas was high on PCP and had a gun while in his jail cell. There will always be some excuse to rationalize the cruelty that led to the man's death.

And don't kid yourself, folks....a lot of LEOs get "stiffies" just thinking about perpetrating this kind of cruelty.

Thermal · 26th September 2016, 08:46 AM

Originally Posted by Jules Galen

Next thing they'll be saying was that Thomas was high on PCP and had a gun while in his jail cell. There will always be some excuse to rationalize the cruelty that led to the man's death.

And don't kid yourself, folks....a lot of LEOs get "stiffies" just thinking about perpetrating this kind of cruelty.

True that. But still not enough evidence to call it murder yet. Criminal negligence for sure, as Thomas having severe psychiatric episodes should have warranted sooner medical attention. Torture, probably under any set of facts. But if he was refusing food, he may not have been drinking water given to him. It is a possibility.

Babbylonian · 26th September 2016, 09:02 AM

Originally Posted by MostlyDead

True that. But still not enough evidence to call it murder yet. Criminal negligence for sure, as Thomas having severe psychiatric episodes should have warranted sooner medical attention. Torture, probably under any set of facts. But if he was refusing food, he may not have been drinking water given to him. It is a possibility.

Which is irrelevant to the guards' guilt since taking him to a hospital was always an option. Beyond that, anyone dying of thirst would be hallucinating and probably raving. In a hospital, he would have been strapped down and given intravenous fluids until he was determined to be competent, at which point he could be allowed to decide whether or not to refuse medical treatment.

Thermal · 26th September 2016, 09:13 AM

Originally Posted by Babbylonian

Which is irrelevant to the guards' guilt since taking him to a hospital was always an option. Beyond that, anyone dying of thirst would be hallucinating and probably raving. In a hospital, he would have been strapped down and given intravenous fluids until he was determined to be competent, at which point he could be allowed to decide whether or not to refuse medical treatment.

Yes. I know. As I said, that would certainly be criminal negligence and probably torture. Just not conspiracy to commit premeditated murder. If the guards were giving Thomas food and water, and he refused them, is it murder?

Quick edit: are you sure the guards didn't report his refusal to eat or possibly drink?
Further possibility: Thomas was given water every time he asked for it. He dumped it and asked for more. When the guards changed shifts, each reported he was receiving water. Impossible?

eeyore1954 · 26th September 2016, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by Jules Galen

Next thing they'll be saying was that Thomas was high on PCP and had a gun while in his jail cell. There will always be some excuse to rationalize the cruelty that led to the man's death.

And don't kid yourself, folks....a lot of LEOs get "stiffies" just thinking about perpetrating this kind of cruelty.

How do you know that. Certainly there must be a few who do enjoy being cruel. I am thinking very few.

Babbylonian · 26th September 2016, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by MostlyDead

Yes. I know. As I said, that would certainly be criminal negligence and probably torture. Just not conspiracy to commit premeditated murder. If the guards were giving Thomas food and water, and he refused them, is it murder?

Unless he was determined to be competent and was on a hunger strike, yes, absolutely. However, we have no evidence that the prisoner was engaged in such a protest and no decent - or even reasonable (to allude to a legal standard) - police or corrections officer would let the prisoner die without being explicitly told not to take the prisoner to a hospital for treatment. Therefore, in the absence of exculpatory evidence to the contrary, someone has committed murder and every guard who took a shift while the prisoner was not being hydrated is an accessory.

Again, this is what hospitals are for.

From good ole Wikipedia:

Quote:

The United States Code of Federal Regulations rule on hunger strikes by prisoners states, "It is the responsibility of the Bureau of Prisons to monitor the health and welfare of individual inmates, and to ensure that procedures are pursued to preserve life." It further provides that when "a medical necessity for immediate treatment of a life or health threatening situation exists, the physician may order that treatment be administered without the consent of the inmate."

From that same article, the World Medical Association (and the American Medical Association agrees):

Quote:

Where a prisoner refuses nourishment and is considered by the physician as capable of forming an unimpaired and rational judgment concerning the consequences of such a voluntary refusal of nourishment, he or she shall not be fed artificially. The decision as to the capacity of the prisoner to form such a judgment should be confirmed by at least one other independent physician. The consequences of the refusal of nourishment shall be explained by the physician to the prisoner.

In other words, police officers and guards don't have the right to make this call, and in the US a physician may go ahead and ignore the prisoner's wishes and "administer treatment," though it would be ethically questionable for the physician to do so. Of course, if murderous police officers decide never to get a physician's opinion...

Dave Rogers · 26th September 2016, 09:33 AM

Originally Posted by MostlyDead

As I said, that would certainly be criminal negligence and probably torture. Just not conspiracy to commit premeditated murder.

It could quite possibly be felony murder - causing death unlawfully while carrying out a criminal act which a reasonable person would have known could result in the death of the victim. As far as I can see Wisconsin felony murder law doesn't specifically list withholding of food and water from a prison inmate, but in common law there is a perfectly reasonable argument to be made that he died as the result of a felony (torture, which might be classified as a form of assault) and was therefore murdered.

Dave

Thermal · 26th September 2016, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by Babbylonian

Unless he was determined to be competent and was on a hunger strike, yes, absolutely. However, we have no evidence that the prisoner was engaged in such a protest and no decent - or even reasonable (to allude to a legal standard) - police or corrections officer would let the prisoner die without being explicitly told not to take the prisoner to a hospital for treatment. Therefore, in the absence of exculpatory evidence to the contrary, someone has committed murder and every guard who took a shift while the prisoner was not being hydrated is an accessory.

Again, this is what hospitals are for.

From good ole Wikipedia:
From that same article, the World Medical Association (and the American Medical Association agrees):
In other words, police officers and guards don't have the right to make this call, and in the US a physician may go ahead and ignore the prisoner's wishes and "administer treatment," though it would be ethically questionable for the physician to do so. Of course, if murderous police officers decide never to get a physician's opinion...

I... uhhh...don't think we are talking about a hunger strike. He is reported to have been waiting psychiatric evaluation. That it wasn't coming quickly enough indicates a systemic failure of the justice system rather than conspiracy to commit premeditated murder. In the hypothetical scenario I suggested, the guards may literally not be aware that he was not drinking the water he had been hypothetically given, assuming Thomas was begging for water, pouring it for instance in the flushless prison toilet, and immediately asking for more. The guards may have been assuming he was being a deliberate nuisance, but actually drinking.

Thermal · 26th September 2016, 09:41 AM

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

It could quite possibly be felony murder - causing death unlawfully while carrying out a criminal act which a reasonable person would have known could result in the death of the victim. As far as I can see Wisconsin felony murder law doesn't specifically list withholding of food and water from a prison inmate, but in common law there is a perfectly reasonable argument to be made that he died as the result of a felony (torture, which might be classified as a form of assault) and was therefore murdered.

Dave

That's a well-reasoned possibility, but I think that 'premeditated' as insisted on by other posters is not warranted. I see no reason to suggest conspiracy to actually cause him to die, as opposed to suffer.

Babbylonian · 26th September 2016, 09:51 AM

Originally Posted by MostlyDead

He is reported to have been waiting psychiatric evaluation. That it wasn't coming quickly enough indicates a systemic failure of the justice system rather than conspiracy to commit premeditated murder.

Wrong. If they knew there was a possible psychiatric condition, that increases their duty to obtain medical treatment for the prisoner and they could check him into a hospital ER anytime, no waiting. An emergency room doctor would run basic labs which would show the problem immediately even in the absence of obvious physical symptoms...and someone dehydrated to a point approaching death would have physical symptoms obvious to a physician.

There is no "systemic failure" here if anyone at any time brought to any guard's attention that a prisoner was in need of water.

Thermal · 26th September 2016, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by Babbylonian

Wrong. If they knew there was a possible psychiatric condition, that increases their duty to obtain medical treatment for the prisoner and they could check him into a hospital ER anytime, no waiting. An emergency room doctor would run basic labs which would show the problem immediately even in the absence of obvious physical symptoms...and someone dehydrated to a point approaching death would have physical symptoms obvious to a physician.

There is no "systemic failure" here if anyone at any time brought to any guard's attention that a prisoner was in need of water.

If they knew? Of course they knew, he was awaiting evaluation. I am asking how you know the guards would know that he wasn't drinking water hypothetically given (poured down waterless toilet or whatever). How do you know his behavior and symptoms weren't being reported uphill, and being handled too slowly, from a systemic failure?

First off, though: you cite Wiki's hunger strike procedures and policies. Are you seriously suggesting that Thomas was having a conscientious hunger strike as opposed to suffering from mental illness?

Babbylonian · 26th September 2016, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by MostlyDead

If they knew? Of course they knew, he was awaiting evaluation. I am asking how you know the guards would know that he wasn't drinking water hypothetically given (poured down waterless toilet or whatever). How do you know his behavior and symptoms weren't being reported uphill, and being handled too slowly, from a systemic failure?

Because it would be irrelevant when it comes to the duty of care. Or do you think it's required to obtain a lot of permissions in order to get a prisoner to a doctor when a prisoner is obviously ill and/or in the process of harming himself?

Beyond that, an order to deny the patient water or ignore pleas for drinking water would be illegal and any guard following such an order would be legally culpable for any consequences. So, if a report was made and nothing happened, that would only increase the number of people legally responsible for the death; it would not make the supervising guards less responsible.

Quote:

First off, though: you cite Wiki's hunger strike procedures and policies. Are you seriously suggesting that Thomas was having a conscientious hunger strike as opposed to suffering from mental illness?

No, what I'm suggesting is that even in the case of a declared hunger strike, physicians have to be involved in determining whether or not the prisoner is competent to make the decision not to take nutrition. In the absence of a declaration, the duty to obtain medical evaluation is unquestionable.

Dave Rogers · 26th September 2016, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by MostlyDead

That's a well-reasoned possibility, but I think that 'premeditated' as insisted on by other posters is not warranted.

You've described it as torture. That implies a premeditated criminal act.

Dave

sadhatter · 26th September 2016, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by quadraginta

There was no "mistake" here, and it should be charged as murder.

And for more than one person as well.

This was simple murder. Premeditated. By a group.

The only thing I regret is that the culprits can't be sentenced to the same method of execution.

I'm sure the usual clique of cop groupies will twist out some perverted apologetics for this, and normally I would watch their desperate efforts with some amusement.

But not for something like this. There can be no excuse. It was nothing more than murder by prolonged torture. With no benefits beyond the personal satisfaction of the victim's sadistic captors.

I'm guessing I would be in that group in your opinion, but I can say without reserve that this was murder and anyone who thinks otherwise is displaying massive bias.

Darat · 26th September 2016, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by eeyore1954

Yes he is. But one instance like this could happen under any one in his position. But the article I linked to could show this may not have been an isolated incident.

I have to disagree, as others have pointed out this could not have been simply one bad egg either deciding to torture the prisoner or deciding to kill the prisoner; this needed the active collusion of many people. Which would indicate that there is fundamental problems with the staffing regime in the jail, which does come down from the top.

25th September 2016, 09:48 PM	#41
Ladewig I lost an avatar bet. Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 28,044	Originally Posted by deadrose That's the same reason for Keaton Farris' death in the Island County jail in 2015. They turned off the water to his cell after he flooded it. After 12 days of not eating, no medication, and less than 1 1/2 gallons (about 5.5 liters) of water given to him total, he died. Our jails have become our de facto mental hospitals, and they provide little to no treatment. The way the system is set up, being able to apply for benefits usually means you're coping well enough that you don't need them, so if you're dealing with a major mental illness and don't have someone willing to devote themselves to helping you negotiate the system, you'll fall through the cracks. This is one of the many reasons so many people are imprisoned in this country. A frightening and saddening summation. But pointedly accurate.
	__________________ I lost an avatar bet to Doghouse Reilly.

26th September 2016, 03:28 AM	#42
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of) Posts: 26,177	Originally Posted by Macgyver1968 I normally avoid threads like this..but this is just messed up. Cops are human, just like the rest of us, and they make mistakes. Sometimes those mistakes cost people their lives. But this is straight up manslaughter. <snip> There was no "mistake" here, and it should be charged as murder. And for more than one person as well. This was simple murder. Premeditated. By a group. The only thing I regret is that the culprits can't be sentenced to the same method of execution. I'm sure the usual clique of cop groupies will twist out some perverted apologetics for this, and normally I would watch their desperate efforts with some amusement. But not for something like this. There can be no excuse. It was nothing more than murder by prolonged torture. With no benefits beyond the personal satisfaction of the victim's sadistic captors.
	__________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."

26th September 2016, 03:31 AM	#43
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of) Posts: 26,177	Originally Posted by eeyore1954 Is it proof of anything about the county sheriff? Is he responsible for the proper operation of his own jail? If he isn't then who is?
	__________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."

26th September 2016, 03:32 AM	#44
cullennz Embarrasingly illiterate Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NZ Posts: 19,832	It's like Stanford experiment ugly on steroids
	__________________ "I mean, you've got the first sort of mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that's a story-book, man," Biden said. 2007 https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna16911044

26th September 2016, 03:39 AM	#45
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of) Posts: 26,177	Originally Posted by Ziggurat I'm going to play Devil's Advocate a little more. It was inevitable that someone would. I am disappointed that it is you. I would have expected one of our more foam-at-the-mouth hyper-conservative cop groupies. Quote: The article does not indicate whether these inmates were provided with water. So here's one possible hypothetical: the prison is old and has periodic plumbing problems. Water to some cells gets turned off while plumbing get fixed. During that time, inmates are provided with drinking water. Everything's fine. Now, that obviously didn't happen in THIS case, obviously this inmate wasn't given the water that he needed, but it may have happened in other cases. The story does not tell us why water was cut off in these other cases, and it does not tell us what happened while the water was cut off. At the very least it told us that it had been made known to the guards that the man needed water. Quote: These are questions that should be asked and answered, because it's certainly possible that water was cut off for illegitimate reasons, and it's certainly possible that whatever the reason, adequate drinking water may not have been provided. "Possible"? "May not have..."? Good grief. Quote: But it's also possible that the answers could demonstrate that there wasn't a pattern of abuse. The pattern started as soon as any of the jailors were given notice by anyone that the man had no water and needed it. People don't die overnight from dehydration. It takes days. That, all by itself, was a "pattern of abuse". Days worth of a pattern.
	__________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."

26th September 2016, 03:56 AM	#46
TheGoldcountry Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 5,893	Originally Posted by cullennz It's like Stanford experiment ugly on steroids My thoughts exactly. There had to be a lot of people closing their eyes during this, it didn't happen in a moment, it took days.
	__________________ I have no idea what you're trying to say, but I'm still pretty sure that you're wrong. -Akhenaten I sometimes think the Bible was inspired by Satan to make God look bad. And then it backfired on Him when He underestimated the stupidity of religious ideologues. -MontagK505

26th September 2016, 04:01 AM	#47
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 31,712	Originally Posted by Ranb Was that story about death in a jail or about Trump? The reporter managed to include Trump's name three times. Ranb Yes. Deaths like this are sure to be common place in Trump's America.
	__________________ 1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.

26th September 2016, 05:21 AM	#48
eeyore1954 Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 6,745	Originally Posted by quadraginta Is he responsible for the proper operation of his own jail? If he isn't then who is? Yes he is. But one instance like this could happen under any one in his position. But the article I linked to could show this may not have been an isolated incident.
eeyore1954 Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 6,745

26th September 2016, 06:25 AM	#49
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 13,542	Originally Posted by quadraginta There was no "mistake" here, and it should be charged as murder. And for more than one person as well. This was simple murder. Premeditated. By a group. The only thing I regret is that the culprits can't be sentenced to the same method of execution. I'm sure the usual clique of cop groupies will twist out some perverted apologetics for this, and normally I would watch their desperate efforts with some amusement. But not for something like this. There can be no excuse. It was nothing more than murder by prolonged torture. With no benefits beyond the personal satisfaction of the victim's sadistic captors. No fan of cops, just reason. If the water was shut off for disciplinary reasons, such as urinating in a cup and throwing it at the guards, the guards may have been sadistically 'teaching him a lesson', not realizing that the other shift guards were also depriving him of water. Torture, yes, but not necessarily premeditated murder per se. No actual evidence of conspiracy yet.

26th September 2016, 06:38 AM	#50
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of) Posts: 26,177	Originally Posted by eeyore1954 Yes he is. But one instance like this could happen under any one in his position. But the article I linked to could show this may not have been an isolated incident. The county jail is his personal fiefdom. If he did not have protocols in place with redundancy sufficient to prevent such an incident then he should have. Nobody else was in a position to. If he did have such protocols in place and they were either ignored or intentionally violated then he should have had a system that addressed those possibilities. Remember. This incident could not have happened overnight. It takes days for someone to die from dehydration. Long, slow, painful days. If his control over the activities in that jail were so dismal as to allow such an occurrence without anyone in his chain of command even bringing the problem up for that length of time then he was at the very least criminally delinquent in his responsibilities. Incarceration involves a custodial responsibility for the welfare of those being detained under his authority. He has failed that. Dismally. At the cost of someone's life. Whether it was an isolated incident or not.
	__________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."

26th September 2016, 06:40 AM	#51
Dave Rogers Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD Posts: 32,368	Originally Posted by MostlyDead Torture, yes, but not necessarily premeditated murder per se. No actual evidence of conspiracy yet. If it's premeditated torture, then it's a felony, which I would think therefore establishes malice aforethought. Alternatively, it can easily be argued that the prison staff displayed reckless indifference to human life. Murder encompasses criminal omissions as well as direct acts, and in this case there is a clear duty to act on the part of the prison staff. I honestly can't see any way that deliberately depriving an imprisoned man of water until he dies of dehydration can fall short of murder. Dave
	__________________ There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021

26th September 2016, 06:47 AM	#52
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of) Posts: 26,177	Originally Posted by MostlyDead No fan of cops, just reason. If the water was shut off for disciplinary reasons, such as urinating in a cup and throwing it at the guards, the guards may have been sadistically 'teaching him a lesson', not realizing that the other shift guards were also depriving him of water. How could they not realize? After days. With other inmates bringing it to their attention. Quote: Torture, yes, but not necessarily premeditated murder per se. The level of intentional neglect was criminal. He died because of their continued, constant, and willful failure to address the problem. Quote: No actual evidence of conspiracy yet. He spent days dying. Not one shift, or two, or three. That's enough for me to sniff a wardroom full of rats. Either that or a staff comprised completely of insensate, insensible automatons, which would bring up the question of how they were found to be qualified for the post to begin with. Which brings us back to the guy who does the hiring.
	__________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation." Last edited by quadraginta; 26th September 2016 at 06:49 AM.

26th September 2016, 06:50 AM	#53
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 13,542	Originally Posted by Dave Rogers If it's premeditated torture, then it's a felony, which I would think therefore establishes malice aforethought. Alternatively, it can easily be argued that the prison staff displayed reckless indifference to human life. Murder encompasses criminal omissions as well as direct acts, and in this case there is a clear duty to act on the part of the prison staff. I honestly can't see any way that deliberately depriving an imprisoned man of water until he dies of dehydration can fall short of murder. Dave I'm not sure how long each guards shift was, locally they work 4-6 hours in the block. If, and this is admittedly speculation, each guard thought that the prisoner was asking for water so he could throw another cup of urine on him, he may just be thinking 'not on my watch', which would be criminal negligence at the very least but not necessarily the more severe premeditated crimes.

26th September 2016, 06:51 AM	#54
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of) Posts: 26,177	Originally Posted by Dave Rogers If it's premeditated torture, then it's a felony, which I would think therefore establishes malice aforethought. Alternatively, it can easily be argued that the prison staff displayed reckless indifference to human life. Murder encompasses criminal omissions as well as direct acts, and in this case there is a clear duty to act on the part of the prison staff. I honestly can't see any way that deliberately depriving an imprisoned man of water until he dies of dehydration can fall short of murder. Dave Exactly.
	__________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."

26th September 2016, 06:53 AM	#55
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of) Posts: 26,177	Originally Posted by MostlyDead I'm not sure how long each guards shift was, locally they work 4-6 hours in the block. If, and this is admittedly speculation, each guard thought that the prisoner was asking for water so he could throw another cup of urine on him, he may just be thinking 'not on my watch', which would be criminal negligence at the very least but not necessarily the more severe premeditated crimes. What kind of shape do you think the guy was in two days before he died? How about the day before?
	__________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."

26th September 2016, 06:57 AM	#56
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 13,542	Originally Posted by quadraginta How could they not realize? After days. With other inmates bringing it to their attention. The level of intentional neglect was criminal. He died because of their continued, constant, and willful failure to address the problem. He spent days dying. Not one shift, or two, or three. That's enough for me to sniff a wardroom full of rats. Either that or a staff comprised completely of insensate, insensible automatons, which would bring up the question of how they were found to be qualified for the post to begin with. Which brings us back to the guy who does the hiring. I agree, except in the characterization of conspiracy to commit premeditated murder. I see this more as unbridled sadism and criminal neglect, looked at more harshly considering that this was not the first time (2011).

26th September 2016, 07:12 AM	#57
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of) Posts: 26,177	Originally Posted by MostlyDead I agree, except in the characterization of conspiracy to commit premeditated murder. I see this more as unbridled sadism and criminal neglect, looked at more harshly considering that this was not the first time (2011). In the days that went by while this man was slowly and painfully dying there will have been some point when it was unavoidable for them to be aware that it was happening, whether they admitted it to themselves or not. Past that point their actions were premeditated. If not before.
	__________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."

26th September 2016, 07:21 AM	#58
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 13,542	Originally Posted by quadraginta In the days that went by while this man was slowly and painfully dying there will have been some point when it was unavoidable for them to be aware that it was happening, whether they admitted it to themselves or not. Past that point their actions were premeditated. If not before. Devil's advocate: if the prisoner had often moaned for water in the past, the guards may have thought of it as theatrics, and assumed he was being a pest rather than actually dying. If the guards changing shifts communicate less than we are assuming, it is plausible that they thought they were disciplining rather than torturing. Not likely, but possible. The description of conspiracy for premeditated murder as opposed to torture is my only contention here.

26th September 2016, 07:27 AM	#59
Ladewig I lost an avatar bet. Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 28,044	Originally Posted by quadraginta What kind of shape do you think the guy was in two days before he died? How about the day before? Originally Posted by quadraginta In the days that went by while this man was slowly and painfully dying there will have been some point when it was unavoidable for them to be aware that it was happening, whether they admitted it to themselves or not. Past that point their actions were premeditated. If not before. Exactly. There must have been at least one daily check on each prisoner. At the very, very minimum, looking into each cell to see if the prisoner is alive. How could anyone not notice that the man was dying? How big of a idiot would one have to be to say that prisoner is faking the symptoms of dying by dehydration and I am not going to fall for it. And because it happened on the sheriff's watch, then he (at the very minumum) needs to resign. A man died in a cruel and prolonged manner on his watch because of the incompetence, stupidity, and malice of those under his command. ETA Originally Posted by MostlyDead Devil's advocate: if the prisoner had often moaned for water in the past, the guards may have thought of it as theatrics, and assumed he was being a pest rather than actually dying. If the guards changing shifts communicate less than we are assuming, it is plausible that they thought they were disciplining rather than torturing. Not likely, but possible. The description of conspiracy for premeditated murder as opposed to torture is my only contention here. No, no, and hell no. See previous response above MORE ETA If you feloniously torture someone and he dies, it counts as first degree murder
	__________________ I lost an avatar bet to Doghouse Reilly. Last edited by Ladewig; 26th September 2016 at 07:34 AM.

26th September 2016, 07:30 AM	#60
Jules Galen Banned Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 3,726	It is pretty plain that this was a Thomas' death was a murder conspiracy. Time to root out the evil that murdered him. Time to throw a lot of Guards and Supervisors in prison.
Jules Galen Banned Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 3,726

26th September 2016, 07:37 AM	#61
Horatius NWO Kitty Wrangler Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 29,032	Originally Posted by MostlyDead Devil's advocate: if the prisoner had often moaned for water in the past, the guards may have thought of it as theatrics, and assumed he was being a pest rather than actually dying. If the guards changing shifts communicate less than we are assuming, it is plausible that they thought they were disciplining rather than torturing. Not likely, but possible. The description of conspiracy for premeditated murder as opposed to torture is my only contention here. Yeah, except that the exact same thing has happened before in this jail. Did not even one person stop to ask, "Hey guys, are we sure this isn't like what happened the last time, when we all just stupidly assumed someone else was doing their *********** job?"
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26th September 2016, 07:40 AM	#62
Ladewig I lost an avatar bet. Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 28,044	Originally Posted by MostlyDead Devil's advocate: if the prisoner had often moaned for water in the past, the guards may have thought of it as theatrics, and assumed he was being a pest the reason that should be wholly and firmly dismissed is that someone had previously died of dehydration! ETA Already mentioned in previous pist
	__________________ I lost an avatar bet to Doghouse Reilly. Last edited by Ladewig; 26th September 2016 at 07:47 AM.

26th September 2016, 07:46 AM	#63
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 48,360	Originally Posted by quadraginta It was inevitable that someone would. I am disappointed that it is you. I would have expected one of our more foam-at-the-mouth hyper-conservative cop groupies. That sounds like you think nobody should play Devil's Advocate. I can't agree with that sentiment. Quote: "Possible"? "May not have..."? Good grief. Hey, I'm working with what I've got. If I can't make a good case, then maybe there is no good case. But it's harder to conclude that if nobody tries.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

26th September 2016, 08:03 AM	#64
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 13,542	Originally Posted by Ladewig Exactly. There must have been at least one daily check on each prisoner. At the very, very minimum, looking into each cell to see if the prisoner is alive. How could anyone not notice that the man was dying? How big of a idiot would one have to be to say that prisoner is faking the symptoms of dying by dehydration and I am not going to fall for it. And because it happened on the sheriff's watch, then he (at the very minumum) needs to resign. A man died in a cruel and prolonged manner on his watch because of the incompetence, stupidity, and malice of those under his command. ETA No, no, and hell no. See previous response above MORE ETA If you feloniously torture someone and he dies, it counts as first degree murder Originally Posted by Jules Galen It is pretty plain that this was a Thomas' death was a murder conspiracy. Time to root out the evil that murdered him. Time to throw a lot of Guards and Supervisors in prison. Originally Posted by Ladewig the reason that should be wholly and firmly dismissed is that someone had previously died of dehydration! ETA Already mentioned in previous pist Yes, and according to article below, he was also refusing food prior to his murder' http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crim...icle-1.2798787

26th September 2016, 08:14 AM	#65
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 13,542	If he was bipolar and refusing food, as reported, it is entirely plausible that he was receiving water, dumping it out and throwing it and asking for more. The refusal of food, if true, adds a different interpretation.

26th September 2016, 08:34 AM	#66
Jules Galen Banned Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 3,726	Originally Posted by MostlyDead Yes, and according to article below, he was also refusing food prior to his murder' http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crim...icle-1.2798787 Next thing they'll be saying was that Thomas was high on PCP and had a gun while in his jail cell. There will always be some excuse to rationalize the cruelty that led to the man's death. And don't kid yourself, folks....a lot of LEOs get "stiffies" just thinking about perpetrating this kind of cruelty.
Jules Galen Banned Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 3,726	Last edited by Jules Galen; 26th September 2016 at 08:39 AM.

26th September 2016, 08:46 AM	#67
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 13,542	Originally Posted by Jules Galen Next thing they'll be saying was that Thomas was high on PCP and had a gun while in his jail cell. There will always be some excuse to rationalize the cruelty that led to the man's death. And don't kid yourself, folks....a lot of LEOs get "stiffies" just thinking about perpetrating this kind of cruelty. True that. But still not enough evidence to call it murder yet. Criminal negligence for sure, as Thomas having severe psychiatric episodes should have warranted sooner medical attention. Torture, probably under any set of facts. But if he was refusing food, he may not have been drinking water given to him. It is a possibility.

26th September 2016, 09:02 AM	#68
Babbylonian Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 13,505	Originally Posted by MostlyDead True that. But still not enough evidence to call it murder yet. Criminal negligence for sure, as Thomas having severe psychiatric episodes should have warranted sooner medical attention. Torture, probably under any set of facts. But if he was refusing food, he may not have been drinking water given to him. It is a possibility. Which is irrelevant to the guards' guilt since taking him to a hospital was always an option. Beyond that, anyone dying of thirst would be hallucinating and probably raving. In a hospital, he would have been strapped down and given intravenous fluids until he was determined to be competent, at which point he could be allowed to decide whether or not to refuse medical treatment.

26th September 2016, 09:13 AM	#69
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 13,542	Originally Posted by Babbylonian Which is irrelevant to the guards' guilt since taking him to a hospital was always an option. Beyond that, anyone dying of thirst would be hallucinating and probably raving. In a hospital, he would have been strapped down and given intravenous fluids until he was determined to be competent, at which point he could be allowed to decide whether or not to refuse medical treatment. Yes. I know. As I said, that would certainly be criminal negligence and probably torture. Just not conspiracy to commit premeditated murder. If the guards were giving Thomas food and water, and he refused them, is it murder? Quick edit: are you sure the guards didn't report his refusal to eat or possibly drink? Further possibility: Thomas was given water every time he asked for it. He dumped it and asked for more. When the guards changed shifts, each reported he was receiving water. Impossible?
	Last edited by Thermal; 26th September 2016 at 09:23 AM.

26th September 2016, 09:18 AM	#70
eeyore1954 Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 6,745	Originally Posted by Jules Galen Next thing they'll be saying was that Thomas was high on PCP and had a gun while in his jail cell. There will always be some excuse to rationalize the cruelty that led to the man's death. And don't kid yourself, folks....a lot of LEOs get "stiffies" just thinking about perpetrating this kind of cruelty. How do you know that. Certainly there must be a few who do enjoy being cruel. I am thinking very few.
eeyore1954 Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 6,745

26th September 2016, 09:26 AM	#71
Babbylonian Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 13,505	Originally Posted by MostlyDead Yes. I know. As I said, that would certainly be criminal negligence and probably torture. Just not conspiracy to commit premeditated murder. If the guards were giving Thomas food and water, and he refused them, is it murder? Unless he was determined to be competent and was on a hunger strike, yes, absolutely. However, we have no evidence that the prisoner was engaged in such a protest and no decent - or even reasonable (to allude to a legal standard) - police or corrections officer would let the prisoner die without being explicitly told not to take the prisoner to a hospital for treatment. Therefore, in the absence of exculpatory evidence to the contrary, someone has committed murder and every guard who took a shift while the prisoner was not being hydrated is an accessory. Again, this is what hospitals are for. From good ole Wikipedia: Quote: The United States Code of Federal Regulations rule on hunger strikes by prisoners states, "It is the responsibility of the Bureau of Prisons to monitor the health and welfare of individual inmates, and to ensure that procedures are pursued to preserve life." It further provides that when "a medical necessity for immediate treatment of a life or health threatening situation exists, the physician may order that treatment be administered without the consent of the inmate." From that same article, the World Medical Association (and the American Medical Association agrees): Quote: Where a prisoner refuses nourishment and is considered by the physician as capable of forming an unimpaired and rational judgment concerning the consequences of such a voluntary refusal of nourishment, he or she shall not be fed artificially. The decision as to the capacity of the prisoner to form such a judgment should be confirmed by at least one other independent physician. The consequences of the refusal of nourishment shall be explained by the physician to the prisoner. In other words, police officers and guards don't have the right to make this call, and in the US a physician may go ahead and ignore the prisoner's wishes and "administer treatment," though it would be ethically questionable for the physician to do so. Of course, if murderous police officers decide never to get a physician's opinion...
	Last edited by Babbylonian; 26th September 2016 at 09:29 AM.

26th September 2016, 09:33 AM	#72
Dave Rogers Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD Posts: 32,368	Originally Posted by MostlyDead As I said, that would certainly be criminal negligence and probably torture. Just not conspiracy to commit premeditated murder. It could quite possibly be felony murder - causing death unlawfully while carrying out a criminal act which a reasonable person would have known could result in the death of the victim. As far as I can see Wisconsin felony murder law doesn't specifically list withholding of food and water from a prison inmate, but in common law there is a perfectly reasonable argument to be made that he died as the result of a felony (torture, which might be classified as a form of assault) and was therefore murdered. Dave
	__________________ There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021

26th September 2016, 09:38 AM	#73
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 13,542	Originally Posted by Babbylonian Unless he was determined to be competent and was on a hunger strike, yes, absolutely. However, we have no evidence that the prisoner was engaged in such a protest and no decent - or even reasonable (to allude to a legal standard) - police or corrections officer would let the prisoner die without being explicitly told not to take the prisoner to a hospital for treatment. Therefore, in the absence of exculpatory evidence to the contrary, someone has committed murder and every guard who took a shift while the prisoner was not being hydrated is an accessory. Again, this is what hospitals are for. From good ole Wikipedia: From that same article, the World Medical Association (and the American Medical Association agrees): In other words, police officers and guards don't have the right to make this call, and in the US a physician may go ahead and ignore the prisoner's wishes and "administer treatment," though it would be ethically questionable for the physician to do so. Of course, if murderous police officers decide never to get a physician's opinion... I... uhhh...don't think we are talking about a hunger strike. He is reported to have been waiting psychiatric evaluation. That it wasn't coming quickly enough indicates a systemic failure of the justice system rather than conspiracy to commit premeditated murder. In the hypothetical scenario I suggested, the guards may literally not be aware that he was not drinking the water he had been hypothetically given, assuming Thomas was begging for water, pouring it for instance in the flushless prison toilet, and immediately asking for more. The guards may have been assuming he was being a deliberate nuisance, but actually drinking.

26th September 2016, 09:41 AM	#74
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 13,542	Originally Posted by Dave Rogers It could quite possibly be felony murder - causing death unlawfully while carrying out a criminal act which a reasonable person would have known could result in the death of the victim. As far as I can see Wisconsin felony murder law doesn't specifically list withholding of food and water from a prison inmate, but in common law there is a perfectly reasonable argument to be made that he died as the result of a felony (torture, which might be classified as a form of assault) and was therefore murdered. Dave That's a well-reasoned possibility, but I think that 'premeditated' as insisted on by other posters is not warranted. I see no reason to suggest conspiracy to actually cause him to die, as opposed to suffer.
	Last edited by Thermal; 26th September 2016 at 09:42 AM.

26th September 2016, 09:51 AM	#75
Babbylonian Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 13,505	Originally Posted by MostlyDead He is reported to have been waiting psychiatric evaluation. That it wasn't coming quickly enough indicates a systemic failure of the justice system rather than conspiracy to commit premeditated murder. Wrong. If they knew there was a possible psychiatric condition, that increases their duty to obtain medical treatment for the prisoner and they could check him into a hospital ER anytime, no waiting. An emergency room doctor would run basic labs which would show the problem immediately even in the absence of obvious physical symptoms...and someone dehydrated to a point approaching death would have physical symptoms obvious to a physician. There is no "systemic failure" here if anyone at any time brought to any guard's attention that a prisoner was in need of water.