Where is the Common Ground?

[kellyb]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

I don't think people should be following Twitter in general. It's a cesspit.

Not necessarily. It depends on who you follow.

[TragicMonkey]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

I don't think people should be following Twitter in general. It's a cesspit.

And the president is wallowing in it, supplying more than his share of the cess. Why on earth should we accept the instruction to ignore him and give him a pass on his behavior? He's choosing to publish awful, foolish, and vicious remarks on a global platform. I'd say that merits scrutiny and judgment.

[ahhell]

Originally Posted by kellyb

Not necessarily. It depends on who you follow.

I here its great for news on specific topics if you're careful about who you follow, I've never quite figure a good use for it myself.

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Other countries seem to be taking them seriously, as are those investigating Trump as he seems to keep making damaging admissions on Twitter. The courts also agreed that a president's Tweets are official enough to fall under recordkeeping laws.

We are in the unfortunate position where we have a president who's tweets and really everything he says can't be taken seriously but he's the president so we have to take them seriously.

[kellyb]

Originally Posted by ahhell

I here its great for news on specific topics if you're careful about who you follow, I've never quite figure a good use for it myself..

If you have any favorite quasi-obscure journalists and bloggers you love, their feeds and the comments in them are the best.

I also follow a few comedians, like Patton Oswalt.

I also have a "list" (an essential function for me - only takes a second to figure out) for hyper-local politics.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

And the president is wallowing in it, supplying more than his share of the cess. Why on earth should we accept the instruction to ignore him and give him a pass on his behavior? He's choosing to publish awful, foolish, and vicious remarks on a global platform. I'd say that merits scrutiny and judgment.

It's not the scrutiny and judgement where we diverge. It's the hyperbole.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by ahhell

We are in the unfortunate position where we have a president who's tweets and really everything he says can't be taken seriously but he's the president so we have to take them seriously.

That's the secret of the American presidency. You don't actually have to take everything the President says seriously.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

And the president is wallowing in it, supplying more than his share of the cess. Why on earth should we accept the instruction to ignore him and give him a pass on his behavior? He's choosing to publish awful, foolish, and vicious remarks on a global platform. I'd say that merits scrutiny and judgment.

You judged him. Do you think his Twitter habit will change for the next two years? Do you think your judgment will change within the next two years?

[TragicMonkey]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

You judged him. Do you think his Twitter habit will change for the next two years? Do you think your judgment will change within the next two years?

Of course I judge him. I think it's perfectly fair to judge people by their deeds and statements. Don't you? And no, I don't think he'll stop Tweeting like a insane idiot in the next two years, nor do I see myself coming around to admiring him for it.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Of course I judge him. I think it's perfectly fair to judge people by their deeds and statements. Don't you? And no, I don't think he'll stop Tweeting like a insane idiot in the next two years, nor do I see myself coming around to admiring him for it.

Way to miss the point, TM.

You have made your judgment of Trump. I'm not disputing your judgment. For these purposes, we can assume your judgment is 100% correct. And Trump will probably continue to tweet as he's been tweeting, and your judgment will remain the same.

So why do you need to keep following him on Twitter? So that you can keep reaching the same judgment you've already reached? To the extent that Trump's twitter behavior reveals something about him that's important to know, hasn't that already been revealed? What more do you expect to discover?

[TragicMonkey]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Way to miss the point, TM.

Way to explain yourself well, in writing, Zig.

Quote:

So why do you need to keep following him on Twitter? So that you can keep reaching the same judgment you've already reached? To the extent that Trump's twitter behavior reveals something about him that's important to know, hasn't that already been revealed? What more do you expect to discover?

I don't follow him on Twitter. I don't follow anyone on Twitter. I read the news, however, and unfortunately that's where his Tweets land because they have global impact. When the most powerful man on the planet is a deranged jerk then yes, his ravings and threats are news.

Are you under the impression that people should just say "Yup, he's a bad one!" and ignore everything that he does and says going forward?

[WilliamSeger]

Originally Posted by theprestige

That's the secret of the American presidency. You don't actually have to take everything the President says seriously.

I think it was Dan Rather who pointed out that there could come a crisis where it's very important that the American public believes Trump, but most of them won't. That's your new normal; I greatly prefer the old one.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by WilliamSeger

I think it was Dan Rather who pointed out that there could come a crisis where it's very important that the American public believes Trump, but most of them won't. That's your new normal; I greatly prefer the old one.

Dan Rather. Criticizing other people for lost credibility.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Are you under the impression that people should just say "Yup, he's a bad one!" and ignore everything that he does and says going forward?

You should mostly ignore what he says, yes. What he does is a different matter, but you don't need to read his tweets to follow that.

[WilliamSeger]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Dan Rather. Criticizing other people for lost credibility.

Dan Rather was duped; Trump is a pathological liar who now leads a party and a "movement" based on an alternate reality. Couldn't find a gif for that.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by WilliamSeger

Dan Rather was duped;

Dan Rather chose to believe a fraud even after it was exposed. He has no one to blame for that but himself.

[Fudbucker]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

You should mostly ignore what he says, yes. What he does is a different matter, but you don't need to read his tweets to follow that.

We should ignore the President calling black people "dogs" and "low IQ" and the thousand other horrible things he's done and said? And if there's a tape of Trump using the N-word? Should we ignore that?

[Distracted1]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

You should mostly ignore what he says, yes. What he does is a different matter, but you don't need to read his tweets to follow that.

By what logic should one ignore what the POTUS says?

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by Distracted1

By what logic should one ignore what the POTUS says?

Because it's what he does that ultimately matters, and for Trump more than most presidents there's a disconnect between the two.

Stop chasing the squirrels.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by Fudbucker

We should ignore the President calling black people "dogs" and "low IQ" and the thousand other horrible things he's done and said? And if there's a tape of Trump using the N-word? Should we ignore that?

You already know he says offensive things. Do you really need to keep listening so you can be individually offended by each new one? Do you enjoy taking offense? Far be it from me to interfere if that's your kink, but otherwise it seems like a waste of time.

[Distracted1]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Because it's what he does that ultimately matters, and for Trump more than most presidents there's a disconnect between the two.

Stop chasing the squirrels.

Should one also ignore what he says he is going to do?

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

You already know he says offensive things. Do you really need to keep listening so you can be individually offended by each new one? Do you enjoy taking offense? Far be it from me to interfere if that's your kink, but otherwise it seems like a waste of time.

I'm curious as to why you have a problem with people reading Trump's tweets if that's what they want to do. You are not going to convince anyone to stop so why keep banging that drum? No one is telling you what to read and not to read.

If you don't want to read his tweets; don't. But please don't tell others they shouldn't. It's not your business.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

I'm curious as to why you have a problem with people reading Trump's tweets if that's what they want to do.

I don't, not really. I'm giving people friendly advice which I think will make their lives more pleasant. People are free to reject that advice.

Quote:

If you don't want to read his tweets; don't. But please don't tell others they shouldn't. It's not your business.

It's not technically my business if people stick their hands in fire ant nests either. I'll still advise people not to do it, especially the ones complaining about how much it stings, but I'm not going to get upset if they don't listen to me.

[WilliamSeger]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Dan Rather chose to believe a fraud even after it was exposed. He has no one to blame for that but himself.

You can't even be honest about that. He acknowledged that the documents were a fraud. He still believes the story that they supposedly documented, and he isn't the only one. But no, Rather got duped, therefore not only was the whole story a fraud, but Rather has no credibility, therefore his comment about having a President who cannot be believed can be dismissed with a funny gif.

[portlandatheist]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Bingo. Stop paying attention to Twitter, and politics starts seeming a lot more normal.

Nope. Its a complete goat rodeo, even without twitter. FUBAR, cluster ****.

[Roger Ramjets]

Originally Posted by WilliamSeger

But no, Rather got duped, therefore not only was the whole story a fraud, but Rather has no credibility, therefore his comment about having a President who cannot be believed can be dismissed with a funny gif.

Or even for no reason at all, because libtards.

Originally Posted by Distracted1

By what logic should one ignore what the POTUS says?

Trump is our Republican president. Nothing else matters.

Quote:

Should one also ignore what he says he is going to do?

Of course! (unless he starts working with Democrats). And don't pay any attention to the man behind the curtain either.

Originally Posted by theprestige

That's the secret of the American presidency. You don't actually have to take everything the President says seriously.

When Trump says something you agree with you can take him seriously. But if he says something idiotic or reprehensible you can ignore it because he was only joking. /gaslighting

Quote:

I'm not the Russian collaborator, here.

No, the real traitors are those libtards who don't fall in line behind our president.

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

You reach common ground by taking over all three government branches and making it illegal to disagree with the government.

Bingo!

[Fudbucker]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Because it's what he does that ultimately matters, and for Trump more than most presidents there's a disconnect between the two.

Stop chasing the squirrels.

The President, to a large extent, is the spokesperson for our society. As the leader of the most powerful country on Earth, of course his words matter, and of course you know this. As you can see, many of us have drawn a line, and the President has stepped over it. For me, it was Access Hollywood. For others, it was Charlottesville.

What a lot of us cannot understand is how some of you still haven't drawn that line.

[thaiboxerken]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Bingo. Stop paying attention to Twitter, and politics starts seeming a lot more normal.

Except for the parts where he's obstructing the Mueller investigation, paying people to STFU about their affairs with him, paying people to keep their conversations at the white house secret and giving more power to foreign dictators.........

[ShadowSot]

There has been a number of missteps in history that has lead to a growing distrust, distaste, suspicion, and apathy towards the government and government inside the US, which has also added to the growing polarity of its people.
Edgewood, Vietnam, JFK, McCarthy, to name a few.
Trump is the result of it.
And is only making it worse.
Stating you need to ignore what he says is rather foolish. People listen to the president.
It's part of what the role of the office is, to speak for and represent the country.
And here he is abysmal.
There are his actions, which comprise of bad deals, repeals, and tax cuts, that may generally improve the pockets of a certain segment of the US population, but not widely benefit the rest of it.
Which to a degree is business as normal, but under the last one we saw some benefits too from those trade offs.

As for his supporters, some I can have common ground, and can even see their point.
They see themselves as screwed over or ignored by the liberal elite.
Some of that comes from being sold for years the tale that they are the true America. Some of it from old set in pride of hard work. And not really grasping the jobs done elsewhere.
On the other hand, the question is what can be done. It's fair to point out that the officials don't really understand their plight. But neither does Trump or those who stand with them. Rather than being screwed over by the liberal states, most of the areas draw heavily on the federal budget and give little back.
The death of the jobs they traditionally had is true, as is the benefits given to inner city groups.
But programs for retraining, relocation, and assistance are ignored.
In a world that is changing they don't want to change.
Whether it's in response to changing market and manufacturing demands, or changes in culture and expectations.
And there are groups inside that who have genuinely been screwed over and ignored.
In short, there's not really a common ground to be met.
I have family who are hardcore Trump supporters and talk proudly about what they'd do to atheists if they met one. Or to those blacks that they don't like, who mostly do the same things the whites they hold up for pity do.

[kellyb]

Originally Posted by ShadowSot

There has been a number of missteps in history that has lead to a growing distrust, distaste, suspicion, and apathy towards the government and government inside the US, which has also added to the growing polarity of its people.
Edgewood, Vietnam, JFK, McCarthy, to name a few.
Trump is the result of it.
And is only making it worse.
Stating you need to ignore what he says is rather foolish. People listen to the president.
It's part of what the role of the office is, to speak for and represent the country.
And here he is abysmal.
There are his actions, which comprise of bad deals, repeals, and tax cuts, that may generally improve the pockets of a certain segment of the US population, but not widely benefit the rest of it.
Which to a degree is business as normal, but under the last one we saw some benefits too from those trade offs.

As for his supporters, some I can have common ground, and can even see their point.
They see themselves as screwed over or ignored by the liberal elite.
Some of that comes from being sold for years the tale that they are the true America. Some of it from old set in pride of hard work. And not really grasping the jobs done elsewhere.
On the other hand, the question is what can be done. It's fair to point out that the officials don't really understand their plight. But neither does Trump or those who stand with them. Rather than being screwed over by the liberal states, most of the areas draw heavily on the federal budget and give little back.
The death of the jobs they traditionally had is true, as is the benefits given to inner city groups.
But programs for retraining, relocation, and assistance are ignored.
In a world that is changing they don't want to change.
Whether it's in response to changing market and manufacturing demands, or changes in culture and expectations.
And there are groups inside that who have genuinely been screwed over and ignored.
In short, there's not really a common ground to be met.
I have family who are hardcore Trump supporters and talk proudly about what they'd do to atheists if they met one. Or to those blacks that they don't like, who mostly do the same things the whites they hold up for pity do.

I agree with your post, but I'm curious about what you mean by the highlighted part?

[ahhell]

Originally Posted by Fudbucker

We should ignore the President calling black people "dogs" and "low IQ" and the thousand other horrible things he's done and said? And if there's a tape of Trump using the N-word? Should we ignore that?

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

You already know he says offensive things. Do you really need to keep listening so you can be individually offended by each new one? Do you enjoy taking offense? Far be it from me to interfere if that's your kink, but otherwise it seems like a waste of time.

This is why conservatives no longer listen to claims of racism. Trump calls everyone dogs and dumb but Fudbucker feels its important that he also calls black people dumb.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.c5ef4cee66a1

Sure, Trump is probably racist and definitely panders to racist but him calling one or two black people dumb isn't evidence of it but it is evidence his opponents biases.

Originally Posted by Fudbucker

The President, to a large extent, is the spokesperson for our society. As the leader of the most powerful country on Earth, of course his words matter, and of course you know this. As you can see, many of us have drawn a line, and the President has stepped over it. For me, it was Access Hollywood. For others, it was Charlottesville.
.

In fairness, I agree with this. I drew the line a long time before either of those events, and suspect you did too. The access hollywood tape was pretty meh. He admitted to kissing women without there permission which is much less than what Clinton had been accused of. He then went on to marvel at what women let him get away with because of his celebrity and used the grab em by the pussy as a clear exaggerated example. It really didn't show anything new about him. IMHO, anyone who says that was the line in the sand had already made up there mind. Which is fine, they should just admit it though.

Originally Posted by Fudbucker

What a lot of us cannot understand is how some of you still haven't drawn that line.

I understand how some haven't. Its just tribalism and in some case a willingness to make a deal with a devil to advance there agenda, that's a pretty small proportion of his support though. If folks on the left stopped at language like this I wouldn't complain but so often they go onto say explain why Trump's supporters are are irredeemable racist morons. Or something that comes across that way if you are a Trump supporter. Which will only push them farther into the tribal mindset. That's just human nature. If you challenge someones tribal identity, they will cleave to it more.

[ShadowSot]

Originally Posted by kellyb

I agree with your post, but I'm curious about what you mean by the highlighted part?

Just the perception that more aid and concern goes to people in cities, specifically to minorities which they see as getting more favor than them.
In general they perceive things as being more favorable towards the cities than them.
Which has a ring of truth, in that there's more that can be done for people living in a city than out in the boonies.


* I'm exhausted so I am not sure I've explained it right.

[kellyb]

Originally Posted by ShadowSot

Just the perception that more aid and concern goes to people in cities, specifically to minorities which they see as getting more favor than them.
In general they perceive things as being more favorable towards the cities than them.
Which has a ring of truth, in that there's more that can be done for people living in a city than out in the boonies.


* I'm exhausted so I am not sure I've explained it right.

Maybe, but I think it might be mostly or completely an illusion that people in the city can or do get more. Maybe a few things like proximity to a partially federally funded sliding scale medical clinic that can prescribe stuff like antibiotics.

[ahhell]

There's a good point there. Things have noticeably gotten worse for lower class white men over the last generation. They see their neighborhoods changing and immigrants generally doing better than they are or at least they think they are. Things have actually gotten better for most minorities in the same time frame. Even if those lower class white men really do still have more opportunity than those minority the relative change in status is bound to make them nervous. Then the rhetoric on the left comes across as, "white men have it great so what are they complaining about?" Those white men who don't really have it great and never had any real power are bound to react poorly.

Even if its all just perception and not reality, there are reasons they perceive it that way.

[kellyb]

Originally Posted by ahhell

There's a good point there. Things have noticeably gotten worse for lower class white men over the last generation. They see their neighborhoods changing and immigrants generally doing better than they are or at least they think they are. Things have actually gotten better for most minorities in the same time frame. Even if those lower class white men really do still have more opportunity than those minority the relative change in status is bound to make them nervous. Then the rhetoric on the left comes across as, "white men have it great so what are they complaining about?" Those white men who don't really have it great and never had any real power are bound to react poorly.

Even if its all just perception and not reality, there are reasons they perceive it that way.

The relative status change is real. Gains towards equality in status among races actually has lowered the relative status of white people. I do think that's part of the rightwing freakout.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by Fudbucker

The President, to a large extent, is the spokesperson for our society. As the leader of the most powerful country on Earth, of course his words matter, and of course you know this. As you can see, many of us have drawn a line, and the President has stepped over it. For me, it was Access Hollywood. For others, it was Charlottesville.

So he's crossed the line for you. Do you expect him to cross back? Now that he's crossed, do you care about how many times he crosses it again?

What new information do you gain by continuing to pay attention to everything he says? Is he actually saying anything new? Do you hope to accomplish something by listening to him? What do you think that will be?

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Yes, the FCC, ICE, FBI, CIA, NPS, and Depts of Labor, Education, and Energy suffered no damage from the Civil War. Neither did NASA, or NATO, or the UN.

It was also an entirely different kind of crisis, not the kind that attacks the integrity of democracy itself.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Other countries seem to be taking them seriously, as are those investigating Trump as he seems to keep making damaging admissions on Twitter. The courts also agreed that a president's Tweets are official enough to fall under recordkeeping laws.

Look twitter is like the white house press room, you can't take anything that is said in either as any kind of fact or official statement. Really you can never hold any republican to anything they have ever said, because twitter or some such.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by WilliamSeger

You can't even be honest about that. He acknowledged that the documents were a fraud. He still believes the story that they supposedly documented, and he isn't the only one. But no, Rather got duped, therefore not only was the whole story a fraud, but Rather has no credibility, therefore his comment about having a President who cannot be believed can be dismissed with a funny gif.

But the president getting duped by birtherism means nothing he still has credibility because birtherism is a sensible position for any republican to believe.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by ahhell

T The access hollywood tape was pretty meh. He admitted to kissing women without there permission

And the whole groping thing but hey what red blooded male hasn't forcibly groped women? Or barged in on Teens changing. These are just things every man has done and don't trust anyone who claims otherwise.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by kellyb

The relative status change is real. Gains towards equality in status among races actually has lowered the relative status of white people. I do think that's part of the rightwing freakout.

Well that and they make an easy thing for the last 40 years growth in productivity not being expressed in wages. But why blame the owner class for that when you can blame the darkies?