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Tags Alt-Right , fascism charges , racism charges , Richard Spencer , Steve Bannon , Trump supporters

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Old 21st November 2016, 11:35 PM   #1
ChristianProgressive
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Trump isn't a fascist? Meet advisor Bannon's bestest buddies

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...ch-npi/508379/

Warning: don't play the vid in the article unless you have a strong stomach and no problems with your blood pressure.
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Old 21st November 2016, 11:49 PM   #2
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Seen the vid tonight ....".Und ve "Heil!" "Heil!" "vRight in der Fueh rer's face!!!!!!"*








*brought to you by Spike Jones and World War II (which we fought to delete the Nazi slime). Happily ready to do it again!!!!!!!
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Old 22nd November 2016, 01:44 AM   #3
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This is what scares me about Trump. I'm not scared of Trump as much as I'm scared of his socially regressive conservative appointments.

These people are exactly who many of us saw coming out of the wood work when Trump was elected. I know Trump supporters hate the idea of being characterized as racist that voted for Trump for racist reasons but there's no doubt a kernel of truth to that in terms of his grass roots support.
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Old 22nd November 2016, 11:31 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Juniversal View Post
This is what scares me about Trump. I'm not scared of Trump as much as I'm scared of his socially regressive conservative appointments.

These people are exactly who many of us saw coming out of the wood work when Trump was elected. I know Trump supporters hate the idea of being characterized as racist that voted for Trump for racist reasons but there's no doubt a kernel of truth to that in terms of his grass roots support.
All the corn in Iowa's fields are not enough to represent them/that!!!!!
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Old 22nd November 2016, 11:47 AM   #5
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And just to make sure there's no room for misinterpretation, they used gratuitous German!
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Old 22nd November 2016, 01:05 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Juniversal View Post
This is what scares me about Trump. I'm not scared of Trump as much as I'm scared of his socially regressive conservative appointments.

These people are exactly who many of us saw coming out of the wood work when Trump was elected. I know Trump supporters hate the idea of being characterized as racist that voted for Trump for racist reasons but there's no doubt a kernel of truth to that in terms of his grass roots support.
Of course, supporting racists is totally not the same as being racist, right?
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Old 22nd November 2016, 01:23 PM   #7
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Just to provide a little skepticism to this forum, I thought I would look into Bannon's connection to the people mentioned in the linked article, particularly Richard Spencer.

Slate provides us with the most commonly cited connection:

Quote:
Richard Spencer is one of the leading “intellectuals” of the alt-right movement. This was according the website Breitbart when it was being run by incoming White House chief strategist Stephen Bannon.
Okay, so I went to the linked article at Breitbart, and sure enough, Spencer's name appears in a section entitled "The Intellectuals". Case closed, right? Yeah, there is no mention of "leading" anywhere in the article, but that's a quibble, since they only put the quotes around intellectual.

Except that Bannon didn't write the article. Allum Bokhari and Milo Yiannopolous did. And it's entitled "An Establishment Conservative's Guide to the Alt-Right", indicating that it's intended to introduce the readers of Breitbart to the Alt-Right.

The article is pretty balanced about the Alt-Right. While it denies that the group is solely made up of "anti-Semites, white supremacists, and other members of the Stormfront set," it also notes that the group is "taboo-defying" (not a positive thing to most conservatives), prone to "juvenile pranks", and that "There are principled objections to the tribal concerns of the alt-right...."

As for the "intellectual" label, I suppose it is natural for folks at Slate to resent it being applied to a non-liberal, but according to his Wikipedia page, Spencer got his BA at the University of Virginia and his Masters at the University of Chicago. No matter what you think of his views (and I find them repugnant), you cannot argue that he's unintelligent.
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Old 22nd November 2016, 04:38 PM   #8
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Just noticed there's a disturbing lack of blonde hair, blue eyed Aryans in that crowd. Hitler would be so disappointed.


@ Brainster...personally I won't label the guy a white nationalist until there's clear evidence he holds those views. Haven't heard anything concrete to sway me yet.
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Old 22nd November 2016, 09:25 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Juniversal View Post
This is what scares me about Trump. I'm not scared of Trump as much as I'm scared of his socially regressive conservative appointments.

These people are exactly who many of us saw coming out of the wood work when Trump was elected. I know Trump supporters hate the idea of being characterized as racist that voted for Trump for racist reasons but there's no doubt a kernel of truth to that in terms of his grass roots support.
A phrase I hear from them over and over goes something like this: "He just said what he had to say to get elected. He won't really be that bad. Just look at this picture of him with [insert minority/gay/woman/etc]..."

Also keep in mind that this was very much a "not the other candidate" election. Both Hillary and Trump had high "reservations" numbers (meaning people were not completely happy with their candidate).

The other big factor were breakaway blue-collar democrats in the Midwest who are just sick of the traditional Democrat handling of their economic interests, and have been for a very long time now. They just finally snapped. Here's a very good article about them that I think explains a lot.

https://www.thenation.com/article/wh...sts-they-dont/

Then, of course, there are indeed the Trump supporters who really are either slope-headed neanderthals or true black-souled monsters crawling back out from under the rocks they've hibernated under.
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Old 22nd November 2016, 09:29 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Juniversal View Post
Just noticed there's a disturbing lack of blonde hair, blue eyed Aryans in that crowd. Hitler would be so disappointed.


@ Brainster...personally I won't label the guy a white nationalist until there's clear evidence he holds those views. Haven't heard anything concrete to sway me yet.
Not to paint out they will be high on the pogram list when it comes!!!!!!!
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Old 22nd November 2016, 10:25 PM   #11
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Just gonna put this abridged list of fascist elements, from Umberto Eco, right here.

Quote:
1. The cult of tradition. “One has only to look at the syllabus of every fascist movement to find the major traditionalist thinkers. The Nazi gnosis was nourished by traditionalist, syncretistic, occult elements.”
2. The rejection of modernism. “The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.”
3. The cult of action for action’s sake. “Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation.”
4. Disagreement is treason. “The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge.”
5. Fear of difference. “The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.”
6. Appeal to social frustration. “One of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups.”
7. The obsession with a plot. “The followers must feel besieged. The easiest way to solve the plot is the appeal to xenophobia.”
8. The enemy is both strong and weak. “By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.”
9. Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. “For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle.”
10. Contempt for the weak. “Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology.”
11. Everybody is educated to become a hero. “In Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked with the cult of death.”
12. Machismo and weaponry. “Machismo implies both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality.”
13. Selective populism. “There is in our future a TV or Internet populism, in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People.”
14. Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak. “All the Nazi or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning.”

Umberto Eco Makes a List of the 14 Common Features of Fascism
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Old 23rd November 2016, 12:55 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Juniversal View Post
Just noticed there's a disturbing lack of blonde hair, blue eyed Aryans in that crowd. Hitler would be so disappointed.


@ Brainster...personally I won't label the guy a white nationalist until there's clear evidence he holds those views. Haven't heard anything concrete to sway me yet.
Good point. I watched much of his speech and didn't see anything really objectionable. Yeah, they do the heil salute, but that strikes me as nose-thumbing at the media which has labeled them as neo-Nazis. Like Yiannopolous said, they are prone to defying taboos and engaging in juvenile pranks.
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Old 23rd November 2016, 02:31 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Good point. I watched much of his speech and didn't see anything really objectionable. Yeah, they do the heil salute, but that strikes me as nose-thumbing at the media which has labeled them as neo-Nazis. Like Yiannopolous said, they are prone to defying taboos and engaging in juvenile pranks.
Just to be clear I was referring to Bannon, not Spencer. Spencer (and the members of the audience) are no doubt white nationalist...
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Old 23rd November 2016, 02:39 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Good point. I watched much of his speech and didn't see anything really objectionable. Yeah, they do the heil salute, but that strikes me as nose-thumbing at the media which has labeled them as neo-Nazis. Like Yiannopolous said, they are prone to defying taboos and engaging in juvenile pranks.
From CNN:

"Her coalition was made up of mutually hostile tribes only united out of a hatred of 'whitey' -- that is to say, out of a hatred of us," Spencer said.
He added that "there are no two parts of this coalition who could ever be in the same room together for any length of time."
"America was, until this last generation, a white country, designed for ourselves and our posterity. It is our creation and our inheritance, and it belongs to us," Spencer said.

Sorry, those words don't strike me as nose-thumbing or ironic. They seem consistent with white nationalism.

Bannon's views are a little less overt, though the term "renegade Jew" is pretty alarming. Trump's views are even less obvious, though again his comments about Mexican illegal immigrants are pretty damned offensive.
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Old 23rd November 2016, 03:49 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Good point. I watched much of his speech and didn't see anything really objectionable. Yeah, they do the heil salute, but that strikes me as nose-thumbing at the media which has labeled them as neo-Nazis. Like Yiannopolous said, they are prone to defying taboos and engaging in juvenile pranks.
Anti-Semites being silly you say. From Jean-Paul Sartre's Anti-Semite & Jew (1944):

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Old 23rd November 2016, 05:33 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
From CNN:

"Her coalition was made up of mutually hostile tribes only united out of a hatred of 'whitey' -- that is to say, out of a hatred of us," Spencer said.
He added that "there are no two parts of this coalition who could ever be in the same room together for any length of time."
"America was, until this last generation, a white country, designed for ourselves and our posterity. It is our creation and our inheritance, and it belongs to us," Spencer said.

Sorry, those words don't strike me as nose-thumbing or ironic. They seem consistent with white nationalism.
True, but I only feel that way about the last quote. Really, though, I think this is just being drummed up by the media since they are still so but hurt about a Trump victory. There were only 200 people at that rally - as mentioned here - I don't think it merits as much coverage as it's been getting.

Quote:
Bannon's views are a little less overt, though the term "renegade Jew" is pretty alarming.
I haven't seen any evidence whatsoever about him being racist, except for that single "renegade jew" headline which wasn't even written by him, and also was not racist at all. Read the article. If that's all you've got on Bannon, I think your "a little less overt" statement is not only an extraordinary understatement, it isn't even a justifiable statement at all.

Quote:
Trump's views are even less obvious, though again his comments about Mexican illegal immigrants are pretty damned offensive.
Which comments?
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Old 23rd November 2016, 06:00 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
True, but I only feel that way about the last quote. Really, though, I think this is just being drummed up by the media since they are still so but hurt about a Trump victory. There were only 200 people at that rally - as mentioned here - I don't think it merits as much coverage as it's been getting.
I don't know whether it merits the coverage. I mostly see it being discussed online, and less in mainstream news sources.

Quote:
I haven't seen any evidence whatsoever about him being racist, except for that single "renegade jew" headline which wasn't even written by him, and also was not racist at all. Read the article. If that's all you've got on Bannon, I think your "a little less overt" statement is not only an extraordinary understatement, it isn't even a justifiable statement at all.
I've looked it up. It's not clear anti-semitism, I'll agree.

Quote:
Which comments?
Comments that Mexico "sends" rapists (and some, he assumes, are good people). This is not simple racism, but is nonetheless grossly insensitive and misleading. To pretend that the great bulk of illegal immigrants are purposely "sent" here because they are criminals is a very troubling lie.
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Old 23rd November 2016, 06:10 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I've looked it up. It's not clear anti-semitism, I'll agree.
I'd say not only is it not clear anti-semitism, it's not even remotely anti-semitic at all! Have you heard anything else on Bannon? I keep hear that he's "linked" to white nationalists and keep repeatedly hearing this "renegade jew" headline (which is neither anti-semitic nor was it written by Bannon), but that's about it.



Quote:
Comments that Mexico "sends" rapists (and some, he assumes, are good people). This is not simple racism, but is nonetheless grossly insensitive and misleading. To pretend that the great bulk of illegal immigrants are purposely "sent" here because they are criminals is a very troubling lie.
An incorrect (but, to me, obviously hyperbolic) statement for sure, but definitely not racist.

If these are the incidents that are being used to brand Trump and Bannon as racists, I'd say they definitely fall under the "crying wolf" description that has been going around recently. Furthermore, I'd say it's more accurate to accuse those very wolf-cryers of doing more harm to race relations than Trump or Bannon.

I'm very open to having my mind changed, but not seeming to have any luck finding any more "dirt" on this Bannon guy that isn't just make-believe and propaganda.
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Old 23rd November 2016, 06:24 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
I'd say not only is it not clear anti-semitism, it's not even remotely anti-semitic at all! Have you heard anything else on Bannon? I keep hear that he's "linked" to white nationalists and keep repeatedly hearing this "renegade jew" headline (which is neither anti-semitic nor was it written by Bannon), but that's about it.





An incorrect (but, to me, obviously hyperbolic) statement for sure, but definitely not racist.

If these are the incidents that are being used to brand Trump and Bannon as racists, I'd say they definitely fall under the "crying wolf" description that has been going around recently. Furthermore, I'd say it's more accurate to accuse those very wolf-cryers of doing more harm to race relations than Trump or Bannon.

I'm very open to having my mind changed, but not seeming to have any luck finding any more "dirt" on this Bannon guy that isn't just make-believe and propaganda.
I don't know much about Bannon or Breitbart, but MediaMatters is a place to start. Here's a page with some grossly insensitive headlines, including "Young Muslims in the West are a Ticking Time Bomb". Ignoring the fact that attacking Muslims isn't quite racism, this headline seems to encourage bigotry from where I sit.

I don't see smoking guns like the "Hail Trump" folks gave us. I think that real alt-right pros like Bannon are too clever for that. I also think that Bannon and Breitbart have grossly coarsened political discourse and are vile bastards -- but that's not the same thing as finding evidence of racism.
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Old 23rd November 2016, 06:50 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
...If these are the incidents that are being used to brand Trump and Bannon as racists, I'd say they definitely fall under the "crying wolf" description that has been going around recently. Furthermore, I'd say it's more accurate to accuse those very wolf-cryers of doing more harm to race relations than Trump or Bannon...
More harm is an understatement. The recent political climate has caused me to alter how I interpret & accept news about political topics. This is a result of the amount of defamation, exaggeration, misleading & disinformation I've perceived from news organizations I previously respected. I don't have enough free-time to analyze all of the accusations that are out there. I'm left with accepting none of it until I can verify it through various independent sources. What concerns me even more is anybody censoring what news is available to me. Depending on the specifics, if an organization decided to censor the news that was available to me I'd abandon them. Strange times.
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Old 23rd November 2016, 11:43 PM   #21
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The central lie about Bannon has been based on the quote about him saying Breitbart was "the platform for the alt-right."

I've yet to see anyone point out a crucially important point on that: the term alt-right was still being figured out when he said it, and even is now. Many people like Bannon, Crowder, Yianopolis, Watson, etc. latched onto it just thinking it meant young, fresh, edgy conservativism.

Now that you know that, you can be even more dismayed at the lying press.
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Old 24th November 2016, 02:06 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
The central lie about Bannon has been based on the quote about him saying Breitbart was "the platform for the alt-right."

I've yet to see anyone point out a crucially important point on that: the term alt-right was still being figured out when he said it, and even is now. Many people like Bannon, Crowder, Yianopolis, Watson, etc. latched onto it just thinking it meant young, fresh, edgy conservativism.

Now that you know that, you can be even more dismayed at the lying press.
To anyone not locked in unassailable bias, it was pretty clear that the alt-right was racist and flirted with Naziism from the very beginning. It should have been enough for any reasonable person to put as much distance between him and it as possible. Bannon embraced it, and now he's in the Nazi-swamp. Drink that swamp water, Bannon, and keep telling us it tastes like OJ.
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Old 24th November 2016, 03:29 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
To anyone not locked in unassailable bias, it was pretty clear that the alt-right was racist and flirted with Naziism from the very beginning. It should have been enough for any reasonable person to put as much distance between him and it as possible. Bannon embraced it, and now he's in the Nazi-swamp. Drink that swamp water, Bannon, and keep telling us it tastes like OJ.
Not even remotely true. I assure you, as someone in a VERY good position to be aware of this whole dynamic, there have been countless milquetoast egalitarian cuckservatives who think they're edgy because they oppose the most extreme excesses of SJWs who are only just very recently realizing that the term "alt-right" might have too much baggage for them. They really just thought it was hip young conservatives, ha.

Breitbart is very very much in this category. They are notorious in my circle for banning "racists" from their comment section. I've been banned from it multiple times and I didn't even go all that hard.
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Old 24th November 2016, 03:32 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Not even remotely true. I assure you, as someone in a VERY good position to be aware of this whole dynamic, there have been countless milquetoast egalitarian cuckservatives who think they're edgy because they oppose the most extreme excesses of SJWs who are only just very recently realizing that the term "alt-right" might have too much baggage for them. They really just thought it was hip young conservatives, ha.

Breitbart is very very much in this category. They are notorious in my circle for banning "racists" from their comment section. I've been banned from it multiple times and I didn't even go all that hard.
As we're making baseless assertions, not even remotely true.

What I said was true and what you said wasn't.

Readers can decide if they want to believe the self-described white nationalist, or the other guy.

Considering the racist cess-pit that is the Breitbart comments section, I think it's rather obvious who to believe.
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Old 24th November 2016, 03:37 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
As we're making baseless assertions, not even remotely true.

What I said was true and what you said wasn't.

Readers can decide if they want to believe the self-described white nationalist, or the other guy.

Considering the racist cess-pit that is the Breitbart comments section, I think it's rather obvious who to Believe.
So your theory is that Lauren frigging Southern and Ezra Levant and Gavin McInnes and Steven Crowder... egalitarian cucks, all... were knowingly embracing an ultra racist term and adopting it?

Come now. This is my domain. Let me educate.
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Old 24th November 2016, 03:39 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
So your theory is that Lauren frigging Southern and Ezra Levant and Gavin McInnes and Steven Crowder... egalitarian cucks, all... were knowingly embracing an ultra racist term and adopting it?

Come now. This is my domain. Let me educate.
No, I'm claiming that Bannon is. The rest are just along for the ride.

Bannon will embrace anyone who can get him closer to power. He tied his tug line to the alt-right neo-Nazis and has been riding their wake ever since. Now he's going to be in the White House. Good job America.

And for the record, I very much doubt anyone here is interested in being "educated" by you.
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Old 24th November 2016, 03:40 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
This is my domain. Let me educate.
The domain of racists is in the corner wearing a pointy hat with a D on it. Education and racists don't mix apparently.
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Old 24th November 2016, 03:49 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
No, I'm claiming that Bannon is. The rest are just along for the ride.

Bannon will embrace anyone who can get him closer to power. He tied his tug line to the alt-right neo-Nazis and has been riding their wake ever since. Now he's going to be in the White House. Good job America.

And for the record, I very much doubt anyone here is interested in being "educated" by you.
Oh yeah, attaching yourself to one of the most fringe, reviled groups in the country is pretty much a direct pathway to power! Makes sense!

But if you really do believe the alt-right is that important, you should be wanting to be educated by me about it. No? Know thy enemy?
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Old 24th November 2016, 03:51 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Oh yeah, attaching yourself to one of the most fringe, reviled groups in the country is pretty much a direct pathway to power! Makes sense!
It worked in the post-factual environment created by the GOP, and Trump in particular.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
But if you really do believe the alt-right is that important, you should be wanting to be educated by me about it. No? Know thy enemy?
No, I'd rather educate myself. I doubt you could provide any insight that wasn't tainted by your terrible ideology.
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Old 24th November 2016, 04:44 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It worked in the post-factual environment created by the GOP, and Trump in particular.

No, I'd rather educate myself. I doubt you could provide any insight that wasn't tainted by your terrible ideology.

To his credit. He was laughed at for his views on the election. Until he was right.
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Old 24th November 2016, 05:02 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by rdaneel View Post
Scalzi put it well: http://whatever.scalzi.com/2016/11/1...ory-of-racism/
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Old 24th November 2016, 05:32 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
I assure you, as someone in a VERY good position to be aware of this whole dynamic (snip)


Pfft... Bwa ha ha ha ha!
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Old 24th November 2016, 05:33 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Caper View Post
To his credit. He was laughed at for his views on the election. Until he was right.
But was he right by accident, or for the right reasons? It's one thing to win the lottery but that doesn't mean you're an expert in probability.
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Old 24th November 2016, 05:41 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
That was an excellent and simple analogy that every Trump voter should work hard to understand.

Trump voters: YOU are responsible for the racism, misogyny, homophobia and anti-science that the Trump admin have brought and will still bring to the forefront. You can claim that you aren't racist as much as you want. You still voted for racism.
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Old 24th November 2016, 08:13 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
The domain of racists is in the corner wearing a pointy hat with a D on it. Education and racists don't mix apparently.
You might have a point here.

Quote:
Wiginton told The Battalion: "If we want to have a white state or a white community or a white homeland, we should be able to have that.*We respect that for all people. If we look at the NAACP, black people have the right to have that. Why can't white people have a WAACP?"
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Old 24th November 2016, 09:15 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
No doubt apologists will be along claiming that it was said ironically and not stupidly
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Old 24th November 2016, 09:29 AM   #37
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So, still....nothing on Bannon?

Anyone?

I think the left has been digging pretty hard to backtrack and find anything they can pin on him to try and justify their reflexive call of "racism". Still no luck?
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Old 24th November 2016, 09:40 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Trump voters: YOU are responsible for the racism, misogyny, homophobia and anti-science that the Trump admin have brought and will still bring to the forefront. You can claim that you aren't racist as much as you want. You still voted for racism.
Bald assertion ignored.
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Old 24th November 2016, 09:46 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Oh yeah, attaching yourself to one of the most fringe, reviled groups in the country is pretty much a direct pathway to power! Makes sense!
If I were to run for office, I'd try to leverage the Flat Earthers lobby. Since none of the other candidates are taking their concerns into account, I'd be SURE to win!! [/uke2se]
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Old 24th November 2016, 09:49 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
Bald assertion ignored.
How is it a bald assertion to note that voting for candidate X and his known policies is a show of support for those policies?
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