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Tags David A Clarke Jr. , jail and prison incidents , Milwaukee incidents , Terrill Thomas , Trump supporters

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Old 29th September 2016, 10:29 AM   #121
Blue Mountain
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
As inmate Berry reported that Thomas was refusing food brought to him, and the family said that Thomas was severely mentally ill and would only ate meals brought by his family, I think it is reasonable to hypothesize that the guards may have been bringing him water, but he was not drinking it. Is this somehow impossible or even implausible to you?
He was apparently begging for water. How does this jive with the thought the guards were supplying it to him?
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Old 29th September 2016, 11:32 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
As inmate Berry reported that Thomas was refusing food brought to him, and the family said that Thomas was severely mentally ill and would only ate meals brought by his family, I think it is reasonable to hypothesize that the guards may have been bringing him water, but he was not drinking it. Is this somehow impossible or even implausible to you?
And why should that matter? He needed medical care and would have been in very clear need of medical care for a long time before he died. Killing the mentally ill is frowned upon by many people these days, no matter how often the police use it as an excuse for why they needed to kill someone.
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Old 29th September 2016, 12:35 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
It's like Stanford experiment ugly on steroids
I think you are right.

To have one inmate die of dehydration is bad, to have two incidents in the same jail in five years is beyond belief. Several people need to go to prison for this - and agree that as it was entirely predictable, it should be murder.

ETA: Should, not meaning it is legally possible in that jurisdiction.
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Old 29th September 2016, 12:36 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I have to disagree, as others have pointed out this could not have been simply one bad egg either deciding to torture the prisoner or deciding to kill the prisoner; this needed the active collusion of many people. Which would indicate that there is fundamental problems with the staffing regime in the jail, which does come down from the top.
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Old 29th September 2016, 06:50 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
As inmate Berry reported that Thomas was refusing food brought to him, and the family said that Thomas was severely mentally ill and would only ate meals brought by his family, I think it is reasonable to hypothesize that the guards may have been bringing him water, but he was not drinking it. Is this somehow impossible or even implausible to you?
It's certainly implausible to me, considering that even if he was refusing all prison-provided food and water, they still had an ethical, moral, and legal obligation to make note and immediately bring in medical attention. Refusal of both food and water, I would imagine, if nothing else, could be considered a suicide attempt, which means that medical or psychiatric attention would be urgently required. Apparently the head-shrinkers were to be called in or he had an upcoming appointment already. But food is one thing when one can survive for around a month or so without. But water is a much more urgent concern; sort of like... oh, I dunno.... air.

I don't know if these questions have already been answered and I don't know if they ever will be made public, but was this water shut off noted in the log? Already that's grounds for an eighth amendment violation, but continuing... it was apparently known he was refusing food, but did they ask every day, for example, if he wanted to eat? If they didn't, in my opinion, they should have asked and noted it every day in the log. After the water was shut off, was it logged that the guards asked him if he wanted potable water? Was it logged that he was offered water (on every shift) and he refused?

Crap, years ago I worked as a security guard and one of the first things they taught me was CYA. That was my main job -- to observe and WRITE IT DOWN. I thought that prison guards did similarly, but I don't know.

Anyway, I don't really care if murder is applicable in this case. I think that there are enough felonies that cover the reprehensible actions taken (or not taken) that justice can well be served to everyone.
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Old 29th September 2016, 07:17 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
It's certainly implausible to me, considering that even if he was refusing all prison-provided food and water, they still had an ethical, moral, and legal obligation to make note and immediately bring in medical attention. Refusal of both food and water, I would imagine, if nothing else, could be considered a suicide attempt, which means that medical or psychiatric attention would be urgently required. Apparently the head-shrinkers were to be called in or he had an upcoming appointment already. But food is one thing when one can survive for around a month or so without. But water is a much more urgent concern; sort of like... oh, I dunno.... air.

I don't know if these questions have already been answered and I don't know if they ever will be made public, but was this water shut off noted in the log? Already that's grounds for an eighth amendment violation, but continuing... it was apparently known he was refusing food, but did they ask every day, for example, if he wanted to eat? If they didn't, in my opinion, they should have asked and noted it every day in the log. After the water was shut off, was it logged that the guards asked him if he wanted potable water? Was it logged that he was offered water (on every shift) and he refused?

Crap, years ago I worked as a security guard and one of the first things they taught me was CYA. That was my main job -- to observe and WRITE IT DOWN. I thought that prison guards did similarly, but I don't know.

Anyway, I don't really care if murder is applicable in this case. I think that there are enough felonies that cover the reprehensible actions taken (or not taken) that justice can well be served to everyone.
All good points, but we really don't have a lot to go on here. The report of the water being shut off came from inmate Berry, who said that was what a guard told him. Not the strongest evidence right out of the gate. The prison released a statement saying they are making no comments during the investigation. Based on the lack of ample evidence, I would say we are all jumping the gun quite a bit. (which is what I started out arguing). Still don't know if in fact the guards did report eating/drinking issues, and for that matter if a doctor did see him while waiting for the psych eval.

The most damning things are Thomas dying from profound dehydration for any reason, and that it is not the first time (really stunning). I agree that whether or not it is specifically murder is unimportant, but I am hard-pressed to guess how they will duck a charge of at least reckless homicide. Hoping the prosecutor in Milwaukee is aggressive and thorough.
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Old 29th September 2016, 07:30 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And why should that matter? He needed medical care and would have been in very clear need of medical care for a long time before he died. Killing the mentally ill is frowned upon by many people these days, no matter how often the police use it as an excuse for why they needed to kill someone.
I didn't know the police used mental illness as an excuse for needing to kill someone, thank you. It was noted repeatedly above that inmate Berry said that he could see Thomas was getting weaker, and one day he just lay down. With such little evidence, I don't know how 'very clear' it was that he needed care, or if he did not get any. The most solid evidence is the coroner's ruling, the tiny bit of testimony from inmate Berry is hardly enough to drop the gavel here. Something obviously went horribly wrong, but I don't see nearly enough to determine specifically what. You do, I take it?
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Old 29th September 2016, 07:39 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
He was apparently begging for water. How does this jive with the thought the guards were supplying it to him?

Addressed earlier. Most of the information being reported about what happened came from a few sentences from inmate Berry, including the 'begging for water' report (oddly, Berry didn't say that the guards weren't bringing him any, this is just being assumed by posters). Since Thomas was refusing food and his family said that he would only eat meals they brought to him (he was severely mentally ill), I hypothesized that the guards may have been giving him water but he was pouring it out or spitting it up into his toilet. This secondary hypothesis jibes with the available evidence, without assuming the guards are murdering sociopaths.
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Old 29th September 2016, 07:49 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Addressed earlier. Most of the information being reported about what happened came from a few sentences from inmate Berry, including the 'begging for water' report (oddly, Berry didn't say that the guards weren't bringing him any, this is just being assumed by posters). Since Thomas was refusing food and his family said that he would only eat meals they brought to him (he was severely mentally ill), I hypothesized that the guards may have been giving him water but he was pouring it out or spitting it up into his toilet. This secondary hypothesis jibes with the available evidence, without assuming the guards are murdering sociopaths.
People in hunger/water strikes get force fed all the time.

To be honest I severely doubt someone nearly dead from water would be in a state to piss around.
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Old 29th September 2016, 07:50 PM   #130
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Pardon the pun
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Old 29th September 2016, 08:08 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Pardon the pun

Please don't pardon, t'was a good 'un.

I agree that something went catastrophically wrong, simply because he died of dehydration while in prison care, I just don't know exactly what. Severe mental illness, as reported, might cause behaviors that would be different those of a conscientious hunger striker, no? Is it possible that while in a manic state, he was not showing the signs that a normal person would show?
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Old 30th September 2016, 05:59 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
<snip>

The report of the water being shut off came from inmate Berry, who said that was what a guard told him. Not the strongest evidence right out of the gate.

<snip>
Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
<snip>

It was noted repeatedly above that inmate Berry said that he could see Thomas was getting weaker, and one day he just lay down. With such little evidence, I don't know how 'very clear' it was that he needed care, or if he did not get any.

<snip>

In one breath you discount the reliability or utility of the inmate's comments, and in the next you use it as evidence.

Not very consistent.

The end stages of fatal dehydration are not going to be subtle. Someone might be able to mimic the behavior, but not the physical symptoms. It would have been eminently clear that something was seriously wrong.

The only way that this could have taken place is for multiple employees to willfully disregard any and all of the evidence which was right before their eyes.

Whether they understood what those symptoms were a result of or not is irrelevant. They are culpable for his death.

Their delinquency, as has been shown, is a felony in that state.

I can only hope that they find themselves incarcerated somewhere for a suitably extended length of time. One long enough to let them have plenty of opportunity to contemplate the likelihood of receiving the same quality of care.
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Old 30th September 2016, 08:42 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
In one breath you discount the reliability or utility of the inmate's comments, and in the next you use it as evidence.

Not very consistent.
Way, way off here. I do not discount Berry's report anywhere, at any time. I opine that it is not exactly the strongest, and only refering to one part, that the water in his cell was shut off, which Berry got second hand. In my state, it may be dismissed as hearsay, because Berry claims the guard told him these facts. So I am giving it consideration, but it's no smoking gun. Serious question: do you equate 'not exactly the strongest evidence' as 'discounting'? I'm sure your gotcha-game is better than that.

Quote:
The end stages of fatal dehydration are not going to be subtle. Someone might be able to mimic the behavior, but not the physical symptoms. It would have been eminently clear that something was seriously wrong.
Not according to Berry. Quoted earlier as saying 'I could see he was getting weaker, and one day he just lay down'.

Quote:
The only way that this could have taken place is for multiple employees to willfully disregard any and all of the evidence which was right before their eyes.

Whether they understood what those symptoms were a result of or not is irrelevant. They are culpable for his death.

Their delinquency, as has been shown, is a felony in that state.
Only way, huh? Think this through: suppose the guards had duly reported his condition. Suppose that, per law and policy, he was seen by the prison doctor (no hard evidence to dismiss this as yet). The doctor negligently signs off that he is OK. It is plausible that only a negligent doctor is at fault.

Quote:
I can only hope that they find themselves incarcerated somewhere for a suitably extended length of time. One long enough to let them have plenty of opportunity to contemplate the likelihood of receiving the same quality of care.
I hear you. As the coroner found, Thomas' death was a homicide, at the hands of another. More evidence is needed to determine who 'another 'is.
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Old 12th March 2017, 04:31 PM   #134
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Milwaukee inmate's family says dehydration death was torture

Quote:
A man who died of dehydration at the Milwaukee County jail "was subjected to a form of torture" during 10 days in solitary confinement, his family alleges in a federal lawsuit.

The lawsuit filed Thursday claims jail staff ignored 38-year-old Terrill Thomas' pleas for water last April and that inmates "overheard his cries for water for days."

Melissa Baldauff, a spokeswoman for County Executive Chris Abele, said the county takes all complaints filed against it seriously but can't comment on pending litigation.

Thomas was among four people who died at the Milwaukee County jail last year. A woman whose baby died at the jail after she gave birth is also suing.
Sheriff Clarke manages to still be an unapologetic ass.

Quote:
Sheriff David Clarke, who oversees the jail, said he had no comment on the lawsuit but he noted Thomas' criminal background in an email statement.

"I have nearly 1000 inmates. I don't know all their names but is this the guy who was in custody for shooting up the Potawatomi Casino causing one man to be hit by gunfire while in possession of a firearm by a career convicted felon?" Clarke said. "The media never reports that in stories about him. If that is him, then at least I know who you are talking about."
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Old 13th March 2017, 03:12 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
Milwaukee inmate's family says dehydration death was torture



Sheriff Clarke manages to still be an unapologetic ass.
He has declared himself judge jury and executioner I see.
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Old 13th March 2017, 04:25 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
He has declared himself judge jury and executioner I see.
He's part of the Constitutional Sheriffs and Peace Officers Association so that part and parcel with being that kind of lunatic.
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