Where is the Common Ground? - Page 4

Oystein · 17th August 2018, 01:31 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

You should mostly ignore what he says, yes. What he does is a different matter, but you don't need to read his tweets to follow that.

Bollocks. Utter and dangerous bollocks.

What a President does for a job is saying things.

Oystein · 17th August 2018, 01:50 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

WilliamSeger appealed to Dan Rather. ...

No, he *credited* Rather, which is the courteous thing to do if you recreate someone else's brainchild.

Oystein · 17th August 2018, 01:51 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Motte and bailey. If people accept Dan Rather's authority, then that was what was intended all along. And if not? "I didn't really mean for you to consider Dan Rather. I just mentioned him because reasons."

...

Bollocks.

Foolmewunz · 17th August 2018, 02:22 AM

Apparently, since this has turned into the traditional tit-for-tat bickering, the answer to the OP is that there is no common ground.

I'll try to establish a base line from the left. I can find common ground with fiscal conservatives who break from Trump and the monster that the Tea Party and Alt-Right have made of the Republican Party.

I don't guarantee I agree with them on everything (well, on anything) but I can at least discuss things with them.

With Trumpistas? I don't think there's anything to discuss any longer. They are beyond hope. With Trump apologists? Pretty close to the same thing. There's a bit more hope (but just a bit) for the conservatives who run away from the Trump name/brand but still think it's their duty to run interference for him because he's the de facto leader of the party that represents their faction.

jimbob · 17th August 2018, 04:15 AM

Originally Posted by Fudbucker

"Wacky Omarosa, who got fired 3 times on the Apprentice, now got fired for the last time. She never made it, never will. She begged me for a job, tears in her eyes, I said Ok. People in the White House hated her. She was vicious, but not smart. I would rarely see her but heard....

While I know it’s “not presidential” to take on a lowlife like Omarosa, and while I would rather not be doing so, this is a modern day form of communication and I know the Fake News Media will be working overtime to make even Wacky Omarosa look legitimate as possible. Sorry!"

Can you imagine what would have happened if Obama or Bush had said something this retarded? And this is just example A in the ongoing **** show.

How can anyone take a Trump supporter seriously? What common ground does an intelligent person have with these people?

It really shows how good a judge of character he is.

jimbob · 17th August 2018, 04:40 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Dan Rather. Criticizing other people for lost credibility.

I gather that Dan Rather isn't very credible, then.

In which case it is indeed ironic that the POTUS is less credible.

jimbob · 17th August 2018, 04:46 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

So he's crossed the line for you. Do you expect him to cross back? Now that he's crossed, do you care about how many times he crosses it again?

What new information do you gain by continuing to pay attention to everything he says? Is he actually saying anything new? Do you hope to accomplish something by listening to him? What do you think that will be?

Maybe, he will eventually cross the line for someone else.

Maybe he'll start admitting to crimes on Twitter

dudalb · 17th August 2018, 11:41 AM

It's hard to have common ground with a Personality Cult, since a Personality Cult if founded on the idea that Dear Leader Is Right, and to oppose or criticize him in any way is Evil.

jimbob · 17th August 2018, 11:49 AM

well said Dudalb.

Of course, several will complain that you are saying mean things about them.

dudalb · 17th August 2018, 11:52 AM

I think a couple of the Trump supporters here are not True Belivers in Trump but Mickey Mouse Republicans....they will support anybody in the White House who is a Republican. They would support any Republican the same way they are supporting Trump. With the hard core members of the Personalty Cult, it's Trump or nobody.

ahhell · 17th August 2018, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

I think a couple of the Trump supporters here are not True Belivers in Trump but Mickey Mouse Republicans....they will support anybody in the White House who is a Republican. They would support any Republican the same way they are supporting Trump. With the hard core members of the Personalty Cult, it's Trump or nobody.

My sense is that they would not defend any republican as much. I very much believe that Trump has really ramped up the tribalist aspect to American poltics(not just the obvious racism) but the tribes of left/Dem/progr vs cons/Rep. Which has caused a lot of Rs to circle the wagons more than they would have for just about any other president. Which is why I tend to sound like I'm defending him or his supporters. I think we really need to ratchet done the "They're all horrible racists" talk if we want to get trump out of office or elect dems this year.

As I've said before, even before Trump being a republican was defacto evidence of racism and or fascism for a lot of lefties. This did two things, it made the GOP and conservatives stop trying and stop listening to the accusation.

This is also why I've argued against conflating all the blanking while black stores and really take issue with OPs like this. A. Very few people are actually irredeemable, I recently heard a great interview with a from Neo-Nazi skin head that demonstrates exactly that. B. Acting like everything trump does is obviously racist just keeps his supporters from seeing the actual racism. As someone said, if everything is racist then nothing is racist.

kellyb · 17th August 2018, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by ahhell

As I've said before, even before Trump being a republican was defacto evidence of racism and or fascism for a lot of lefties. This did two things, it made the GOP and conservatives stop trying and stop listening to the accusation.

It made them stop pretending to be non-racist and non-fascist?

"We" "far leftists" get accused of being authoritarian racists all the time. Do you think we're about to start actually becoming that as a result of false accusations?

kellyb · 17th August 2018, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

I think a couple of the Trump supporters here are not True Belivers in Trump but Mickey Mouse Republicans....they will support anybody in the White House who is a Republican. They would support any Republican the same way they are supporting Trump. With the hard core members of the Personalty Cult, it's Trump or nobody.

You think they'd support Bernie Sanders or someone like him if he ran as a Republican and somehow won?

ahhell · 17th August 2018, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by kellyb

It made them stop pretending to be non-racist and non-fascist?

"We" "far leftists" get accused of being authoritarian racists all the time. Do you think we're about to start actually becoming that as a result of false accusations?

It hasn't made you change your mind about anything either has it? Do actually pay attention to a conservative that accuses you of racism? Do you ever think, "I wonder if he has a point?" It seems unlikely.

Originally Posted by kellyb

You think they'd support Bernie Sanders or someone like him if he ran as a Republican and somehow won?

I think they would. As I've mentioned, there's decent research showing folks will agree or disagree with an idea depending on who the claimed source is.

https://youarenotsosmart.com/2018/02...erything-else/

https://youarenotsosmart.com/transcr...al-psychology/

Ziggurat · 17th August 2018, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by ahhell

It hasn't made you change your mind about anything either has it? Do actually pay attention to a conservative that accuses you of racism? Do you ever think, "I wonder if he has a point?" It seems unlikely.

I think they would. As I've mentioned, there's decent research showing folks will agree or disagree with an idea depending on who the claimed source is.

https://youarenotsosmart.com/2018/02...erything-else/

https://youarenotsosmart.com/transcr...al-psychology/

You have badly misunderstood the purpose of this thread. The point is to demand why the other side isn't making concessions to your side. Attempting to understand them is effectively off topic here, and might even subject you to moderator action.

Get with the program and start blaming your opponents for everything that's wrong.

kellyb · 17th August 2018, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by ahhell

It hasn't made you change your mind about anything either has it? Do actually pay attention to a conservative that accuses you of racism? Do you ever think, "I wonder if he has a point?" It seems unlikely.

No, I have never paid attention to false accusations, to my recollection.
Are you saying the rightwingers used to?

Quote:

I think they would. As I've mentioned, there's decent research showing folks will agree or disagree with an idea depending on who the claimed source is.

https://youarenotsosmart.com/2018/02...erything-else/

https://youarenotsosmart.com/transcr...al-psychology/

I know that's a real effect, but a lot of rightwingers are primed to only respond to a certain type of rage, and they seek strong, authoritarian leaders.

This free (relatively short, scientific, entertaining) ebook is kind of crucial reading for all skeptics, in my opinion:
https://theauthoritarians.org/

kellyb · 17th August 2018, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

You have badly misunderstood the purpose of this thread. The point is to demand why the other side isn't making concessions to your side. Attempting to understand them is effectively off topic here, and might even subject you to moderator action.

Get with the program and start blaming your opponents for everything that's wrong.

The OP was just venting, but once a thread is out there, different people will use it for their own purposes.

But I know you're just venting, too.

Delvo · 17th August 2018, 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by ahhell

My sense is that they would not defend any republican as much.

No other has been attacked so much (because no other has earned it so much). "Resistance" equals the force that's applied. Put a 2-pound object on a table, and the table pushes up against it with 2 pounds of force. Put a 15-pound object on the same table, and the table pushes up against it with 15 pounds of force. (Also known in psychology as the "backfire effect")

Originally Posted by ahhell

As I've said before, even before Trump being a republican was defacto evidence of racism and or fascism for a lot of lefties.

It's become so automatic for a lot of them over the years that they don't seem to even be fully aware of what they're doing themselves anymore. The thread where they're simultaneously saying that any & all of their opposition consists of racists/nazis/whatevers but also gloating about how little support a recent racist/nazi gathering got (and most of them in general get) is truly a dizzying sight to behold.

Originally Posted by ahhell

if everything is racist then nothing is racist.

It's funny that Dan Rather's forged-letter episode came up, because the left's reaction to that was one of the most classic examples ever. "Encyclopedia brownshirts". Literally (literally literally), failing to fall for the left's lies equals being a Nazi.

And this was long before Trump, back when some are now claiming that they totally weren't acting the same back then as they are now. No "reich wing", no calling the White House a "plantation house", no saying that some bit of news made the President, VP, or members of the cabinet so happy they'd "goosestep around the Oval Office" in celebration... none of it ever happened.

Originally Posted by ahhell

I think we really need to ratchet do{wn} the "They're all horrible racists" talk if we want to get trump out of office or elect dems this year.

Anything will be sufficient this year, but the effect will wear off if the Democrats' name-calling wing retains the internal power they've held for ages instead of losing enough internal power to the party's focusing-on-policies-to-make-life-better-here wing.

* * *

Common ground is to be found not by navigating along the left-right spectrum, but by navigating along the populism-elitism spectrum. Some of Trump's campaign talk (which he has not followed through on in office) was identical to some of Bernie's talking points, and has been very popular coming from both of them. Trump won, and continues to please his rally audiences, by appearing as far from an elitist as possible, and was against an opponent whom nobody could ever mistake for anything but an ultra-elitist.

WilliamSeger · 18th August 2018, 06:39 AM

Originally Posted by Delvo

No other has been attacked so much (because no other has earned it so much). "Resistance" equals the force that's applied. Put a 2-pound object on a table, and the table pushes up against it with 2 pounds of force. Put a 15-pound object on the same table, and the table pushes up against it with 15 pounds of force. (Also known in psychology as the "backfire effect")

It's become so automatic for a lot of them over the years that they don't seem to even be fully aware of what they're doing themselves anymore. The thread where they're simultaneously saying that any & all of their opposition consists of racists/nazis/whatevers but also gloating about how little support a recent racist/nazi gathering got (and most of them in general get) is truly a dizzying sight to behold.

It's funny that Dan Rather's forged-letter episode came up, because the left's reaction to that was one of the most classic examples ever. "Encyclopedia brownshirts". Literally (literally literally), failing to fall for the left's lies equals being a Nazi.

And this was long before Trump, back when some are now claiming that they totally weren't acting the same back then as they are now. No "reich wing", no calling the White House a "plantation house", no saying that some bit of news made the President, VP, or members of the cabinet so happy they'd "goosestep around the Oval Office" in celebration... none of it ever happened.

Anything will be sufficient this year, but the effect will wear off if the Democrats' name-calling wing retains the internal power they've held for ages instead of losing enough internal power to the party's focusing-on-policies-to-make-life-better-here wing.

* * *

Common ground is to be found not by navigating along the left-right spectrum, but by navigating along the populism-elitism spectrum. Some of Trump's campaign talk (which he has not followed through on in office) was identical to some of Bernie's talking points, and has been very popular coming from both of them. Trump won, and continues to please his rally audiences, by appearing as far from an elitist as possible, and was against an opponent whom nobody could ever mistake for anything but an ultra-elitist.

What a pantload. If you want to understand most social issues, you need to look along the empathy-apathy spectrum first, and trumpers' hypersensitivity to being called racists is a good example. No, I don't believe all trumpers are racists; I think a goodly number of them just don't care that Trump and "half" his base are, because it's not an issue that affects them personally, but they know they need that other "half" to maintain political power. They just don't care that racism has real consequences to real people and that Trump's absurd pseudo-populism demagoguery is firing up that base. Then you want to act all offended if anyone points that out?

BrooklynBaby · 18th August 2018, 08:30 AM

Originally Posted by WilliamSeger

What a pantload. If you want to understand most social issues, you need to look along the empathy-apathy spectrum first, and trumpers' hypersensitivity to being called racists is a good example. No, I don't believe all trumpers are racists; I think a goodly number of them just don't care that Trump and "half" his base are, because it's not an issue that affects them personally, but they know they need that other "half" to maintain political power. They just don't care that racism has real consequences to real people and that Trump's absurd pseudo-populism demagoguery is firing up that base. Then you want to act all offended if anyone points that out?

Where is your evidence that I'm a racist? I'm definitely in "half" of Trump's base.

WilliamSeger · 18th August 2018, 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby

Where is your evidence that I'm a racist? I'm definitely in "half" of Trump's base.

You apparently didn't understand my post. Which "half" you're in is something only you can know (ETA: unless you tell us you're a racist, as many do).

Ziggurat · 18th August 2018, 08:50 AM

Originally Posted by WilliamSeger

What a pantload. If you want to understand most social issues, you need to look along the empathy-apathy spectrum first, and trumpers' hypersensitivity to being called racists is a good example. No, I don't believe all trumpers are racists; I think a goodly number of them just don't care that Trump and "half" his base are, because it's not an issue that affects them personally, but they know they need that other "half" to maintain political power. They just don't care that racism has real consequences to real people and that Trump's absurd pseudo-populism demagoguery is firing up that base. Then you want to act all offended if anyone points that out?

Now this is a post done right: blame the other side entirely for any failure to find common ground. That's the proper way to post in the politics section.

BrooklynBaby · 18th August 2018, 09:00 AM

Originally Posted by WilliamSeger

You apparently didn't understand my post. Which "half" you're in is something only you can know (ETA: unless you tell us you're a racist, as many do).

I certainly do understand your post. It says half of Trump's base is racist and the other half doesn't care. You pulled the "half" out of thin air and can't possibly support it. You can't even tell me which half I'm in, let alone 30 million other people in my half who voted for Trump. The left has a habit of making things up and using their newly created "evidence" in debate. Must be what they teach in graduate school.

WilliamSeger · 18th August 2018, 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Now this is a post done right: blame the other side entirely for any failure to find common ground. That's the proper way to post in the politics section.

What's the common ground between empathy and apathy? Being selective about whom one has empathy for?

kellyb · 18th August 2018, 09:16 AM

Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby

I certainly do understand your post. It says half of Trump's base is racist and the other half doesn't care. You pulled the "half" out of thin air and can't possibly support it. You can't even tell me which half I'm in, let alone 30 million other people in my half who voted for Trump. The left has a habit of making things up and using their newly created "evidence" in debate. Must be what they teach in graduate school.

He put "half" in scare quotes to signify that it wasn't an even split. Paraphrased, it could read "a lot are actual racists, and the rest don't really care that the other ones are."

acbytesla · 18th August 2018, 09:21 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Now this is a post done right: blame the other side entirely for any failure to find common ground. That's the proper way to post in the politics section.

I know you believe that or wish to contend that both sides are equally responsible but that is never actually true. Frankly, until this President I see few differences between the parties on foreign policy. Different politicians might have different perspectives, but it isn't party specific.

On domestic policy it pretty much comes down to social engineering. How do we deal with the poor and the middle class?

The GOP position pretty much takes its inspiration from Ayn Rand, Adam Smith and Gordon Gekko. The view is that selfishness is inevitably good for everyone. By assisting the poor we are being counterproductive. That we are taking away their incentive to do for themselves. The best remedy for poverty is for the government to get out of the way and resist the attempt to help.

Democrats OTOH, see the inherent unfairness of the economic system and see that the every man for himself leads to a good quality of life for only a select few. That government involvement is not only good but necessary. If there is an inspiration for Democrats, it would have to be John Rawls and his Original Position and the veil of ignorance.

These two positions are so diametrically opposed that finding common ground is pretty much an impossibility.

WilliamSeger · 18th August 2018, 09:23 AM

Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby

I certainly do understand your post. It says half of Trump's base is racist and the other half doesn't care. You pulled the "half" out of thin air and can't possibly support it. You can't even tell me which half I'm in, let alone 30 million other people in my half who voted for Trump. The left has a habit of making things up and using their newly created "evidence" in debate. Must be what they teach in graduate school.

You understand neither my point nor why I put "half" in quotes. I suspect that I can only help you with the second one: It was the word Hillary used in the remark that trumpers took such great offense to.

kellyb · 18th August 2018, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Now this is a post done right: blame the other side entirely for any failure to find common ground. That's the proper way to post in the politics section.

Delvo, your rightwing comrade, did it first!

Ziggurat · 18th August 2018, 09:50 AM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

I know you believe that or wish to contend that both sides are equally responsible but that is never actually true.

No, that is neither what I believe nor contend.

Ziggurat · 18th August 2018, 09:52 AM

Originally Posted by WilliamSeger

What's the common ground between empathy and apathy? Being selective about whom one has empathy for?

Everyone is selective about whom they have empathy for. Nobody has empathy for everyone.

acbytesla · 18th August 2018, 09:54 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

No, that is neither what I believe nor contend.

Fair enough. It seems that way though.

acbytesla · 18th August 2018, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Everyone is selective about whom they have empathy for. Nobody has empathy for everyone.

That may be true, but some try harder to extend that empathy beyond friends or casual acquaintances.

WilliamSeger · 18th August 2018, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Everyone is selective about whom they have empathy for. Nobody has empathy for everyone.

True enough, and now can you explain why "half" of trumpers don't care about racism?

Ziggurat · 18th August 2018, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

That may be true, but some try harder to extend that empathy beyond friends or casual acquaintances.

And some have empathy for strangers but treat the people around them like crap. The world is full of variety.

Ziggurat · 18th August 2018, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by WilliamSeger

True enough, and now can you explain why "half" of trumpers don't care about racism?

The premise of your question is unproven.

kellyb · 18th August 2018, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by WilliamSeger

True enough, and now can you explain why "half" of trumpers don't care about racism?

I actually can answer that. They literally don't know how harmful it is. They really think there's more discrimination against white folks nowadays. They think black people have access to all kinds of government benefits white people don't have access to, and other beliefs like that which make the occasional klan rally seem like not a big deal to them.

kellyb · 18th August 2018, 10:06 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

The premise of your question is unproven.

How many Trump fans do you know?

Ziggurat · 18th August 2018, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by kellyb

How many Trump fans do you know?

My surroundings are not representative. No possible answer I could give to your question could prove or disprove the assertion in question. Nor can I read minds to know what people actually care about.

acbytesla · 18th August 2018, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

And some have empathy for strangers but treat the people around them like crap. The world is full of variety.

No question. But it's not really a coincidence that Republicans are frequently described by Democrats as 'selfish' and Republicans refer to Democrats as 'bleeding hearts'. Which do you think is more likely to being 'empathetic'?

WilliamSeger · 18th August 2018, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

The premise of your question is unproven.

The evidence is that they first nominated and then elected Trump. I rest my case.

17th August 2018, 01:31 AM	#121
Oystein Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 16,999	Originally Posted by Ziggurat You should mostly ignore what he says, yes. What he does is a different matter, but you don't need to read his tweets to follow that. Bollocks. Utter and dangerous bollocks. What a President does for a job is saying things.
	__________________ Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)

17th August 2018, 01:50 AM	#122
Oystein Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 16,999	Originally Posted by theprestige WilliamSeger appealed to Dan Rather. ... No, he credited Rather, which is the courteous thing to do if you recreate someone else's brainchild.
	__________________ Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)

17th August 2018, 01:51 AM	#123
Oystein Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 16,999	Originally Posted by theprestige Motte and bailey. If people accept Dan Rather's authority, then that was what was intended all along. And if not? "I didn't really mean for you to consider Dan Rather. I just mentioned him because reasons." ... Bollocks.
	__________________ Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)

17th August 2018, 02:22 AM	#124
Foolmewunz Grammar Resistance Leader TLA Dictator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Pattaya, Thailand Posts: 41,468	Apparently, since this has turned into the traditional tit-for-tat bickering, the answer to the OP is that there is no common ground. I'll try to establish a base line from the left. I can find common ground with fiscal conservatives who break from Trump and the monster that the Tea Party and Alt-Right have made of the Republican Party. I don't guarantee I agree with them on everything (well, on anything) but I can at least discuss things with them. With Trumpistas? I don't think there's anything to discuss any longer. They are beyond hope. With Trump apologists? Pretty close to the same thing. There's a bit more hope (but just a bit) for the conservatives who run away from the Trump name/brand but still think it's their duty to run interference for him because he's the de facto leader of the party that represents their faction.
	__________________ Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.

17th August 2018, 04:15 AM	#125
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 22,791	Originally Posted by Fudbucker "Wacky Omarosa, who got fired 3 times on the Apprentice, now got fired for the last time. She never made it, never will. She begged me for a job, tears in her eyes, I said Ok. People in the White House hated her. She was vicious, but not smart. I would rarely see her but heard.... While I know it’s “not presidential” to take on a lowlife like Omarosa, and while I would rather not be doing so, this is a modern day form of communication and I know the Fake News Media will be working overtime to make even Wacky Omarosa look legitimate as possible. Sorry!" Can you imagine what would have happened if Obama or Bush had said something this retarded? And this is just example A in the ongoing **** show. How can anyone take a Trump supporter seriously? What common ground does an intelligent person have with these people? It really shows how good a judge of character he is.
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

17th August 2018, 04:40 AM	#126
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 22,791	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Dan Rather. Criticizing other people for lost credibility. I gather that Dan Rather isn't very credible, then. In which case it is indeed ironic that the POTUS is less credible.
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

17th August 2018, 04:46 AM	#127
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 22,791	Originally Posted by Ziggurat So he's crossed the line for you. Do you expect him to cross back? Now that he's crossed, do you care about how many times he crosses it again? What new information do you gain by continuing to pay attention to everything he says? Is he actually saying anything new? Do you hope to accomplish something by listening to him? What do you think that will be? Maybe, he will eventually cross the line for someone else. Maybe he'll start admitting to crimes on Twitter
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

17th August 2018, 11:41 AM	#128
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,315	It's hard to have common ground with a Personality Cult, since a Personality Cult if founded on the idea that Dear Leader Is Right, and to oppose or criticize him in any way is Evil.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

17th August 2018, 11:49 AM	#129
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 22,791	well said Dudalb. Of course, several will complain that you are saying mean things about them.
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

17th August 2018, 11:52 AM	#130
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,315	I think a couple of the Trump supporters here are not True Belivers in Trump but Mickey Mouse Republicans....they will support anybody in the White House who is a Republican. They would support any Republican the same way they are supporting Trump. With the hard core members of the Personalty Cult, it's Trump or nobody.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

17th August 2018, 12:21 PM	#131
ahhell Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 3,402	Originally Posted by dudalb I think a couple of the Trump supporters here are not True Belivers in Trump but Mickey Mouse Republicans....they will support anybody in the White House who is a Republican. They would support any Republican the same way they are supporting Trump. With the hard core members of the Personalty Cult, it's Trump or nobody. My sense is that they would not defend any republican as much. I very much believe that Trump has really ramped up the tribalist aspect to American poltics(not just the obvious racism) but the tribes of left/Dem/progr vs cons/Rep. Which has caused a lot of Rs to circle the wagons more than they would have for just about any other president. Which is why I tend to sound like I'm defending him or his supporters. I think we really need to ratchet done the "They're all horrible racists" talk if we want to get trump out of office or elect dems this year. As I've said before, even before Trump being a republican was defacto evidence of racism and or fascism for a lot of lefties. This did two things, it made the GOP and conservatives stop trying and stop listening to the accusation. This is also why I've argued against conflating all the blanking while black stores and really take issue with OPs like this. A. Very few people are actually irredeemable, I recently heard a great interview with a from Neo-Nazi skin head that demonstrates exactly that. B. Acting like everything trump does is obviously racist just keeps his supporters from seeing the actual racism. As someone said, if everything is racist then nothing is racist.
ahhell Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 3,402	Last edited by ahhell; 17th August 2018 at 12:24 PM.

17th August 2018, 12:52 PM	#132
kellyb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 12,632	Originally Posted by ahhell As I've said before, even before Trump being a republican was defacto evidence of racism and or fascism for a lot of lefties. This did two things, it made the GOP and conservatives stop trying and stop listening to the accusation. It made them stop pretending to be non-racist and non-fascist? "We" "far leftists" get accused of being authoritarian racists all the time. Do you think we're about to start actually becoming that as a result of false accusations?
	__________________ "We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan

17th August 2018, 12:54 PM	#133
kellyb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 12,632	Originally Posted by dudalb I think a couple of the Trump supporters here are not True Belivers in Trump but Mickey Mouse Republicans....they will support anybody in the White House who is a Republican. They would support any Republican the same way they are supporting Trump. With the hard core members of the Personalty Cult, it's Trump or nobody. You think they'd support Bernie Sanders or someone like him if he ran as a Republican and somehow won?
	__________________ "We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan

17th August 2018, 01:50 PM	#134
ahhell Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 3,402	Originally Posted by kellyb It made them stop pretending to be non-racist and non-fascist? "We" "far leftists" get accused of being authoritarian racists all the time. Do you think we're about to start actually becoming that as a result of false accusations? It hasn't made you change your mind about anything either has it? Do actually pay attention to a conservative that accuses you of racism? Do you ever think, "I wonder if he has a point?" It seems unlikely. Originally Posted by kellyb You think they'd support Bernie Sanders or someone like him if he ran as a Republican and somehow won? I think they would. As I've mentioned, there's decent research showing folks will agree or disagree with an idea depending on who the claimed source is. https://youarenotsosmart.com/2018/02...erything-else/ https://youarenotsosmart.com/transcr...al-psychology/
ahhell Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 3,402

17th August 2018, 01:58 PM	#135
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 48,299	Originally Posted by ahhell It hasn't made you change your mind about anything either has it? Do actually pay attention to a conservative that accuses you of racism? Do you ever think, "I wonder if he has a point?" It seems unlikely. I think they would. As I've mentioned, there's decent research showing folks will agree or disagree with an idea depending on who the claimed source is. https://youarenotsosmart.com/2018/02...erything-else/ https://youarenotsosmart.com/transcr...al-psychology/ You have badly misunderstood the purpose of this thread. The point is to demand why the other side isn't making concessions to your side. Attempting to understand them is effectively off topic here, and might even subject you to moderator action. Get with the program and start blaming your opponents for everything that's wrong.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

17th August 2018, 01:59 PM	#136
kellyb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 12,632	Originally Posted by ahhell It hasn't made you change your mind about anything either has it? Do actually pay attention to a conservative that accuses you of racism? Do you ever think, "I wonder if he has a point?" It seems unlikely. No, I have never paid attention to false accusations, to my recollection. Are you saying the rightwingers used to? Quote: I think they would. As I've mentioned, there's decent research showing folks will agree or disagree with an idea depending on who the claimed source is. https://youarenotsosmart.com/2018/02...erything-else/ https://youarenotsosmart.com/transcr...al-psychology/ I know that's a real effect, but a lot of rightwingers are primed to only respond to a certain type of rage, and they seek strong, authoritarian leaders. This free (relatively short, scientific, entertaining) ebook is kind of crucial reading for all skeptics, in my opinion: https://theauthoritarians.org/
	__________________ "We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan

17th August 2018, 02:02 PM	#137
kellyb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 12,632	Originally Posted by Ziggurat You have badly misunderstood the purpose of this thread. The point is to demand why the other side isn't making concessions to your side. Attempting to understand them is effectively off topic here, and might even subject you to moderator action. Get with the program and start blaming your opponents for everything that's wrong. The OP was just venting, but once a thread is out there, different people will use it for their own purposes. But I know you're just venting, too.
	__________________ "We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan

17th August 2018, 07:50 PM	#138
Delvo Дэлво Δελϝο דֶלְבֹֿ देल्वो Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: North Tonawanda, NY Posts: 9,288	Originally Posted by ahhell My sense is that they would not defend any republican as much. No other has been attacked so much (because no other has earned it so much). "Resistance" equals the force that's applied. Put a 2-pound object on a table, and the table pushes up against it with 2 pounds of force. Put a 15-pound object on the same table, and the table pushes up against it with 15 pounds of force. (Also known in psychology as the "backfire effect") Originally Posted by ahhell As I've said before, even before Trump being a republican was defacto evidence of racism and or fascism for a lot of lefties. It's become so automatic for a lot of them over the years that they don't seem to even be fully aware of what they're doing themselves anymore. The thread where they're simultaneously saying that any & all of their opposition consists of racists/nazis/whatevers but also gloating about how little support a recent racist/nazi gathering got (and most of them in general get) is truly a dizzying sight to behold. Originally Posted by ahhell if everything is racist then nothing is racist. It's funny that Dan Rather's forged-letter episode came up, because the left's reaction to that was one of the most classic examples ever. "Encyclopedia brownshirts". Literally (literally literally), failing to fall for the left's lies equals being a Nazi. And this was long before Trump, back when some are now claiming that they totally weren't acting the same back then as they are now. No "reich wing", no calling the White House a "plantation house", no saying that some bit of news made the President, VP, or members of the cabinet so happy they'd "goosestep around the Oval Office" in celebration... none of it ever happened. Originally Posted by ahhell I think we really need to ratchet do{wn} the "They're all horrible racists" talk if we want to get trump out of office or elect dems this year. Anything will be sufficient this year, but the effect will wear off if the Democrats' name-calling wing retains the internal power they've held for ages instead of losing enough internal power to the party's focusing-on-policies-to-make-life-better-here wing. * * * Common ground is to be found not by navigating along the left-right spectrum, but by navigating along the populism-elitism spectrum. Some of Trump's campaign talk (which he has not followed through on in office) was identical to some of Bernie's talking points, and has been very popular coming from both of them. Trump won, and continues to please his rally audiences, by appearing as far from an elitist as possible, and was against an opponent whom nobody could ever mistake for anything but an ultra-elitist.

18th August 2018, 06:39 AM	#139
WilliamSeger Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 5,092	Originally Posted by Delvo No other has been attacked so much (because no other has earned it so much). "Resistance" equals the force that's applied. Put a 2-pound object on a table, and the table pushes up against it with 2 pounds of force. Put a 15-pound object on the same table, and the table pushes up against it with 15 pounds of force. (Also known in psychology as the "backfire effect") It's become so automatic for a lot of them over the years that they don't seem to even be fully aware of what they're doing themselves anymore. The thread where they're simultaneously saying that any & all of their opposition consists of racists/nazis/whatevers but also gloating about how little support a recent racist/nazi gathering got (and most of them in general get) is truly a dizzying sight to behold. It's funny that Dan Rather's forged-letter episode came up, because the left's reaction to that was one of the most classic examples ever. "Encyclopedia brownshirts". Literally (literally literally), failing to fall for the left's lies equals being a Nazi. And this was long before Trump, back when some are now claiming that they totally weren't acting the same back then as they are now. No "reich wing", no calling the White House a "plantation house", no saying that some bit of news made the President, VP, or members of the cabinet so happy they'd "goosestep around the Oval Office" in celebration... none of it ever happened. Anything will be sufficient this year, but the effect will wear off if the Democrats' name-calling wing retains the internal power they've held for ages instead of losing enough internal power to the party's focusing-on-policies-to-make-life-better-here wing. * * * Common ground is to be found not by navigating along the left-right spectrum, but by navigating along the populism-elitism spectrum. Some of Trump's campaign talk (which he has not followed through on in office) was identical to some of Bernie's talking points, and has been very popular coming from both of them. Trump won, and continues to please his rally audiences, by appearing as far from an elitist as possible, and was against an opponent whom nobody could ever mistake for anything but an ultra-elitist. What a pantload. If you want to understand most social issues, you need to look along the empathy-apathy spectrum first, and trumpers' hypersensitivity to being called racists is a good example. No, I don't believe all trumpers are racists; I think a goodly number of them just don't care that Trump and "half" his base are, because it's not an issue that affects them personally, but they know they need that other "half" to maintain political power. They just don't care that racism has real consequences to real people and that Trump's absurd pseudo-populism demagoguery is firing up that base. Then you want to act all offended if anyone points that out?

18th August 2018, 08:30 AM	#140
BrooklynBaby Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2015 Posts: 1,106	Originally Posted by WilliamSeger What a pantload. If you want to understand most social issues, you need to look along the empathy-apathy spectrum first, and trumpers' hypersensitivity to being called racists is a good example. No, I don't believe all trumpers are racists; I think a goodly number of them just don't care that Trump and "half" his base are, because it's not an issue that affects them personally, but they know they need that other "half" to maintain political power. They just don't care that racism has real consequences to real people and that Trump's absurd pseudo-populism demagoguery is firing up that base. Then you want to act all offended if anyone points that out? Where is your evidence that I'm a racist? I'm definitely in "half" of Trump's base.

18th August 2018, 08:41 AM	#141
WilliamSeger Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 5,092	Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby Where is your evidence that I'm a racist? I'm definitely in "half" of Trump's base. You apparently didn't understand my post. Which "half" you're in is something only you can know (ETA: unless you tell us you're a racist, as many do).
	Last edited by WilliamSeger; 18th August 2018 at 08:44 AM.

18th August 2018, 08:50 AM	#142
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 48,299	Originally Posted by WilliamSeger What a pantload. If you want to understand most social issues, you need to look along the empathy-apathy spectrum first, and trumpers' hypersensitivity to being called racists is a good example. No, I don't believe all trumpers are racists; I think a goodly number of them just don't care that Trump and "half" his base are, because it's not an issue that affects them personally, but they know they need that other "half" to maintain political power. They just don't care that racism has real consequences to real people and that Trump's absurd pseudo-populism demagoguery is firing up that base. Then you want to act all offended if anyone points that out? Now this is a post done right: blame the other side entirely for any failure to find common ground. That's the proper way to post in the politics section.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

18th August 2018, 09:00 AM	#143
BrooklynBaby Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2015 Posts: 1,106	Originally Posted by WilliamSeger You apparently didn't understand my post. Which "half" you're in is something only you can know (ETA: unless you tell us you're a racist, as many do). I certainly do understand your post. It says half of Trump's base is racist and the other half doesn't care. You pulled the "half" out of thin air and can't possibly support it. You can't even tell me which half I'm in, let alone 30 million other people in my half who voted for Trump. The left has a habit of making things up and using their newly created "evidence" in debate. Must be what they teach in graduate school.

18th August 2018, 09:01 AM	#144
WilliamSeger Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 5,092	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Now this is a post done right: blame the other side entirely for any failure to find common ground. That's the proper way to post in the politics section. What's the common ground between empathy and apathy? Being selective about whom one has empathy for?
	Last edited by WilliamSeger; 18th August 2018 at 09:03 AM.

18th August 2018, 09:16 AM	#145
kellyb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 12,632	Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby I certainly do understand your post. It says half of Trump's base is racist and the other half doesn't care. You pulled the "half" out of thin air and can't possibly support it. You can't even tell me which half I'm in, let alone 30 million other people in my half who voted for Trump. The left has a habit of making things up and using their newly created "evidence" in debate. Must be what they teach in graduate school. He put "half" in scare quotes to signify that it wasn't an even split. Paraphrased, it could read "a lot are actual racists, and the rest don't really care that the other ones are."
	__________________ "We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan

18th August 2018, 09:21 AM	#146
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,207	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Now this is a post done right: blame the other side entirely for any failure to find common ground. That's the proper way to post in the politics section. I know you believe that or wish to contend that both sides are equally responsible but that is never actually true. Frankly, until this President I see few differences between the parties on foreign policy. Different politicians might have different perspectives, but it isn't party specific. On domestic policy it pretty much comes down to social engineering. How do we deal with the poor and the middle class? The GOP position pretty much takes its inspiration from Ayn Rand, Adam Smith and Gordon Gekko. The view is that selfishness is inevitably good for everyone. By assisting the poor we are being counterproductive. That we are taking away their incentive to do for themselves. The best remedy for poverty is for the government to get out of the way and resist the attempt to help. Democrats OTOH, see the inherent unfairness of the economic system and see that the every man for himself leads to a good quality of life for only a select few. That government involvement is not only good but necessary. If there is an inspiration for Democrats, it would have to be John Rawls and his Original Position and the veil of ignorance. These two positions are so diametrically opposed that finding common ground is pretty much an impossibility.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

18th August 2018, 09:23 AM	#147
WilliamSeger Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 5,092	Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby I certainly do understand your post. It says half of Trump's base is racist and the other half doesn't care. You pulled the "half" out of thin air and can't possibly support it. You can't even tell me which half I'm in, let alone 30 million other people in my half who voted for Trump. The left has a habit of making things up and using their newly created "evidence" in debate. Must be what they teach in graduate school. You understand neither my point nor why I put "half" in quotes. I suspect that I can only help you with the second one: It was the word Hillary used in the remark that trumpers took such great offense to.

18th August 2018, 09:26 AM	#148
kellyb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 12,632	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Now this is a post done right: blame the other side entirely for any failure to find common ground. That's the proper way to post in the politics section. Delvo, your rightwing comrade, did it first!
	__________________ "We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan

18th August 2018, 09:50 AM	#149
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 48,299	Originally Posted by acbytesla I know you believe that or wish to contend that both sides are equally responsible but that is never actually true. No, that is neither what I believe nor contend.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

18th August 2018, 09:52 AM	#150
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 48,299	Originally Posted by WilliamSeger What's the common ground between empathy and apathy? Being selective about whom one has empathy for? Everyone is selective about whom they have empathy for. Nobody has empathy for everyone.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

18th August 2018, 09:54 AM	#151
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,207	Originally Posted by Ziggurat No, that is neither what I believe nor contend. Fair enough. It seems that way though.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

18th August 2018, 09:56 AM	#152
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,207	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Everyone is selective about whom they have empathy for. Nobody has empathy for everyone. That may be true, but some try harder to extend that empathy beyond friends or casual acquaintances.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

18th August 2018, 10:00 AM	#153
WilliamSeger Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 5,092	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Everyone is selective about whom they have empathy for. Nobody has empathy for everyone. True enough, and now can you explain why "half" of trumpers don't care about racism?

18th August 2018, 10:00 AM	#154
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 48,299	Originally Posted by acbytesla That may be true, but some try harder to extend that empathy beyond friends or casual acquaintances. And some have empathy for strangers but treat the people around them like crap. The world is full of variety.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

18th August 2018, 10:02 AM	#155
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 48,299	Originally Posted by WilliamSeger True enough, and now can you explain why "half" of trumpers don't care about racism? The premise of your question is unproven.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law