[Merged] How Trump has Emboldened Bigots, Racists and Nazis - Page 3

Belz... · 26th September 2017, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by jimbob

Racism is emotional and not based on reason

Can't it be based on erroneous data or some dispassionate perspective? I would think so.

jimbob · 26th September 2017, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by Argumemnon

Can't it be based on erroneous data or some dispassionate perspective? I would think so.

Obviously it *could* be. In practice, it doesn't seem to be.

I have a book from the 1950s by Hans Eysenk which includes a chapter on the psychology of antisemitism, and he notes that antisemites in that era tended to hold mutually contradictory views about Jews, for example that they kept separate from society and didn't work, and also that they were steeling jobs by undercutting non Jews, and infiltrating all levels of society with a Jewish agenda.

When I have time, I might find the reference.

Belz... · 26th September 2017, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by jimbob

I have a book from the 1950s by Hans Eysenk which includes a chapter on the psychology of antisemitism, and he notes that antisemites in that era tended to hold mutually contradictory views about Jews, for example that they kept separate from society and didn't work, and also that they were steeling jobs by undercutting non Jews, and infiltrating all levels of society with a Jewish agenda.

Sounds like they were latching on to any excuse to hate them. I wonder what was the root cause of it, however.

Imhotep · 26th September 2017, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by phiwum

Great thinkers don't seem to be able to dissuade racists through argument. This is, of course, not intended to say that such arguments shouldn't be had necessarily, but that your prediction seems fantastic.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

I don't think it's the current racists that will be convinced either. It's the next couple of generations that will.

jimbob · 26th September 2017, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by Argumemnon

Sounds like they were latching on to any excuse to hate them. I wonder what was the root cause of it, however.

I'd guess that they'd been brought up to hate. Nothing more. It's hard to unlearn what you learned as a kid at an emotional level.

ETA: especially when you haven't been given any reason to try to unlearn it.

It also seems standard conspiracy theory material.

phiwum · 26th September 2017, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by Imhotep

I don't think it's the current racists that will be convinced either. It's the next couple of generations that will.

I wonder what sort of great thinkers you have in mind.

I hate to say it, because it betrays a cynicism about the power of reason that I wish I didn't have, but marketing is your best bet and marketing doesn't require that we first have a dialogue about our beliefs and prejudices.

Now, all that said, I'm not arguing in favor of hate speech laws or anything of the sort. I like that freedom of speech in the U.S. is quite broad. I just don't think "Let's all have a chat about our opinions and then the big thinkers will reason us out of the worst ones and into the best ones" is a promising strategy, not even in a couple of generations.

Stacko · 26th September 2017, 07:26 PM

With the lawless racist theocrat, Roy Moore, beating Trump and McConnell backed conventionalish, Luther Strange, in Alabama, it seems a hardcore portion of GOP base that wants more open bigotry has been activated. Trump may be more the result of these people coalescing in pursuit of that goal than the catalyst.

Foolmewunz · 26th September 2017, 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

It's hard to take your concern seriously when all you bring is sarcasm. It gives the impression you don't even take it seriously yourself.

Anyway, your argument is both a non sequitur and contrafactual. And "those on the right" is a pretty weaselly phrasing. You were having a conversation with other members here. You don't need to appeal to an anonymous other group, "those on the right". You can actually address the claims and arguments made by the members involved in the conversation. Assuming any of them have actually said what you're claiming. So c'mon: Put aside the sarcasm and the elisions, and have at it.

What a strange post! Have you taken up tone policing, now? The thread hadn't seen any activity in a bit. I ran across this old article compliments of another poster in another thread.

It struck me that the enablers and apologists always demand firm evidence that any misanthropic deed we post be proven to be Trump related. Since this one has his very words saying that he's got Trump in office so he is going to merrily discriminate based on her "race".

As usual, you have no problems nitpicking the terms used, but you don't address the issue! Here's a bigot who felt so enabled by the Orange Cheeto that he decided to exercise his rights to be a bigot.

That seems pretty clear.

Foolmewunz · 26th September 2017, 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

It's hard to take your concern seriously when all you bring is sarcasm. It gives the impression you don't even take it seriously yourself.

Anyway, your argument is both a non sequitur and contrafactual. And "those on the right" is a pretty weaselly phrasing. You were having a conversation with other members here. You don't need to appeal to an anonymous other group, "those on the right". You can actually address the claims and arguments made by the members involved in the conversation. Assuming any of them have actually said what you're claiming. So c'mon: Put aside the sarcasm and the elisions, and have at it.

What a strange post! Have you taken up tone policing, now? The thread hadn't seen any activity in a bit. I ran across this old article compliments of another poster in another thread.

It struck me that the enablers and apologists always demand firm evidence that any misanthropic deed we post be proven to be Trump related. Since this one has his very words saying that he's got Trump in office so he is going to merrily discriminate based on her "race".

As usual, you have no problems nitpicking the terms used, but you don't address the issue! Here's a bigot who felt so enabled by the Orange Cheeto that he decided to exercise his rights to be a bigot.

That seems pretty clear.

ETA: Hilited bit.... turns out that's wrong. What it hadn't seen was much activity related to the topic of the thread.

ponderingturtle · 27th September 2017, 03:14 AM

Originally Posted by Stacko

With the lawless racist theocrat, Roy Moore, beating Trump and McConnell backed conventionalish, Luther Strange, in Alabama, it seems a hardcore portion of GOP base that wants more open bigotry has been activated. Trump may be more the result of these people coalescing in pursuit of that goal than the catalyst.

The bigots certainly cite trump a lot when harassing people. But for some reason we are supposed to ignore all that. Hell during the campaign his campaign slogans were used in racial harassment, that should give people a clue about what he was all about.

Upchurch · 26th June 2018, 04:22 PM

Scientific American: Do Trump Tweets Spur Hate Crimes?

Quote:

Muller and Schwarz analyzed the relationship between Trump’s tweets and anti-Muslim hate crimes by drawing upon a number of data sources, including the FBI’s hate crime data between the years 1990 and 2016 as well as Twitter usage across the country. First, they documented that the number of anti-Muslim hate crimes recorded by the FBI increased during Trump’s presidency. In fact, anti-Muslim crimes have been more prevalent under Trump compared to any other previous president, including George W. Bush following 9/11. Second, the researchers found strong statistical correlations between the number of Islam-related tweets made by Trump in a single week and the number of anti-Muslim hate crimes that took place in the days and weeks that followed. Trump’s anti-Islam tweets were only correlated with anti-Muslim crimes and not other types of hate crimes. Therefore, it seems likely that it was the specific content of Trump’s tweets, and not growing anti-minority sentiment in general, that were linked to the uptick in anti-Muslim hate crimes.

However:

Quote:

While highly suggestive, a major limitation of this research is that it is correlational not causal. In order to prove that Trump’s tweets truly caused an increase in hate crimes, the researchers would need to run a carefully controlled experiment showing that exposure to such messages leads people to act out in hateful ways. This research also does not prove that Trump’s tweets cause people to hold prejudicial views towards Muslims. In fact, the researchers themselves do not seem to believe this. Instead, they point out that their findings are consistent with the idea that Trump’s presidency has made it more socially acceptable for many people to express prejudicial or hateful views that they already possessed prior to his election.

FWIW

pgwenthold · 26th June 2018, 04:47 PM

You could just ask the people that do it. How many have actually admitted that Trump gives them permission? More than a few

Tsukasa Buddha · 26th June 2018, 05:36 PM

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

You could just ask the people that do it. How many have actually admitted that Trump gives them permission? More than a few

Just the other day:

Quote:

That's when the woman yelled "Go back to Mexico!" at his mother, Guzman told CNN.

The video starts with the woman holding her middle finger up to Guzman’s face as he says, "I don’t know why you hate us. Why do you hate us?" To which she responds, "Because you’re Mexicans."

"We’re honest people right here," he says. The woman laughs.

"Yeah, rapists," she says, and as Guzman tries to interject, she continues: "And animals. And drug dealers. Drug dealers, rapists and animals. Even the president of the United States says so."

Linky.

dudalb · 26th June 2018, 07:25 PM

Support Trump, Support Bigotry.
It's that simple.

dudalb · 26th June 2018, 07:31 PM

ANd with Trump emboldended by the Supreme Court decision we ain't seen nothing yet.

26th September 2017, 11:08 AM	#81
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,449	Originally Posted by jimbob Racism is emotional and not based on reason Can't it be based on erroneous data or some dispassionate perspective? I would think so.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

26th September 2017, 11:13 AM	#82
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 22,815	Originally Posted by Argumemnon Can't it be based on erroneous data or some dispassionate perspective? I would think so. Obviously it could be. In practice, it doesn't seem to be. I have a book from the 1950s by Hans Eysenk which includes a chapter on the psychology of antisemitism, and he notes that antisemites in that era tended to hold mutually contradictory views about Jews, for example that they kept separate from society and didn't work, and also that they were steeling jobs by undercutting non Jews, and infiltrating all levels of society with a Jewish agenda. When I have time, I might find the reference.
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

26th September 2017, 11:15 AM	#83
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,449	Originally Posted by jimbob I have a book from the 1950s by Hans Eysenk which includes a chapter on the psychology of antisemitism, and he notes that antisemites in that era tended to hold mutually contradictory views about Jews, for example that they kept separate from society and didn't work, and also that they were steeling jobs by undercutting non Jews, and infiltrating all levels of society with a Jewish agenda. Sounds like they were latching on to any excuse to hate them. I wonder what was the root cause of it, however.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

26th September 2017, 11:18 AM	#84
Imhotep Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2017 Location: Midwest USA Posts: 1,025	Originally Posted by phiwum Great thinkers don't seem to be able to dissuade racists through argument. This is, of course, not intended to say that such arguments shouldn't be had necessarily, but that your prediction seems fantastic. Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk I don't think it's the current racists that will be convinced either. It's the next couple of generations that will.
	Last edited by Imhotep; 26th September 2017 at 11:19 AM.

26th September 2017, 11:21 AM	#85
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 22,815	Originally Posted by Argumemnon Sounds like they were latching on to any excuse to hate them. I wonder what was the root cause of it, however. I'd guess that they'd been brought up to hate. Nothing more. It's hard to unlearn what you learned as a kid at an emotional level. ETA: especially when you haven't been given any reason to try to unlearn it. It also seems standard conspiracy theory material.
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending Last edited by jimbob; 26th September 2017 at 11:23 AM.

26th September 2017, 01:47 PM	#86
phiwum Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 12,720	Originally Posted by Imhotep I don't think it's the current racists that will be convinced either. It's the next couple of generations that will. I wonder what sort of great thinkers you have in mind. I hate to say it, because it betrays a cynicism about the power of reason that I wish I didn't have, but marketing is your best bet and marketing doesn't require that we first have a dialogue about our beliefs and prejudices. Now, all that said, I'm not arguing in favor of hate speech laws or anything of the sort. I like that freedom of speech in the U.S. is quite broad. I just don't think "Let's all have a chat about our opinions and then the big thinkers will reason us out of the worst ones and into the best ones" is a promising strategy, not even in a couple of generations.

26th September 2017, 07:26 PM	#87
Stacko Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 10,837	With the lawless racist theocrat, Roy Moore, beating Trump and McConnell backed conventionalish, Luther Strange, in Alabama, it seems a hardcore portion of GOP base that wants more open bigotry has been activated. Trump may be more the result of these people coalescing in pursuit of that goal than the catalyst.

26th September 2017, 07:38 PM	#88
Foolmewunz Grammar Resistance Leader TLA Dictator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Pattaya, Thailand Posts: 41,468	Originally Posted by theprestige It's hard to take your concern seriously when all you bring is sarcasm. It gives the impression you don't even take it seriously yourself. Anyway, your argument is both a non sequitur and contrafactual. And "those on the right" is a pretty weaselly phrasing. You were having a conversation with other members here. You don't need to appeal to an anonymous other group, "those on the right". You can actually address the claims and arguments made by the members involved in the conversation. Assuming any of them have actually said what you're claiming. So c'mon: Put aside the sarcasm and the elisions, and have at it. What a strange post! Have you taken up tone policing, now? The thread hadn't seen any activity in a bit. I ran across this old article compliments of another poster in another thread. It struck me that the enablers and apologists always demand firm evidence that any misanthropic deed we post be proven to be Trump related. Since this one has his very words saying that he's got Trump in office so he is going to merrily discriminate based on her "race". As usual, you have no problems nitpicking the terms used, but you don't address the issue! Here's a bigot who felt so enabled by the Orange Cheeto that he decided to exercise his rights to be a bigot. That seems pretty clear.
	__________________ Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.

26th September 2017, 07:41 PM	#89
Foolmewunz Grammar Resistance Leader TLA Dictator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Pattaya, Thailand Posts: 41,468	Originally Posted by theprestige It's hard to take your concern seriously when all you bring is sarcasm. It gives the impression you don't even take it seriously yourself. Anyway, your argument is both a non sequitur and contrafactual. And "those on the right" is a pretty weaselly phrasing. You were having a conversation with other members here. You don't need to appeal to an anonymous other group, "those on the right". You can actually address the claims and arguments made by the members involved in the conversation. Assuming any of them have actually said what you're claiming. So c'mon: Put aside the sarcasm and the elisions, and have at it. What a strange post! Have you taken up tone policing, now? The thread hadn't seen any activity in a bit. I ran across this old article compliments of another poster in another thread. It struck me that the enablers and apologists always demand firm evidence that any misanthropic deed we post be proven to be Trump related. Since this one has his very words saying that he's got Trump in office so he is going to merrily discriminate based on her "race". As usual, you have no problems nitpicking the terms used, but you don't address the issue! Here's a bigot who felt so enabled by the Orange Cheeto that he decided to exercise his rights to be a bigot. That seems pretty clear. ETA: Hilited bit.... turns out that's wrong. What it hadn't seen was much activity related to the topic of the thread.
	__________________ Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.

27th September 2017, 03:14 AM	#90
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 50,466	Originally Posted by Stacko With the lawless racist theocrat, Roy Moore, beating Trump and McConnell backed conventionalish, Luther Strange, in Alabama, it seems a hardcore portion of GOP base that wants more open bigotry has been activated. Trump may be more the result of these people coalescing in pursuit of that goal than the catalyst. The bigots certainly cite trump a lot when harassing people. But for some reason we are supposed to ignore all that. Hell during the campaign his campaign slogans were used in racial harassment, that should give people a clue about what he was all about.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

26th June 2018, 04:22 PM	#91
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 32,384	Scientific American: Do Trump Tweets Spur Hate Crimes? Quote: Muller and Schwarz analyzed the relationship between Trump’s tweets and anti-Muslim hate crimes by drawing upon a number of data sources, including the FBI’s hate crime data between the years 1990 and 2016 as well as Twitter usage across the country. First, they documented that the number of anti-Muslim hate crimes recorded by the FBI increased during Trump’s presidency. In fact, anti-Muslim crimes have been more prevalent under Trump compared to any other previous president, including George W. Bush following 9/11. Second, the researchers found strong statistical correlations between the number of Islam-related tweets made by Trump in a single week and the number of anti-Muslim hate crimes that took place in the days and weeks that followed. Trump’s anti-Islam tweets were only correlated with anti-Muslim crimes and not other types of hate crimes. Therefore, it seems likely that it was the specific content of Trump’s tweets, and not growing anti-minority sentiment in general, that were linked to the uptick in anti-Muslim hate crimes. However: Quote: While highly suggestive, a major limitation of this research is that it is correlational not causal. In order to prove that Trump’s tweets truly caused an increase in hate crimes, the researchers would need to run a carefully controlled experiment showing that exposure to such messages leads people to act out in hateful ways. This research also does not prove that Trump’s tweets cause people to hold prejudicial views towards Muslims. In fact, the researchers themselves do not seem to believe this. Instead, they point out that their findings are consistent with the idea that Trump’s presidency has made it more socially acceptable for many people to express prejudicial or hateful views that they already possessed prior to his election. FWIW
	__________________ "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.

26th June 2018, 04:47 PM	#92
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 20,134	You could just ask the people that do it. How many have actually admitted that Trump gives them permission? More than a few
	__________________ "As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets

26th June 2018, 05:36 PM	#93
Tsukasa Buddha Other (please write in) Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 15,297	Originally Posted by pgwenthold You could just ask the people that do it. How many have actually admitted that Trump gives them permission? More than a few Just the other day: Quote: That's when the woman yelled "Go back to Mexico!" at his mother, Guzman told CNN. The video starts with the woman holding her middle finger up to Guzman’s face as he says, "I don’t know why you hate us. Why do you hate us?" To which she responds, "Because you’re Mexicans." "We’re honest people right here," he says. The woman laughs. "Yeah, rapists," she says, and as Guzman tries to interject, she continues: "And animals. And drug dealers. Drug dealers, rapists and animals. Even the president of the United States says so." Linky.
	__________________ As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn

26th June 2018, 07:25 PM	#94
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,334	Support Trump, Support Bigotry. It's that simple.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

26th June 2018, 07:31 PM	#95
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,334	ANd with Trump emboldended by the Supreme Court decision we ain't seen nothing yet.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.