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Tags donald trump , Omarosa Manigault , Trump appointees , Trump supporters

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Old 15th August 2018, 01:47 PM   #81
MattusMaximus
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In reference to the OP:
There's a reason why Trump's approval ratings cannot crack above the lower 40s or upper 30s. He's just a self-absorbed, arrogant jerk.
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Old 15th August 2018, 01:51 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You should mostly ignore what he says, yes. What he does is a different matter, but you don't need to read his tweets to follow that.
Good point.

I encourage everyone here who is interested in doing something constructive to push back against Trump to stop hanging on his every word. Instead, get involved in politics to bring about effective change. This article emphasizes this point quite well...

Quote:
“... being anti-Trump is not enough. To build an electoral majority Democrats must come together and embrace an economic policy agenda that boldly and decisively reclaims the majoritarian center. And this will require sacrifices from progressives and centrists alike.”
https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...rd-left-219354
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Old 15th August 2018, 05:52 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by MattusMaximus View Post
Good point.

I encourage everyone here who is interested in doing something constructive to push back against Trump to stop hanging on his every word. Instead, get involved in politics to bring about effective change. This article emphasizes this point quite well...


https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...rd-left-219354
Thanks for the link! That article articulates a point I've tried to make a few times, but failed to.
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Old 15th August 2018, 05:55 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
I think it was Dan Rather who pointed out that there could come a crisis where it's very important that the American public believes Trump, but most of them won't. That's your new normal; I greatly prefer the old one.
The tragicomedy of appealing to the authority of Dan Rather aside, this isn't the "new" normal at all. Do you think half the country would have believed Hillary Clinton, in a similar situation? Or Barack Obama? Or George W. Bush? And I bet it goes back even further than that.

Hell, we once had a president who had so thoroughly lost the public's unified trust that half the country started a war over it.

Special pleading is not the way to argue that Trump is especially bad.

Also, you really shouldn't cite Dan Rather as an authority on anything.
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Old 15th August 2018, 06:06 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
So he's crossed the line for you. Do you expect him to cross back? Now that he's crossed, do you care about how many times he crosses it again?

What new information do you gain by continuing to pay attention to everything he says? Is he actually saying anything new? Do you hope to accomplish something by listening to him? What do you think that will be?
Trump uses Twitter to make official statements. At least three times, new policy or changes have been announced first by Trump on Twitter. What he says there matters a lot, even if you discount knowing how the bully pulpit is steering national discourse.

It's practically a civic duty to keep at least somewhat aware of what he is saying there. That what he is saying is generally horrible doesn't change that. The new information is what fresh kind hell he's vomited from his abyss.

Not all horrible things are the same after all.
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Old 15th August 2018, 06:24 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Trump uses Twitter to make official statements. At least three times, new policy or changes have been announced first by Trump on Twitter.
Another way to look at it is that Trump spews a lot of random crap on Twitter, and occasionally takes action on something he referred to on Twitter. So instead of saying, "this is important!" about every tweet, you could conceivably wait and see what he actually does. That's what I do, and it works pretty well. Of course, I'm tuning out all the overhyped buffoonery, so my view of his presidency is substantially less the-sky-is-falling than the view seen by people who who insist on taking all his tweets seriously.
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Old 15th August 2018, 06:47 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Another way to look at it is that Trump spews a lot of random crap on Twitter, and occasionally takes action on something he referred to on Twitter. So instead of saying, "this is important!" about every tweet
To many people, it's important that the president "spews a lot of random crap on Twitter, and occasionally takes action on something he referred to on Twitter". It's not good that the president of anywhere behave like that, much less of the U. Freaking S. We're supposed to be better than that. He's turned us into the garbage television he once performed in.
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Old 15th August 2018, 07:15 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
To many people, it's important that the president "spews a lot of random crap on Twitter, and occasionally takes action on something he referred to on Twitter". It's not good that the president of anywhere behave like that, much less of the U. Freaking S. We're supposed to be better than that. He's turned us into the garbage television he once performed in.
I guess the SCOTUS appointment was that important. And the Hillary hatred.
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Old 16th August 2018, 08:27 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
I guess the SCOTUS appointment was that important.
Damn right it was. I'm talking about the makeup of the Supreme Court, and you're telling me my priority should be what's happening on Twitter. That's pretty messed up.
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Old 16th August 2018, 08:46 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Damn right it was. I'm talking about the makeup of the Supreme Court, and you're telling me my priority should be what's happening on Twitter. That's pretty messed up.
Please quote a post where someone said the mad Twitter behavior of President Crazy is more important than his other behavior. Do you not understand how multiple things can be important, and to different degrees?
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Old 16th August 2018, 09:12 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The tragicomedy of appealing to the authority of Dan Rather aside, this isn't the "new" normal at all. Do you think half the country would have believed Hillary Clinton, in a similar situation? Or Barack Obama? Or George W. Bush? And I bet it goes back even further than that.

Hell, we once had a president who had so thoroughly lost the public's unified trust that half the country started a war over it.

Special pleading is not the way to argue that Trump is especially bad.

Also, you really shouldn't cite Dan Rather as an authority on anything.

When you attack a man of integrity to defend a man who has none, that says more about you than it does Rather.
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Old 16th August 2018, 09:16 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Please quote a post where someone said the mad Twitter behavior of President Crazy is more important than his other behavior.
Done and done.

Quote:
Do you not understand how multiple things can be important, and to different degrees?
Oh, absolutely. That's why I care about SCOTUS appointments much more than tweets. And I already quoted Fudbucker chiding me for that priority.
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Old 16th August 2018, 09:22 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
When you attack a man of integrity to defend a man who has none, that says more about you than it does Rather.
First, Dan Rather isn't a man of integrity.

Second, your argument depends on an appeal to authority, which merits attack on that basis alone.

Third, your argument depends on special pleading, which merits attack on that basis alone.

Fourth, your rebuttal depends on an ad hominem, and thus doesn't actually defend against the attack your argument has earned on its own merits.

Fifth, I have reported your personalization of the debate, attacking the arguer instead of the argument.
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Old 16th August 2018, 09:30 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
You can't even be honest about that. He acknowledged that the documents were a fraud.
Long after he should have, and after his attempts to defend their authenticity failed.

Quote:
He still believes the story that they supposedly documented, and he isn't the only one.
Seriously? You're using "fake but accurate" as a defense of Rather's credibility?

Bwahahahahaha!

Quote:
But no, Rather got duped
Rather was a willing participant in his own beclowning.

Quote:
therefore not only was the whole story a fraud, but Rather has no credibility
Yes.

Quote:
therefore his comment about having a President who cannot be believed can be dismissed with a funny gif.
If you want to make an argument about Trump's credibility independent from Dan Rather, go ahead. There's fertile ground for criticism. But Dan Rather isn't saying anything new. The only reason to bring him into this is as an appeal to authority. But it's one of the worst authorities you could pick on the issue of credibility. So yeah, I'm going to dismiss anything Rather has to say about credibility as being a joke. Because Rather is a joke. And the memo forger didn't make him a joke, he did that to himself.
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Old 16th August 2018, 09:34 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Trump uses Twitter to make official statements. At least three times, new policy or changes have been announced first by Trump on Twitter. What he says there matters a lot, even if you discount knowing how the bully pulpit is steering national discourse.
You should know better than to pay attention to official policies of the executive. That would be like taking anything the press secretary says literally.
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Old 16th August 2018, 09:38 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Fifth, I have reported your personalization of the debate, attacking the arguer instead of the argument.

If you read it, I'm good.
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Old 16th August 2018, 09:42 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
If you want to make an argument about Trump's credibility independent from Dan Rather, go ahead. There's fertile ground for criticism. But Dan Rather isn't saying anything new. The only reason to bring him into this is as an appeal to authority. But it's one of the worst authorities you could pick on the issue of credibility. So yeah, I'm going to dismiss anything Rather has to say about credibility as being a joke. Because Rather is a joke. And the memo forger didn't make him a joke, he did that to himself.
And look at how the beclowning continues. WilliamSeger wants to talk about Trump's credibility. But having hung his argument on Dan Rather's credibility, he's now stuck having to talk about Dan Rather instead of Trump.

The funniest part is, the basic premise is actually worth serious consideration, even if it came from no higher authority than WilliamSeger himself. There was no need to gild the lily by dragging Dan Rather into it.
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Old 16th August 2018, 09:42 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by MattusMaximus View Post
In reference to the OP:
There's a reason why Trump's approval ratings cannot crack above the lower 40s or upper 30s. He's just a self-absorbed, arrogant jerk.

Rasmussen had him at 50% approval yesterday.
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Old 16th August 2018, 09:49 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Rasmussen had him at 50% approval yesterday.
Deplorable.
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Old 16th August 2018, 09:59 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
And look at how the beclowning continues. WilliamSeger wants to talk about Trump's credibility. But having hung his argument on Dan Rather's credibility, he's now stuck having to talk about Dan Rather instead of Trump.

The funniest part is, the basic premise is actually worth serious consideration, even if it came from no higher authority than WilliamSeger himself. There was no need to gild the lily by dragging Dan Rather into it.

Nope, what we're seeing is Trump and the trumpers at the last bulwark, trying to defend the indefensible with no weapons left except slandering all critics, hoping to put the critics on the defensive. I'm not playing that game anymore, but since you're in to logic stuff, here's a tip: a prediction is not an "argument."
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Old 16th August 2018, 10:12 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
And look at how the beclowning continues. WilliamSeger wants to talk about Trump's credibility. But having hung his argument on Dan Rather's credibility, he's now stuck having to talk about Dan Rather instead of Trump.
No, it was Ziggurat and you who kept harping on about Rather's 'credibility'. And we all know why. Deflection and ad hominem attacks are favorite tactics of the right.

Quote:
The funniest part is, the basic premise is actually worth serious consideration, even if it came from no higher authority than WilliamSeger himself. There was no need to gild the lily by dragging Dan Rather into it.
All WilliamSeger said was "I think it was Dan Rather who pointed out that there could come a crisis where it's very important that the American public believes Trump, but most of them won't.". But the mere mention of Rather's name was enough to bring the attack dogs out.

Time and time again we see these same tactics coming the right - and frankly I'm getting sick of it. Why bother even trying to find common ground when all you do is rip us to pieces?
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Old 16th August 2018, 10:44 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
No, it was Ziggurat and you who kept harping on about Rather's 'credibility'. And we all know why. Deflection and ad hominem attacks are favorite tactics of the right.

All WilliamSeger said was "I think it was Dan Rather who pointed out that there could come a crisis where it's very important that the American public believes Trump, but most of them won't.". But the mere mention of Rather's name was enough to bring the attack dogs out.

Time and time again we see these same tactics coming the right - and frankly I'm getting sick of it. Why bother even trying to find common ground when all you do is rip us to pieces?
Hell Trumps supporters know better than to listen to what he says, that was the whole point of the take him seriously not literally. You aren't supposed to believe anything he says, that is a feature.
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Old 16th August 2018, 11:03 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
No, it was Ziggurat and you who kept harping on about Rather's 'credibility'. And we all know why. Deflection and ad hominem attacks are favorite tactics of the right.

All WilliamSeger said was "I think it was Dan Rather who pointed out that there could come a crisis where it's very important that the American public believes Trump, but most of them won't.". But the mere mention of Rather's name was enough to bring the attack dogs out.

Time and time again we see these same tactics coming the right - and frankly I'm getting sick of it. Why bother even trying to find common ground when all you do is rip us to pieces?
I also rebutted WilliamSeger's argument independently from his appeal to Dan Rather. Why did you miss that?
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Old 16th August 2018, 11:21 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I also rebutted WilliamSeger's argument independently from his appeal to Dan Rather. Why did you miss that?

You're digging the hole deeper. Even if you took "there could come a crisis..." as an "argument," then a "rebuttal" would be something along the lines of "no, that won't happen because..." If you want to say that the prediction is based on an argument and your rebuttal is "Dan Rather has no credibility," then I suggest you identify the argument before attempting to rebut it.

Last edited by WilliamSeger; 16th August 2018 at 11:31 AM.
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Old 16th August 2018, 11:22 AM   #105
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I love a Trump supporter accusing Dan Rather of having no creditbility.
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Old 16th August 2018, 11:30 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
I wonder if there are any conservatives left here who think debasing the office this much was worth a Supreme Court pick.
I think LSSBB counts.
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Old 16th August 2018, 11:32 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Tero View Post
Things we can agree on:
Ice cream good. Cancer bad. Not everybody should wear stretchy outfits for sports. Trump cheats at golf.
The first three are self evident. The last is plausible, but I've only heard testimony from folks I don't know much about.

Okay, very plausible.
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Old 16th August 2018, 12:51 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Another way to look at it is that Trump spews a lot of random crap on Twitter, and occasionally takes action on something he referred to on Twitter. So instead of saying, "this is important!" about every tweet, you could conceivably wait and see what he actually does. That's what I do, and it works pretty well. Of course, I'm tuning out all the overhyped buffoonery, so my view of his presidency is substantially less the-sky-is-falling than the view seen by people who who insist on taking all his tweets seriously.
The spew you get to matters. At present, a majority of Republicans believe that the free press is mostly the enemy of the people. We all know where that comes from (not just Twitter, admittedly).
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Old 16th August 2018, 12:56 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
And look at how the beclowning continues. WilliamSeger wants to talk about Trump's credibility. But having hung his argument on Dan Rather's credibility, he's now stuck having to talk about Dan Rather instead of Trump.

The funniest part is, the basic premise is actually worth serious consideration, even if it came from no higher authority than WilliamSeger himself. There was no need to gild the lily by dragging Dan Rather into it.
Um, I'm not sure, but it seems to me that you're disparaging Zig's irrelevant rebuttal. After all, Rather's comment stands or falls on its own, but it was Zig who brought in Rather's reputation.
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Old 16th August 2018, 01:04 PM   #110
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Best as I can tell, the only presently achievable "common ground" is six feet under it.
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Old 16th August 2018, 01:58 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
Best as I can tell, the only presently achievable "common ground" is six feet under it.
Not if that ground can be stripmined for profit!
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Old 16th August 2018, 02:45 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Um, I'm not sure, but it seems to me that you're disparaging Zig's irrelevant rebuttal. After all, Rather's comment stands or falls on its own, but it was Zig who brought in Rather's reputation.
WilliamSeger appealed to Dan Rather. Remarking on the quality of that authority is entirely appropriate.

It's also entirely appropriate to point and laugh, because appealing to Dan Rather is really ******* funny.
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Old 16th August 2018, 03:30 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
WilliamSeger appealed to Dan Rather. Remarking on the quality of that authority is entirely appropriate.

It's also entirely appropriate to point and laugh, because appealing to Dan Rather is really ******* funny.

"Appealed?" I simply cited my best recollection of the source of an excellent point, lest I be accused of pretending to be wiser than I am, but it might have been some other wise person. And I can't help but notice that another smarmy smear of Rather while ironically accusing someone else of logical fallacies is the best you can do for a "rebuttal" of that point. Looks like we're finished here.
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Old 16th August 2018, 04:04 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
WilliamSeger appealed to Dan Rather. Remarking on the quality of that authority is entirely appropriate.

It's also entirely appropriate to point and laugh, because appealing to Dan Rather is really ******* funny.
It wasn't an appeal to authority, but only an attribution (one of which he seemed unsure). We should focus on the plausibility of what was said, not the probable author.
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Old 16th August 2018, 05:27 PM   #115
theprestige
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
It wasn't an appeal to authority, but only an attribution (one of which he seemed unsure). We should focus on the plausibility of what was said, not the probable author.
Motte and bailey. If people accept Dan Rather's authority, then that was what was intended all along. And if not? "I didn't really mean for you to consider Dan Rather. I just mentioned him because reasons."

And I actually posted a rebuttal of the plausibility, setting aside the appeal to authority. But everybody seems to be ignoring that, in favor of talking about Dan Rather. Making fun of Dan Rather, and of arguments that depend on Dan Rather, is fine by me, so I'm happy to play along. If you want to talk about something else, feel free to change the subject any time.
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Old 16th August 2018, 05:31 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Rasmussen had him at 50% approval yesterday.
Link?
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Old 17th August 2018, 12:35 AM   #117
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Dan Rather's observation about the risk of Trump being not believed in the event of a real crisis is something any observant, thinking person might make. Trump's demonstrably voluminous lying--a deluge of utterly unsurpassed proportion--makes such a notion spring spontaneously to the discerning mind. Rather's checkered past in the reliability department has nothing at all to do with it.

And I did not get the slightest impression of Rather having been appealed to as an 'authority'; the reporting of his remark here was simply attributive as I read it.

The Trumpist's default position of smearing detractors in order to distract is as maddeningly infantile as it is predictable.
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Old 17th August 2018, 01:25 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
My bad. No common ground yet, after all. Unless we agree that nobody - not even you - is really taking Trump's tweets that seriously.
This was writte 2 days ago, so excuse my being late, but here we have fundamental DISagreement!

NO, not "nobody" is taking Trump's tweet seriously, nor are they MEANT to not be taken seriously. They are meant to be taken seriously by very large numbers of Americans, and tens of millions do take them seriously - agreed?

However, your post implies that Trump's tweets are, as a rule, not true, not fair, not good, or lack any other quality that frustrates their being taken seriously. I agree with you on that!

So why does the POTUS take valuable time out of his tight daily schedule to tweet stuff that sane, rational people oughtn't take seriously?
-> Because he consciously, with focus, seeks to activate the insane, irrational among Americans into his employ.

That cannot be a good thing, nor should it be ignored or downplayed. This is the very core, the stand-out characteristic of the Trump presidency: that it goes out if its way to seek, find and use the very WORST of America.

It's really simple: any acceptable President would not tweet day in day out things - hateful, petty, small, nasty things - that nobody ought to take seriously.
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Old 17th August 2018, 01:25 AM   #119
WilliamSeger
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Dan Rather's observation about the risk of Trump being not believed in the event of a real crisis is something any observant, thinking person might make. Trump's demonstrably voluminous lying--a deluge of utterly unsurpassed proportion--makes such a notion spring spontaneously to the discerning mind. Rather's checkered past in the reliability department has nothing at all to do with it.

And I did not get the slightest impression of Rather having been appealed to as an 'authority'; the reporting of his remark here was simply attributive as I read it.

The Trumpist's default position of smearing detractors in order to distract is as maddeningly infantile as it is predictable.

There could be a crisis that tests the prediction if an impeachment trial for obstruction of justice comes down to believing either Comey's story or Trump's denials, since Americans don't like James Comey, but they trust him way more than they do President Trump, poll says.
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Old 17th August 2018, 01:27 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That's the secret of the American presidency. You don't actually have to take everything the President says seriously.
Bollocks.
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