Calling Trumpistas "Stupid" May Be a Kindness They No Longer Merit - Page 2

WilliamSeger · 30th July 2019, 08:07 AM

Originally Posted by Apathia

Be very careful that you aren't being bigoted yourself.

But note this, for all your presentation of "Trumpistas" as being "evil," I don't feel you're a bigot. You're just indulging in some bigoted language because you're angry at and fed up with people who seem too dense to ever get what jerks they're being. And I confess the times I've walked away from someone spewing hateful dreck, muttering to myself, "Moron!" Then on next encounter, I treat my "moron" with the respect due a sentient person, as opposed to a "Trumpista."

Well, be careful of false equivalences, too. There's a difference between being prejudiced against someone with black skin and someone wearing a MAGA hat: Putting on a MAGA hat is a choice, as so is not taking it off, and some valid inferences can be drawn from that fact alone.

plague311 · 30th July 2019, 08:13 AM

Originally Posted by WilliamSeger

Well, be careful of false equivalences, too. There's a difference between being prejudiced against someone with black skin and someone wearing a MAGA hat: Putting on a MAGA hat is a choice, as so is not taking it off, and some valid inferences can be drawn from that fact alone.

I was thinking something along those lines as well.

There should never be a reason to not call out racism and bigotry. That should be standard operating procedure for everyone.

There is no comparison between despising the actions of Red Hats, and locking migrant children in cages.

Shalamar · 30th July 2019, 08:15 AM

Originally Posted by plague311

I was thinking something along those lines as well.

There should never be a reason to not call out racism and bigotry. That should be standard operating procedure for everyone.

There is no comparison between despising the actions of Red Hats, and locking migrant children in cages.

Locking American Citizen children in cages because they have brown skin.

ponderingturtle · 30th July 2019, 08:21 AM

Originally Posted by Apathia

Be very careful that you aren't being bigoted yourself.

But note this, for all your presentation of "Trumpistas" as being "evil," I don't feel you're a bigot. You're just indulging in some bigoted language because you're angry at and fed up with people who seem too dense to ever get what jerks they're being.

Stop being so patronizing to them, they know what they are doing. That coastal elitism patronizing that they couldn't possibly understand what they are doing is doing them no favors either.

Apathia · 30th July 2019, 08:28 AM

Originally Posted by WilliamSeger

Well, be careful of false equivalences, too. There's a difference between being prejudiced against someone with black skin and someone wearing a MAGA hat: Putting on a MAGA hat is a choice, as so is not taking it off, and some valid inferences can be drawn from that fact alone.

Alas! I suppose I'm close to being a "collaborator." Yes the MAGA cap tells me unpleasant things about the wearer, but I always show respect to what's beneath that persona. (Oh my God! I'm going Marianne Williamson!)

If that individual verbally attacks me, depending on my mood and circumstances, I either wait patiently for the venting to end, or bow out and be on my way. Whenever I can I do call out the racism, but I try to do so without vilifying.

plague311 · 30th July 2019, 08:31 AM

Originally Posted by Apathia

Alas! I suppose I'm close to being a "collaborator." Yes the MAGA cap tells me unpleasant things about the wearer, but I always show respect to what's beneath that persona. (Oh my God! I'm going Marianne Williamson!)

If that individual verbally attacks me, depending on my mood and circumstances, I either wait patiently for the venting to end, or bow out and be on my way. Whenever I can I do call out the racism, but I try to do so without vilifying.

Why do you give that courtesy to someone who won't do the same for an entire race(s) of people?

ponderingturtle · 30th July 2019, 08:31 AM

Originally Posted by Apathia

Alas! I suppose I'm close to being a "collaborator." Yes the MAGA cap tells me unpleasant things about the wearer, but I always show respect to what's beneath that persona. (Oh my God! I'm going Marianne Williamson!)

At least you know they are too stupid too be able to be racist.

Apathia · 30th July 2019, 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Stop being so patronizing to them, they know what they are doing. That coastal elitism patronizing that they couldn't possibly understand what they are doing is doing them no favors either.

As said elsewhere, I do call out the racism.

There are two proverbs:

"Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him."

"Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he turn and rend you."

I try to deal with fools as circumstances permit and in the most humane way possible.

Of course I'd report to the police the perpetrator of a hate crime or anyone threatening to do a hate crime.

ponderingturtle · 30th July 2019, 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by Apathia

As said elsewhere, I do call out the racism.

There are two proverbs:

"Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him."

"Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he turn and rend you."

I try to deal with fools as circumstances permit and in the most humane way possible.

Of course I'd report to the police the perpetrator of a hate crime or anyone threatening to do a hate crime.

And of course when it is the police oh well nothing to do. That is why the chants and telling the darkies to go back where they came from can't be racist, because that would be politically impossible as it would be saying that huge portions of the populace is fine with racism and has no problem supporting it. This is something that can never be said, even if true.

So clearly you call out the racism but of course not exactly as racism or something because that would be impolite. Look this racism is the new normal for the GOP and we just have to accept that they are choosing to live the racist lifestyle.

Upchurch · 30th July 2019, 08:45 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Do you feel better now that you've had your two minutes hate?

Are you suggesting that opposing Trump's racist and xenophobic policies are irrational?

Apathia · 30th July 2019, 08:51 AM

Originally Posted by plague311

Why do you give that courtesy to someone who won't do the same for an entire race(s) of people?

I get angry at people being bigoted and racist, but I don't hate them. I still respected and cared for my mother though she took her anti-Semitism with her to the grave. Especially when I'm in the physical presence of a person, or communicating with hir over whatever medium, I'm more than likely to meet hir as more than whatever persona ze's wearing or than my biases might dress hir with.

Apathia · 30th July 2019, 08:55 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

At least you know they are too stupid too be able to be racist.

Well, to be cynical and a little condescending here:
As my grandmother used to say, "The Good Book tells us to be kind to dumb animals."

Yes. there are some people in such a stupor that they aren't even racists.

Apathia · 30th July 2019, 09:00 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

And of course when it is the police oh well nothing to do. That is why the chants and telling the darkies to go back where they came from can't be racist, because that would be politically impossible as it would be saying that huge portions of the populace is fine with racism and has no problem supporting it. This is something that can never be said, even if true.

So clearly you call out the racism but of course not exactly as racism or something because that would be impolite. Look this racism is the new normal for the GOP and we just have to accept that they are choosing to live the racist lifestyle.

Chants and telling the darkies to go back where they came from is racist. I never said it wasn't.

ponderingturtle · 30th July 2019, 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by Apathia

Chants and telling the darkies to go back where they came from is racist. I never said it wasn't.

But the people doing it aren't because they are clearly too stupid to be called racist, that is sure to win them over of course.

The Great Zaganza · 30th July 2019, 09:05 AM

I am somewhat heartened by the fact that Republicans are still fighting not to be called Racists.
Plenty of right-wing parties all over the world embrace the description.

plague311 · 30th July 2019, 09:08 AM

Originally Posted by Apathia

I get angry at people being bigoted and racist, but I don't hate them. I still respected and cared for my mother though she took her anti-Semitism with her to the grave. Especially when I'm in the physical presence of a person, or communicating with hir over whatever medium, I'm more than likely to meet hir as more than whatever persona ze's wearing or than my biases might dress hir with.

That makes sense to me.

ahhell · 30th July 2019, 09:29 AM

This is a pointless endeavor but.....

A. Its human nature to rally around your guy even when your guy is an *******. You progressives would do this and have done this in the past. Perhaps not someone who was such an ******* as Trump.

B. You've got folks saying that Trump's attack on Baltimore and Elijah Cummings is just as clearly racist as the "go back" comments and you wonder why 40 percent of America just ignores you when you say, "that's racist"?

C. Please do write off 40% of America as evil and stupid and see where that gets you. That attitude is, in my opinion, rather unprogressive and certainly unproductive.

ponderingturtle · 30th July 2019, 09:33 AM

Originally Posted by ahhell

This is a pointless endeavor but.....

A. Its human nature to rally around your guy even when your guy is an *******. You progressives would do this and have done this in the past. Perhaps not someone who was such an ******* as Trump.

B. You've got folks saying that Trump's attack on Baltimore and Elijah Cummings is just as clearly racist as the "go back" comments and you wonder why 40 percent of America just ignores you when you say, "that's racist"?

C. Please do write off 40% of America as evil and stupid and see where that gets you. That attitude is, in my opinion, rather unprogressive and certainly unproductive.

Exactly nothing Trump can do or have done at his rallies can possibly be racist. That is just a simple fact there and trying to pretend that telling darkies to go back where they came from is suddenly racist is not going to stand in America.

plague311 · 30th July 2019, 09:36 AM

Originally Posted by ahhell

This is a pointless endeavor but.....

A. Its human nature to rally around your guy even when your guy is an *******. You progressives would do this and have done this in the past. Perhaps not someone who was such an ******* as Trump.

As you openly admit, not to this extent. There should be a limit and this POTUS has long since surpassed it.

Originally Posted by ahhell

B. You've got folks saying that Trump's attack on Baltimore and Elijah Cummings is just as clearly racist as the "go back" comments and you wonder why 40 percent of America just ignores you when you say, "that's racist"?

Neat. Mind you, it's an extended attack that hasn't become anymore logical or reasonable.

Those 40% of people, which you elude to below, are the people being racist. Who gives a **** if those people ignore us or not?

Some of us, as American's, would like the rest of the world to know that 40% of our country do not represent all of us. Just like "they ignore us" when we say it, we ignore "them" crying about it. Though for saying you "ignore us", you sure are here giving "us" attention. Another thing Trump supporters suck at.

Originally Posted by ahhell

C. Please do write off 40% of America as evil and stupid and see where that gets you. That attitude is, in my opinion, rather unprogressive and certainly unproductive.

I don't personally agree with most of the content of this post. I don't think they're evil, I just think they are retarding most of America, speaking of "unprogressive". Which isn't really a word, but I'm 0% shocked when people use made up words now. That's the world we live in.

That being said, it's not unproductive at all. If something is antiquated, no longer useful, and actually harms the rest of society it would absolutely be productive to write them off. People who are racist or morons, ********, seriously there is no reason for them to exist. Racism itself flies in the face of science and logic. So, from the bottom of my heart. **** them.

theprestige · 30th July 2019, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz

Now that the other shoe has dropped and the GOP and its anointed leader have gone full bore racist in a throwback to the Anti-Immigration Era, it's time to come to the reality that is 21st Century US Politics.

Up 'til a couple of weeks ago, the kindest interpretation one could give to Trump supporters was "They're probably decent folks down deep, they've just fallen for the long-game con and are too stupid to realize it". With every passing miscreant deed, it became harder and harder to keep excusing Trumpistas. We really wound up with the charitable explanation, "Well, they're just really stupid!"

And it was charitable. Charitable because the alternative, which is becoming too apparent, is that they are evil. So, if you're one of the deplorable minority of actual supporters of Donald J. Trump, there's good news and bad news... The good news is that you're no longer considered stupid. For many of you that may be a lifetime first. The bad news is that you're an out-and-out bigot.

The Trump campaign, the RNC, and any GOP candidate who doesn't stand up and condemn the latest round of bellicose racism from the White House are bigots. Dems who continue to pander to "good people on both sides" rhetoric are in the same group.

The GOP has done away with the camouflage. They sit around and discuss whether Trump's latest bigot-speak was good or bad for the campaign. You see and hear the comments of the Apologia. "Well, he's working to his base because motivating them is important." No!!! Bigotry = Bad. Dividing the country along racial lines = Bad. If you can't see this, you are one of the remaining stupid ones. But you can see it. And if you approve of it, you're evil. Old-fashioned Brothers Grimm wicked witch evil. Not some post-modernist angst-y misunderstood good-intentioned person gone astray. Just plain damned evil.

Democratic Underground figured this out almost twenty years ago. At this point, you're just pissing into an ocean of piss. Decades-old piss.

Anyway, the progressive-conservative divide is pretty stale around here.

Around here, the interesting divides are the progressive-progressive divides.

There's the divide between advocates of political violence and advocates of rule of law. That's got some progressives calling other progressives racists and nazis already. You'll be calling each other evil soon enough.

There's also the divide between the trans-skeptics and the trans-credulous. That's got some progressives calling other progressives bigots and transphobes. Again, the "evil" epithet can't be far behind.

So. You adding "evil" to your thesaurus of hate isn't all that interesting. What pops my popcorn lately is the prospect of watching these blue-on-blue debates play out.

Trebuchet · 30th July 2019, 09:47 AM

Regarding the thread title, I far prefer to refer to Trump and his followers as ignorant rather than stupid. "Stupid" implies low intelligence. That's an inborn trait. Ignorance is something you can do something about, and they don't, so it's worse.

applecorped · 30th July 2019, 10:03 AM

how deplorable

Baylor · 30th July 2019, 10:06 AM

Originally Posted by Lurch

If you want something of an example of the super-fans cheering for their 'team' and captain, but later came to regret their blind worship, think a moment upon the early days of Hitler and his cabal. The scenes of the frenzied, joyous mobs who saw him as their saviour. Well, not so very long after they came to see what that madman was really on about.

Hitler analogy. Original and brilliant and definitely not at all irrelevant. I don't doubt that you're a smart person.

Baylor · 30th July 2019, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by catsmate

Citations for your claims?

For Democrats running Baltimore

theprestige · 30th July 2019, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by WilliamSeger

Did you know that Cummings' district includes Columbia, MD, a "planned community" built in the 60s that is consistently rated as one of the top 10 places to live in the U.S.? Can you sum up the "intellectual argument" for why Trump chose the inner-city slums as representative of Cummings' district rather than Columbia?

I can.

According to Wikipedia, Columbia is about 55% white, with a median income around $100k. Nearby employers include major defense contractors and the US government.

So skilled knowledge workers in Cummings' district are doing pretty well for themselves. But I'm betting most of them arrived in Columbia, MD with a lot of advantages already. I think it makes more sense to look at how Cummings has done with the least-advantaged people in his district.

Incidentally, Columbia is about 25% black. Maybe that's Cummings' strategy for uplifting Baltimore's inner-city slums. The luckiest and hardest-working blacks get to emigrate to Columbia. Let's congratulate Cummings for this achievement!

---

Another approach would be to ask why Cummings hasn't yet done for his inner-city slums what has already been done for Columbia.

Baylor · 30th July 2019, 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by catsmate

I see you are doing nothing, as usual, to refute the points made.

No point was made. There never is. People like Dann rely on the authors of Wikipedia, Buzzfeed, and Vox to do the thinking for him. He doesn't have the confidence to explain to others how he sees the world. Without the blue checkmarks, the guy's lost.

sackett · 30th July 2019, 10:14 AM

Before they were Trumpfers, they lived in an atmosphere of muted resentment, muttering among themselves about how they were disregarded. Their race hatred was muted too, if not actually stifled.

Now, suddenly, they think they have a champion. They even feel, god help them, empowered. That's a heady feeling, especially for the rural proletarians who make up their hardest core.

They'll continue to fool themselves as long as they can, and to make as much noise and spectacle as possible -- and they'll be noticed by media that can't afford to ignore such grotesquery.

"Rural proletarians." Yes, my class, the lowest in the nation, maybe in the world. My people of origin.

Hell, I know them even better than baylor knows Baltimore.

ponderingturtle · 30th July 2019, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by sackett

Before they were Trumpfers, they lived in an atmosphere of muted resentment, muttering among themselves about how they were disregarded. Their race hatred was muted too, if not actually stifled.

Now, suddenly, they think they have a champion. They even feel, god help them, empowered. That's a heady feeling, especially for the rural proletarians who make up their hardest core.

They'll continue to fool themselves as long as they can, and to make as much noise and spectacle as possible -- and they'll be noticed by media that can't afford to ignore such grotesquery.

"Rural proletarians." Yes, my class, the lowest in the nation, maybe in the world. My people of origin.

Hell, I know them even better than baylor knows Baltimore.

Yep they are finally getting the racial politics they have been desiring for ages. Trump speaks with their voice. But of course you can't say they are racist.

theprestige · 30th July 2019, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Do you feel better now that you've had your two minutes hate?

Considering they've been doing two minutes hate, every two minutes, for almost twenty years, I'm thinking it doesn't actually make them feel better.

This "oh yeah? Well, now I'm calling you evil!" has the ring of a junkie searching for a vein between their toes. Some fresh injection point not yet scabbed or scarred over, where they can shoot up their fix.

Cain · 30th July 2019, 10:16 AM

I can learn to embrace bigotry and vulgarity, provided it keeps the Dems out of power.

WilliamSeger · 30th July 2019, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by ahhell

This is a pointless endeavor but.....

A. Its human nature to rally around your guy even when your guy is an *******. You progressives would do this and have done this in the past. Perhaps not someone who was such an ******* as Trump.

Perhaps?

Quote:

B. You've got folks saying that Trump's attack on Baltimore and Elijah Cummings is just as clearly racist as the "go back" comments and you wonder why 40 percent of America just ignores you when you say, "that's racist"?

That could be because they have no empathy whatsoever for the Americans who heard Trump say Cummings should "go back" to (implicitely his) black slums, where no human being would want to live, and clean that up before getting all uppity about investigating the rampant corruption in this administration. It got worse from there, with Trump accusing Cummings of graft, but in the process, Trump once again got away with saying something blatantly racist, then reacting to the reaction by saying something different, and his bootlicking sycophants saying, "See? That's not racist."

I asked another poster why Trump chose the inner-city slums as representative of Cummings' district instead of Columbia (or any one of many other neighborhoods), but haven't seen a response. You want to take a crack at that?

Quote:

C. Please do write off 40% of America as evil and stupid and see where that gets you. That attitude is, in my opinion, rather unprogressive and certainly unproductive.

I write them off as irredeemable, whatever their pathetic excuse. I also don't have any use for their advice on how Dems should campaign this cycle.

The Great Zaganza · 30th July 2019, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by Cain

I can learn to embrace bigotry and vulgarity, provided it keeps the Dems out of power.

..but it's so much easier to feel like the disenfranchised victim when they are!

varwoche · 30th July 2019, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by Apathia

I have friends who all in for Trump, and they unconsciously say bigoted crap, yet in another context they deplore racism. Their discernment and
self-awareness is weak. But I find more to them than just bigots. I cannot call them "evil," especially when one of them is more open-hearted and kind in some respects than myself. Not evil, not deplorable, the whole of who they are is like that proverbial lotus blossoming from mud bound roots.

Yes, it grieves me when friends say vile, bigoted, and moronic things, that evidence they don't really believe in Liberty and Equality but are ready to goose-step to whatever version Authoritarianism and White Nationalism will take in America. But I've seen in each one of them more than their bigotry. So I don't heap judgement on them....

First off, I know what you mean. The world isn't black and white.

That said, crocodiles care for their young.

Baylor · 30th July 2019, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife

Why do you refer to the word used in this name-calling as a "tag"? Is it supposed to make it sound like it was an example of something other than name-calling? Something subtle and insightful that people like you "get"? Would, say, "sleazebag" or "scumbag" or "douchebag" have "resonated" less?

LoL at typical "liberal" lack of self-awareness.

These people need to feel intellectual. They use bigly words and cite "reputable" sources like Vox and The Daily Beast. They use ****** prose like sackett.

Upchurch · 30th July 2019, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by ahhell

C. Please do write off 40% of America as evil and stupid and see where that gets you.

The last 30+ years of conservative media indicates it can get you quite a bit, actually.

Dr. Keith · 30th July 2019, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by Baylor

I wasn't going to post in this silly thread but now I feel compelled. This post is a perfect example of my problem with the "skeptic" community. And it's no surprise it was authored by the person who does this the most.

You're never going to understand the world by reading wikipedia, or any other of your stupid hyperlinks. You have to experience Baltimore to understand it and its problems. It doesn't matter how "reputable" your source is, you don't know **** about what you're saying. Nearly every post you make demonstrates your naivete, especially when posting in "USA Politics." Your endless hyperlinks don't mask this, if anything, they illuminate it.

You knew nothing about Baltimore before you went to its wikipedia page, you know even less about Baltimore now.

It is good to see that you have learned the highlighted finally, after all of your rantings about places you have never been based on spurious posts on right wing websites. It is a start.

ponderingturtle · 30th July 2019, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by varwoche

First off, I know what you mean. The world isn't black and white.

Yep which is why nothing is racist anymore.

Belz... · 30th July 2019, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz

Now that the other shoe has dropped and the GOP and its anointed leader have gone full bore racist in a throwback to the Anti-Immigration Era, it's time to come to the reality that is 21st Century US Politics.

I've missed the last couple of days of insanity so: how is that different than Trump and co. back in 2015?

ponderingturtle · 30th July 2019, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

I've missed the last couple of days of insanity so: how is that different than Trump and co. back in 2015?

It really isn't in any meaningful way, but it is just a bit more a typically racist statement, but really it is no different and is the kind of the republicans like.

varwoche · 30th July 2019, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Yep which is why nothing is racist anymore.

Do me a favor please. When you quote me as you generate straw men on industrial scale, don't omit the bits that negate the part that you quote.

30th July 2019, 08:13 AM	#42
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 8,486	Originally Posted by WilliamSeger Well, be careful of false equivalences, too. There's a difference between being prejudiced against someone with black skin and someone wearing a MAGA hat: Putting on a MAGA hat is a choice, as so is not taking it off, and some valid inferences can be drawn from that fact alone. I was thinking something along those lines as well. There should never be a reason to not call out racism and bigotry. That should be standard operating procedure for everyone. There is no comparison between despising the actions of Red Hats, and locking migrant children in cages.
	__________________ "Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

30th July 2019, 08:15 AM	#43
Shalamar Dark Lord of the JREF Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Somewhere Else Posts: 4,974	Originally Posted by plague311 I was thinking something along those lines as well. There should never be a reason to not call out racism and bigotry. That should be standard operating procedure for everyone. There is no comparison between despising the actions of Red Hats, and locking migrant children in cages. Locking American Citizen children in cages because they have brown skin.
	__________________ "The truth is out there. But the lies are inside your head."

30th July 2019, 08:21 AM	#44
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 50,466	Originally Posted by Apathia Be very careful that you aren't being bigoted yourself. But note this, for all your presentation of "Trumpistas" as being "evil," I don't feel you're a bigot. You're just indulging in some bigoted language because you're angry at and fed up with people who seem too dense to ever get what jerks they're being. Stop being so patronizing to them, they know what they are doing. That coastal elitism patronizing that they couldn't possibly understand what they are doing is doing them no favors either.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

30th July 2019, 08:28 AM	#45
Apathia Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 5,836	Originally Posted by WilliamSeger Well, be careful of false equivalences, too. There's a difference between being prejudiced against someone with black skin and someone wearing a MAGA hat: Putting on a MAGA hat is a choice, as so is not taking it off, and some valid inferences can be drawn from that fact alone. Alas! I suppose I'm close to being a "collaborator." Yes the MAGA cap tells me unpleasant things about the wearer, but I always show respect to what's beneath that persona. (Oh my God! I'm going Marianne Williamson!) If that individual verbally attacks me, depending on my mood and circumstances, I either wait patiently for the venting to end, or bow out and be on my way. Whenever I can I do call out the racism, but I try to do so without vilifying.
	__________________ "At the Supreme Court level where we work, 90 percent of any decision is emotional. The rational part of us supplies the reasons for supporting our predilections." Justice William O. Douglas "Humans aren't rational creatures but rationalizing creatures." Author Unknown

30th July 2019, 08:31 AM	#46
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 8,486	Originally Posted by Apathia Alas! I suppose I'm close to being a "collaborator." Yes the MAGA cap tells me unpleasant things about the wearer, but I always show respect to what's beneath that persona. (Oh my God! I'm going Marianne Williamson!) If that individual verbally attacks me, depending on my mood and circumstances, I either wait patiently for the venting to end, or bow out and be on my way. Whenever I can I do call out the racism, but I try to do so without vilifying. Why do you give that courtesy to someone who won't do the same for an entire race(s) of people?
	__________________ "Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

30th July 2019, 08:07 AM	#41
WilliamSeger Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 5,092	Originally Posted by Apathia Be very careful that you aren't being bigoted yourself. But note this, for all your presentation of "Trumpistas" as being "evil," I don't feel you're a bigot. You're just indulging in some bigoted language because you're angry at and fed up with people who seem too dense to ever get what jerks they're being. And I confess the times I've walked away from someone spewing hateful dreck, muttering to myself, "Moron!" Then on next encounter, I treat my "moron" with the respect due a sentient person, as opposed to a "Trumpista." Well, be careful of false equivalences, too. There's a difference between being prejudiced against someone with black skin and someone wearing a MAGA hat: Putting on a MAGA hat is a choice, as so is not taking it off, and some valid inferences can be drawn from that fact alone.

30th July 2019, 08:34 AM	#48
Apathia Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 5,836	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle Stop being so patronizing to them, they know what they are doing. That coastal elitism patronizing that they couldn't possibly understand what they are doing is doing them no favors either. As said elsewhere, I do call out the racism. There are two proverbs: "Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him." "Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he turn and rend you." I try to deal with fools as circumstances permit and in the most humane way possible. Of course I'd report to the police the perpetrator of a hate crime or anyone threatening to do a hate crime.
	__________________ "At the Supreme Court level where we work, 90 percent of any decision is emotional. The rational part of us supplies the reasons for supporting our predilections." Justice William O. Douglas "Humans aren't rational creatures but rationalizing creatures." Author Unknown

30th July 2019, 08:41 AM	#49
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 50,466	Originally Posted by Apathia As said elsewhere, I do call out the racism. There are two proverbs: "Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him." "Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he turn and rend you." I try to deal with fools as circumstances permit and in the most humane way possible. Of course I'd report to the police the perpetrator of a hate crime or anyone threatening to do a hate crime. And of course when it is the police oh well nothing to do. That is why the chants and telling the darkies to go back where they came from can't be racist, because that would be politically impossible as it would be saying that huge portions of the populace is fine with racism and has no problem supporting it. This is something that can never be said, even if true. So clearly you call out the racism but of course not exactly as racism or something because that would be impolite. Look this racism is the new normal for the GOP and we just have to accept that they are choosing to live the racist lifestyle.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

30th July 2019, 08:45 AM	#50
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 32,384	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Do you feel better now that you've had your two minutes hate? Are you suggesting that opposing Trump's racist and xenophobic policies are irrational?
	__________________ "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.

30th July 2019, 08:51 AM	#51
Apathia Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 5,836	Originally Posted by plague311 Why do you give that courtesy to someone who won't do the same for an entire race(s) of people? I get angry at people being bigoted and racist, but I don't hate them. I still respected and cared for my mother though she took her anti-Semitism with her to the grave. Especially when I'm in the physical presence of a person, or communicating with hir over whatever medium, I'm more than likely to meet hir as more than whatever persona ze's wearing or than my biases might dress hir with.
	__________________ "At the Supreme Court level where we work, 90 percent of any decision is emotional. The rational part of us supplies the reasons for supporting our predilections." Justice William O. Douglas "Humans aren't rational creatures but rationalizing creatures." Author Unknown

30th July 2019, 08:55 AM	#52
Apathia Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 5,836	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle At least you know they are too stupid too be able to be racist. Well, to be cynical and a little condescending here: As my grandmother used to say, "The Good Book tells us to be kind to dumb animals." Yes. there are some people in such a stupor that they aren't even racists.
	__________________ "At the Supreme Court level where we work, 90 percent of any decision is emotional. The rational part of us supplies the reasons for supporting our predilections." Justice William O. Douglas "Humans aren't rational creatures but rationalizing creatures." Author Unknown

30th July 2019, 09:00 AM	#53
Apathia Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 5,836	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle And of course when it is the police oh well nothing to do. That is why the chants and telling the darkies to go back where they came from can't be racist, because that would be politically impossible as it would be saying that huge portions of the populace is fine with racism and has no problem supporting it. This is something that can never be said, even if true. So clearly you call out the racism but of course not exactly as racism or something because that would be impolite. Look this racism is the new normal for the GOP and we just have to accept that they are choosing to live the racist lifestyle. Chants and telling the darkies to go back where they came from is racist. I never said it wasn't.
	__________________ "At the Supreme Court level where we work, 90 percent of any decision is emotional. The rational part of us supplies the reasons for supporting our predilections." Justice William O. Douglas "Humans aren't rational creatures but rationalizing creatures." Author Unknown

30th July 2019, 09:03 AM	#54
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 50,466	Originally Posted by Apathia Chants and telling the darkies to go back where they came from is racist. I never said it wasn't. But the people doing it aren't because they are clearly too stupid to be called racist, that is sure to win them over of course.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

30th July 2019, 09:05 AM	#55
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 14,687	I am somewhat heartened by the fact that Republicans are still fighting not to be called Racists. Plenty of right-wing parties all over the world embrace the description.
	__________________ So what are you going to do about it, huh? What would an intellectual do? What would Plato do?

30th July 2019, 09:08 AM	#56
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 8,486	Originally Posted by Apathia I get angry at people being bigoted and racist, but I don't hate them. I still respected and cared for my mother though she took her anti-Semitism with her to the grave. Especially when I'm in the physical presence of a person, or communicating with hir over whatever medium, I'm more than likely to meet hir as more than whatever persona ze's wearing or than my biases might dress hir with. That makes sense to me.
	__________________ "Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

30th July 2019, 09:29 AM	#57
ahhell Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 3,417	This is a pointless endeavor but..... A. Its human nature to rally around your guy even when your guy is an *****. You progressives would do this and have done this in the past. Perhaps not someone who was such an ***** as Trump. B. You've got folks saying that Trump's attack on Baltimore and Elijah Cummings is just as clearly racist as the "go back" comments and you wonder why 40 percent of America just ignores you when you say, "that's racist"? C. Please do write off 40% of America as evil and stupid and see where that gets you. That attitude is, in my opinion, rather unprogressive and certainly unproductive.
ahhell Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 3,417

30th July 2019, 09:33 AM	#58
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 50,466	Originally Posted by ahhell This is a pointless endeavor but..... A. Its human nature to rally around your guy even when your guy is an *****. You progressives would do this and have done this in the past. Perhaps not someone who was such an ***** as Trump. B. You've got folks saying that Trump's attack on Baltimore and Elijah Cummings is just as clearly racist as the "go back" comments and you wonder why 40 percent of America just ignores you when you say, "that's racist"? C. Please do write off 40% of America as evil and stupid and see where that gets you. That attitude is, in my opinion, rather unprogressive and certainly unproductive. Exactly nothing Trump can do or have done at his rallies can possibly be racist. That is just a simple fact there and trying to pretend that telling darkies to go back where they came from is suddenly racist is not going to stand in America.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

30th July 2019, 09:36 AM	#59
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 8,486	Originally Posted by ahhell This is a pointless endeavor but..... A. Its human nature to rally around your guy even when your guy is an *****. You progressives would do this and have done this in the past. Perhaps not someone who was such an *** as Trump. As you openly admit, not to this extent. There should be a limit and this POTUS has long since surpassed it. Originally Posted by ahhell B. You've got folks saying that Trump's attack on Baltimore and Elijah Cummings is just as clearly racist as the "go back" comments and you wonder why 40 percent of America just ignores you when you say, "that's racist"? Neat. Mind you, it's an extended attack that hasn't become anymore logical or reasonable. Those 40% of people, which you elude to below, are the people being racist. Who gives a if those people ignore us or not? Some of us, as American's, would like the rest of the world to know that 40% of our country do not represent all of us. Just like "they ignore us" when we say it, we ignore "them" crying about it. Though for saying you "ignore us", you sure are here giving "us" attention. Another thing Trump supporters suck at. Originally Posted by ahhell C. Please do write off 40% of America as evil and stupid and see where that gets you. That attitude is, in my opinion, rather unprogressive and certainly unproductive. I don't personally agree with most of the content of this post. I don't think they're evil, I just think they are retarding most of America, speaking of "unprogressive". Which isn't really a word, but I'm 0% shocked when people use made up words now. That's the world we live in. That being said, it's not unproductive at all. If something is antiquated, no longer useful, and actually harms the rest of society it would absolutely be productive to write them off. People who are racist or morons, ****, seriously there is no reason for them to exist. Racism itself flies in the face of science and logic. So, from the bottom of my heart. ** them.
	__________________ "Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss Last edited by plague311; 30th July 2019 at 09:38 AM.

30th July 2019, 09:45 AM	#60
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 49,693	Originally Posted by Foolmewunz Now that the other shoe has dropped and the GOP and its anointed leader have gone full bore racist in a throwback to the Anti-Immigration Era, it's time to come to the reality that is 21st Century US Politics. Up 'til a couple of weeks ago, the kindest interpretation one could give to Trump supporters was "They're probably decent folks down deep, they've just fallen for the long-game con and are too stupid to realize it". With every passing miscreant deed, it became harder and harder to keep excusing Trumpistas. We really wound up with the charitable explanation, "Well, they're just really stupid!" And it was charitable. Charitable because the alternative, which is becoming too apparent, is that they are evil. So, if you're one of the deplorable minority of actual supporters of Donald J. Trump, there's good news and bad news... The good news is that you're no longer considered stupid. For many of you that may be a lifetime first. The bad news is that you're an out-and-out bigot. The Trump campaign, the RNC, and any GOP candidate who doesn't stand up and condemn the latest round of bellicose racism from the White House are bigots. Dems who continue to pander to "good people on both sides" rhetoric are in the same group. The GOP has done away with the camouflage. They sit around and discuss whether Trump's latest bigot-speak was good or bad for the campaign. You see and hear the comments of the Apologia. "Well, he's working to his base because motivating them is important." No!!! Bigotry = Bad. Dividing the country along racial lines = Bad. If you can't see this, you are one of the remaining stupid ones. But you can see it. And if you approve of it, you're evil. Old-fashioned Brothers Grimm wicked witch evil. Not some post-modernist angst-y misunderstood good-intentioned person gone astray. Just plain damned evil. Democratic Underground figured this out almost twenty years ago. At this point, you're just pissing into an ocean of piss. Decades-old piss. Anyway, the progressive-conservative divide is pretty stale around here. Around here, the interesting divides are the progressive-progressive divides. There's the divide between advocates of political violence and advocates of rule of law. That's got some progressives calling other progressives racists and nazis already. You'll be calling each other evil soon enough. There's also the divide between the trans-skeptics and the trans-credulous. That's got some progressives calling other progressives bigots and transphobes. Again, the "evil" epithet can't be far behind. So. You adding "evil" to your thesaurus of hate isn't all that interesting. What pops my popcorn lately is the prospect of watching these blue-on-blue debates play out.

30th July 2019, 09:47 AM	#61
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Port Townsend, Washington Posts: 31,067	Regarding the thread title, I far prefer to refer to Trump and his followers as ignorant rather than stupid. "Stupid" implies low intelligence. That's an inborn trait. Ignorance is something you can do something about, and they don't, so it's worse.
	__________________ Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.

30th July 2019, 10:03 AM	#62
applecorped Banned Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 20,145	how deplorable
applecorped Banned Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 20,145

30th July 2019, 10:06 AM	#63
Baylor Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 8,394	Originally Posted by Lurch If you want something of an example of the super-fans cheering for their 'team' and captain, but later came to regret their blind worship, think a moment upon the early days of Hitler and his cabal. The scenes of the frenzied, joyous mobs who saw him as their saviour. Well, not so very long after they came to see what that madman was really on about. Hitler analogy. Original and brilliant and definitely not at all irrelevant. I don't doubt that you're a smart person.
Baylor Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 8,394

30th July 2019, 10:10 AM	#64
Baylor Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 8,394	Originally Posted by catsmate Citations for your claims? For Democrats running Baltimore
Baylor Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 8,394

30th July 2019, 10:10 AM	#65
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 49,693	Originally Posted by WilliamSeger Did you know that Cummings' district includes Columbia, MD, a "planned community" built in the 60s that is consistently rated as one of the top 10 places to live in the U.S.? Can you sum up the "intellectual argument" for why Trump chose the inner-city slums as representative of Cummings' district rather than Columbia? I can. According to Wikipedia, Columbia is about 55% white, with a median income around $100k. Nearby employers include major defense contractors and the US government. So skilled knowledge workers in Cummings' district are doing pretty well for themselves. But I'm betting most of them arrived in Columbia, MD with a lot of advantages already. I think it makes more sense to look at how Cummings has done with the least-advantaged people in his district. Incidentally, Columbia is about 25% black. Maybe that's Cummings' strategy for uplifting Baltimore's inner-city slums. The luckiest and hardest-working blacks get to emigrate to Columbia. Let's congratulate Cummings for this achievement! --- Another approach would be to ask why Cummings hasn't yet done for his inner-city slums what has already been done for Columbia.
	Last edited by theprestige; 30th July 2019 at 10:12 AM.

30th July 2019, 10:13 AM	#66
Baylor Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 8,394	Originally Posted by catsmate I see you are doing nothing, as usual, to refute the points made. No point was made. There never is. People like Dann rely on the authors of Wikipedia, Buzzfeed, and Vox to do the thinking for him. He doesn't have the confidence to explain to others how he sees the world. Without the blue checkmarks, the guy's lost.
Baylor Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 8,394

30th July 2019, 10:14 AM	#67
sackett Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 6,388	Before they were Trumpfers, they lived in an atmosphere of muted resentment, muttering among themselves about how they were disregarded. Their race hatred was muted too, if not actually stifled. Now, suddenly, they think they have a champion. They even feel, god help them, empowered. That's a heady feeling, especially for the rural proletarians who make up their hardest core. They'll continue to fool themselves as long as they can, and to make as much noise and spectacle as possible -- and they'll be noticed by media that can't afford to ignore such grotesquery. "Rural proletarians." Yes, my class, the lowest in the nation, maybe in the world. My people of origin. Hell, I know them even better than baylor knows Baltimore.
	__________________ If you would learn a man's character, give him authority. If you would ruin a man's character, let him seize power.

30th July 2019, 10:16 AM	#68
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 50,466	Originally Posted by sackett Before they were Trumpfers, they lived in an atmosphere of muted resentment, muttering among themselves about how they were disregarded. Their race hatred was muted too, if not actually stifled. Now, suddenly, they think they have a champion. They even feel, god help them, empowered. That's a heady feeling, especially for the rural proletarians who make up their hardest core. They'll continue to fool themselves as long as they can, and to make as much noise and spectacle as possible -- and they'll be noticed by media that can't afford to ignore such grotesquery. "Rural proletarians." Yes, my class, the lowest in the nation, maybe in the world. My people of origin. Hell, I know them even better than baylor knows Baltimore. Yep they are finally getting the racial politics they have been desiring for ages. Trump speaks with their voice. But of course you can't say they are racist.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

30th July 2019, 10:16 AM	#70
Cain Straussian Join Date: May 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 14,280	I can learn to embrace bigotry and vulgarity, provided it keeps the Dems out of power.
	__________________ April 13th, 2018: Ranb: I can't think of anything useful you contributed to a thread in the last few years.

30th July 2019, 10:18 AM	#71
WilliamSeger Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 5,092	Originally Posted by ahhell This is a pointless endeavor but..... A. Its human nature to rally around your guy even when your guy is an *****. You progressives would do this and have done this in the past. Perhaps not someone who was such an *** as Trump. Perhaps? Quote: B. You've got folks saying that Trump's attack on Baltimore and Elijah Cummings is just as clearly racist as the "go back" comments and you wonder why 40 percent of America just ignores you when you say, "that's racist"? That could be because they have no empathy whatsoever for the Americans who heard Trump say Cummings should "go back" to (implicitely his**) black slums, where no human being would want to live, and clean that up before getting all uppity about investigating the rampant corruption in this administration. It got worse from there, with Trump accusing Cummings of graft, but in the process, Trump once again got away with saying something blatantly racist, then reacting to the reaction by saying something different, and his bootlicking sycophants saying, "See? That's not racist." I asked another poster why Trump chose the inner-city slums as representative of Cummings' district instead of Columbia (or any one of many other neighborhoods), but haven't seen a response. You want to take a crack at that? Quote: C. Please do write off 40% of America as evil and stupid and see where that gets you. That attitude is, in my opinion, rather unprogressive and certainly unproductive. I write them off as irredeemable, whatever their pathetic excuse. I also don't have any use for their advice on how Dems should campaign this cycle.

30th July 2019, 10:19 AM	#72
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 14,687	Originally Posted by Cain I can learn to embrace bigotry and vulgarity, provided it keeps the Dems out of power. ..but it's so much easier to feel like the disenfranchised victim when they are!
	__________________ So what are you going to do about it, huh? What would an intellectual do? What would Plato do?

30th July 2019, 10:25 AM	#73
varwoche Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Puget Sound Posts: 15,437	Originally Posted by Apathia I have friends who all in for Trump, and they unconsciously say bigoted crap, yet in another context they deplore racism. Their discernment and self-awareness is weak. But I find more to them than just bigots. I cannot call them "evil," especially when one of them is more open-hearted and kind in some respects than myself. Not evil, not deplorable, the whole of who they are is like that proverbial lotus blossoming from mud bound roots. Yes, it grieves me when friends say vile, bigoted, and moronic things, that evidence they don't really believe in Liberty and Equality but are ready to goose-step to whatever version Authoritarianism and White Nationalism will take in America. But I've seen in each one of them more than their bigotry. So I don't heap judgement on them.... First off, I know what you mean. The world isn't black and white. That said, crocodiles care for their young.
	__________________ To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.

30th July 2019, 10:31 AM	#74
Baylor Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 8,394	Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife Why do you refer to the word used in this name-calling as a "tag"? Is it supposed to make it sound like it was an example of something other than name-calling? Something subtle and insightful that people like you "get"? Would, say, "sleazebag" or "scumbag" or "douchebag" have "resonated" less? LoL at typical "liberal" lack of self-awareness. These people need to feel intellectual. They use bigly words and cite "reputable" sources like Vox and The Daily Beast. They use ****** prose like sackett.
Baylor Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 8,394

30th July 2019, 10:42 AM	#75
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 32,384	Originally Posted by ahhell C. Please do write off 40% of America as evil and stupid and see where that gets you. The last 30+ years of conservative media indicates it can get you quite a bit, actually.
	__________________ "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.

30th July 2019, 10:43 AM	#76
Dr. Keith Not a doctor. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 22,581	Originally Posted by Baylor I wasn't going to post in this silly thread but now I feel compelled. This post is a perfect example of my problem with the "skeptic" community. And it's no surprise it was authored by the person who does this the most. You're never going to understand the world by reading wikipedia, or any other of your stupid hyperlinks. You have to experience Baltimore to understand it and its problems. It doesn't matter how "reputable" your source is, you don't know **** about what you're saying. Nearly every post you make demonstrates your naivete, especially when posting in "USA Politics." Your endless hyperlinks don't mask this, if anything, they illuminate it. You knew nothing about Baltimore before you went to its wikipedia page, you know even less about Baltimore now. It is good to see that you have learned the highlighted finally, after all of your rantings about places you have never been based on spurious posts on right wing websites. It is a start.
	__________________ Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God. He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.

30th July 2019, 10:49 AM	#77
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 50,466	Originally Posted by varwoche First off, I know what you mean. The world isn't black and white. Yep which is why nothing is racist anymore.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin