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Tags donald trump , Omarosa Manigault , Trump appointees , Trump supporters

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Old 20th August 2018, 08:08 AM   #321
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
You know this whole empathy mini-discussion is a result of Zig using a very "unconventional", almost unique to him definition of the word in order to argue that empathy is a very bad thing, yes?
I said empathy is overrated, and I said that it's a bad basis for evaluating public policy. I never said it was a very bad thing. In fact, I explicitly said it was useful for personal interactions.

Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
What is that nonsense supposed to mean?
You will need to further specify your confusion if you want additional clarification, because I see nothing wrong with what I wrote.

Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Or maybe he actually hates empathy.
That is an actual distinct possibility, too.
That stuff is kind of a thing with libertarians.
This is one of the ironies of this discussion: you're championing empathy in the abstract, but you can't manage to actually display any towards me. I'm not a libertarian, and I don't hate empathy.
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Old 20th August 2018, 08:09 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Women are 51% of the population and they are largely (and correctly) seen as marginalized.
Ok so how do we marginalize trump supporters? Who currently poll at 40%.
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Old 20th August 2018, 08:17 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
When linguistic nuance is being used intentionally as an argumentative instead of arising naturally repeatedly stopping the conversation for clarification does not help, indeed it is counter productive.

As I said, I think you're missing a lot in this particular case. But okay, take it back to what started the discussion of definitions. As an example of what I was talking about with the "empathy-apathy spectrum" might be Trump's Muslim ban. Can you put yourself in the position of being a Muslim living in America, perhaps not far removed from a foreign country, and the president is saying we don't want any more of your kind here? And what will his followers make of that, which might affect your well-being? I'm sure not all trumpers hate Muslims or any of the other groups that Trump does, but they also don't care what effect Trumpism has on them. Put whatever definition you want on that, and it's still the same.
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Old 20th August 2018, 08:23 AM   #324
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One thing that can be very helpful to more discussion forward is to sum up what you think the other side is saying and see if they agree that you got their views right. This can actually be a pretty useful way of reaching common ground, at least as a first step toward that goal.

Can anyone sum up Ziggurat's views?
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Old 20th August 2018, 08:24 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I said empathy is overrated, and I said that it's a bad basis for evaluating public policy. I never said it was a very bad thing. In fact, I explicitly said it was useful for personal interactions.
You said it (but not compassion) is "very bad" when used in policy formulation. Of course you think it's fine in personal stuff, because you're using that bizarre definition where it just means "empathy as in compassion (when it's a sympathetic sort) for members of your in-group and maybe a few exceptions, because that's the only sort of empathy that really exists."

Quote:
You will need to further specify your confusion if you want additional clarification, because I see nothing wrong with what I wrote.
You still won't tell me where you're getting your definition of empathy from.

Do you agree or disagree with this statement?

"Empathy is a complex psychological response in which observation, memory, knowledge, and reasoning are combined to yield insights into the thoughts and feelings of others."
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Old 20th August 2018, 08:28 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
One thing that can be very helpful to more discussion forward is to sum up what you think the other side is saying and see if they agree that you got their views right. This can actually be a pretty useful way of reaching common ground, at least as a first step toward that goal.

Can anyone sum up Ziggurat's views?
He thinks empathy is over-rated and "very bad" when used in the formulation of policies, because empathy is biased, and sometimes it results in bringing out people's drive to seek revenge on another's behalf if you see a victim. He thinks "compassion" is acceptable in formulating policy, though.
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Old 20th August 2018, 08:37 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I'm not a libertarian, and I don't hate empathy.
I guess being a libertarian isn't like being pregnant or not. It's a scale.

On a 1 to 10 scale of libertarianism, where a one is someone who would be totally fine as a member of the ruling elite in Brave New World, and a 10 is Charles or David Koch, where are you?

I'm put myself at a... 4, I guess.
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Old 20th August 2018, 12:37 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
It's hard to find common ground with people who make up their own facts.
That's what I'm absolutely terrified of.
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Old 20th August 2018, 12:40 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
That's what I'm absolutely terrified of.
Well at least the white house sacked the speech writer who gave a speech and a nazi convention.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/19/polit...lub/index.html
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Old 20th August 2018, 04:09 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Well at least the white house sacked the speech writer who gave a speech and a nazi convention.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/19/polit...lub/index.html
I heard he's gone to work for the campaign.
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Old 20th August 2018, 06:03 PM   #331
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The reality is that there is very little common ground politically. Non-Politically there is a lot, both sides think that hot dogs are a perfect food for a baseball game, and for some reason believe that a Cheese pizza is actually something, rather than that it's missing the real toppings. They agree that you have Turkey on Turkey Day, and Parades and fireworks on Independence Day.

Sadly when it comes to Politics these just isn't the case. Over half of those voting in the 2016 General Elections reported via exit polling that they distrusted the party they didn't vote for to the point where they believed if that party were to gain power, they would destroy the US through their policies, and the difference in percentage between which party was voted for wasn't that significant.

When over half the country believe that their political rivals are so terrible that they are out to destroy the country, how can you find common ground politically? Sadly, I suspect that should this poll be conducted today, the stats would be even worse.
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Old 20th August 2018, 06:16 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
The reality is that there is very little common ground politically. Non-Politically there is a lot, both sides think that hot dogs are a perfect food for a baseball game, and for some reason believe that a Cheese pizza is actually something, rather than that it's missing the real toppings. They agree that you have Turkey on Turkey Day, and Parades and fireworks on Independence Day.
Which is why the federal government should be reduced in size. The less important it is in our daily lives, the less consuming these political differences are.
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Old 20th August 2018, 06:22 PM   #333
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We're breaking the government so compromise by doing exactly what we want and break it more! Even though that will give us more power over your lives by removing protections!

Such ground. Much common.
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Old 20th August 2018, 06:30 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Which is why the federal government should be reduced in size. The less important it is in our daily lives, the less consuming these political differences are.
I totally agree, but I'd also like to point out that a lot of outrage seems to be based on a gross overestimation of how important the federal government is in our daily lives, even in its current intrusiveness.
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Old 20th August 2018, 06:35 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I totally agree, but I'd also like to point out that a lot of outrage seems to be based on a gross overestimation of how important the federal government is in our daily lives, even in its current intrusiveness.
Why do you think Medicare and S.S. are referred to as the "third rail" in politics? If those checks stopped coming you would have a revolt.

Last edited by Fudbucker; 20th August 2018 at 06:38 PM.
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Old 20th August 2018, 06:39 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Why do you think Medicare and S.S. are referred to as the "third rail" in politics?
Why do you think that Plato's Socratic Douchebaggery was a better way to explain your point of view, than simply explaining your point of view?
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Old 20th August 2018, 07:01 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Which is why the federal government should be reduced in size.
Government bad, Anarchy good!

Quote:
The less important it is in our daily lives, the less consuming these political differences are.
Even if there was no Federal government, there would still be plenty of political differences.

Could be interesting though. No congress, no judiciary, no president! 50 individual states each with their own army - some with nukes. With any luck the political differences between them will spark a multitude of wars. Those of us who hate America say, bring it on!
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Old 20th August 2018, 07:03 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Which is why the federal government should be reduced in size. The less important it is in our daily lives, the less consuming these political differences are.
Except that this isn't common ground either.The Right wants less Government Regulating Businesses, the Left wants more regulations protecting people from Businesses. The Left want the Government out of the bedroom and Toilets, the Right wants the Government to regulated who you can love, have sex with, marry and which bathroom you have to use.

Neither side really want less Government, they just want less Government control over their pet areas and more controls over the other side's pet areas.
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Last edited by PhantomWolf; 20th August 2018 at 07:05 PM.
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Old 20th August 2018, 07:08 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Why do you think that Plato's Socratic Douchebaggery was a better way to explain your point of view, than simply explaining your point of view?
Um, OK. This claim you made:
Quote:
I totally agree, but I'd also like to point out that a lot of outrage seems to be based on a gross overestimation of how important the federal government is in our daily lives, even in its current intrusiveness.
was wrong. It was wrong because government is HUGELY important in people's lives. People UNDERESTIMATE how important it is. I illustrated this by pointing out how important Medicare/S.S. are to a huge amount of people.

I could go on about other governmental programs, but you get the point now, right?

Last edited by Fudbucker; 20th August 2018 at 07:10 PM.
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Old 20th August 2018, 07:10 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Um, OK. This claim you made:

was wrong. It was wrong because government is HUGELY important in people's lives. People UNDERESTIMATE how important it is. I illustrated this by pointing out how important Medicare/S.S. are to a huge amount of people.

I could go on about other governmental programs, but you get the point now, right?
That's your claim.
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Old 20th August 2018, 07:13 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Except that this isn't common ground either.The Right wants less Government Regulating Businesses, the Left wants more regulations protecting people from Businesses. The Left want the Government out of the bedroom and Toilets, the Right wants the Government to regulated who you can love, have sex with, marry and which bathroom you have to use.

Neither side really want less Government, they just want less Government control over their pet areas and more controls over the other side's pet areas.
You skipped reproductive rights. That one trumps everything for me. The Right has been on the wrong side of that issue since I've been alive. The Left could sell out on taxes and business regulations (like a lot of people think they have), but as long as they're pro-choice, I'll support them.
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Old 20th August 2018, 07:13 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Which is why the federal government should be reduced in size. The less important it is in our daily lives, the less consuming these political differences are.
I don't agree with this opinion. The government should be there to protect our environment, people, food, drugs and more. The government should be there to protect minorities from the persecution of the majority. Government should be there to provide for the general welfare of the public. Government should be there to help the poor, the disabled and those who can't help themselves. Reduction in the size of government only serves to give power to the wealthy and away from the people.
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Old 20th August 2018, 07:14 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That's your claim.
Yes, my claim is that you're wrong. I gave an example why. Do you still think people overestimate how important the federal government is in their lives?
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Old 20th August 2018, 07:15 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
You skipped reproductive rights.
That was covered in the "each side's pet areas" bit.
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Old 20th August 2018, 07:17 PM   #345
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Yes, my claim is that you're wrong. I gave an example why. Do you still think people overestimate how important the federal government is in their lives?
I believe they underestimate the importance. From what we eat, to what we drive and drive on is safer because of government. Without government, acid rain would still be a thing and even worse. Fraud would not be a crime. It's been shown time and time again that the free market does not self-correct with the public's safety or interest in mind.
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Old 20th August 2018, 07:23 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
That was covered in the "each side's pet areas" bit.
The problem with that is that reproductive rights aren't any more of a "pet area" than civil rights (which is also a Democrat thing). The modern Democratic party has been right on these issues (reproductive rights and civil rights), and has had to do constant battle against a religiously motivated opposition that has shown itself to be racist, misogynistic, and ignorant.

There is no moral equivalency between the two sides. If not for our weird system, liberals would be running Congress and the Presidency and choosing SCOTUS judges.
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Old 20th August 2018, 07:42 PM   #347
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Why do you think that Plato's Socratic Douchebaggery was a better way to explain your point of view, than simply explaining your point of view?
Plato was a Socratic douchebag. Got it.

Originally Posted by tyr_13
Such ground. Much common.
Actually I think there is a lot of common ground, but it won't be admitted to by certain posters because that would involve being on ground that doesn't belong to them alone. And they will stand their ground no matter how swampy it becomes, because to move onto common ground is to admit that theirs is a swamp.
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Old 20th August 2018, 07:47 PM   #348
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The lack of moral equivalency on health care is so stark that, after we get that under control like the entire rest of the modern civilized world, it will be one of those things that even the conservatives of the time will agree are obviously such basic government obligations that of course there's no way they or any other sane person would ever oppose any of them or any responsible government would ever neglect, just like clean water, food that isn't rotten or parasite-infested, roads, a military force, and police.
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Old 20th August 2018, 07:52 PM   #349
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Except that this isn't common ground either.
What do you mean, “except”? Yes, lots of people don’t agree with me, but that doesn’t mean I’m wrong about it.
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Old 20th August 2018, 07:57 PM   #350
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Government bad, Anarchy good!
When my opponents use such ridiculously transparent straw men, it makes me wonder if they are trying to convince other people, or themselves.
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Old 20th August 2018, 08:05 PM   #351
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
The lack of moral equivalency on health care is so stark that, after we get that under control like the entire rest of the modern civilized world, it will be one of those things that even the conservatives of the time will agree are obviously such basic government obligations that of course there's no way they or any other sane person would ever oppose any of them or any responsible government would ever neglect, just like clean water, food that isn't rotten or parasite-infested, roads, a military force, and police.
You would think that they aren't opposed to clean water, food..etc. However, they are applauding the Trump regimes dismantling of EPA and FDA standards.
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Old 20th August 2018, 08:08 PM   #352
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After 350 posts I think we can safely say that the common ground (sub: in the current US political environment) is that both sides like to belittle the other.

Question answered. Thread closed.
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It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
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Old 20th August 2018, 08:24 PM   #353
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Which is why the federal government should be reduced in size. The less important it is in our daily lives, the less consuming these political differences are.
This is a 300 million + people country. There a multitude of complicated complex needs. What size is right? What government services are not needed? Should we eliminate SSN, AFDC, NOAA, DARPA, NASA, FDA, FEC, HUD, EPA, DOT, NHTSA, FAA,etc, etc. How about the Navy or the Air Force?

This idea of reducing the Federal government without knowing precisely why and how it should be cut and what the effects would be is absurd.

I'm all in favor of being efficient but smaller just for the sake of smaller is basically dumbass right wing radio talk.
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Last edited by acbytesla; 20th August 2018 at 08:27 PM.
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Old 20th August 2018, 09:24 PM   #354
Minoosh
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I heard he's gone to work for the campaign.
From the CNN story:

Quote:
The White House, which asked CNN to hold off on the story for several days last week declined to say when Beattie left the White House. Beattie's email address at the White House, which worked until late Friday evening, was no longer active by Saturday.
Apparently CNN honored that White House request? How did they find common ground? I actually find it kind of encouraging that there is apparently a working relationship between CNN and the White House.
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Old 20th August 2018, 09:39 PM   #355
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Non-Politically there is a lot, both sides think that hot dogs are a perfect food for a baseball game, and for some reason believe that a Cheese pizza is actually something, rather than that it's missing the real toppings. They agree that you have Turkey on Turkey Day, and Parades and fireworks on Independence Day.
I'll be attending a ballgame with my right-wing brother and nephew Saturday ... courtesy my left-wing brother's birthday gift to said nephew ... we will talk about baseball.

I'm rooting for Havana to get an MLB team.

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
When over half the country believe that their political rivals are so terrible that they are out to destroy the country, how can you find common ground politically? Sadly, I suspect that should this poll be conducted today, the stats would be even worse.
I keep wondering about this. At the extremes of polarity how can it get worse? Civil war, of course. There's that.

Though in its heart of hearts I'm pretty sure the Right knows that the POS in the White House is not worth fighting a war over.
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Old 20th August 2018, 09:59 PM   #356
BrooklynBaby
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I'll be attending a ballgame with my right-wing brother and nephew Saturday ... courtesy my left-wing brother's birthday gift to said nephew ... we will talk about baseball.

I'm rooting for Havana to get an MLB team.

I keep wondering about this. At the extremes of polarity how can it get worse? Civil war, of course. There's that.

Though in its heart of hearts I'm pretty sure the Right knows that the POS in the White House is not worth fighting a war over.
If fake news would stop lying about everything political under the sun the problems would go away. For example, the whole Ferguson debacle was caused by fake news. No fake news, no Ferguson.
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Old 20th August 2018, 10:08 PM   #357
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
If fake news would stop lying about everything political under the sun the problems would go away. For example, the whole Ferguson debacle was caused by fake news. No fake news, no Ferguson.
The DoJ disagree

Seriously, you should read it. When the court officials use their work emails to send racist jokes about crimestoppers funding abortions for blacks, and void traffic fines for them and their friends whilst saying that blacks don't take responsibility for their actions, then justice is obviously not being administered equally.
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Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 20th August 2018, 10:09 PM   #358
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post

When over half the country believe that their political rivals are so terrible that they are out to destroy the country, how can you find common ground politically? Sadly, I suspect that should this poll be conducted today, the stats would be even worse.
I have never thought that way about the GOP even though I have strong differences about the best way forward for the country. But the Republican party isn't even the party it was 2 years ago. Now it is the party of Trump. And Trump's attacks on dedicated public servants, and the press not to mention his dumbass tariffs all pose a serious threat to the country.
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Old 20th August 2018, 10:48 PM   #359
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
The problem with that is that reproductive rights aren't any more of a "pet area" than civil rights (which is also a Democrat thing). The modern Democratic party has been right on these issues (reproductive rights and civil rights), and has had to do constant battle against a religiously motivated opposition that has shown itself to be racist, misogynistic, and ignorant.

There is no moral equivalency between the two sides. If not for our weird system, liberals would be running Congress and the Presidency and choosing SCOTUS judges.
But see this is just it, you are so sure that you are right about where you stand on Abortion and Civil Rights issues, and yet so are those that are on the other side. What you see as the right of a woman to have control over her own body, they see as murdering another human. There is no common ground because you are diametrically opposed to each other's positions, and you both exclaim that you are the ones whom are right.

Case in point....

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
What do you mean, “except”? Yes, lots of people don’t agree with me, but that doesn’t mean I’m wrong about it.
It's not about being wrong or right, the fact is that both sides claim to be the ones that are right, it's that as you yourself admit, there are lots of people that don't agree with you, and thus there is no common ground.
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Old 20th August 2018, 10:55 PM   #360
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
If fake news would stop lying about everything political under the sun the problems would go away. For example, the whole Ferguson debacle was caused by fake news. No fake news, no Ferguson.
Another perfect example of the issue. One side depicts the media as "Fake News" and liars and enemies of the people, brainwashing those that listen to them to hate the President, believe untruths, and to see a distorted version of reality.

The other side sees the media as courageous stalwarts, standing firm against the flood of lies coming from the White House and a dysfunctional President, a press corps that is willing and able to inform and tell the people the truth and reality of the situation the country is in.

How do you find any common ground here?
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